Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly?

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Maybe car drivers need to alter their attitude of mind. You guys just illustrate it: you seriously claim an exclusive right of cars for streets and roads.

A drivers "attitude" has nothing to do with it. It's only common sense that you segregate vehicles of such radically different size and speed.

As Mookie points out bicyclists are prevented from riding on sidewalks because of the danger to pedestrians so should roads be reserved for cars and trucks.

[yubba]

Back in January I got hit by a US Mail truck, don't know how she didn't see me along the street ride-ing toward her as she was turning right, that was right into to me it was a slow hit but it knock me 10 feet off my seat into a grassy bank, no injuries to bad for me missed the lottery, people say I should ride with the flow of traffic, not on your life I'm going to have my back to these distracted drivers I'm going to be looking right into the eyes of the moron that hits me.

[soopaman2]

I do not wish to start a crapstorm, but being a city driver, I kinda hate bicyclists.

They hold laws that protect them more than car drivers, yet do not eat the same dooky-pie, that a driver does for running red lights and stop signs.

They run a stop sign, car plows into them, and local press kills the driver as some maniac. When they were simply obeying laws of the road.


Spend A week in NYC, and see the crap the couriers pull in traffic, and get a free pass on, before you critisize me.

Then again with all of Bloomburgs crap, this will be judged ok, just like his 3rd term that he critisized Rudy Guiliani over, when he was city council...Oh no I insulted a loved politician.! (who owns his own news outlet)

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Legal or not, if they cannot do the speed limit, they should not be there any more than pedestrians. Use something called the sidewalk.

That's what common sense should dictate, but something must be overriding their common sense. Won't catch me playing around in traffic on a bicycle, that's for sure. I don't trust other drivers.

I give a wide berth to any cyclists I see on the road. Sure they don't belong on a 45mph industrial access road. But it's their life on the line and they're free to ride that road with the dump trucks and semis if that's what they really want to do. Crazy SOB's.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I do not wish to start a crapstorm, but being a city driver, I kinda hate bicyclists.

They hold laws that protect them more than car drivers, yet do not eat the same dooky-pie, that a driver does for running red lights and stop signs.

They run a stop sign, car plows into them, and local press kills the driver as some maniac. When they were simply obeying laws of the road.


Spend A week in NYC, and see the crap the couriers pull in traffic, and get a free pass on, before you critisize me.

Then again with all of Bloomburgs crap, this will be judged ok, just like his 3rd term that he critisized Rudy Guiliani over, when he was city council...Oh no I insulted a loved politician.! (who owns his own news outlet)

You would have to ask an LE officer but I am fairly sure that stops signs do apply to those riding bikes so from a legal stand pint if a cyclist rode though a stop sign or traffic light and he got hit it is their fault.

According to this PDF for Florida cops they can enforce the same laws on cyclists so they do have to stop at any stop sign or light at least in FL.Yubba should read the second bullet point in this PDF closely you actually violated a law by the way so you would have gotten nothing sorry and why in the world would you expect anyone to see you if you assume that they are distracted they certainly are not going to be looking for you.Like it says many drivers do not expect to see anything going against traffic flow and you are only on a small bike so all things considered you greatly increase the odds of being hit.

http://ci.ftlaud.fl.us/pedsafety/bicycle_guide.pdf

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Skybird

We have had an interesting experiment in some small towns in germany, I think they tried the same in Denmark or Holland, I am not sure.

They banned all traffic signs, all traffic lights, and lifted all regulations on who can use which poart of the street. Most traffic rules and laws also were lifted. No more "right before left", and so on.

The results were surprising.

The situation meant that everybody took more care, and establioshed eye contact with the others. Everybody was forced to be aware, to be defensive, and passive. Less traffic jams, steeply falling accident rates. A more relaxed traffic climate, people stayed more relaxed. And people: pedestrioans, cars, bicycles, motorbikes, they all formed a self-organising structure by which traffic regulated itself.

It was for the benefit of the single individual and the benefit of all. Possible tough that cars were no longer able to see the road as their private highspeed racetrack pattern. I think that loss is acceptable.

