75% tax

[Catfish]

Re Skybird,
i would not consider myself a socialist or communist, they failed with the typical personnell that comes to power in those systems. But blatant locust capitalism does not get my vote either.
At present, i have more of a problem with the right wingers, they just overtake the classic left ideas and do the same BS themselves.

But it is not 'the politicians. We have no democracy in Germany after 1945, never had.

" ... Als die Gründerväter der Bundesrepublik Deutschland über das neu zu gründende Staatsgebilde nachdachten, entschieden sie sich für eine besonders rigide Variante der repräsentativen Demokratie, in der die Repräsentanten des Volks sehr viel zu entscheiden haben und das Volk selbst so gut wie nichts zu sagen hat. ..."

Nor had others:
http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/40/40546/1.html
http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/40/40574/1.html

Cheers,
Catfish

[XabbaRus]

Just read the article and noticed a paragraph taken up about the football players and clubs. Boohoo poor footy players are going to have to pay massive taxes. They're overpaid anyway. And the clubs complaining they're financially fragile. Well they have themselves to blame by paying huge salaries in the first place. LIke UK clubs are in debt due to wages. Although I agree that 75% is ridiculous it will affect a small percentage. What's the bets that those earning over the threshold have a clever accountant to get them out of it. I know in the UK I would if I was on that sort of money.

[Stealhead]

Here in the US the NFL is tax exempt.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Yeah, totally stolen! We don't get anything in return at all!
We all had to pay for our education, we have to pay to use the roads, the police and fire fighters won't move unless we can assure them to be able to pay for their services, the Bundeswehr has ceased to exist, my parents never got any support for raising their children and I don't get any unemployment money whatsoever. The world sucks!



I hope the irony was clear!

My school and education has been payed for at the time by the taxes of my father. The roads were built on grounds that should have been private, and politicians or "states" have no legal claim to own them and thus charge a fee for their use, I also would like to be asked whether I want a road to be build in my name and at my cost before I get blackmailed to straighten the bill. Better than tax-financing of public stuff (which is only meant to give the political and bureaucratic parasites a basis for living at the cost of all others) would be to leave costs for roadbuilding to merchantmen's and traders' action and organisation, and them organising it, and then calculating the costs into their product's prices - that would be in conformity with market logic and would mean that road building, product formats and production methods all compete on the market. The state must not compete at all - it sets prices for its inferior services which are too high, and never gets held accountable for it. Firefighters should be employed by local communities only, what they often are, or the do it voluntarily - oh wait, the EU just came with a new legislation that will ban voluntary firefighters - a specific pillar int he German system - on grounds of working hours exceeded (the EU wants to add hours from voluntary engagement by private people to their regular job workload and so have them all exceeding allowed working hours - and btw what has the dictators of the EU to regulate in the german local firefighter organization and in the question of how private people decide to spend their private time for what purposes???? Police is the stormtroop of the big monopolist for violence, expropriation and tailoring the law to its liking: the state. i would prefer more private security companies needing to compete in this area. In capitalism, competition and free price fixing is key, monopolism (by companies or the state) is death of freedom. And the Bundeswehr was enslaving young men at will of our political masters and stole some time of their lives and now it is send into operations that I do not support, that I oppose, and that I see no reason why I should pay for them. Like yourself, I do not take and never have taken any state subsidies and financial aids or reliefs, I pay more into health insurance than I cost the system due to the drugs I take, and my family, despite having suffered huge losses in wealth (due to a 3 year legal battle with parts of our distant hostile family), is all by itself and also not getting any aid, nor wanting it.

You note it: the socalled "Umlagesystem" I despise and call a criminal exploitation of the young, and the socalled "Generationenvertrag" is a treaty that was never put before me and which i never have signed nor was I ever asked about nor have I ever given it my acceptance.

I owe nobody nothing, and made sure for that. My loyalties to some people are voluntary decisions by myself. Me having to pay for a thousand things I do not want, that I oppose, on which i do not get asked, is an exploitation on the grounds that the state can send moire men with rifles against me than I an send against it. Else I would tell the state "F.U." Its no issue decided by morals or (corrupted) laws, but the comparing of pure brutal force - and I am weaker than the parasites.

