Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly?

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And driver attitude has all to do with it. Car drivers can anticipate situation in ntraffic they may be confronted with, or can be arorgant and ignore that, believing they own the road for themsaelves. Like bicycle riders. And like bike riders, card rivers can drive slow, careful and cautiously, or fast, aggressively, and not giving a dman for the other..

Well unless we adopt Vermonts old traffic law of requiring a flag man to walk 50ft out in front of every automobile to warn off other traffic, accidents will continue to happen no matter how careful car and truck drivers may be.

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.

I'd like to see them reconfigure existing pedestrian sidewalks into allow dual use and build more Bike/pedestrian only pathways. They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by August

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.

Exactly!

Example: To enter my subdivision on way home from work I have to make a left turn across two lanes of traffic. The posted speed limit is 70 km/hr. Most people are doing 80 or more. On more than one occasion I have been behind bikers trying to make this turn. Crazy! I just close my eyes and pray. And it's unnecessary. There's a side walk on the other side of the road.

Cyclists should not be competing for the same road space with cars. Period!

[Fincuan]

What many drivers seem to ignore when going on a crusade against cyclists is this:


I own one car and three bikes, and choose to ride a bike whenever I can. Not for environmental or ideological reasons, but because it's the fastest and most convenient means of transportation in my city and also provides plenty of "free" excercise in place of hours spent sitting in a car or a bus. My daily commute is normally 10-20 km each way. Whenever it isn't possible to use a bike, for example when I'm going to an important meeting at a place where it isn't possible to shower and change clothes, I use public transportation. The car is 2001 model and only used for occasional climbing trips and other road trips. Given how much I've been using it I'll most likely sell it during the summer. It's just easier and cheaper to rent or borrow one when I need it.

Finnish winter isn't a big problem when you use a fatbike as your main commuter. You just need to leave a bit earlier when there's lots of snow and put a little bit of thought on what you wear. The bikepaths and -lanes are maintained year around, and even after the worst snowshowers the most important transportation veins are cleared by early afternoon. Not that an uncleared one is a huge obstacle when riding a fatbike.

I mainly ride on the parts of the road network designed for bikes, but sometimes it just isn't possible or safe. I try to avoid riding among the cars as far as possible, mainly because of the already mentioned laws of physics and the "bigger size gives you the right of way"-attitude of some drivers. I just don't feel safe doing it when there's lots of traffic. At times you just don't have a real choice, for example when you ride in the city center with plenty of pedestrians all over the place, including the parts meant for cars and bikes. Winter maintenance is also sometimes an issue. Not the lack of it, but the way it's done: Snow is plowed off the main lanes and onto the bicycle lanes. Even a fatbike won't carry you over half a meter layer of soft sludge.

Would you prefer your daily commute to be this(pic not mine)?


or this(a real pic from my ride home)?

[August]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

What many drivers seem to ignore when going on a crusade against cyclists is this:

A couple things with that though.

First what may work in Finland isn't necessarily possible here. I live 20 miles away from my job and my our standards that's a fairly short commute, most of it on 40 and 50mph roads that hardly has a shoulder let alone a bike lane. At age 52 I am not doing a 40 mile a day bike trip to get to work.

Second I don't want to be packed in like canned herring with a bunch of smelly strangers. Look at the street where those pictures were taken. People living cheek to jowl with not a single tree in sight or blade of grass in sight. There is no amount of money in the world that would make me give up my back yard for the concrete jungle.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by August

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then.

That's pretty much the reality. May as well argue that skateboarders and speedjoggers have a right to clog up the road.

Fincuan, I agree with you about cars clogging up the road, I agree 100%. As a motorcycle rider, I spend plenty of time waiting patiently for slow-witted drivers to get out of the way. But at least cars can make it up to 30mph (if you give them enough time), bicycles are very slow, and hard to see. It's not a crusade against bicycles, but be realistic--people are not going to switch in mass to pedaling along at 15mph when they have to transit 20 miles.

