A new urban flight causing problems in Detroit.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

What has that got to do with the price of cheese?
Oh yeah....."So I'm not talking about people who have their situation change"
So given the actual topic..... Are you aware of what percentage of marriages in the US end in divorce?

It has a lot to do with the entire discussion since we went on a (typical) tangent. The bulk of "urban" family units have no father around. The US divorce rate is between 40-50% over a marriage. That says nothing about the number of kids who live in divorced households, as a reasonable % of these divorces happen before kids, or after kids have left the home. Even so, divorced fathers usually maintain connection and financial interest in their children. Women that have litters of kids without ever bothering to get married in the first place are an entirely different problem. Their economic stats are far worse than those of divorced women (the usual primary caregivers).

Fatherlessness (kids born when the mother has never been married to the father) is a huge problem in the black community. Some honest black leaders point this out themselves (on both sides of the political system).

This was about the tangential problem introduced regarding the guy seeking employment far from where he lived by driving 1200 miles.

On topic, it's a little less likely to apply since they are buying houses, which, assuming they can no longer get NINJa loans (No Income, No Job) means they are very likely families so this doesn't apply except in the broad cultural sense since any honest to goodness black families are somewhat rare overall, and exceedingly rare coming from an inner city. This means the kids might have a good family, but their friends back in the 'hood were overwhelmingly likely to not have a relationship with their dads (except maybe knowing he was that 'playa down the block).

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The just world phenomenon at work. Blame the victim. "If you're out of a job, it's because there's something wrong with you and you're lazy."

Maybe you guys should be open to the idea that bad things happen to good people who aren't lazy drains on the welfare rolls. It's not all the fault of the system, and it's not all the fault of the individual.

I can testify to that. I was stricken with a nerve disease, a rare one. I had insurance, disability, etc..Worked for the same company for 20 years. Doctors had no clue, most gave up, said I was stressed, it cost me that job. I opened my own business, still trying to get help and finally got dx a Mayo, but the only cure that helps is if my illness was found at the start. It got worse, in and out of hospitals, lost my DL's and on enough narcotics for pain that would kill an average person.

Instead of using my disability, I continued working as I could, maybe stupid on my part, slowly I made nothing, so I started living off my savings, about 150K. Course I was paying Cobra, almost 1000 a month, with medical bills, that money lasted about a year and half. Next thing I knew I was broke.


Finally one month I was one day late on paying Cobra. Strange, it was due on Monday and I sent it overnight on Friday. I was worried, but told it would show Monday, they said they got it Tuesday and they dropped me. Now I was in trouble. All my specialist dropped me, had no Doctors, lost all my meds, etc...I couldn't get medical insurance anywhere because of pre-existing illness.

My wife was disabled at the time due to a car accident and 4 operations. She was in the middle of the suit process that would take a few years. The Lawyer said we would be fools to settle until all her medical was done and Doctors knew the result. We were in a mess. I now lived off selling anything I had of value, including my large civil war collection. Finally, being broke, she had to move to another state to her sisters with my son.

My home was 7 years from being paid for. I fought to keep it, tried the Obama mod process through Chase bank, too long to explain, but what Chase does is really criminal, I ended up having to file Chapter 13 to save my home, after I was approved for a mod, that later got turned down, but I was never told. A legal aid lawyer saved me from getting tossed out, but still had to file Chapter 13.

Chapter 13 was a mistake, because you have to pay back anyone you owed. Next thing I knew I had close to 400K of medical bills to pay. I didn't understand, but this was 7 years of bills from my illness. If you have insurance, Doctors take what the insurance pays and write off the rest...so you think. Everything Doctors had written off after insurance they are allowed to add back to a chapter 13. My total Chapter 13 payment went to over $5000 a month. I made two payments, then defaulted. I couldn't pay it, I was totally broke.

I often lived in my home without power, often went without food. I couldn't drive anywhere to get help. I also dealt with great pride, me, I would rather die or find a way than go ask for help, One day I woke up in the hospital in ICU. My nerve damage had effected my organs. The stupid state Doctors I go stuck with never had a clue. My neighbor came to check on me and said I was totally incoherrent. I spent 6 weeks in the hospital. Had they done some simple test, no, but would spend over 100K when it became life threatening.

I was finally released, back home to poverty. I got lucky in a sense. The Doctor here contacted the Neuro at Mayo that dx me. They were in a research program with my illness. I was able to go at no charge. The treatment put me in a coma for 12 days, with that and meds they try to reset the way your nerves act. It actually helped, but I was stuck with all the nerve damage. I joined a support group at this time, those people, all ill themselves probably saved me, they checked on me, brought me food, we illegally all shared meds.