Free market negotiating of demand and offer and price fixing is what makes people free. Socialist planned economies and state regulation of the market is what makes them unfree. Today, practically all aspects of our lives are regulated by th state: health, education,m work, finances - everything. Even the market is heavily regulated and planned. Capitalism is giving chance to everybody, and those who adapot to the market's demands win, and those unable to adapt loose. Fair chance. The only thing that destroy this, is not capitalism itself, but the distortion of and big threat to capitalism: monopolism. It is inherent in caiptalism, yes, it is an existential antagonist like death is to evertyhing that lives. And like life tries on to push back deathl, freedom-loving people must be ion guard to not allow monopolism. And that includes to not allow states, the biggest monopolists of all.

Le tthere be free trading between the people. LKet there be their nown responsibilit yin how they organise and what vlaue they contirbute to what offerings. You see in history that wherever this was the case, there was peace, and prosperity and wealth, and freedom. And where kings and republics appeared to regulate all this and erected controlling regimes, peace and freedom, prosperity and wealth got destroyed, and often it led to war.

Trading people do not want wars. Weapon traders being the exception, maybe.

Key is to prevent the erection of monopoles, and to ensure a design of interaction that guarantees that there will always be alternatives to any offer, producer, price. Of all Mafias there are, states are the biggest, the worst and the most destructive and dangerous. And ask yourself who is declaring wars. Ordinary people doing their business in their shops in the street - or somebody else?

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

My school and education has been payed for at the time by the taxes of my father.

Who paid for your fathers school and education?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Re Skybird,
i would not consider myself a socialist or communist, they failed with the typical personnell that comes to power in those systems. But blatant locust capitalism does not get my vote either.

Nor does it get mine. See what I said about monopolism and capitalism. Capitalism is the guarantee of private property and freedom. Monopolism destroys both. Socialism doers so as well.

The left, career politicians and "Beamte" benefit diretcly from the illusiuon that thigns must be controleld and reuglated by them, else they would not have a living, because they have nothign to offer that would allow them to be compoettitve on a market where people, products, goods and ideas and skills compete freely for best offers. They are loosers. And that is why they hate the market so much and call it evil: it unmasks their incompetence and uselessness and bigmouthed megalomania. The pendulum of the enlightenment swings back where Descartes accentuation of reason and reaosnability is understood as that the market instead can be planned, can be designed - where thew simple truth is that it is undertstood by nobody how it functions, we just see that it functions if left to itself, and that it becomens a mess where we want to plan it for the better, like you do not stirr a glass of muddy water to infkle3unce how the mud settles, but leave it to itself. It has been far more knowing and expere3inced minds than me who wrote whole books about this: that yoiu cannot know and plan the market, but that the market organbises itself, and that it is best to leave it to that. Hayek on mind, for example. But these minds would end the poltii8cans tyranny over the peopole by bringing end to the paper money system anbd endless money pri8nting of worthless billets, and so they got not listened to, got ridicukled and ignored from all beginning on, no matter the areguments of theirs that in orinciple until today have not been resounded until today. Instead: more cetnral banking to "plan" the unfolding of the paper money system, and more planning of the people'S motivations and the market and the economy. That is what gives politicans the opportunity to claim offices and privileges, to dance at exclusive parties and shine before the cameras.

Yopu cannot and should not accuse capitalism for the deformations of it: monopolism, and what you called locust capitalism.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Who paid for your fathers school and education?

Nobody, he had none worth the name. The family fled from the Russiasn from former Sudetenland, and did an odyssey through German cities that all did not want to host the many war refugees. His visiting of the music school where he learned his profession - he played bassoon in the German Symphony Orchestra Berlin) was payed by his father. The whole family suffered for those costs. The elder brother had to go to the German navy early so that he would not have to be fed at home.

But in principle, I question the whole "Umlagesystem" (no translation found) that you refer to, and I do not accept it anymore, because it is endless abuse of the young, for the costs for the later generations always are higher than for the earlier ones. Like you pay today for the food you eat today, you should also have your parents pay for your education now instead of somebody else paying for it, and you later paying EVEN MORE for somebody else's education. Its one huge robbery abusing generation after generation. And the maths do not work, btw. It should be evident for everybody to see today. Else that somebody still has not heard the echo of the shots of the past five years. Like anything else in the papermoney world, the "Umlagesystem" is one huge snowballing system as well. And necessarily there comes the day when the balloon goes burst.

