Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly?

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Legal or not, if they cannot do the speed limit, they should not be there any more than pedestrians. Use something called the sidewalk.

That's a horrible idea. Bikes are so quiet that pedestrians don't know that they're there until they're right next to them (if they approach from behind).

If there are no bike paths, and the shoulder is occupied by parked cars (as it always is in a city), then biking will be impossible if you can't use the road. And given the typical underfunding of public transportation in the US, and the usual braindead anti-pedestrian planning, you'll be forced to buy a motor vehicle - and do your bit to contributing to traffic congestion, pollution, global warming and the overuse of fossil fuels.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Well unless we adopt Vermonts old traffic law of requiring a flag man to walk 50ft out in front of every automobile to warn off other traffic, accidents will continue to happen no matter how careful car and truck drivers may be.

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.

I'd like to see them reconfigure existing pedestrian sidewalks into allow dual use and build more Bike/pedestrian only pathways. They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.

As I said, build a parallel infrastructure for bicycles, okay. We did it over here. Seopaarte lanes on the road, additonal lanes that were build, combined pedestrian-bike-lanes with extra width, roads for bikes (cars banned if people do not live there). The network is over 500 km in total length, town and surrounding area.

Where ther eis no such bike-infrastructure, bikes use the road. Where there is no pedestrian lane, pedestrians use roads, the sidelines, though. It'S daily business all over in Germany, even on Landstrassen.

Just ordering bikes onto the pedestrian's sidepath, does not work for an additional reason: at every corner there would be the need to stop and get off, due to the heigth of the curbstones. You would need to have construction work getting done again. And if you do that, then you can go one step further and also invest into building a whole bicycle lane.

Point is: you weant bikes off main traffic streets - then you have to offer reasonable alternatives. I am not eager to get stuck in the smog and jams on a main traffic street at rush hour, I happily use an alternative lane. But if there is none, then I am not shy to jump right into the middle of the hotcooking traffic. But I be predictable, defensively, and careful, and I establish eye contact with drivers whereever possible. I hardly, if ever, get an angry look. Truth is: problems are set up by - other aggressive bicycle drivers, almost never by car drivers.

In places where there are no bicycle lanes, car drivers must be prepared to interct with bicycle on the road. Idf theyx cannot be that or do not want to be like that, then they should give back their driving licences, for by character they probably are not suited to command a rolling potential wepaon. To some degree, driving styles of car drivers reflect their personality and emtional status. And that of bicycle riders as well.

Accidents will happen, but if bikes therefore must be banned, then much faster moving motorbikes must be banned as well by your logic, and small cars, since a truck or a SUV will just smash and crush them, too. All rolling traffic should be done in huge trucks or APC only, then. And even then a crash will hurt and kill people.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

That's a horrible idea. Bikes are so quiet that pedestrians don't know that they're there until they're right next to them (if they approach from behind).

Ah, so bicycle riders cannot take care not to hit slower moving traffic?

[August]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

What many drivers seem to ignore when going on a crusade against cyclists is this:

A couple things with that though.

First what may work in Finland isn't necessarily possible here. I live 20 miles away from my job and my our standards that's a fairly short commute, most of it on 40 and 50mph roads that hardly has a shoulder let alone a bike lane. At age 52 I am not doing a 40 mile a day bike trip to get to work.

Second I don't want to be packed in like canned herring with a bunch of smelly strangers. Look at the street where those pictures were taken. People living cheek to jowl with not a single tree in sight or blade of grass in sight. There is no amount of money in the world that would make me give up my back yard for the concrete jungle.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by August

They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.

Iowa has quite a few similar bike trails that link a whole bunch of communities together. A lot of them follow old rail lines.

http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/trails/trails.asp


When the weather warms up I might take my bike down a few of those.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Just ordering bikes onto the pedestrian's sidepath, does not work for an additional reason: at every corner there would be the need to stop and get off, due to the heigth of the curbstones. You would need to have construction work getting done again. And if you do that, then you can go one step further and also invest into building a whole bicycle lane.

You folks don't have wheelchair accessible sidewalks? Over here nearly every corner and crosswalk has a ramp that is easily negotiated by a bicycle.

[August]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

That's a horrible idea. Bikes are so quiet that pedestrians don't know that they're there until they're right next to them (if they approach from behind).

But if a person walking out in the open can't detect the approach of a bicycle then how can we expect the driver inside a car to do any better?

I do however have a solution that might work with pedestrians though.

Two words: Baseball cards.

