The Coup D'etat of November 1963

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Post a link? The Zapruder Film clearly shows him jerk back then forward to the left, slumped, back of his clearly blown out.There are autopsy photos that show back of his head blown out, the exit wound of the mangled bullet.

Found a much better one:

At 1:43. The bullet seems to hit or exit the right side of his head.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Found a much better one:

At 1:43. The bullet seems to hit or exit the right side of his head.

I can see how would look like that first glance, but if it came from the back, he would have lurched forward from the violent impact.The head shot came from the grassy knoll is most logical explanation, hit him front, perhaps with a little deflection, around temple area, exited out the back, caused side/back blowout of the skull and the mangled bullet.The bullet impacted coming from the front, caused him to go back, then slump down to the left after the fatal head shot.This was the point of triangulation of crossfire, bullets coming from all directions, created chaos.Some 50 people reported gunfire from the grassy knoll.

[TarJak]

Bubbles you are talking bollocks again

Have a read of Mortal Error then report back. Secret Service Agent Hickey in the chase car is still the most likely candidate for the one who fired the fatal round. The ballistic evidence outlined in that book is far more compelling and comprehensive than any other ive seen. It also adequately explains that the so called pristine bullet was certainly not pristine. Also the so called magic bullet was not magic at all and followed a trajectory from Oswalds window through Kennedy the jump seat in front of him amd Governor Connelly.

This site outlines the evidence nicely: http://www.sbs.com.au/thesmokinggun

The Secret Service haste to move the body and the way the autopsy was carried out and the presidents brain going missing are far more important facts than the fictional shooter on the grassy knoll or some bloke with an umbrella.

[Dread Knot]

Meh. Color me unimpressed.

What strikes me is that in 50 years no conspiracy theorist has come any closer to solving Kennedy's murder. That's because they are adamant in saying it is not their goal to do so. Instead they opt for the exoneration of Lee Harvey Oswald and the indictment of some massive, multi-headed, overlordly conspiracy that they can't even agree on. They pick away at the admittedly flawed Warren Commission but can never come up with a narrative of their own that explains all, or find the smoking gun ( or memo or deathbed confession) that finally blows the lid off. I predict 50 years from there will still be JFK conspiracy theories and Oswald will still be the only known culprit. Just less people will care.

Why, if the "Powers That Be" determined that the President must die, did they do so in full view of the public where it could be independently observed and recorded, in a way that conspiracy theorists claim was so very obviously a murder?

There are other methods for taking down a president you don't like.

Food poisoning. Scandal. Accident.

This is what I find so silly about the whole JFK assassination scenario as a conspiracy. It's not that the alleged conspirators chose the silliest way to shoot the President in public; it's that they chose the silliest way to get rid of him -- by shooting him in public.

But who framed Roger Rabbit?

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

But who framed Roger Rabbit?

Oswald Rabbit obviously.

[yubba]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Oswald Rabbit obviously.

Now that's funny, can't seem to get a word in edge wise here server always busy or is that another,, con spear assiey,,, I'm well,, glad, some took up the good fight,,, I salute you carry on. and how about getting that Pt done I don't want to die of old age before that's done Nic.

[TarJak]

I don't believe that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK. Oswald acted alone, tried and got a shot on target. Hickey s shot was an accident. Was there then a conspiracy to cover up the accident?

We'll never know. The ballistic evidence doesn't support there being a single gunman using the same ammunition. The angle and bullet behavior of the head shot is inconsistent with a jacketed round fired from the book depsitory window, but wholly consistent with a smaller caliber frangible round being fired from the chase car.

Again we can only speculate and will still be doing so 100 years from now.

[Subnuts]

25 reasons why the assassination of John F Kennedy was a HOAX!