They aren't going to switch to motorcycles either, which would be the ideal situation

I try to avoid riding among the cars as far as possible, mainly because of the already mentioned laws of physics and the "bigger size gives you the right of way"-attitude of some drivers. I just don't feel safe doing it when there's lots of traffic.

Smart man, that's the way you should feel, cause it's true.

And bigger does = right of way, remember rule #2

In any situation, the car has the right of way. Every vehicle on the road is out to get you. You're a fighter pilot on two wheels and you better start thinking like one. No matter who has the red light, stop sign, or right of way, it's your responsibility as a motorcycle rider (or bicycle rider) to see the enemy, anticipate his every move, and keep yourself out of his grill. If you have an accident, it's always through your lack of skill, caution, and awareness. It's always your fault.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

But at least cars can make it up to 30mph (if you give them enough time), bicycles are very slow, and hard to see. It's not a crusade against bicycles, but be realistic--people are not going to switch in mass to pedaling along at 15mph when they have to transit 20 miles.

...

And bigger does = right of way, remember rule #2

Ah yeah, I forgot that you ride a lot too, just on a different kind of platform. More speed but just as unprotected. Really motivates you to have those eyes in the back of the head, eh?

I agree that people aren't ever going to commute 20 miles on bikes en masse, but then again such distances aren't really optimal for biking vs. other means of transportation what comes to time used, an important factor when commuting. Bikes shine as commuters in cramped city centers where the average commute is a lot less than 20 miles. Not that it's easy to motivate people to pedal even that kind of distance: I'm currently studying for a profession where staying fit is of utmost importance for getting the job done, certain requirements even come straight from the law, and yet only a few on the course or those already on the profession commute by pedaling or running. Especially during the winter I get those "Dude, what planet did you come from?" looks when arriving at school.

@August:
What you're seeing in the pic I posted is a pretty average European city center. In Finland we don't build them quite that cramped, but close. If people didn't commute using their feet, bikes and public transportation we'd drown in cars in no time. At least in Helsinki it's demonstrated every time the bus, tram and metro drivers go on a strike: Vehicles start queing up way outside the suburbs and it takes hours to make it to the city center. The next strike is coming up in a week or so by the way. I'll try to get some pics so you'll see that California isn't only place where the traffic is sometimes just impossible.

[Skybird]

Only John Wayne on horse and with a Winchester shall be allowed on roads.

[mapuc]

This eternal battle between motorists and cyclists are not restricted to America, I can understand.

Ever since I took my license, I have been interested in the psychological part of driving.

I ride my bike very much and I am very aware of my road safety.

I tend also to be aware of others' driving psychology.
It has happened that I went up to my old driving instructors and asked him if every men have this "built in" needs to show off when they have female and or male passengers with them.

Have also been aware of the soft traffic ancestors and it is frightening to see how they behave in traffic.
That we (Denmark and Sweden) do not have thousands of dead or injured cyclists / walking, they can thank their luck and that most of the DRIVERS do SEE where they drive


Sometime in mid or late 80s There was in Sweden talks about introducing psychological tests of upcoming male motorists. This proposal failed to win sympathy of the politicians. The reason would be that they had estimated that, up to 90-95% of the 18-year-old would not be suitable for driving a car. (They would use the same type of psychological test as the Swedish Air Force use)

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I tend also to be aware of others' driving psychology.
It has happened that I went up to my old driving instructors and asked him if every men have this "built in" needs to show off when they have female and or male passengers with them.
(...)
Sometime in mid or late 80s There was in Sweden talking about introducing psychological tests of upcoming male motorists. This was never up to the first treatment in the Riksdag. The reason would be that they had counted up to 90-95% of the 18-year-old would not be suitable for driving a car. (They would use the same type of psychological test as the Swedish Air Force use)

Markus

Psychologically and physiologically as well, young males are indeed hormone junkeys. It makes them more aggressive, more willing to accept risks and behave in a risky manner, more provoking regarding conflict situations, more boasting in general attitude - and very vulnerable to the experience of speed. It's the same what you see when the male paradise bird spreads its feathers to attract a female birds. You see, in the end we are just talking animals. That is the reason why boys try to attract girls by risky behaviour, by stunts being done, and by their driving style. It is not just lacking experience why young drivers cause more accidents than other age groups, and here the boys more than the girls. Boy sees girl, and the chemical switches flip - you cannot avoid it, that is how the biological hardware got designed by ol' mother nature. It'S all about hormones and neurotransmitter levels.

