Who Started World War II?

[Fahnenbohn]

The only little problem is that all my documentation and many sources are in french. So, should I translate them first ? This can take a lot of time, because there are more than 30 pages (in small print) to translate just for our subject ... and 30 more pages for WWI origins ...

[Tchocky]

You don't have the power to put him in prison, but his government does.

Meh.

He seems to know that such laws exist and it's not our fault if he breaks them. I think the laws are stupid but it's still my fault if I run afoul of them.

Listen to what he has to say and if you disagree with him, then prove him wrong, IF you want an open and honest discussion.

I'd engage honestly if I thought he was doing the same thing.

Nothing about the way this thread has gone suggests that he is. I see a lot of highly selective historical reading, blatant ignorance of topics he professes a high degree of familiarity with, and a mindset that assumes anyone with contradictory information has been brainwashed or lied to.

As soon as other posters start engaging (Jimbuna, Oberon), suddenly there are "documents" that back up his nebulous claims, but only available in French.

Then it's a mystical hour-long "documentary" that is sadly only available in French.

Next - instead of arguing in support of his thesis suddenly the only thing we're supposed to do is prove him wrong.

Then he decides that we're all off-topic and he'll only continue in French. If we want him to explain we should post in French.

Of course being off-topic wasn't a problem when discussing conflicts that happened during the war between the Kriegsmarine and the Royal Navy.

You cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason their way into.

I have zero interest in having a full and frank discussion here. There are better ways to spend one's time.


This might make me a bad forum user, but that is waaaaay down the priority list.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

The only little problem is that all my documentation and many sources are in french. So, should I translate them first ? This can take a lot of time, because there are more than 30 pages (in small print) to translate just for our subject ... and 30 more pages for WWI origins ...

Here's a bright idea.

Post the names of the books you are translating so we can have a quick look for English versions/summaries.

Or the titles/authors of the documents.


Those wonderful documents.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by August

Well I question whether merely broaching a subject can actually get someone jailed but I guess it all depends on how it's broached right?

Not at all. Here in France, it's literally forbidden to express our opinions on certain historical subjects. Even historians are brought to justice. There is an OFFICIAL thesis (based on a contradictory story, by the bye), and you MUST believe in it.

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Those laws do a lot of damage because instead of standing up and being ridiculed for their ludicrous beliefs these sorts can pretend that Big Brother is stifling the truth.

Yes, exactly. But it is the only way to prevent a debate to take place.
If revisionist thesis on Jews' extermination were wrong, it would be easy for historians to organize a debate in which they would eventually ridicule the liars. But what happens is the opposite ! The revisionist historians are asking for a debate for years, and the only answer is always : this historical fact is incontestable. So I say : we have the right to request proof of the official historians' competence prior to believe them. They have to debate... but now, it is forbidden ... strange, isn't it ?

[Tchocky]

Persecution is not validation of your premise.

Authors/titles?

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

The only little problem is that all my documentation and many sources are in french. So, should I translate them first ? This can take a lot of time, because there are more than 30 pages (in small print) to translate just for our subject ... and 30 more pages for WWI origins ...

You might have to use a translation engine. I doubt if many on this particular forum can read french (pauvres sauvages).
It is primarily an english speaking group.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Here's a bright idea.

Post the names of the books you are translating so we can have a quick look for English versions/summaries.

Or the titles/authors of the documents.

OK, I'm preparing this.

Just let me some time. This is a serious matter.

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[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Persecution is not validation of your premise.

I agree. But persecution is not justified neither.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

I agree.

No you don't.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

If revisionist thesis on Jews' extermination were wrong, it would be easy for historians to organize a debate in which they would eventually ridicule the liars. But what happens is the opposite !

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

No you don't.

I agree because in theory you are right.

But in the facts, that's what happens in France, because persecution is the ONLY answer to the revisionist's thesis, which is far from ridiculous and light. Some historians have worked over 50 years of their life on the subject.

[Tchocky]

EDIT - It appears you've edited your post quite a bit.

Nevermind.

[Fahnenbohn]

Here is the bibliography of the study on the origin of WWI.

I have not completed the one about WWII, let me some time. I haven't reproduced all the documents here, only the most important ones.

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Gustave Hervé, Nouvelle Histoire d’Europe (éd. de « La Victoire », Paris, 1931)

Georg Pfeilschifter, La culture allemande, le catholicisme et la guerre (éd. C.L. van Langenhuysen, Pays-Bas, 1916)

Henri Pozzi, Les Coupables (Éditions Européennes, Paris, 1935)

Henri Pozzi, La guerre revient (éd. Paul Berger, Paris, 1933)

[H. Pozzi], Black Hand over Europe, F. Mott and C°, [Londres, 1935]

P. Benaerts, L’unité allemande. 1806-1938 (éd. Armand Collin, 1948 [première édition de 1939])

Serge Cosseron et Philippe Faverjon, L’Europe de 1815 à nos jours (éd. La Manufacture, Besançon, 1991)

Raymond Poincaré, Les Balkans en feu (éd. Plon, Paris, réédition de 1945)

R. Poincaré, L’union sacrée (éd. Plon, Paris, 1927)

D. Stéfanovitch : Souvenirs et documents d’un diplomate serbe, manuscrit à paraître en 1937

Édouard Bénès, Détruisez l’Autriche-Hongrie, publiée à Paris en 1916

D. S. Sazonov, Les années fatales. Souvenirs de S. Sazonov. (éd. Payot, 1927) [D. S. Sazonov, Sechs Schwere Jahre, Berlin, 1927]

Maurice Paléologue, La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre (éd. Plon, Paris, 1922)

Le Livre Rouge austro-hongrois. Pièces diplomatiques concernant les antécédents de la guerre 1914 (Vienne, 1915)

British Documents on the Origins of the War [1898-1914], [London : His Majesty’s Stationery Office, 1926], vol. XI

Un Livre Noir. Diplomatie d’avant guerre d’après les documents des archives russes (éd. La Librarie du Travail, s. d.)

Le Livre blanc allemand. Traduction autorisée. Documents sur les préliminaires de la guerre augmentés de documents nouveaux

Archives diplomatiques serbes, Présidence du Conseil, visas Pacù-Pachicht, case 19, dossier 11/B, folio 7 : « Pétersbourg », 2/15 juillet à 18/31 juillet 1914.

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[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Do please share these "facts" I've probably never heard about.

Of course you have never heard of them, pretty obviously you are not wearing a tinfoil hat or are deliberatley not taking your medication like some other "person".

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

If revisionist thesis on Jews' extermination were wrong, it would be easy for historians to organize a debate in which they would eventually ridicule the liars.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

First of all, as I've said more that once, this thread is about the claim that it was Britain and not Germany who started the war. Anything beyond that is off-topic, and I'll see that it's excluded and removed.

I'm letting your post stand in full, but this is your unofficial warning. I made sure the thread had the title it needed, and it will stay on that topic.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Tell me, would you consider the atrocites committed at Oradour-sur-Glane in June 44 to be a part of post-war propaganda?

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Absolutely.
An investigation was also carried out on this point.