1. A bullet fired from the book depository would have have run out of fuel before it actually hit Kennedy.
2. If the gun that Lee Harvey Oswald supposedly used to assassinate Kennedy was real, it would have been so powerful it would have exploded.
3. When Oswald fired the rifle, it should have left a charred blast crater on the back of the book depository.
4. Oswald didn't possess sufficient computing power to navigate a bullet into Kennedy's head.
5. The bullet that struck Kennedy was powerful enough to blow off part of his head, but Jackie Kennedy survived completely intact.
6. The radiation generated by the heat of the gun fired would have been sufficient to kill Oswald in minutes.
7. If a bullet fired from a 44-caliber handgun can kill someone in a single shot, a bullet fired from a 6.5 mm Carcano Model 91/38 rifle should have killed everyone in the limousine.
8. The shadows of the gunmen on the grassy knoll cast nonparallel shadows.
9. There was no handle to open the doors on the presidential limo from the inside.
10. It was so hot in Dallas that day, that Zapruder's movie camera would have been melted and all of the people lining the streets would have burst into flame.
11. No one had assassinated the president while he was in a moving vehicle before. How could it have worked the first time?
12. If American politicians were being assassinated 50 years ago, we would still be doing so today.
13. If you slow down the footage of the actual bullet strike four times, it's just a dead squirrel being blown up with a firecracker superimposed onto footage of JFK's inauguration.
14. If the assassination were real, Lyndon Johnson would have had Lee Harvey Oswald hanged.
15. There are thousands of shooting ranges throughout the United States, where the assassination could have easily been hoaxed.
16. The 6.5 mm Carcano was such an inaccurate rifle, that most of the rounds fired by it would have flown back and struck Oswald.
17. The presidential limo had an engine in front, which would have prevented anyone from exiting it.
18. The American flags in the Zapruder film are blowing in the wind, even though it was too hot that day for any wind to blow.
19. You can see the strings suspending the bits of "brain matter" when JFK is fatally shot, and everyone in the limo turns into a rod puppet for a couple of frames.
20. The presidential limo was not big enough to store enough fuel for Kennedy's scheduled tour.
21. The autopsy pictures of Kennedy were of another body that had been baked in a radiation oven at 5,000 degrees.
22. If there had been a solar flare that day, Kennedy would have been killed by it, driving around with the top down.
23. We should have heard the gun firing in the Zapruder film, but the entire event seems curiously silent.
24. The presidential limo would have put out thick, black exhaust and left tire marks on the road wherever it traveled.
25. The presidential limo was so big and heavy, the driver could have never compensated for it's changing center of gravity as it burned fuel.

I think I might be getting my conspiracy theories mixed up.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by TarJak

I don't believe that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK. Oswald acted alone, tried and got a shot on target. Hickey s shot was an accident. Was there then a conspiracy to cover up the accident?

We'll never know. The ballistic evidence doesn't support there being a single gunman using the same ammunition. The angle and bullet behavior of the head shot is inconsistent with a jacketed round fired from the book depsitory window, but wholly consistent with a smaller caliber frangible round being fired from the chase car.

Again we can only speculate and will still be doing so 100 years from now.

I could accept one of two "ifs", but this case is full of them. Too many odd events that suggest something more. I think Oswald was part of it, but believe it highly possible others were involved.

Still, isn't it something Oswald was who he was, just happened to work at the perfect place when Kennedy came by.

[August]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

25 reasons why the assassination of John F Kennedy was a HOAX!

1. A bullet fired from the book depository would have have run out of fuel before it actually hit Kennedy.
2. If the gun that Lee Harvey Oswald supposedly used to assassinate Kennedy was real, it would have been so powerful it would have exploded.
3. When Oswald fired the rifle, it should have left a charred blast crater on the back of the book depository.
4. Oswald didn't possess sufficient computing power to navigate a bullet into Kennedy's head.
5. The bullet that struck Kennedy was powerful enough to blow off part of his head, but Jackie Kennedy survived completely intact.
6. The radiation generated by the heat of the gun fired would have been sufficient to kill Oswald in minutes.
7. If a bullet fired from a 44-caliber handgun can kill someone in a single shot, a bullet fired from a 6.5 mm Carcano Model 91/38 rifle should have killed everyone in the limousine.
8. The shadows of the gunmen on the grassy knoll cast nonparallel shadows.
9. There was no handle to open the doors on the presidential limo from the inside.
10. It was so hot in Dallas that day, that Zapruder's movie camera would have been melted and all of the people lining the streets would have burst into flame.
11. No one had assassinated the president while he was in a moving vehicle before. How could it have worked the first time?
12. If American politicians were being assassinated 50 years ago, we would still be doing so today.
13. If you slow down the footage of the actual bullet strike four times, it's just a dead squirrel being blown up with a firecracker superimposed onto footage of JFK's inauguration.
14. If the assassination were real, Lyndon Johnson would have had Lee Harvey Oswald hanged.
15. There are thousands of shooting ranges throughout the United States, where the assassination could have easily been hoaxed.
16. The 6.5 mm Carcano was such an inaccurate rifle, that most of the rounds fired by it would have flown back and struck Oswald.
17. The presidential limo had an engine in front, which would have prevented anyone from exiting it.
18. The American flags in the Zapruder film are blowing in the wind, even though it was too hot that day for any wind to blow.
19. You can see the strings suspending the bits of "brain matter" when JFK is fatally shot, and everyone in the limo turns into a rod puppet for a couple of frames.
20. The presidential limo was not big enough to store enough fuel for Kennedy's scheduled tour.
21. The autopsy pictures of Kennedy were of another body that had been baked in a radiation oven at 5,000 degrees.
22. If there had been a solar flare that day, Kennedy would have been killed by it, driving around with the top down.
23. We should have heard the gun firing in the Zapruder film, but the entire event seems curiously silent.
24. The presidential limo would have put out thick, black exhaust and left tire marks on the road wherever it traveled.
25. The presidential limo was so big and heavy, the driver could have never compensated for it's changing center of gravity as it burned fuel.