It is two different morals colliding here, the morals that are valid in context of small special circles, families, friends, very small communities where people know each other and are more or less "intimate". And the anonymous mega-context of state societies. The morals of the first context, family, say that the adults care for the kids and the younger adults for the elder people. All fine. But in state context, that is not wanted, especially not amongst socialists and state planners, because it leaves responsibility over their lives to the people and thus doe snot give those who want to govern them any control over them, also, the socialist'S wet dream, the one big social collective were strangers are as close and intimate than real families, cannot be enforced with family still being intact and in place. So there comes the plan to destroy burgoise society by destroying families (Marx) and the currency (Lenin). In Germany, the spocilaists now want to push plöans for mandatory state child caretaking from the first year on. Children, so many in the SPD want it, should, be taken out of families from first birthday on and be given into state run kindergarden, where they get taken care of by foreign "experts" of - in Germany traditionally very left leaning - educational professions (calling mothers mothers is sexual discrimination, fathers do not count anyway since they are sexual predators of limited intellectual capacity and in general parents and families cannot be trusted to be able to raise children that they love and wished for, so the state has to intervene here as well, like everywhere else). Children do not like that at all, getting separated from others at that age, they are afraid by it, they hate it and become desperate, but no matter, the individual counts nothing, the collective and the proper brain washing is all. Also, the earlier the mother looses her child, the earlier she can go back into a job and create a tax income that can be used by politicians to pay for all their wonderful things and self-promoting brilliance.

The morals of the national society must and should be limited to banning of crime, and that everything is equal before the laws. Any solidarity that gets mandatorily asked of from you that you should have just for any stranger with whom you have nothing to do, prevents solidarity, because you can only be solidaric by your own voluntary decision (that makes socialists' blood boil hot), solidarity that gets blackmailed from you, is demanded totalitarian conformity. You cannot run a state by the morals valid for family context without turning that state into a tyranny where freedom is destroyed. You have to keep both separate.

Now compare to what they do in reality, and cry. It's a nightmare that slowly creeps on and on, and pie e by piece the most vital pillars of a true moral social contexts get destroyed - in the name of "social justice" and "solidarity" in the abuse of terms in socialist understanding. Which is pure cynism.

We had the Thousand-Years-Reich, and the everliving Soviet Union/German Democratic Republic. Two times socialism in just sixty years, two times monumental fails (and I do not even refer to the bloodbaths). Now we have iron pledges for the Thousand-Years-Currency and vows for the European Democratic Union. Life is running in always the same circles.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Nobody, he had none worth the name. The family fled from the Russiasn from former Sudetenland, and did an odyssey through German cities that all did not want to host the many war refugees.

Well maybe he didn't have a good quality education but it sounds like he got one nonetheless.

Every day in every way I am astounded by the sheer scale of the self contradictory absolute nonsense produced by Skybird, it is quite an achievement.
I must say I am fascinated by this new EU law which is going to ban civil defence programs

[the_tyrant]

Income Tax in France goes up to 75%?

you know what, this is one of the few times where i would say welcome to Canada! Enjoy our lower taxes!

Here in the US the NFL is tax exempt.

You know what, i think its probably for the best. The NFL itself as a league makes sense to be a non-profit. In fact, if it was a for profit organization, it would raise some problems.

If it was a traditional for profit corporation, then it would be pushed by shareholders to rig the playoffs for maximum profit. It would lead to allegations of league manipulation like the NBA ( http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-rigged-ru...-begin-1295675 )

Most industry governing bodies work this way. The IEEE, Comptia, etc are all non-profit to ensure that there are no biases in the industry, same with the NFL. However, that does not mean the individual teams are non-profit (the only one in the NFL is the Greenbay Packers).

Just like how members and companies that associate with the IEEE all make money, engineering is a hugely profitable industry after all, the IEEE itself is non-profit. The NFL is the same, the teams make money, the players make money, the refs make money, the stadium operators make money, the officials make money, but the league doesn't.

[Tchocky]

Seems to be the only thing more MURDEROUS and TYRANNICAL than running up debt is paying it off.

Originally Posted by Skybird

The morals of the national society must and should be limited to banning of crime, and that everything is equal before the laws.

Except homosexuals. They don't qualify.

Originally Posted by Skybird

We had the Thousand-Years-Reich, and the everliving Soviet Union/German Democratic Republic. Two times socialism in just sixty years, two times monumental fails (and I do not even refer to the bloodbaths). Now we have iron pledges for the Thousand-Years-Currency and vows for the European Democratic Union. Life is running in always the same circles.

Now you're just making stuff up.

[STEED]

And into the UK they come...

Since the first post is considered insulting for dealing with the complete crap that was written I shall stick with.

Now you're just making stuff up.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Well maybe he didn't have a good quality education but it sounds like he got one nonetheless.