My wife came back and went back to work part time as a pro dog show handler. In time we started breeding, etc...It barely paid the bills. She chooses to work in pain herself, but gets by. I opened my business back up, don't make much as I work from home and sub out what work I can get, but who can wait years for SS approval, the money I paid in. We both also work part time doing social work for some different groups trying to get help for the disabled.

I've been through the game. The so called free services, free care at the hospital is a joke. Before you even qualify they drive you into utter poverty. Then all the red tape, hours standing in long lines, dealing with people who are overburdened, Doctors that rush, angry and just throw tons of paperwork for you to fill out. If you're ill, this becomes so burdensome you just say F. it. Only a lucky few have family that help and even they tire out after a few years. It becomes a lonely process. I would've died, starved or probably killed myself had my wife not come back and chosen to live in utter povety with me and slowly we dug out to where now we barely get by.

I have dealt with many like me. Most all were white upper middle class driven into total loss from illness. I check on several that were once happy, now alone, everything lost. Many have been homeless waiting on section 8 housing. I have personally walked in to check and found dead bodies, people in pain without the medical care that couldn't deal with illness and poverty. Often it's not pretty. The total system is designed to push you out, overloaded and just doesn't work.

If you've read this far, one thing I've learned, the system is designed to fail, it's designed to work against the uneducated, you almost have to have lawyers to get through it; it's designed to line the pockets of corporations. The biggest issue of failure is when people lose jobs from illness, they can't afford medical insurance, it's downhill from there. The only help you get is when it's really too late to do you much good. You may think the world will be there to save you, family, friends, God, co-workers, social services, just watch how all slowly vanish as the years go by.

Mine all started by simply falling off a ladder and breaking my arm, some wierd process misfired all my nerves. I never thought I would end up like this, don't think it can't happen to you.

Damn, sorry so long, but I tire of people thinking people deserve it, their refusal to see how a system based on mass profit preys on the ill, people that fail to see the many human and cultural issues forcing millions more into poverty, why corporate america gets even richer...and we have no problem bailing them out.

If you think a family member would not help out then I do not know what to say about your family and experience with them.

Its real world time AVG.
So I am off to Italy for a new job, one brother is in NY, another is in Adelaide , while a third is In Utrecht and a fourth in London, which one do the kids go to?
The old fella of course....ooops Cardiff. in laws ...Yeovil. aunts uncles ......all over the world.
Hey I got an aunt up the road...bugger she is already minding a dozen kids. Wow I got a cousin in town, damn shes off to London next week.

Yes any of them would help out, but this is the real world.
Luckily I spent my life moving and moving and moving for work just like near enough everyone else of my generation and the generations before and now I don't have to.
I know my kids are going to have to move hundreds or thousands of miles away to find decent work.
But this issue is about the intermediate generation who are stuck in a position where they cannot move.
Then again America is different, over there you can rip people off for a fortune and start afresh twelve months later.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Its real world time AVG.
So I am off to Italy for a new job, one brother is in NY, another is in Adelaide , while a third is In Utrecht and a fourth in London, which one do the kids go to?
The old fella of course....ooops Cardiff. in laws ...Yeovil. aunts uncles ......all over the world.
Hey I got an aunt up the road...bugger she is already minding a dozen kids. Wow I got a cousin in town, damn shes off to London next week.

Yes any of them would help out, but this is the real world.
Luckily I spent my life moving and moving and moving for work just like near enough everyone else of my generation and the generations before and now I don't have to.
I know my kids are going to have to move hundreds or thousands of miles away to find decent work.
But this issue is about the intermediate generation who are stuck in a position where they cannot move.
Then again America is different, over there you can rip people off for a fortune and start afresh twelve months later.

If that is your real world I suggest a new world for you. Sorry, I do not know anyone in this 'real world' situation you describe. It looks like a defeatist attitude to me. You look at worst case senario. I look at best case. Some just refuse to look.

Then again America is different, over there you can rip people off for a fortune and start afresh twelve months later.

Yea...ask Bernie Madoff.

[GoldenRivet]

AVG you're right. All some people know is defeat and how to quit.

Those are the types that lose their jobs and jus say "oh well" and sit around waiting for the unemployment check. (which is another thing these jolly jokers aren't considering... That the guy might just have some unemployment money)

Another thing, does nobody have a rainy day fund anymore? Have parents completely stopped teaching work ethic and financial responsibility.

