Let's Butt Heads With An Add_on

[CapnScurvy]

I have some questions for those that have already purchased the Add-On. Can you tell me what are the mast heights of the Carriers Hiryu, Shokaku, the DD Mutsuki, the Large Minelayer, and the merchant Tug? I selected these partly at random, and partly because they (like others) have incorrect mast heights listed within the Recognition Manual. It doesn’t matter if you give me the figures either in Meters or Feet, but I would like to know if the problem of correct manual range finding has been addressed with the dollar’s you have shelled out for the purchase. It’s the Scottish background in me that prevents my paying for something that just isn’t worth the simple reach into my pocket.

The stock figures are:

Hiryu 31.0 meters
101.7 feet

Shokaku 29.0m
95.1ft

Mutsuki 32.0m
75.5ft

Large
Minelayer 21.0m
68.9ft

Tug 22.8m
78.8ft

I’m wondering if these figures are different, now that you have the latest paid-for patch? I'm not trying to make you mad, I really want to know. I don't have the patch.



OK, OK there is a point here that I’m going to make, whether the 1.5 patch did a darn thing to correct some of the in game problems since it’s release almost a year ago, now or not. To best illustrate my point I have pictures!!!! Yeaaaa……. let’s look at the pretty pictures!!!! This game is full of pretty pictures.


First let’s look at the Hiryu. For those of you that read my “discussion” section of the “Manual Targeting Ship Centered, Accuracy Fix” (it’s floating around on this forum somewhere) I pointed out the mast height for the Hiryu was way off, gave you some figures to tell you what was what, but I didn’t illustrate the point. Below you will find the stationary Hiryu in one of my test setups at an actual distance of 1377 meters (1506 yards) from a stationary sub. The stock mast height of 31.0m (101.7ft) is showing in the Recognition Manual (RM). You’ll notice that a range of 1168 meters (1277 yards) is showing in the Position Keeper (PK). (I had just used the Stadimeter to find range at the top of the flag which I assume is the correct mast position the developers refer to for manual range finding). That’s 209 meters (229 yards) off!!!! How can you hit the target with a torpedo when the in game manual range finding calculations are so far off!!! I suppose that’s why you need to “brush whiskers” with the target before firing, get as close as you can get.





The next picture shows the Hiryu with a corrected mast height of 36.4 meters (119.4 ft) showing in the RM. The PK is showing the manual found range to be 1372 meters (1500 yards) that’s more like it!! That’s just 5 meters (6 yards) off of the actual distance.







So my first question can be answered amongst yourselves, is the Hiryu showing a mast height of 36.4 meters or 119.4 feet in the RM? If it is, then maybe you should stop reading now, and feel content that you paid for a patch that’s worth its price. You can go ahead and gloat in a reply, I will stand corrected. If it didn’t, then go ahead and read on to see how you can correct the error.

The next picture has my Maxoptics2 (original creation of WernerSobe) in use (that’s why the image is magnified, makes the mast top much easier to see, doesn’t it?). To get a correct measurement for the Hiryu to read at the 1506 yard distance using the stock 101.7 ft mast height, you have to put the Stadimeter image down below the flag a bit. Go head and remember the approximate place, you can use it next time you run into the Hiryu. Heck, anywhere down there in that area is better than what the top of the mast gives us.






This next picture is of the DD Matsuki with a stock game mast height of 75.5 ft (23.0 meters) the PK has a range of 1464 yards showing. The actual distance is 1499 yards. That’s a difference of 35 yards. Not bad, but I wouldn’t want to take a swing at this bad boy and miss with the first punch. I think he might come looking for you in a trot with prejudice and malice.





The next picture shows the corrected mast height of 77.8 ft (23.7m) and the actual manual found Stadimeter range to be 1498 yards. That’s just a yard off of what it needs to give this guy a bloody nose.






The next picture is of the Okinoshima, Large Minelayer. To keep this short I’ve only added the corrected change in mast height of 93.9 ft to the RM, from the stock height of 68.9. That’s 25 feet difference in mast height (no typo error here). The stock mast height gave a range to target of 1114 yards, except for the fact that the ship was actually sitting at 1518 yards away. Let’s see, if I count on my toes too, that’s a 404 yard difference!!!! You really didn’t want to hit this guy did you? The below picture shows a stadimeter found range to target of 1518 yards with my corrected mast height. Ummmm now the correct mast height you paid for in the 1.5 patch is 93.9 ft (28.6m) right???





