Thank you Governor Perry

[diluvian]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

I have asked this before and have not get real response so I ask this from you as well. What you mean with "socialism"? I assume that you do not mean traditional definition of socialism found from Wikipedia for example.

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I'll even expand. My wife got her start as a supermarket cashier (she manages it now)
Her first shift was the overnights, and on the first and third people would flock in with the welfare cards. Buy enough packs of 25 cent gum to empty the thing, then give it to the drug dealers they owed right in the store. Very few bought food, and when they did, it was expensive name brand crap. Candy, lobster tails and angus steaks.

I can barely afford that crap! I got to pay my way!

That is where socialism fails.

Then there is my friend Roger. Master welder, laid off, and denied benifits because he had 10k in a saving account. Thats what you get for being honest in this country.

The 10k is long gone, and they still resist giving him anything because they think his wifes 30k a year job can pay the bills, and care for his 2 kids.

That is where it fails.


So yes a double edged sword.

those are some honest examples that hit the nail square on the head

[Respenus]

While I unfortunately do not have the time to go into a long theoretical discussion, I would only like to point one thing out. Do not mistake attempts by governments for what the idea(ls) calls for. @soopaman2, this is a very unfortunate case, but I'm not surprised that the system hasn't been set up to ensure proper social assistance (ie. help the family that is struggling on one breadwinner). In the end, it all depends on how the law was written and how it is implemented, which in this case is badly. This doesn't mean however, that everyone getting help is acting the same way. You don't throw away the entire crop because of one rotten apple. You make sure that either it doesn't happen (which requires continuous control and in the short term, high expenses, which are then reduced as people internalize the new rule set) or you get rid of the apple(s), which usually has long-term negative consequences.

@diluvian, your example of a school applying the supposed ideas of socialism in the test exams runs against its very logic. The idea here is to allow everyone to achieve by their own merit the advancement in life, not to blindly redistribute in the name of an equal society. Yes, in order to achieve an even starting field, resources have to be distributed, but not in this sense. Marx's idea was: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Now while this can be interpreted in many different, especially negative ways, let us, for the sake of argument accept this statement as something meant for the common good of ALL human beings, regardless of other factors.

So to recap, there is a difference between implementation, policy preposition by different groups and the ideas behind it all. Oh and welfare policies in a strictly capitalist system are not socialism. Welfare state=/social democracy=/socialism.

[soopaman2]

My points was simply to show I understand the extreme good, and bad of a caring society.

I see diluvinans point as well, there will always be more leechers, and gamers of the system.

it is those people who jeopardaize the welfare of the truly needy.

No American I know will let someone who wants to work starve, but there is too many folks who give nothing, which is why the sytem fails.

Public assistance should be an emergency, and not a way of life. I truly get that. But what I fear from republicans is that they will cut the nose of to spite the face.

Then give subsidies (i.e corporate welfare) to farmers to grow dead corn for ethanol. Or tell GE they do not have to pay taxes. Or tell Goldman Sachs, they can give bonuses after being bailed out. etc...

America first, and real Americans first.

Pardon me, I forgot corps are people now...

They won't be people to me until Texas executes one or many.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

GOP field is just a total trainwreck, no?

That is an insult to train wrecks.

Respenus, you need to simplify it to a level that works.
socialism = government welfare I don't like or don't get.
non-socialism=government welfare I do like or do get.
It works with taxes too.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Respenus, you need to simplify it to a level that works.
socialism = government welfare I don't like or don't get.
non-socialism=government welfare I do like or do get.
It works with taxes too.

I chuckled at this as it makes a great point.

Government welfare is not limited to the poor or lazy. But to Farmers (estate corporate co-ops, not Ma and Pa Brown types) To oil companies (hi Exxon, BP, Conoco-Phillips, I'll even throw in Solyndra), bankers *cough* banksters. (Uncle sam bends over and really takes it from them, and moans in pleasure while they do it.)


Hey now they are job creators...




...

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I chuckled at this as it makes a great point.

Government welfare is not limited to the poor or lazy. But to Farmers (estate corporate co-ops, not Ma and Pa Brown types) To oil companies (hi Exxon, BP, Conoco-Phillips, I'll even throw in Solyndra), bankers *cough* banksters. (Uncle sam bends over and really takes it from them, and moans in pleasure while they do it.)


Hey now they are job creators...




...