I think I might be getting my conspiracy theories mixed up.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Steve, I have considered other possibilities, for a long time I believed in the single shooter theory, but based on research etc, just does not make sense.

So you keep saying. I would suggest doing a little research.

Sorry, yes bullet impacts can make human body do weird things, but the Kennedy head wound entering from the back , exploding the back of his head, coming out the front with a neat hole? reversing the entrance and exit wounds? lol come on now.

As I said, you seem to be latching onto the favorite theories without doing the slightest bit of investigation yourself.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.htm (warning: it's a bit graphic)

The film is there, he clearly recoils back from taking a hit to the forehead/temple area, bullet exits out the back.

I've just finished watching the film several times. Yes, his head snaps back. The spray, however, clearly flies forward, consistent with the passage being from rear to front.

Bullet was damaged, mangled from what I have read.Yet the supposed second shot from Oswald, the magic bullet, hit Kennedy in the back, exited his throat, went through hit Governor Connolly, did some zigs like it had a tiny rocket motor in it, exited, his his wrist and survived intact? come on now.

The bullet was mangled after travelling at an angle through the top of the skull. As to your "zigs like it had a tiny rocket motor in it"? Once again the slightest bit of research would show you otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-bullet_theory
Scroll down to see the pictures of possible bullet paths.

Like anything, government has a weak explanation that it peddles to contradict the truth.RFK allegedly made the statement "If the truth about Dallas came out, there would be blood in the streets"

You have the temerity to say "Come on now"? [Citation please].

This professor gives a great run down

First, the video starts with James Files, who apparently is not even believed by the conspiracy theorists. That's not good.

you would enjoy the detail he goes into

He does spin a good tale, I'll give him that. His talk about the lunchroom doesn't take into account the fact that Oswald was the only employee who left the building before the police cordon was set up. The fact remains that Oswald killed officer J.D. Tippit when Tippit stopped him for questioning.

Really, if it were one person or two but it's many, some stayed quiet out of fear, others were silenced long ago

Again, nothing but conjecture on your part. How would you, or anyone, know they stayed quiet out of fear? Maybe they stayed quiet because they had nothing to say. How would you, or anyone, know others were silenced? They died. Some say the circumstances were suspicious. Were they? If they were, what does that prove?

Again, I'm not denying anything, or even taking sides. Of course the conspicacy theorists may be right. The problem is that they have yet to show a single bit of evidence that can't be explained by the accepted story.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Meh. Color me unimpressed.

What strikes me is that in 50 years no conspiracy theorist has come any closer to solving Kennedy's murder. That's because they are adamant in saying it is not their goal to do so. Instead they opt for the exoneration of Lee Harvey Oswald and the indictment of some massive, multi-headed, overlordly conspiracy that they can't even agree on. They pick away at the admittedly flawed Warren Commission but can never come up with a narrative of their own that explains all, or find the smoking gun ( or memo or deathbed confession) that finally blows the lid off. I predict 50 years from there will still be JFK conspiracy theories and Oswald will still be the only known culprit. Just less people will care.

