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-   -   Senate report on CIA torture techniques released (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=217200)

CaptainMattJ. 12-09-14 06:35 PM
Senate report on CIA torture techniques released
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/wo...re-report.html

Quote:
A scathing report released by the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday found that the Central Intelligence Agency routinely misled the White House and Congress about the information it obtained from the detention and interrogation of terrorism suspects, and that its methods were more brutal than the C.I.A. acknowledged either to Bush administration officials or to the public.

Skybird 12-09-14 07:05 PM
A state within a state. NSA, CIA, and what else there is: a state within a state. They even have their own secret laws, secret courts, a secret legislation and jurisdiction, that is. They even lie to their own government, apparently.

Thank God the state is in control of everything.

Question remains which state it actually is.

"An intelligence service's major job is not espionage against en enemy, but manipulation of the own public."

Rockstar 12-09-14 08:00 PM
Just in case anyone would rather read the actual 525 page executive summary. http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/s...sscistudy1.pdf

download was somewhat slow, for me atleast.

Armistead 12-09-14 09:01 PM
Haven't heard, but anything of real torture, severe beatings, things that actually did bodily harm? Not talking about what we...er..let other nations do for us..

Oberon 12-09-14 09:09 PM
Wondered if somebody would bring this up.

Still, it's all in the name of keeping the bad guys out...right? :yep:

Cybermat47 12-09-14 09:26 PM
I can't say I feel particularly sorry for the terrorists (I hope the CIA didn't screw up and accidently arrest innocent people...) there, but what the CIA is doing there is as sick as some of the things the terrorists do.

And anyway, didn't the British Intelligence services in WWII get reliable information that helped win the war by befriending German POWs? I'm pretty sure that would be more effective than shoving food up someone's backside.

Oberon 12-09-14 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybermat47 (Post 2267445)

And anyway, didn't the British Intelligence services in WWII get reliable information that helped win the war by befriending German POWs? I'm pretty sure that would be more effective than shoving food up someone's backside.
I don't know if I'd say it helped win the war (not in as much as the Enigma breakthroughs did) but what we used to do was bug the rooms that the men were in and give them food and alcohol and see what came out.

However, I would not be at all surprised if other more...questionable...methods were also used, but, as we have seen in this report, the reliability of the information extracted by such methods is not exactly brilliant which brings into question the whole point of the affair.

CaptainMattJ. 12-10-14 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybermat47 (Post 2267445)
I can't say I feel particularly sorry for the terrorists (I hope the CIA didn't screw up and accidently arrest innocent people...) there, but what the CIA is doing there is as sick as some of the things the terrorists do.
They did indeed arrest and torture innocent people, and in the article it says they actually tortured one guy as leverage to make his family talk. The methods the CIA used are inexcusable human rights violations, not to mention completely unreliable. Bush and Cheney will probably go to their graves without admitting that what they allowed the CIA to do was disgusting, and had little to nothing to do with the safety of the american people. :nope:

razark 12-10-14 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2267439)
...anything of real torture...
That really comes down to how you define "real" torture.

If medical intervention is required to revive a prisoner, I would consider that beyond the bounds of interrogation.

Catfish 12-10-14 03:31 AM
Direct physical beating has been and is also used, right now as we read this.

Germany allows CIA planes to cross the air space for special interrogations, to take some prisoners to e.g. Poland where US laws do not apply. But there it is being done by Americans, not Polish people.
It all cries to the heavens, but it is not exactly new though.

And it is not done by the US alone, mind you.

ikalugin 12-10-14 04:40 AM
The only real problem here that I see is the ideological one.

Ie, does the US have the right to selectively enforce it's ideals onto the other states? Or even not enforce those ideals, but use the enforcement of those ideals as an excuse for major geopolitical (often armed) intervention?

Interestingly enough only now does the ICC begin to look into the whole Afghanistan (and US war on terror in general) mess, not that there would be a proper investigation or anything (as per letter of International Law half of the world's leading politicians could be found guilty of some crime against peace or humanity if one looks well enough).

Catfish 12-10-14 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikalugin (Post 2267465)
The only real problem here that I see is the ideological one.
Ie, does the US have the right to selectively enforce it's ideals onto the other states? [...]
Methinks it would be better to have an own thread, for this :hmmm:

ikalugin 12-10-14 05:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catfish (Post 2267467)
Methinks it would be better to have an own thread, for this :hmmm:
Well it is all about exceptionalism that rose after the end of the Cold War I think. Ie:
 
- it is fine to torture bad guys, it is fine to have your friend torture guys (but not you), but it is not fine when some one else torture some one (even other bad guys). Who is bad and who is good is very situational - best example is Osama.
- it is fine to spy on your citizens, it is fine to spy on your friends, it is fine if your friends spys (but not on you), it is not fine when some one else spies on people (even on the bad people). Known example - Snowden controversy (classification of his action is a separate matter - what is important is that he confirmed the extent of the US surveillance programs). Certain charter between major IT firms and USG doesn't help this moral dilemma.
- it is fine to invade other countries for bogus reasons, to supply arms to dangerous and unstable groups of people, to bomb other countries without declaration of War (Syria). It is not fine if anyone else does this.

The list goes on, but those are the most obvious points I think.

Jimbuna 12-10-14 05:28 AM
This matter could well have far reaching consequences over the long term for America on the international stage but it begs the question....how many other countries have and are acting in a similar fashion?

ikalugin 12-10-14 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbuna (Post 2267482)
This matter could well have far reaching consequences over the long term for America on the international stage but it begs the question....how many other countries have and are acting in a similar fashion?
Ie applying torture? Depending on the definition (as some methods of torture leave little if any permanent marks) most countries do to some degree or another.

Certainly a number of US allies does - such as the Gulf States.


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