CHESS: Subsim team versus Letum - Page 7

UnderseaLcpl · 09-09-08, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Your name is on top of the list in my little green book now, Mister! This is what happens if little kids start fooling around without asking big daddy first. Maybe you think I'm preaching the sermon for everybody except just for you, but you will eat that truth I'm preaching with an extra-large XXL-spoon before we are finished here, even if it will be the last thing you'll eat in your life on this planet earth, dig it!

AYE AYE, SIR! .......IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN, SIR!...... YES, SIR!.....I WILL RESOVE THE SITUATION IMMEDIATELY SIR!

I'm for allowing sky to arbitrate this as he sees fit. His tutelage is important to me, so I will abide by whatever decision he thinks would be the most beneficial, given the lack of votes on this issue thus far.

Skybird · 09-10-08, 03:13 AM

Proceed from 6. Kd1 on.

UnderseaLcpl · 09-10-08, 06:50 AM

white 6: Kd1-d2

black 6: Nfx6-e4 pending.

Must remind myself to slow down and I will notice these things.

Skybird · 09-10-08, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Nfx6-e4 .

Knight Foxtrott takes Six to Echo Four...??? What kind of move should that be...???

Nf6xe4 is something you will not become happy with. Why?

kranz · 09-10-08, 08:54 AM

The answer is in one of my above posts

UnderseaLcpl · 09-10-08, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Nfx6-e4 .

Knight Foxtrott takes Six to Echo Four...??? What kind of move should that be...???

Nf6xe4 is something you will not become happy with. Why?

Move I posted by accident. I'm still thinking about it.

My little sister must have hit the enter key when I left for work. She loves buttons

It was supposed to be notes for my thoguht process.

Skybird · 09-10-08, 03:52 PM

The black queen and the white King stand in one line. Pieces on that line eventually can be removed, creating threats that way.

the white queen stands unguarded, and on the same diagonal like the black queen. Black can increase his pressure on that diagonal and again create threats.

both situations invite for being exploited through motives mentioned in rule #16 "Covered attacks". that motive should drive you.

RickC Sniper · 09-10-08, 05:07 PM

I am only a beginner\intermediate chess player, and this is a great thread. I am learning a lot.

I do have a question. Is there a defined point where the opening becomes mid-game and then also to end-game or are these gray areas?

In the game above for black, if I may, I like Bf8-e7. d5xe4 can soon be played. White must be wary of moving it's D pawn opening that file.
It adds pressure on White's queen (the knight at f6 can now move) and allows black to castle soon, getting a rook in play.

White would have little choice but to move his queen to a safer spot and lose time.

Skybird · 09-10-08, 05:42 PM

Although books on openings sooner or later come to an end in describing a variation, nevertheless I would consider the border between different phases of the game being fluent. Many openings are - in theory - so long that they reach far into midgame. Preparation to gain a promising endgame begins in midgame - sometimes even the opening's idea already is about favourable constellations (pawn phalanxes or majorities on one wing) in the endgame.

Profi players study all this a lot, so even if they do not calculate the variation tree let's say 20 moves in advance

, they nevertheless eventually already look into the mid and endgame when choosing their opening by considering the basic idea and typical position types resulting from it.

Profi players also calculate it differently than we usual mortals do. They tend to recognise constellation patterns of figures, not single figures themselves. Simple example, where you see and calculate with pawn f2, g2, h2, Rook f1 and King g1, they take the position as a whole and use that description of a short casteling as the basic unit to calculate with. The same they do fopr example with pawn phalanxes and typical positional patterns resulting from a given opening. Pattern recognition is very important in professional chess, and you cannot make it to that level of playing strength without having accumulated those many thousands of hours of playing that result in your mind seeing patterns instead of pieces and single moves. It is illusory to assume you could make it to that level by calculation alone, like you also do not become a good pianist by playing technique alone, but missing the heart to interpret the music and wgive it soul and emotion. Sould and emotion in chess is pattern recognition, so to speak.

Obviously it is also important in chess programming. Pattern recognition, and mathematical criterions by which to judge a given position or pattern are the bread and butter of it.

Your move is very good, btw. It develoeps a figure. It brings Black closer to casteling. It poses a covered thread to the queen. It supports further attack in the centre. It is more than White can handle with just two hands.