Do that in Florida and we'd all end up dead. LOL

Oh, and I think the average bike rider in FL has lost his driver's license to DUI.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I cycle regularly. Neal, you are absolutely correct. Protocol and rights be damned--the heavier vehicle always has the right of way. Keeping that in mind will always make you a safe rider.

Yes, and that's how bike riders could help themselves. I'm sure many do, but very often I come up behind a fellow who is counting on me to see him. And as a MC rider, that's flirting with disaster. Riding on 2 wheels takes defensive driving to a whole new level; I call it combat riding--it's a fight to the death and I win by not letting them smear me across the tarmac.

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I do not wish to start a crapstorm, but being a city driver, I kinda hate bicyclists.

They hold laws that protect them more than car drivers, yet do not eat the same dooky-pie, that a driver does for running red lights and stop signs.

They run a stop sign, car plows into them, and local press kills the driver as some maniac. When they were simply obeying laws of the road.

It's my goal to avoid hitting any bicycle riders, but I agree with you, they should do their part to make it easier not to hit them.

[Stealhead]

I live in Florida in a rural county and as far I can recall over the past 10 or so years every fatal motor vehicle vs bike incident the cycle rider was found at fault almost every time they where intoxicated or under the influence of some drug.

One guy had actually been charged for a DUI(or what ever riding a bike while intoxicated is it is illegal) but what can they do beyond fine you take your bike away?Anyway this fellow actually had been hit more than once before as well obviously he survived the previous encounters at any rate every time the guy was drunk and all over the road and either suddenly rode into traffic (he always rode at night with no lights of any kind in dark clothing) or rode into the sides of vehicles.


I also have a friend that is a paramedic in volusia county(Daytona Beach) and he says that the overwhelming majority of motor vehicle vs bike accidents are the riders fault or both where at fault.

I am not being anti bike rider but they need to ride safely and extremely defensively like a good motorcyclist does they should assume that no one sees them and always be alert.

[nikimcbee]

I didn't know Texas had those militant biker types, well, maybe in Austin. They're the ones in the video. Yo find them in Seattle, Portlandia, and San Fran.

On a side note Portlandia city council was pushing for some law, where bikers didn't need to stop for stop signs.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

On a side note Portlandia city council was pushing for some law, where bikers didn't need to stop for stop signs.

Is there statute for removing from office due lunacy?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

A drivers "attitude" has nothing to do with it. It's only common sense that you segregate vehicles of such radically different size and speed.

As Mookie points out bicyclists are prevented from riding on sidewalks because of the danger to pedestrians so should roads be reserved for cars and trucks.

Feee free to establish separate sidelanes for bikes, it is common over here anyway.

But where there are no such lanes, bicycles should be forbidden? Well, they are. On Autobahnen.

A sepaarted ölane for bikes, or allowing them to drive on buslanes, is desirable. we even have some streets over here that got turned from car-streets into bicycle streets (I remember the outcry of card drivers when they did that ).

But in towns, ordinary streets that have no sidelanes, may bicycles be allowed to drive there? Yes, absolutely.

And driver attitude has all to do with it. Car drivers can anticipate situation in ntraffic they may be confronted with, or can be arorgant and ignore that, believing they own the road for themsaelves. Like bicycle riders. And like bike riders, card rivers can drive slow, careful and cautiously, or fast, aggressively, and not giving a dman for the other.

There are roads, though, where a bicycle rider may be well-advised to seek for an altenrtaive route. But after 30 years of expereince, I say this: the deciding factor is not so much the ammount of traffic, but the condition of the street surface and the width of the lanes. Of course I know streets where I would not drive althouigh I would be allowed to. But at last over here or even in Berlin, the majority of streets is such that bike-riding can be done easily. As logn as you do not meet Rambo on wheels, of course. But then the problem is not the bike, but Rambo, and he poses a thread not just to bikes, but tpo pedestrians and other cars as well. Again- the attitude is what decides it.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And driver attitude has all to do with it. Car drivers can anticipate situation in ntraffic they may be confronted with, or can be arorgant and ignore that, believing they own the road for themsaelves. Like bicycle riders. And like bike riders, card rivers can drive slow, careful and cautiously, or fast, aggressively, and not giving a dman for the other..