[mapuc]

Skybird, Even elder does it. I Have experience from that.

Here's A sad stories my little sister, were witnesses to.

A young guy was driving in the opposite lane and the car passed her and some young girls who was standig outside a small store and talking.

This young guy, drove up to a T-junction took the left and drove back by a parallell road. When he came back to the same road again, he pushed the speedometeren and drove at full speed past these young girls, that he would impress on. This young guy had apparently miscalculated the road's length. Because he failed to stop when he, once again reached the this T-junction. He slammed straight into the side of one of the local buses. He died on the spot

This happened many years ago, sometimes in the 90's

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Well unless we adopt Vermonts old traffic law of requiring a flag man to walk 50ft out in front of every automobile to warn off other traffic, accidents will continue to happen no matter how careful car and truck drivers may be.

Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.

I'd like to see them reconfigure existing pedestrian sidewalks into allow dual use and build more Bike/pedestrian only pathways. They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.

As I said, build a parallel infrastructure for bicycles, okay. We did it over here. Seopaarte lanes on the road, additonal lanes that were build, combined pedestrian-bike-lanes with extra width, roads for bikes (cars banned if people do not live there). The network is over 500 km in total length, town and surrounding area.

Where ther eis no such bike-infrastructure, bikes use the road. Where there is no pedestrian lane, pedestrians use roads, the sidelines, though. It'S daily business all over in Germany, even on Landstrassen.

Just ordering bikes onto the pedestrian's sidepath, does not work for an additional reason: at every corner there would be the need to stop and get off, due to the heigth of the curbstones. You would need to have construction work getting done again. And if you do that, then you can go one step further and also invest into building a whole bicycle lane.

Point is: you weant bikes off main traffic streets - then you have to offer reasonable alternatives. I am not eager to get stuck in the smog and jams on a main traffic street at rush hour, I happily use an alternative lane. But if there is none, then I am not shy to jump right into the middle of the hotcooking traffic. But I be predictable, defensively, and careful, and I establish eye contact with drivers whereever possible. I hardly, if ever, get an angry look. Truth is: problems are set up by - other aggressive bicycle drivers, almost never by car drivers.

In places where there are no bicycle lanes, car drivers must be prepared to interct with bicycle on the road. Idf theyx cannot be that or do not want to be like that, then they should give back their driving licences, for by character they probably are not suited to command a rolling potential wepaon. To some degree, driving styles of car drivers reflect their personality and emtional status. And that of bicycle riders as well.

Accidents will happen, but if bikes therefore must be banned, then much faster moving motorbikes must be banned as well by your logic, and small cars, since a truck or a SUV will just smash and crush them, too. All rolling traffic should be done in huge trucks or APC only, then. And even then a crash will hurt and kill people.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Just ordering bikes onto the pedestrian's sidepath, does not work for an additional reason: at every corner there would be the need to stop and get off, due to the heigth of the curbstones. You would need to have construction work getting done again. And if you do that, then you can go one step further and also invest into building a whole bicycle lane.

You folks don't have wheelchair accessible sidewalks? Over here nearly every corner and crosswalk has a ramp that is easily negotiated by a bicycle.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by August

They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.

Iowa has quite a few similar bike trails that link a whole bunch of communities together. A lot of them follow old rail lines.

http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/trails/trails.asp


When the weather warms up I might take my bike down a few of those.