Theoretically, the type of man who wants for himself and his family enough is the type to have a coffee can rainy day fund.

Theoretically -if he just lost his job he has enough credit to pay for the transmission he hypothetically needs.

We could spend all week adding hypotheticals to this little scenario but it won't change the fact that if I lost my job tomorrow and didn't have new work inside of 5 days... I'm researching the job market in another city, loading up the truck, taking my rainy day fund and going to get that job.

Anyone wanting to work and take care of their family can find a way. Those who don't want to... Will piss and moan about the impossibility of it all and turn their backs on all responsibility.

On my first big job interview, I slept in an airport terminal and took a spit bath in a public restroom.
There are those who can do such things... And those who - I guess - feel that society owes them a job, or perhaps the feel above something like sleeping in a car or a 5am spit bath. Who knows why some people just give up like that?

Beats me.

Those who want it bad enough, find a way.

One of the most successful restaurant owners in my town started out homeless in NYC. I refuse to believe success cannot be achieved by ones own initiative.

If that is your real world I suggest a new world for you.

Why? I traveled widely chasing the best money and now I can sit back and relax.
But thats just me, I am lucky, other people have mortages on increrasingly devalued houses and lack the flexibility or reserves to just get up and pack off elsewhere.

Sorry, I do not know anyone in this 'real world' situation you describe.

Maybe you should get out and about more.

It looks like a defeatist attitude to me.

Far from it.

You look at worst case senario. I look at best case. Some just refuse to look.

Isn't it funny how much your "best case" has echoes the very complaints of the "bad case" made in the opening piece.
Its sorta reminiscent to put it back in great depression days of the locals attacking people who had migrated to better areas looking for work and burning people out who were sleeping rough just while they looked for employment.
You seem to be sugar coating reality AVG to make it more palatable

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Why? I traveled widely chasing the best money and now I can sit back and relax.
But thats just me, I am lucky, other people have mortages on increrasingly devalued houses and lack the flexibility or reserves to just get up and pack off elsewhere.


Maybe you should get out and about more.


Far from it.


Isn't it funny how much your "best case" has echoes the very complaints of the "bad case" made in the opening piece.
Its sorta reminiscent to put it back in great depression days of the locals attacking people who had migrated to better areas looking for work and burning people out who were sleeping rough just while they looked for employment.
You seem to be sugar coating reality AVG to make it more palatable

I find your argument in this thread increasing invalid.

But thats just me, I am lucky, other people have mortages on increrasingly devalued houses and lack the flexibility or reserves to just get up and pack off elsewhere.

Sure you can walk away from the mortgage. People are doing it everyday and finding other places to live. The contract for the home states if a certain amount of money is paid per month for a certain amount of years that person can live in the home. The home is soley owned by this person if the payments are met in full. Everyone has the flexability to up and leave with little recourse from the bank. You are left with a mark on your record but as we find it makes little difference. I personally know one that has done this. So as far as getting out in the real world..I live it everyday with my mortgage, business levels dropping, children and all the other plethora of bills associated. I don't sugar coat a thing. I guess you just missed the post were I have done the losing the job not once but twice. The credit hole.

Its sorta reminiscent to put it back in great depression days of the locals attacking people who had migrated to better areas looking for work and burning people out who were sleeping rough just while they looked for employment.

I have know idea how you construed this from anything I have posted. Enjoy your day.

[gimpy117]

Thats how It is armistead...america throws many people under the bus.
I see a lot of people that seem decent, but are in hard times and wonder what happened.

I see homeless who are obviously mentally Ill, and I wonder...why is nobody helping them?

I see 75 year olds working at Meijer and i wonder...why are they working? do they just love it? or paying for pills?

Then I see people in your unfortunate situation, people who are throwing bake sales and benefits to get over illness, flat broke because they're sick.

America Throws these people under the bus, and people in the ghetto are not different. Why does this happen? Because theres no money to be made, no profit margin for time and kindness to help somebody less fortunate than you, no investment return on that homeless man who needed mental care, no dividends from that man who was sick. I think somewhere along the line money got in the way of somebody doing the decent thing.

[Armistead]

Well Gimp, my post was too long for most to read, but I've lived it.

Most wear blinders and look at what they refer to as lazy people taking advantage, not looking at the facts that a larger majority are people with illness. Before the economic meltdown caused by corporations getting rich, over 62% of bankruptcies were due to illness, with most having medical insurance in the beginning, a large percentage middle class.