Well unless we adopt Vermonts old traffic law of requiring a flag man to walk 50ft out in front of every automobile to warn off other traffic, accidents will continue to happen no matter how careful car and truck drivers may be.

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.

I'd like to see them reconfigure existing pedestrian sidewalks into allow dual use and build more Bike/pedestrian only pathways. They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by August

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.

Exactly!

Example: To enter my subdivision on way home from work I have to make a left turn across two lanes of traffic. The posted speed limit is 70 km/hr. Most people are doing 80 or more. On more than one occasion I have been behind bikers trying to make this turn. Crazy! I just close my eyes and pray. And it's unnecessary. There's a side walk on the other side of the road.

Cyclists should not be competing for the same road space with cars. Period!

[Fincuan]

What many drivers seem to ignore when going on a crusade against cyclists is this:


I own one car and three bikes, and choose to ride a bike whenever I can. Not for environmental or ideological reasons, but because it's the fastest and most convenient means of transportation in my city and also provides plenty of "free" excercise in place of hours spent sitting in a car or a bus. My daily commute is normally 10-20 km each way. Whenever it isn't possible to use a bike, for example when I'm going to an important meeting at a place where it isn't possible to shower and change clothes, I use public transportation. The car is 2001 model and only used for occasional climbing trips and other road trips. Given how much I've been using it I'll most likely sell it during the summer. It's just easier and cheaper to rent or borrow one when I need it.

Finnish winter isn't a big problem when you use a fatbike as your main commuter. You just need to leave a bit earlier when there's lots of snow and put a little bit of thought on what you wear. The bikepaths and -lanes are maintained year around, and even after the worst snowshowers the most important transportation veins are cleared by early afternoon. Not that an uncleared one is a huge obstacle when riding a fatbike.

I mainly ride on the parts of the road network designed for bikes, but sometimes it just isn't possible or safe. I try to avoid riding among the cars as far as possible, mainly because of the already mentioned laws of physics and the "bigger size gives you the right of way"-attitude of some drivers. I just don't feel safe doing it when there's lots of traffic. At times you just don't have a real choice, for example when you ride in the city center with plenty of pedestrians all over the place, including the parts meant for cars and bikes. Winter maintenance is also sometimes an issue. Not the lack of it, but the way it's done: Snow is plowed off the main lanes and onto the bicycle lanes. Even a fatbike won't carry you over half a meter layer of soft sludge.

Would you prefer your daily commute to be this(pic not mine)?


or this(a real pic from my ride home)?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by August

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then.

That's pretty much the reality. May as well argue that skateboarders and speedjoggers have a right to clog up the road.

Fincuan, I agree with you about cars clogging up the road, I agree 100%. As a motorcycle rider, I spend plenty of time waiting patiently for slow-witted drivers to get out of the way. But at least cars can make it up to 30mph (if you give them enough time), bicycles are very slow, and hard to see. It's not a crusade against bicycles, but be realistic--people are not going to switch in mass to pedaling along at 15mph when they have to transit 20 miles.

They aren't going to switch to motorcycles either, which would be the ideal situation

I try to avoid riding among the cars as far as possible, mainly because of the already mentioned laws of physics and the "bigger size gives you the right of way"-attitude of some drivers. I just don't feel safe doing it when there's lots of traffic.

Smart man, that's the way you should feel, cause it's true.

And bigger does = right of way, remember rule #2

In any situation, the car has the right of way. Every vehicle on the road is out to get you. You're a fighter pilot on two wheels and you better start thinking like one. No matter who has the red light, stop sign, or right of way, it's your responsibility as a motorcycle rider (or bicycle rider) to see the enemy, anticipate his every move, and keep yourself out of his grill. If you have an accident, it's always through your lack of skill, caution, and awareness. It's always your fault.