The victim is guilty

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

You accept that she was raped with no evidence as if that is a given. Is it? Then prove it the authorities couldn't.

That is one of the horrible aspects of rape -- often there is no evidence.

A man and a women meet. They engage in sexual activity. Was it lust or rape?

The physical evidence may be identical (especially when many rapes do not involve violence but the threat of violence).

What is the difference between lust and rape? Consent. Lust involves consent and rape does not (at least not on the part of both partners).

How do you prove no consent other than asking both parties? What if they disagree?

Unfortunately, a lot of rape cases are a "he said, she said" case and those are hard to judge fairly... unless there is bias.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Anything else?

Have you seen it and does it prove rape? Apparently not. Anything else?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Platapus

That is one of the horrible aspects of rape -- often there is no evidence.

A man and a women meet. They engage in sexual activity. Was it lust or rape?

The physical evidence may be identical (especially when many rapes do not involve violence but the threat of violence).

What is the difference between lust and rape? Consent. Lust involves consent and rape does not (at least not on the part of both partners).

How do you prove no consent other than asking both parties? What if they disagree?

Unfortunately, a lot of rape cases are a "he said, she said" case and those are hard to judge fairly... unless there is bias.

In this instance the article states the photo's show the act being perpetrated. But I agree, many cases are a slipper slope "he said, she said." More often these days we are finding the activity on video or pictured. Then posted for the world to see.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Have you seen it and does it prove rape? Apparently not. Anything else?

I do not need to see it. That is up to our judicial system. The article states pictures of the act were posted. The act and aftermath were enough for a person to take their life. In your minds eye there is more to the story?

[Buddahaid]

Of course as the article is only one persons tragic story. It is even likely true however it's still just part of the whole picture. And no you don't need to see it, but you do to say it proves rape. The authorities deemed it was not conclusive enough to press charges. Don't think I'm unsympathetic, I'm being pragmatic for the sake of argument.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Of course as the article is only one persons tragic story. It is even likely true however it's still just part of the whole picture. And no you don't need to see it, but you do to say it proves rape. The authorities deemed it was not conclusive enough to press charges. Don't think I'm unsympathetic, I'm being pragmatic for the sake of argument.

I understand Buddahaid.

[Safe-Keeper]

You accept that she was raped with no evidence as if that is a given. Is it? Then prove it the authorities couldn't.

I'm not a police investigator. It's not for me to say. Either way, authorities have a much higher treshold for declaring rapes have happened, simply because they

a. don't want to jail innocent people, or
b. don't do their jobs right.

Seems in this case, it could be a bit of both:

Leah Parsons is now criticizing police for how they handled the investigation, accusing them of not interviewing the four boys who were involved in the rape of her daughter until “much, much later.”

[Buddahaid]

Does she have proof or is that her emotional story? There is a lot of story here and very few facts to discuss. One of which is the rape getting reported very late as well.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Does she have proof

The article states there are pictures of the act that were posted.

[Skybird]

I discovered the story in German news first, and when searching an English link found many German blogs and news sources reporting it. The German news was more frank in describing what happened, and more explicit on the reaction by her "friends" when they started to mob her. I did not find equivalent English sources to that.

For the time being, lets take the article the way it has been written, instead of assuming what alternatively happened. Lets take the rape as a rape and the mobbing as a mobbing.

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Does this apply to everyone who is drunk, or just women who are raped? If I see you in a bar drunk, am I allowed to beat you up, pickpocket you or wreck your car?

Ask someone who has expressed those views which I mentioned.

Fail, both on a moral and factual basis. Go sit in the naughty corner until you're sorry

Read what was written.
If you want to put someone in the naughty corner for those obnoxious views then do it to the person who held them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Indeed, and as my previous post asked, where was her support base? Her pillars of strength?
Alarm bells were tolling loud enough for everyone to hear. The signs were there, victimization, bullying, harrassment, both of a sexual nature and also of a physical nature. Hell, they moved away, the self-admitting to a hospital.
Surely the outward signs were there: depression, reclusive, uncertain, introvert behaviour, who knows what else.
Maybe the alarm bells were faulty.
I just cannot fathom that her support base was, not necessarily oblivious to het state of despair, but not at the very least monitoring, supporting with constant supervision.

Depressions are extremely malicious, like an anaconda growing inside you and strangling you from within, slowly, silently. And even beyond that, not everybody can bear everything forever. While supporters not necessarily always can save everybody. Sometimes too much is just too much. Everybody has his/her breaking point.

[u crank]

Apparently the public outrage has caused Nova Scotia's Justice Minister Ross Landry to look further into the case. It's a little late. I doubt if anything will come of it now, but I hope something will get done.

My opinion. One of these boys has a parent who has friends in high places. It happens.

The girls funeral is on Saturday.

[NeonSamurai]

Some of you may already know this. I have been working in a locked adolescent inpatient (psychiatric) unit at a hospital for the past several months. Many of the kids I work with are actively suicidal, or have tried to kill themselves. I actually have a patient right now who's story is not too different to the girl in this article.