And now GM is back to the top spot in the automotive industry and have paid back almost all of their bailout money. Boy was I critical of that bailout when it happened, calling it government pork, anti-capitalist and predicting the company's failure. Goes to show what the hell I know.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And now GM is back to the top spot in the automotive industry and have paid back almost all of their bailout money. Boy was I critical of that bailout when it happened, calling it government pork, anti-capitalist and predicting the company's failure. Goes to show what the hell I know.

In true capitalism they would have failed. Same as alot of banks.

Can we call it fascism now? Veiled capitalism is too confusing for the rubes.

I always owned a Ford. Since I was 17. Some meat-head hit my f-150 a few months ago, and I bought a new one. They don't break. They don't even sweat in the snow, and they didn't need a bailout either.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And now GM is back to the top spot in the automotive industry and have paid back almost all of their bailout money. Boy was I critical of that bailout when it happened, calling it government pork, anti-capitalist and predicting the company's failure. Goes to show what the hell I know.

No Takeda - GM paid back the governmental LOANS- a total of about 6.7 Billion. However, GM recieved a total of $52 Billion in bailout funds. They have NOT paid that amount back - nore are there any plans to do so because the remaining $45.3 Billion were free and clear, a true bailout grant.

In April of 2010 GM announced it had "paid back" the bailout money - research showed that was false. Here is some data.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/04/2...ailout-payback

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/gen...ha-dalmia.html

http://www.consumerismcommentary.com...loans-in-full/

When the real data came out - the CEO of GM had to admit that it would take "years" to pay it all back.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...68F2NB20100916

In the end - the President had to admit that the taxpayers were going to lose about $14 billion even after repayment....

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/21/auto...ains/index.htm

Its a net loss regardless..... investment that could have been used elsewhere to save a company that should have gone under. Bailouts are bad - regardless of whether is auto, or finance. And I work for a bank...

Also - yes - a few Billion is a "drop in the bucket" when our national yearly debt is well over a trillion - but until we stop all the drops in that bucket - it will continue to overflow and spill out our debt in ever increasing amounts.

(edited to provide a more trustworthy link on the 14 billion loss)

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

No Takeda - GM paid back the governmental LOANS- a total of about 6.7 Billion. However, GM recieved a total of $52 Billion in bailout funds. They have NOT paid that amount back - nore are there any plans to do so because the remaining $45.3 Billion were free and clear, a true bailout grant.

In April of 2010 GM announced it had "paid back" the bailout money - research showed that was false. Here is some data.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/04/2...ailout-payback

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/gen...ha-dalmia.html

http://www.consumerismcommentary.com...loans-in-full/

When the real data came out - the CEO of GM had to admit that it would take "years" to pay it all back.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...68F2NB20100916

In the end - the President had to admit that the taxpayers were going to lose about $14 billion even after repayment....

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/21/auto...ains/index.htm

Its a net loss regardless..... investment that could have been used elsewhere to save a company that should have gone under. Bailouts are bad - regardless of whether is auto, or finance. And I work for a bank...

Also - yes - a few Billion is a "drop in the bucket" when our national yearly debt is well over a trillion - but until we stop all the drops in that bucket - it will continue to overflow and spill out our debt in ever increasing amounts.

(edited to provide a more trustworthy link on the 14 billion loss)

I guess you're right. I am an idiot. GM is a failure.

[CaptainHaplo]

Your not an idiot Takeda - just you said something that wasn't factual and I think the record ought to be straight. Facts mean something.

GM currently - is going good. Question is, how long? Will it stay that way, or fold again soon?

The idea of capitalism is that a company lives - and dies - on its own merits and abilities. Ford didn't need a bailout - so it is playing on what is technicaly an unlevel playing field. If someone gave Ford 50 Billion for free, I would bet they would be doing fabulous for a while too.

5 -10 years from now will determine the historical view of GM. Until then, the question remains - did we bail out something only to see it fail again?

Like you were - I am against bailouts - let market capitalism work.

As I said - I work for a bank. We didn't get a bailout. We are growing - majorly - because we offer good products and make good business decisions. Thats how capitalism is supposed to work - reward those who offer what the consumer wants and neds the best.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And now GM is back to the top spot in the automotive industry and have paid back almost all of their bailout money. Boy was I critical of that bailout when it happened, calling it government pork, anti-capitalist and predicting the company's failure. Goes to show what the hell I know.

Yea but they produced the Chevy Volt LOL. I have a GM currently, am getting a new car in about a month and will NEVER buy a GM product again, it's my second one and have hated it, they don't last.Maybe their trucks do but I don't drive a truck.