Next, I’m bringing up the Tug. Seems there’s a lot of modders that are using the tug to make a new enemy sub chaser. TMO has it, RSRDC has one. They call them different names, but the basic ship model is the same. So below is the Tug with the stock mast height of 74.8 ft (22.8m). With the stadimeter found range to be 1442 yards showing in the PK. The actual distance to target is 1500 yards, that’s a difference of 58 yards (almost the length of the tug).






Now, with the corrected mast height of 77.8 ft (23.7m) in the RM, the found manual range is 1498 yards, just 2 yards off of dead on.






Lastly, the carrier Shokaku is sitting at an actual distance of 1384 meters (1513 yards) from the sub. The stock mast height is 29.0 meters. The manual found range is 1231 meters, that’s a 153 meter difference from what it should be.





This next picture has one of my versions of the Ship Centered, Accuracy Fix mod installed with the mast height correction of 32.5 meters in the Recognition Manual. The difference between this picture and the last is just eye candy. The manual found range is 1387 meters. That’s just 3 meters off of what the actual distance should be.




My point is simple, if these corrections have not been made to a product you just paid money for, then the eye candy is what you bought. Enjoy using the green triangle to tell yourself when to fire the red button thingy. If you want to use the Stadimeter to find manual range then complain to the guys that took your money. Also, find someone who can give you the correct figures you’ll need. I’ve just given you a few correct mast heights, free of charge of course. I’ve had a mod released to correct this problem going back to the first of June ‘07.


If the corrections were made, then by all means tell me so. I can stand it. I’ll put my tail between my legs and whimper like a pup. I may even dig down and find 10 bucks for the improvements. Sometimes though, the best things in life are free!!

[CapnScurvy]

I've added the carrier Shokaku to the list of inaccurate measurements in the above post. Not that it's the only one left, it's just I told you I would yesterday.

[jimbob]

Hello.

Can you tell me what are the mast heights of the Carriers Hiryu, Shokaku, the DD Mutsuki, the Large Minelayer, and the merchant Tug?

In my reg.manual I got these:

Hiryu - the same 31m / 101.7ft
Shokaku - the same 29m / 95.1
Mutsuki - the same 23m / 75.5
Large Minelayer - the same 21m / 68.9ft
Tug Boat - different 22.8m / 74.8ft

Pic of Tug with my cleaned up optics:



So then the shootout:

With manual targeting system OFF got these distances:
Hiryu 1431m / 1565y
Shokaku 1432m / 1566y
Mutsuki 1274m / 1393y
Large Minelayer 1389m / 1518y
Tug Boat 881m / 963y

And with manual targeting system when shooting for the flag and the mast:

Hiryu Carrier autotargeting:


flag 1462y:


mast 1504y:


I got pics and info of those other boats too:

Shokaku Carrier
flag 1524y
mast 1626y

Mutsuki Destroyer
flag 2321y
mast 1488y


Large Minelayer
flag 1514y
mast 1232y

Tug Boat
flag 1224y
mast 1009y

But I got tired makin jpg's and uploading to imagehost so here's all the
15 ingame screenshots (1280x1024 bitmaps, 18.91MB zip) click to download.


And here's the mission I made for this if anyone is interested:

SH4 1.5 T1 DistanceTestbench

For Silent Hunter 4 - Wolves of the Pacific Uboat Missions
That is, stock version patched up to 1.5
	  
Use Jonesoft Generic Mod Enabler (JSGME) 
http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/software/products.html	  
or extract manually to
\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\SingleMissions folder.

#########################################################

FAQ:

---------------------------------------------------------

lol wut?

A german singlemission where the only goal is to measure distances.


---------------------------------------------------------

Why?

Gather intelligence for CapnScurvy:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=132048

---------------------------------------------------------

When?
	
2. March 2008

---------------------------------------------------------

Where?

My filefront place:
http://hosted.filefront.com/jimboblolwut/2183515

---------------------------------------------------------

Credits?
Duh...
	