I thought I might address a few of the posts from a professional standpoint. Before I do I want to say this... If there is someone you know, who you think might be suicidal, the best thing you can do is ask them directly and bluntly about it. "Are you thinking about killing yourself?" If they answer yes, tell them you are going to get them help, and dial 911.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Simply tragic.
Suicidal people indicate one thing to me: crying out for help.
To others it indicates other things. I used to think that suicidal persons were selfish, in the fact that they take their own life, leaving behind their loved ones to grieve for them. 'Taking the easy way out', when there are no other ways out of a miserable, depressing and unsupportive life.
This case certainly is the opposite. Calling out for help, not being able to deal with what life is offering.

That is true and untrue. Indirectly it is a call for help, but directly it isn't really. Most of the time they want to die because they either can't take their situation any more and want an escape, or their clinical depression has gotten too severe to manage, or they are psychotic and there is some command hallucination or paranoia directing them to kill themselves.

The causes are diverse, from trauma and bad situations,to neurotransmitter deficiencies in the brain or genetics, or some combination of the above (the most frequent of the two). The are often ambivalent towards living or dying, and a depressed person is highly egocentric, and frequently have a flattened range of emotion where nothing matters any more, and they feel nothing but numbness (many intentionally self harm just to feel something... anything).

A question i have though is this: after reading the article, it states that the girl admitted herself after entertaining suicidal thoughts.
that was in March. I would think that alarm bells would be ringing loud and clear at this stage for her family and friends. Once a person is entertaining or attempting suicide, even more care needs to be taken to watch and observe and to monitor her condition continuously.
Once a person has decided that suicide is the only way out, there needs to be clear and decisive action taken.
I know that if my daughter took it upon herself to consider suicide or self-admit to a hospital after thinking about suicide, then i would do whatever it takes to monitor the situation around the clock.

It is hard to say what happened in this case, the parents may have had the impression she was over the hump and ok again. Many kids pretend they are ok, or will deny in the hospital what they told others. The kids that come to the hospital frequently have over exaggerated stories from schools and parents, and the signs can be subtle. You can't monitor someone continuously, and it is impossible to make them entirely safe anywhere. If someone is determined enough, they will do it. If you think you can monitor a suicidal kid 24/7 as a parent, you are deluding yourself when even we can hardly do that at the hospital level (with cameras, and multiple shifts). Also with kids, suicide attempts are almost always highly impulsive acts, with no real planning or foresight.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Indeed, and as my previous post asked, where was her support base? Her pillars of strength?
Alarm bells were tolling loud enough for everyone to hear. The signs were there, victimization, bullying, harrassment, both of a sexual nature and also of a physical nature. Hell, they moved away, the self-admitting to a hospital.
Surely the outward signs were there: depression, reclusive, uncertain, introvert behaviour, who knows what else.
Maybe the alarm bells were faulty.
I just cannot fathom that her support base was, not necessarily oblivious to het state of despair, but not at the very least monitoring, supporting with constant supervision.

Caring active parents miss signs all the time. The alarm bells were not actively ringing, that much is obvious. I am also not sure what exactly you would expect from the parents. Signs of suicidal are not cut and dry and not obvious and frequently run along side other issues like depression. Some kids also endure better than others, and many mask things really well, particularly if there was trauma.

All that event took was a brief period of time to happen. I knew a kid we lost last winter, she had been hospitalized many times, overdosing was an escape method for her, one time her parents found her half an hour too late and that was it.

Originally Posted by Platapus

A politically incorrect observation not necessarily associated with this thread's topic

It is interesting that if a women gets drunk, has sexual activity and later objects, the law presumes that if she had sexual activity, she is not responsible (did not give consent) due to impairment (being drunk) and therefore is not responsible. i.e. she was raped.

But at the same time, if a man gets drunk, and has sexual activity, but the woman objects afterward, the law presumes that if he had sex, that he IS responsible and his impairment (being drunk) is not valid and he is therefore accountable. i.e. he is a rapist.

So if two people get drunk and have sex, excusing accountability due to impairment of judgement (being drunk) only applies to the woman and not the man.

That's a little one sided.

Rape, like other violent crimes, is a horrible thing and no victim ever deserves it. But when alcohol (or drugs) becomes involved, the rules seem to change and not change equally.

In the eyes of the law, a drunk woman does not give consent but a drunk man does.

I don't know what the answer is, or should be other than people should not get drunk (that's pretty realistic).

Well lets face it, there are lots of predatory males out there (how many guys do you know that will hang out late at bars hoping to pick up the drunk chick and you know...). Many will take advantages of moments of weakness. Generally in most cases there has to be compelling evidence to get a rape conviction as otherwise it is still he said/she said, like if their are witnesses to say that she was too drunk to legally consent.

As for men getting drunk, that generally isn't an acceptable excuse for committing any kind of crime. It is also pretty unusual for a conviction (or even a court case to happen) if both parties are drunk. Plus also don't forget how many men tend to act when drunk.

Lastly, how often does it happen when a woman rapes a man? It is extremely rare by most statistics, even factoring in huge levels of non reporting. Lets face facts, probably over 99% of rapes are committed by males.



Anyhow, if any of you have any questions about suicide, depression, warning signs, and what to do, feel free to ask here and I will do my best to answer as I have time.

[Feuer Frei!]

Thanks for some valuable inside information on this Neon