Yep, clothespin a few of your doubles into the tire spokes of a bike and a pedestrian would have to be deaf not to hear it coming! I advocate a similar solution for those quiet hybrid and electric cars which have been sneaking up on walkers lately.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by August

But if a person walking out in the open can't detect the approach of a bicycle then how can we expect the driver inside a car to do any better?

You, my friend, should be a lawyer.



Oh wait, I was planning to ban you for that Suzuki crack....

[August]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

You, my friend, should be a lawyer.



Oh wait, I was planning to ban you for that Suzuki crack....

But i've owned two Zukes so I get to badmouth them and got the broken bones and road rash to illustrate it!

But if you want real insults let me tell you my Saab Story some time. A 1974 99EMS is not a car built for long distances.

[Skybird]

Electric pedelecs, as they are called, and electric choppers (Vespa style, not helicopters). Scooters they are getting called also, could that be? For urban traffic, the daily pendling in town, these are great things. Batteries need to become a bit more potent though. The big metropoles will see more traffic in the future, and more people moving there, so solutions and concepts to get rid of the ridiculously high car drensity are in urgent need. Small vehicles that are a hybrid between bicycles, tribikes and a small car like the Smart, could be a solution, maybe.

Kettweasels with battery, so to speak. I wonder if Kettweasel maybe already has developed one.

In Germany, pedelecs limited to a top speed with motor assistance of 25 km/h, are free and are treated as normal bicycles, beyond that speed (motor assistance even beyoind 25 km/h) they need a tax plate, and helm, and must use the road, since they are treated as choppers/scooters then. A license then also is obligatory (normally included in the normal car license).

[u crank]

This thread has me thinking about the subject of safety and personal responsibility. I grew up in the era of no seat belts, bicycle helmets etc. I remember going on family vacations, my two brothers and I in the back seat of the family sedan. We could wrestle, stand up and every once in a while Dad would yell, "hey light me a cigarette!" Not kidding. We felt safe because I think for the most part we were.

On the other hand, today people walk on the side of the road texting on their phones. They drive around with small dogs on their lap. They ride bicycles while listening to music. And yes they drive cars as if they have a divine right to the road. I lived in Toronto for several years and I could cross any street without stopping traffic. Today I see people standing by the side of a street waiting to cross. And I don't mean kids, these are adults. You have to stop for them. This is not at a crosswalk. Have we lost some kind of basic skill here? Maybe I'm just an old guy who's out of touch but people seem more reckless, yet less skilled at common sense issues.

Is it just me?

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by u crank

Is it just me?

Or idiocracy?

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Ah, so bicycle riders cannot take care not to hit slower moving traffic?

Most cars are incapable of instantaneous stops or sudden turns.

They cannot enter the flow of traffic without yielding.

They also normally all travel in the same direction in their lane.

They also normally have brake lights.


None of which applies to pedestrians.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by August

But if a person walking out in the open can't detect the approach of a bicycle then how can we expect the driver inside a car to do any better?

Yep, clothespin a few of your doubles into the tire spokes of a bike and a pedestrian would have to be deaf not to hear it coming! I advocate a similar solution for those quiet hybrid and electric cars which have been sneaking up on walkers lately.

I agree. If bikes are to be relegated to sidewalks, then I think noisemakers should be compulsory.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

But at least cars can make it up to 30mph (if you give them enough time), bicycles are very slow, and hard to see. It's not a crusade against bicycles, but be realistic--people are not going to switch in mass to pedaling along at 15mph when they have to transit 20 miles.

...

And bigger does = right of way, remember rule #2

Ah yeah, I forgot that you ride a lot too, just on a different kind of platform. More speed but just as unprotected. Really motivates you to have those eyes in the back of the head, eh?

I agree that people aren't ever going to commute 20 miles on bikes en masse, but then again such distances aren't really optimal for biking vs. other means of transportation what comes to time used, an important factor when commuting. Bikes shine as commuters in cramped city centers where the average commute is a lot less than 20 miles. Not that it's easy to motivate people to pedal even that kind of distance: I'm currently studying for a profession where staying fit is of utmost importance for getting the job done, certain requirements even come straight from the law, and yet only a few on the course or those already on the profession commute by pedaling or running. Especially during the winter I get those "Dude, what planet did you come from?" looks when arriving at school.

@August:
What you're seeing in the pic I posted is a pretty average European city center. In Finland we don't build them quite that cramped, but close. If people didn't commute using their feet, bikes and public transportation we'd drown in cars in no time. At least in Helsinki it's demonstrated every time the bus, tram and metro drivers go on a strike: Vehicles start queing up way outside the suburbs and it takes hours to make it to the city center. The next strike is coming up in a week or so by the way. I'll try to get some pics so you'll see that California isn't only place where the traffic is sometimes just impossible.