---------------------------------------------------------

How?
Missioneditor.
	
---------------------------------------------------------

Pics or it didn't happen?

Yes, screenshots at:
http://files.filefront.com/Testbench+jimbob+shootoutszip/;9743769;/fileinfo.html


---------------------------------------------------------

..click to download the SH4 1.5 T1 DistanceTestbench mission.

Hopefully my shootout has some of the info you wanted.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Hopefully my shootout has some of the info you wanted.

HELL YA!!!

Thanks jimbob for getting back to me, after 200 onlookers to this thread I was wondering if anyone was going to bother. Pissed some of them off for various reasons you know. Too long a post, too much information to comprehend, too many realizing that the patch I paid for still has not corrected some basic stuff.

I do appreciate you telling me because I have no desire to purchase the patch if it hadn't fixed this problem of incorrect manual range finding. If I were you though I'd lay low for a while, their's guys out here that will think your just feeding the fire.

They would rather believe the inaccuracy of the game files are just the developers version of the "fog of war contributing to the overall simulation of real world conditions and events". I say bull to that theory!!! Any captain worth his salt, who found the Ship Identification Manual (ONI whatever version) not correct in it's published figures would have his tale heard back at headquarters as soon as he got back!! If the CO wouldn't listen to changing the published figures because of your story of missing targets by unacceptable amounts, you can bet your beer he told it to every other captain back at the officers club. And they would act accordingly on their next patrol. THAT GENTLEMEN IS REAL WORLD SIMULATION!!

You did a great job of expressing your point jimbob, I commend you on the use of the pictures!! A chip off the old block. Since I see the mast heights wern't changed, it's not supprising that your manual found range figures are not any better at being on target than mine. That's a pity.

So let's see, you've got:
Hiryu missing by 103 yards
Shokaku by only 42 yards Hmmmm,.... you didn't have your thumb on the scale did you?!?
Mutsuki missing by 95 yards
Okinoshima by 286 yards
the tug missing by 46 yards

Overall that's just about the same ratio as I have. I do confess that manual range gathering is a bit subjective in that it's a perspective thing. Every one of us is hampered by the type of screen resolution your using, the kind of video card that displays the image, your idea of where the top of the mast should be. Whether you twitch the mouse just the slightest bit when you left click it, throwing the bottom of the Stadimeter up or down the the different pixel lines. (Over on the regular SubSim SH4 forum site I explained, under this same post heading, how each individual pixel line can easily make a 10 yard difference +/_ in range calculations). Even if you're using a mod that changes the visual appearence of the sea or environment, the inability of being able to correctly "see" the waterline of the Stadimeter image will cause incorrect marked readings.

I do have one point to make about the flag for marking range though. I used it for the carriers only, simply because it stands to reason that a flag needs a mast to hold itself up. Logically, the top of the mast has to be at the top of the flag. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I see it. However, the game manual calls for the top of the mast to be used for all ship Stadimeter readings so, unless the flags are calibrated to be accurate for each ship (which could be done in a mod) stick to the tallest mast you can find for marking range.

Thanks again jimbob, you'll make a fine Captain in this man's navy!!!!

[DrBeast]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

HELL YA!!!

Thanks jimbob for getting back to me, after 200 onlookers to this thread I was wondering if anyone was going to bother. Pissed some of them off for various reasons you know. Too long a post, too much information to comprehend, too many realizing that the patch I paid for still has not corrected some basic stuff.

Well, there are some of us who haven't purchased the add-on (and don't intend to, either).

[castorp345]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Any captain worth his salt, who found the Ship Identification Manual (ONI whatever version) not correct in it's published figures would have his tale heard back at headquarters as soon as he got back!!

'just like the way BUORD listened to all the report-backs about the torpedo troubles... they sure were quick in remedying those problems that everyone was complaining about.
god bless military efficiency!
:p

[CapnScurvy]

DrBeast, get back to your school work!!!

You'll learn nothing here by drinking this demon rum!!!

[DrBeast]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

DrBeast, get back to your school work!!!

You'll learn nothing here by drinking this demon rum!!!

Actually, it's laboratory research
And hey, if a Beast won't drink the demon rum, who will?