[diluvian]

Originally Posted by Respenus

While I unfortunately do not have the time to go into a long theoretical discussion, I would only like to point one thing out. Do not mistake attempts by governments for what the idea(ls) calls for.

@diluvian, your example of a school applying the supposed ideas of socialism in the test exams runs against its very logic. The idea here is to allow everyone to achieve by their own merit the advancement in life, not to blindly redistribute in the name of an equal society. Yes, in order to achieve an even starting field, resources have to be distributed, but not in this sense. Marx's idea was: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Now while this can be interpreted in many different, especially negative ways, let us, for the sake of argument accept this statement as something meant for the common good of ALL human beings, regardless of other factors.

So to recap, there is a difference between implementation, policy preposition by different groups and the ideas behind it all. Oh and welfare policies in a strictly capitalist system are not socialism. Welfare state=/social democracy=/socialism.

The only reason i gave my example is because someone wondered what i thought socialism meant, My example shows mainly the cons, how the individual is not thought of, it is about equality of the collective - The consequences are less incentive to work [which is debated the very reason communism has failed in every country its been adopted in so far], less competition, the quality of life is lowered to a manageable level , bigger government, and more taxes- much like any modern military with recruits, you strengthen the weak, and weaken the strong, put everyone on the same playing field, you unify them, solidarity

It is a general sense of socialism, the example highlights the cons of socialism while pointing out the main goal of socialism, which is social equality - i dont mention the politics of instating socialist programs, or anything of that nature, i leave that to the socialist schools found around the world, those are their semantics that are highly debated, but i'll pass

" From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." I can somewhat agree with this - As I said i support some of our socialist qualities. [i admit calling them socialist programs is a little strong, as though i was declaring them so, lol, but ours dont follow a completely socialist model- so i'll adopt the word qualities instead]

alot of government programs can be and in some cases do contain characteristics of other forms of economy - socialism and capitalism cannot coexist as they are, sometimes compromises are made from each and thrown together, the result is a mixed economy, some economies are more structured around capitalism, and others socialism - and because of this i made sure to mention we are a mixed economy, as thats the technical name for it, both socialist and social democrats support mixed economies...which speaking of, from a marxist perspective this would be an evolutionary stage between capitalism and socialism, as governments are said to progress through them until communism [but that has failed in every attempt so far] im no marxist, never studied it too in depth, thats just a wild guess

With that said our welfare program is lacking in only one thing to fit the literal modern definition of socialism - it does not completely control our production [our jobs] though it does regulate plenty of sectors, it does not own us -- but in our model of welfare, state government does administrate the production of the collective[in this case our taxes] and handles the distribution of said taxes - but its goal is entirely socialist, being social equality

I certainly wouldn't call our welfare program a capitalist trait, as its more akin to socialism than capitalism - but it cant truly be either one of the two, which ties back to me mentioning mixed economy

As I stated, I agree with the idea of social equality - I'm all for SSI helping the elderly and disabled, prevent them from demographically having large gaps in quality of life compared to other social groups - but alot of the welfare programs here are being overly abused, and at the expense of the individual, which is what my example of tests in school points out

We don't have a big enough 'social safety net' yet to be considered a welfare state, but i've already got my stomach full with what we do have. I'm sure alot of what i had to say is redundant info for you, but im just explaining my thought process - and im done rambling

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The idea of capitalism is that a company lives - and dies - on its own merits and abilities. Ford didn't need a bailout - so it is playing on what is technicaly an unlevel playing field. If someone gave Ford 50 Billion for free, I would bet they would be doing fabulous for a while too.

Someone explain this to our last 2 presidents?

Most of OWS would go home if you ended corporate welfare. I mean, they do not even try to disguise it anymore...

It used to be called subsidies, now they got bold and just called it a bailout.

Socialize the loss, privatize the profit. God bless fascist Italy...Ooopsies, I meant America, the beautifu...Corrup.... unscrupulou..., err uhh ...

Hey at least we aren't Africa,

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Someone explain this to our last 2 presidents?

Most of OWS would go home if you ended corporate welfare. I mean, they do not even try to disguise it anymore...

It used to be called subsidies, now they got bold and just called it a bailout.

Socialize the loss, privatize the profit. God bless fascist Italy...Ooopsies, I meant America, the beautifu...Corrup.... unscrupulou..., err uhh ...

Hey at least we aren't Africa,

I'm sure your Congress is doing their best to correct this.

@diluvian & soopaman2 thank you for explaining your views.