None he owes the public or the state compensation for. And he payed more taxes in his life than just to compensate for what he took from the state, or for my education. The losses have been higher than the benefits. Even his pension income today - only is to less than a fifth due to state pension fonds which he financed by his life-long taxes, and to 80% is private insurance (classical musicians in Germany after the war used to have these things differently organsied than the majority of employees after the war, a special characteristic in post war Germany, different to explain in full detail).

It does not matter, August. The system of having other generations caring for yourself, and you caring for other generation (parents care for kids, adult kids care for old parents) works in families, and intimate social communities. On levels of states and nations, it gets chnaged into the "Umlagesystem", an anonymisation and deletion of personal responsibility within families, it is fincial exploitation of the young and thus criminal, and it always is at the cost of the following generations, since those coming later always are confronted with ever growing costs and burdens, thanks to our fantastic paper money illusion and every stampeding socialist construction of society.

My grandfather - not to mention that his youth is outside the context of the Federal Republic - never complained, but suffered far more losses than he won gains in his life. The war turned an athlete who almost mad eit into the nOlympic team, into a cripple. His kind, simple character was absued by "colleagus and false friends. He was betrayed in promotion processes, and goodheartedly did the work of others additionally to his own - for free. In a way he was a stupid man, one oif the type that has a good heart and simpole cannot deal with an absuive, chetaing world, if you know what I mean. You can take it for certain that he owed nothing to nobody when he died. Nor do my parents. Nor do I. And for what I take and buy and get and claim today, I always pay what the other side demands. And then I have to pay some more for things I have not asked for, do not want, have no word in, and consider to be overpriced, but I cannot avoid it, for it comes down to a simple comparison of strengths: the state'S, and mine. Finally, I logged several years when I worked in different functions as councelor, psychologist, trainer - FOR FREE. After that I did a couple of jobs that sometimes were hard or stressful work, sometime sless so, but always primtive and extremely low payed.

Some time ago I became seriopusly ill, and that was at a time when I had risen doubts in myself that this cannot be it: to allow getting exploited at other people's gain, and spend working time for nothing but idealism, no payment. Since then I quit working formally, and live by savings and some modest family wealth. Today, I have two other mottos than ten and 15 years ago. "Stuff must cost", and "You want my fair work, you pay me fair money."

I ask nothing for myself from the state, nor do I accept anything for free. I live at nobody's expenses. I owe to my moral conscience, and I owe to my parents - beyond that I owe nothing to nobody anymore, my claimed debts have been more than straightened, but overcompensated for. I kick everybody out my door who tries to tell me otherwise. If you think this undermines your understanding or concept of a state - be assured I hope it does. If the things I have posted over the past years and especially the past 12 months (about economy and liberalism and democracy always turning into socialist dictatorship and democracy necessarily always fostering the worst in politicians) would make me drawing any other consequence than to wish for national states and international suprastate structures breaking down - I would contradict myself or illustrate that I have not understood what the things I am saying do mean in consequence. Different to you, democratic states to me are no solution, nor the smallest evil amongst all government formats. To me, it is the fundament of the problems we have, and since other forms of states and government - sometimes - only slightly reduce the harms that come from democracy, the only consequence can be to conclude that we would be better off if we learn to get along without any national state structures and democratic systems (and murderous religious cults of conquests, to complete the list) as we understand both terms today. Some of the most blossoming eras of European culture and history unfolded in contexts where there was neither democracy and free elections, nor national statehood. Most of Europe's finests arts and quite a big load of Europe'S finest in philosophic achievments stem from these. This although the continental environment was war-torn and grim and cruel for many.

It is a lie to say democracy is the best there is, and that we cannot organsise peaceful life without national states. A lie fostered by the benefitting parasites who claim control and power by making everybody believe in these lies. But our wealth corrodes and breaks away, our societies turn more and more into hypercontrolled and morally tyrannised dictatorships, free market practically does not exist anymore, and more and more is replaced with state-run planned economies or corrupted by lobbyism and monopolism (monopoles that often the ruling political elites benefit of), and our brilliant fiscal debt system - this sadistic carricature of a currency - explodes right into our faces. The ship is sinking, and once a critical threshold amount of water has flooded the inside, the ship no longer slowly swings to the side, but all of a sudden goes extremely fast into a rollover and then head dive. The crashdive still may be some years away, may last for years in itself, like Rome did not die in two years and the Warsaw Pact'S economy stumbled along for another two decades after it was effectively broken down in the early 70s already. But our clothes already are dripping with water and we need to grab the ropes to not lose balance when walking the deck.

[Tchocky]

Not to get too far into personal criticism but it seems that a little less remote observation, and a little more actual participation might straighten out some of this overly wordy millenarian gobbledygook.