Could you give Lance a full possible variation? Ypou already outlined a plan: to play de4: any time soon. What replies are possible for White, and what threads? Which one do you expect? Could you counter White's attempt to hinder your plan?

RickC Sniper · 09-10-08, 06:41 PM

6........Bf8-e7
7. Qg3 ..attacking 2 undefended pawns at f7 and e5
7........ /O-O
8 Qxe5 d5xe4
9 Nc3xe4 bf5? or Qxe4 Rf8-e8

At this point I feel I've lost some momentum. I expect white to want to develop his bishop at c1 so he can move his king off the e or d files.

I have no chessboard set up and I failed to get arena to work so the board is difficult for me to "see" after this many moves.
Does arena require a chess engine to just set up 2 human players and make moves?

UnderseaLcpl · 09-10-08, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickC Sniper

In the game above for black, if I may, I like Bf8-e7. d5xe4 can soon be played. White must be wary of moving it's D pawn opening that file.
It adds pressure on White's queen (the knight at f6 can now move) and allows black to castle soon, getting a rook in play.

Hmmmm.....

After much consideration I have decided that I like that move
In this way, black can further the goal of eliminating white's bastion in the center, and the white queen remains at bay. White's knight at g1 vexxes me, however. Should I castle and move my f6 knight to press an attack on the center, he is in a position to support an attack by the white queen on h7. Potentially only 3 moves away in fact, after white moves his queen to h5 to evade my bishop. Admittedly a vague fear, but my main concern is that such a ploy by white will interfere with black's advance and possibly reverse the situation. As such, I'm not liking the idea of castling at the moment, but have not ruled it out.

Other than that, good show Rick! Thanks to the suggestions of people like you (and sky, of course) I get a little closer each day to my ultimate goal of being able to start the thread : UnderseaLcpl vs. Skybird.

Bf8-e7, then?

Skybird · 09-11-08, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I get a little closer each day to my ultimate goal of being able to start the thread : UnderseaLcpl vs. Skybird.

"What...???"

Letum · 09-11-08, 10:31 AM

Move 7

Qh4-g3

Skybird · 09-11-08, 03:20 PM

Now, gentlemen, things get exciting. A tactical exchange is inevitable, and it could directly lead into a decisive frontal attack, maybe.

Precise calculation of all possible variations now is of paramount importance. Take all time that you need, but do it thoroughly.

Keep written notes of your variations, if you must. keep them included in the record, if you use Arenea and the software allows that (I assume that, since it is a standard function nowadays). When I play it is not rare that I have 6 or 7 variations included in my record-keeping - and that is for every single move, or every knot of the variation tree.

Chess is the ideal game for octopussies and spiders: the more eyes and arms you have, the better.

RickC Sniper · 09-11-08, 03:24 PM

Please disregard my suggested move
9......../Qe5xe4 That move is a blunder that I can see now that I have a board set up

Quote:

Potentially only 3 moves away in fact, after white moves his queen to h5 to evade my bishop.

His Queen could not have moved to h5 because ....../Nf6xf5

Remember Sky pointing out that your Queen stares down the same file as his King? His King cannot castle away to safety. Cracking open that D file should be priority.

Possible moves: after 7. Qh4-g3
pawn d5xe4 ....begins to open the d file
Be7-b4 .....pinning his knight at c3 so that after d5xe4 he cannot retaliate with Nc3xe4.
O-O .....beware of his possible response ..../Bc1-h6 !!
Nf6xe4 ....attacking his queen. Then if Nc3xe4 ..d5xe4 and you are very close to an open d file.
Bc8-g4 ....putting him in check

But...which move should be played first?

edited after repositioning white's king.