Why, if the "Powers That Be" determined that the President must die, did they do so in full view of the public where it could be independently observed and recorded, in a way that conspiracy theorists claim was so very obviously a murder?

There are other methods for taking down a president you don't like.

Food poisoning. Scandal. Accident.

This is what I find so silly about the whole JFK assassination scenario as a conspiracy. It's not that the alleged conspirators chose the silliest way to shoot the President in public; it's that they chose the silliest way to get rid of him -- by shooting him in public.

Watch the video I posted, it pieces everything together.

Why did they do it in full of public? Because they knew the American public was overall gullible and likely did not take into account people like Zapruder as home movie cameras were still not the norm back them.Not like today where everyone has HD video on their cell phones.Plus, the men who likely orchestrated this, LBJ, Dulles, Helms etc had a high degree of disdain for the public and knew that with smoke and mirrors, president in a hostile state, a proper story with a patsy, they could win, especially in those days when public still have a naive trust in the government, which unfortunately many still have today, much like an abused wife who just can't stop loving his abusive partner and will not leave, people who still trust the US government are much like that.I understand it, no one wants to believe something like this could happen in the United States, this happens everywhere else but no here.

Oh you are wrong, eventually the truth will come out.There are reasons files were sealed until 30 or so years into this century, to give people time to die off.Amazes me how people will still blindly support the one shooter theory when evidence contradicts it.There dozens of witnesses who report fire from grassy knoll, the ballistics dispute the "one bullet theory" and like Jim Garrison said in the JFK Movie "Government may try to explain this bullet with theoretical physics, but theoretical physics could prove than an elephant could hang off a cliff by his tail wrapped around a daisy" lol, it was junk science used to muddy the waters on an misinformed, naive public.Most people can not tell what the federal reserve is, what it does, how it was formed, and how powerful it is.Most people only know the name Dulles due to the airport, they don't understand just how hated JFK was by the establishment.They don't understand, mainly because so much time has passed just how powerful these men were.J Edgar Hoover hated JFK and RFK.LBJ hated them as both and certainly did the bidding of the powers that be once the coup was completed. This had to be an inside job, since parade route was also changed to what would be a suitable ambush site.


The most likely scenario is that JFK was murdered in a plot initiated by Dulles, Helms, and federal reserve with the approval of LBJ.The assassins were likely cia trained or even mafia assets.Oswald, who had been trained by the ONI, was likely lead to believe he was part of an operation, and made the patsy, perhaps realized it and thus why he fled as it was unlikely no evidence to support he actually fired a shot, the palm print LATER found on the rifle is highly suspect, no chain of custody.

One other plausible scenario, is that a massive intelligence failure occurred, the plot lead back to Castro or Soviets and to avoid what would be a demand for war, it was covered up, which could also explain the secrecy to this day.

Sad part is no one will ever really be held accountable for his murder and an overthrow of the elected US government but truth and come out, can ensure history books read correctly and make sure the legacies of men like LBJ, Dulles, etc depict them for the traitors and thugs that they were.

[Bilge_Rat]

I sort of agree with BH that there are a lot of unanswered questions about the assassination, including the "magic bullet" theory. Yes, it's possible, but it is a stretch.

Oliver Stone's "JFK", although it does go over the deep end does a good job about covering all the issues.

What has pretty much convinced me that Oswald acted alone is the fact that 50 years on, no documents or witnesses have appeared which support a conspiracy. Even in the Mafia or the Soviet Union, eventually someone talks about what happened.

p.s.- I am just barely old enough to remember the event. I was 8 at the time and did not understand what was going on, but I remember my parents having the TV on all the time and being very sad.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

What has pretty much convinced me that Oswald acted alone is the fact that 50 years on, no documents or witnesses have appeared which support a conspiracy. Even in the Mafia or the Soviet Union, eventually someone talks about what happened.

Same here. People talk. They become greedy or guilty or disenchanted. Loyalties shift. Death threats don't work on people who are already dead or about to die. A substantial number of people who would have had to be in on such a conspiracy have died. Yet among these, we find no safe deposit boxes with incriminating photos, memos or documents, no accounts of deathbed confessions. No such evidence sent abroad to a foreign nation where they could get an airing.