Senate report on CIA torture techniques released

[MH]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

How many people in that report were said to have died from torture?

In every war it is known a number of people fighting it lose their sense of direction and go off the reservation embarrassing their fellow countrymen. These should by all means face the consequences for their actions.

But what blows my mind is the very same names and politicians busting on the CIA for what I believe are a few loose cannons are the same ones who think it their solemn duty to launch drone strikes which have killed more than suspected terrorists.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4654825.html


We are in a world of (poop)

The reason is that this torture issue is very much political issue in USA and not only... and some people need promotions while others don't want to get fired or put on trial.
I believe it is similar case with this report , while it may be correct in the context it was written it is not entirely accurate and objective on the issue.
It very much serves ideology of current administration.
Not that I personally justify mass torture , the USA as it seems lost the proportions a bit.

Such statements are entirely bogus, of course. All of them presuppose that torture works. There's never any argument to the effect that the torture subject will happily feed you a diet of red herrings for a few hours that will actually divert resources away from finding the bomb.....

Again... the issue is about the portability of acquiring information.
I believe that the people who do this kind of stuff are not less smart that you and take certain things into consideration -including goose chase.
What do you mean by wasting resources?

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

That sounds just plain disgusting. Sugarcoating of it's best.
They take good care of the subject, nothing wrong going on here, move along...*scream in the background*

If torture is permitted (or it has to be not only banned, but that ban uniformly enforced), then I believe that well executed interrogation without permanent damage (and thus without the likelihood of the suspect dying during it), with proper legal process (ie such methods are specifically sanctioned, clear rules exist and they are uniformly enforced, in a way not dissimilar with the arrest), with compensation and rehabilitation should the suspect be found to be not guilty, is the way to go.

Otherwise, without regulation (or uniformly enforced ban), what you get is a dysfunctional (doesn't get the results) and open to misuse (because it is done secretly, without clear cut rules) instrument.

[Mittelwaechter]

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/P...15397&LangID=E

We'll see...

[Dread Knot]

The question of whether or not torture works is similar to asking whether germ warfare or poison/nerve gas munitions are effective. It's a moot point, since they are all outlawed by the laws of human decency.

Maybe I am hopelessly naive, but it seems to me relying on torture to find a ticking time bomb makes about as much sense as doing an Indian rain dance to save a burning building.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

The question of whether or not torture works is similar to asking whether germ warfare or poison/nerve gas munitions are effective. It's a moot point, since they are all outlawed by the laws of human decency.

Maybe I am hopelessly naive, but it seems to me relying on torture to find a ticking time bomb makes about as much sense as doing an Indian rain dance to save a burning building.

Are nuclear weapons outlawed?

Then one must specify as to which measures are permitted. For example what is "torture"? Is the use of drugs ethical? And so on and so forth.

[Bilge_Rat]

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/s...sscistudy3.pdf

Here is the link to the minority report if anyone is interested. When Democrats and Republicans can't even agree on basic facts and each release contradictory reports, it is hard to see this as more than a political exercise. If it was a joint report with bi-partisan support, I would take it more seriously.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Are nuclear weapons outlawed?

Then one must specify as to which measures are permitted. For example what is "torture"? Is the use of drugs ethical? And so on and so forth.

No. But I haven't seen one fired in anger in quite some time. They are also subject to some stringent treaties regarding their numbers and testing.

When it comes to treaties, the US is a signatory to the UN convention against torture which puts us in a sticky spot.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

No. But I haven't seen one fired in anger in quite some time. They are also subject to some stringent treaties regarding their numbers and testing.

When it comes to treaties, the US is a signatory to the UN convention against torture which puts us in a sticky spot.

Hence why I argue either for banning it (torture, and more importantly - enforcing this ban) or regulating it.

You would note that PRC and Central Asia states (and others, including USSR and it's successor - Russia) signed the very same convention. It isn't working.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Maybe I am hopelessly naive, but it seems to me relying on torture to find a ticking time bomb makes about as much sense as doing an Indian rain dance to save a burning building.

Not "maybe", but for sure, if you mean that comparison serious.

Better take the scenario that I described, from the German criminal case that somehow is equal to the one describe din Dirty Harry II or IV, I think.

What would you do in that scenario? Dop myou semnetence the victim of the crime to suffocate in order to not touch the criminal? Or do you accept the lesser evil: handing over the criminal in a bit to for keeping the chance for his victim to survive?

I would chose the latter. The first option would be inhumane, cynical and tokenistic. The victim's interest to live rates infinitely higher than the wish of the criminal to see it dying just to piss the police and next of kin. There is no equality of rights and onterests in that scenario, but the one side - the victim - has all rights and all interests, and the other side - the criminal - has zero, rien, nada interests and rights in that scenario.

Putting that in doubt is not just like questioning that the victim of a physical attack has the right to defend itself, or to kill an attacker who tried to kill the victim - its even worse, its like demanding the victim to accept getting killed just so to not violate the physical integrity of the attacker.

That would not be just cynical, or inhumane. That would be malicious.

[Oberon]

But they're the bad guys, remember?

"All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

[Skybird]

Personally, I find the amount of violence conducted in the name of many regimes in the second and third world, in the ME, Africa and elsewhere, the sexual mutilation of girls and the general submission of women in many Islamic countries, the excesses practiced by IS and so on and on, much more worrying an issue. The US service did - and do, I'm certain - some bad stuff. Okay. But by quantity alone, they are a relatively unimportant contributor to the worldwide statistics about torture and excessive violence against prisoners and victims of war.

[Catfish]

Have just read some of the documents.
Still, a lot of things are still blackened out in the documents, but the readable 'rest' ist disgusting enough. I cannot imagine mentally sane people do that, in the name of anything.
The german Spiegel has initially published alot of it, but also meanwhile taken the worst back. I think this is good. Words fail me, i do not want any more of this stuff.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/s...sscistudy3.pdf

Here is the link to the minority report if anyone is interested. When Democrats and Republicans can't even agree on basic facts and each release contradictory reports, it is hard to see this as more than a political exercise. If it was a joint report with bi-partisan support, I would take it more seriously.

I didn't see anything that the intelligence departments of foreign countries didn't already know. This just stirs up strife with normal hardworking people all over the world that pay attention to this sort of thing.

Funny that Democrats lost the national elections in November and the House and the democrats already changed the rules last year that a majority rules instead of the former 2/3rds votes needed.

Funny that the first causality is the Secretary of Defense a republican and now with this report being released the shame of it all is on Bush and the Republican Party.

Too late now ... what's next Guantanamo Bay Naval Base?

Two more years of surprises from a President that can veto any bill they put on his desk, plus pardon every druggie and drug dealer in the USA.

Not all that bad if it was just over marijuana now that I think about it.

Two more years till Jeb Bush (whoops) I mean the next president takes over.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

They did indeed arrest and torture innocent people, and in the article it says they actually tortured one guy as leverage to make his family talk. The methods the CIA used are inexcusable human rights violations, not to mention completely unreliable. Bush and Cheney will probably go to their graves without admitting that what they allowed the CIA to do was disgusting, and had little to nothing to do with the safety of the american people.

Oh, bugger

The places where all this stuff is happening should be shut down.

It's so comforting to know that the CIA thinks being sadistic to a bunch of terrorists and innocent people is more important than getting information that could help the War on Terror

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Ie applying torture? Depending on the definition (as some methods of torture leave little if any permanent marks) most countries do to some degree or another.

Certainly a number of US allies does - such as the Gulf States.

I note that you don't have much to say about your own country. People that live in glass houses and all that...