09-10-08, 03:13 AM	#92
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,670 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Proceed from 6. Kd1 on. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-10-08, 06:50 AM	#93
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	white 6: Kd1-d2 black 6: Nfx6-e4 pending. Must remind myself to slow down and I will notice these things. __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

09-10-08, 03:52 PM	#97
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,670 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The black queen and the white King stand in one line. Pieces on that line eventually can be removed, creating threats that way. the white queen stands unguarded, and on the same diagonal like the black queen. Black can increase his pressure on that diagonal and again create threats. both situations invite for being exploited through motives mentioned in rule #16 "Covered attacks". that motive should drive you. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-10-08, 05:07 PM	#98
RickC Sniper Undetectable Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,221 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	I am only a beginner\intermediate chess player, and this is a great thread. I am learning a lot. I do have a question. Is there a defined point where the opening becomes mid-game and then also to end-game or are these gray areas? In the game above for black, if I may, I like Bf8-e7. d5xe4 can soon be played. White must be wary of moving it's D pawn opening that file. It adds pressure on White's queen (the knight at f6 can now move) and allows black to castle soon, getting a rook in play. White would have little choice but to move his queen to a safer spot and lose time. __________________ Support Subsim http://www.subsim.com/store.html Last edited by RickC Sniper; 09-10-08 at 05:18 PM.

09-10-08, 05:42 PM	#99
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,670 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Although books on openings sooner or later come to an end in describing a variation, nevertheless I would consider the border between different phases of the game being fluent. Many openings are - in theory - so long that they reach far into midgame. Preparation to gain a promising endgame begins in midgame - sometimes even the opening's idea already is about favourable constellations (pawn phalanxes or majorities on one wing) in the endgame. Profi players study all this a lot, so even if they do not calculate the variation tree let's say 20 moves in advance , they nevertheless eventually already look into the mid and endgame when choosing their opening by considering the basic idea and typical position types resulting from it. Profi players also calculate it differently than we usual mortals do. They tend to recognise constellation patterns of figures, not single figures themselves. Simple example, where you see and calculate with pawn f2, g2, h2, Rook f1 and King g1, they take the position as a whole and use that description of a short casteling as the basic unit to calculate with. The same they do fopr example with pawn phalanxes and typical positional patterns resulting from a given opening. Pattern recognition is very important in professional chess, and you cannot make it to that level of playing strength without having accumulated those many thousands of hours of playing that result in your mind seeing patterns instead of pieces and single moves. It is illusory to assume you could make it to that level by calculation alone, like you also do not become a good pianist by playing technique alone, but missing the heart to interpret the music and wgive it soul and emotion. Sould and emotion in chess is pattern recognition, so to speak. Obviously it is also important in chess programming. Pattern recognition, and mathematical criterions by which to judge a given position or pattern are the bread and butter of it. Your move is very good, btw. It develoeps a figure. It brings Black closer to casteling. It poses a covered thread to the queen. It supports further attack in the centre. It is more than White can handle with just two hands. Could you give Lance a full possible variation? Ypou already outlined a plan: to play de4: any time soon. What replies are possible for White, and what threads? Which one do you expect? Could you counter White's attempt to hinder your plan? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-10-08, 08:54 AM	#95
kranz The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,430 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The answer is in one of my above posts

09-10-08, 06:41 PM	#100
RickC Sniper Undetectable Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,221 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	6........Bf8-e7 7. Qg3 ..attacking 2 undefended pawns at f7 and e5 7........ /O-O 8 Qxe5 d5xe4 9 Nc3xe4 bf5? or Qxe4 Rf8-e8 At this point I feel I've lost some momentum. I expect white to want to develop his bishop at c1 so he can move his king off the e or d files. I have no chessboard set up and I failed to get arena to work so the board is difficult for me to "see" after this many moves. Does arena require a chess engine to just set up 2 human players and make moves? __________________ Support Subsim http://www.subsim.com/store.html Last edited by RickC Sniper; 09-10-08 at 07:15 PM.

09-11-08, 10:31 AM	#103
Letum Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: York - UK Posts: 6,079 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Move 7 Qh4-g3 __________________

09-11-08, 03:20 PM	#104
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,670 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Now, gentlemen, things get exciting. A tactical exchange is inevitable, and it could directly lead into a decisive frontal attack, maybe. Precise calculation of all possible variations now is of paramount importance. Take all time that you need, but do it thoroughly. Keep written notes of your variations, if you must. keep them included in the record, if you use Arenea and the software allows that (I assume that, since it is a standard function nowadays). When I play it is not rare that I have 6 or 7 variations included in my record-keeping - and that is for every single move, or every knot of the variation tree. Chess is the ideal game for octopussies and spiders: the more eyes and arms you have, the better. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.