Subsim front page article that pissed me off

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I've never experienced anti German sentiments here. The site owner himself has travelled several times to Germany to meet with Subsim members so I don't believe he has any anti German feelings either.

I think, given the main games this forums represent, that we hold the German Kreigsmarine in some form of respect.

[August]

Originally Posted by areo16

This is where I disagree with many here, and the article. It is not a Nazi sub. It is a German sub. The submarine was from Germany and flew the German flag, which happened to be Nazi (because the Nazi party took control of the government). The submarine was not Nazi. Nazi is not a name of a nation or state, it is a slur term used to describe a national socialist, a person who believes in a political ideology called national socialism.

Our carriers in the pacific are not "Democracy carriers", they are US carriers becaus they belong to the US. They may be controlled by a democracy government, but they are not democracy carriers.

That is a German sub, not a Nazi sub. Germany still existed under Nazi control. One is a political ideology, the other a country.

And what political ideology was the submarine created to fight for? The German or the nazi? You can't ignore the very reason for it's existence just because you're afraid of hurting someones feelings.

As for those carriers, I suppose you don't realize it but they were part of our Arsenal of Democracy so yeah they actually are "Democracy carriers"

[areo16]

Originally Posted by privateer

I'll be 56 in January. I'll save you the problem of guessing.
I jumped out of AirCraft into Combat zones for the U.S. of A. more then once.
Am I a Richard? Hell I admitted that a LONG time ago.
So now what insult do you want to try on me?

I'm not here to play insult games...

If anyone else wants to chit chat about the topic I'll be glad to join in.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by August

And what political ideology was the submarine created to fight for? The German or the nazi? You can't ignore the very reason for it's existence just because you're afraid of hurting someones feelings.

As for those carriers, I suppose you don't realize it but they were part of our Arsenal of Democracy so yeah they actually are "Democracy carriers"

They were built for a political ideology, most of them. But they were not owned by that political ideology. They were owned by Germany. That makes them German subs.

I have never heard the term "Democracy Carriers", nor do I think if it was used as freely as "Nazi" would it be that much of an insult, other than the irony it carries in the name. Plus many democratic countries could have democracy carriers.

[areo16]

I suppose the issue boils down to the term "nazi" itself and what its transformed to mean in the present day. Since post-war the term has only meant for bad things, and everything represented by it is seen in a bad light. So to compare its usage to a term like "democracy", like I did with the carriers, still isnt even equal because Nazi has such a negative representation belonging to the word.

That is why we should be careful when using the word "Nazi", especially when talking about a steel coffin for fallen veterans. If the term nazi didn't have such a negative annotation, then this conversation wouldn't even exist.

Originally Posted by areo16

I'm not here to play insult games...

You started the de-railment Mate.
Don't ask questions you can't accept answers to.

Do I find this whole thread going South?
Oh Hell yes I do!

It's going to become a big political debate over a single word in a News Media event.
"Nazi"

Those guys on that Sub died a horrible death during war.
And you have a problem over the word "Nazi" being used.

Pretty small of you in my mind.
(But then I post like a 5 year old )

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

I think, given the main games this forums represent, that we hold the German Kreigsmarine in some form of respect.

That is a true statement.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by privateer

You started the de-railment Mate.
Don't ask questions you can't accept answers to.

Do I find this whole thread going South?
Oh Hell yes I do!

It's going to become a big political debate over a single word in a News Media event.
"Nazi"

Those guys on that Sub died a horrible death during war.
And you have a problem over the word "Nazi" being used.

Pretty small of you in my mind.
(But then I post like a 5 year old )

Please stop.

Originally Posted by areo16

Please stop.

I will only because I can see me getting tagged as 'bully' at some point.
Seems that is a more popular cause then ridding the world of the "Nazi" word.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by privateer

Seems that is a more popular cause then ridding the world of the "Nazi" word.

Good for you, friend!

[August]

Originally Posted by areo16

They were built for a political ideology, most of them. But they were not owned by that political ideology. They were owned by Germany. That makes them German subs.

I have never heard the term "Democracy Carriers", nor do I think if it was used as freely as "Nazi" would it be that much of an insult, other than the irony it carries in the name. Plus many democratic countries could have democracy carriers.

The term is your invention, not mine. They were widely considered to be instruments of Democracy whether or not they were always referred to as such.

A German sub sunk between 1939 and 1945 was fighting a war on the side of the nazi government. That makes it a nazi sub in my book just like my grandfathers gun was a nazi gun. I like most people understand the difference between the weapons and the men who crewed them.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by August

The term is your invention, not mine. They were widely considered to be instruments of Democracy whether or not they were always referred to as such.

A German sub sunk between 1939 and 1945 was fighting a war on the side of the nazi government. That makes it a nazi sub in my book just like my grandfathers gun was a nazi gun. I like most people understand the difference between the weapons and the men who crewed them.

Well, we recognize everything else from who it belongs to. If Mike uses a hammer that belongs to John, then Mike is using John's hammer. If someone points to the hammer and asks what it is, a person will say that it is John's hammer. It is not Mike's hammer unless John says Mike can keep the hammer. No, Mike is just using the hammer.

The Nazi's were using the sub, but the sub belonged to Germany. And the Nazis were able to use it because the Nazi's controlled Germany.

It's John's hammer and it's Germany's sub.

[August]

Originally Posted by areo16

Well, we recognize everything else from who it belongs to. If Mike uses a hammer that belongs to John, then Mike is using John's hammer. It is not Mike's hammer unless John says Mike can keep the hammer. No, Mike is just using the hammer.

The Nazi's were using the sub, but the sub belonged to Germany. And the Nazis were able to use it because the Nazi's controlled Germany.

It's John's hammer and it's Germany's sub.

The nazis ordered the submarine built, they marked it with their symbols, they sent it on it's mission of destruction to foreign shores and it was used to kill people in the name of national socialism. You can attempt to deny this with silly hammer comparisons but others will continue to call it what it really was, a nazi sub.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by August

The nazis ordered the submarine built, they marked it with their symbols, they sent it on it's mission of destruction to foreign shores and it was used to kill people in the name of national socialism. You can attempt to deny this with silly hammer comparisons but others will continue to call it what it really was, a nazi sub.

Military units are always defined by what country they belong to. What nationality the machine or soldier belongs to. There was never a country called "Nazi", or "Naziland". Those subs were German, and they have always been German. Nazis might have ordered "most" of them built, but some were not ordered built by Nazis. The nazis you are talking about are German. They are all German. The Nazi Government was German. It is all German. That sub was controlled by Nazis, for the most part, but it was a German sub. Nazi is not a nationality. A Nazi government is a government that is national socialist, it does not necessarily mean that it is the German national socialist government called the Third Reich.

There may be more Nazi governments in the future (hopefully not). But to say that the sub is Nazi is simply incorrect. The sub belonged to Germany, which happened to be controlled by Nazis.

Hammer Time!!