When you get a serious chronic illness, you'll soon find yourself in serious trouble. Our healthcare is based on mass profits from insurance, to pharma, to overpriced medical care and if you find yourself seriously ill, you'll soon see you don't fit into the profit plan.

Some should look at facts.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/hea...ankruptcy.html

[the_tyrant]

@armistead
I read you long post, thats an amazing story you have there
how are you now? Is your disease cured?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The just world phenomenon at work.

There's a name for that? Hah, color me stupid! The closest approximation I could ever come up with was schadenfreude, but it's not really the same thing. I always figured that phenomenon was just a natural result of millions of years of competitive co-evolution and sexual selection pressure expressing itself, but everyone already knew it so we didn't need a name for it.

This is why I read your posts, Mark. Once again, I can honestly say that I learned something today because of you.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Blame the victim. "If you're out of a job, it's because there's something wrong with you and you're lazy."

Maybe you guys should be open to the idea that bad things happen to good people who aren't lazy drains on the welfare rolls. It's not all the fault of the system, and it's not all the fault of the individual.

Well said, but I would offer the counterpoint that most of "us guys" don't have such an ignorant attitude. For one thing, we know perfectly well that bad things happen to good people, including ourselves. That's what makes people like GoldenRivet so remarkable; they know the risk involved in throwing everything they have into an endeavour, and they do it anyway. Most of the time they fail, but they keep trying. They also provide good work for us lesser mortals in the process, which is why we support them rather than trying to effectively punish them with taxes and restrictions imposed by people who don't create jobs or wealth. You could call the attitude simple, but there is an elegance to simplicity.

Secondly, we are not without consideration for those who fall through the cracks. The most generous contributors to the public welfare are the privately wealthy in every sense. Percentage of income, total amount, effective results, whatever. You name it, they're on top. You might think that the government has contributed more in terms of total wealth donated or total good done, but you'd be wrong. Virtually every cent of what the government contributes is taken from someone. Not earned or generated, but taken, by force if necessary. Even then, it operates at considerable loss.

If that's not enough, just look at the good they have done thus far. The whole reason we are even having this discussion is because the government has failed to do what it promised to do at every level. Two-thirds of the annual taxed income of the wealthiest nation on the planet devoted to entitlements that nobody is happy with!? And you think that the same mechanism that enabled such a thing by promising equality is going to acheive it by imposing penalties on the producers of wealth, as if they had enough wealth to solve the world's woes in the first place?

How can someone intelligent enough to be concerned with the common welfare be so blind to the mechanisms that produce it? I assume that you have a better ideal than free-trade, but I'm curious as to how you would ever manage to implement such a thing without driving trade away in the process.





My dog ate my wealth-generating successful business. Where's yours?

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

@armistead
I read you long post, thats an amazing story you have there
how are you now? Is your disease cured?

No, there is no cure per say. It was called RSD when I got it, more referred to as CRPS now. What happens is a person gets an injury, this sends pain signals to the brain, but for the unlucky few the brain misfires sending pain signals all over the body and nerve death sets in. It's considered the most painful disease known to man, often called the suicide disease.

The only way I could explain it was a frozen burn, like setting outside naked in freezing weather until the cold turns into severe burn, like painful frostbite, cept you can never go inside to get warm. You feel on fire. Mine went systemic, over 80% of my body.

If they figure it out early, they can do nerve blocks and stop it, but it's missed 90% of the time. Usually it takes 5 years before most get a dx.

I keep count, I've had 17 friends over the last seven years commit suicide that were in a few support groups around here. Most give up when pushed into total poverty and lose medical care. Shame, with the proper treatment and pain meds, most live in severe pain, but they can bare it, but you need lot's of money and good medical insurance to get correct help. Just a few months ago I went to check on a man in our group that wouldn't answer his phone. I already knew. Got to his house, door unlocked, found him in the bathtub, shot himself through the heart. Also found out he had been cooking hard dogfood mixed with flour to eat.

There are hundreds of thousands that suffer from such nerve diseases. Most end up in utter poverty and pain, many can't handle both. The fact is these people are discarded by our society. Sadly, strong narcotics are cheap, Neurologist aren't, so many do without.

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by Armistead

No, there is no cure per say. It was called RSD when I got it, more referred to as CRPS now. What happens is a person gets an injury, this sends pain signals to the brain, but for the unlucky few the brain misfires sending pain signals all over the body and nerve death sets in. It's considered the most painful disease known to man, often called the suicide disease.

The only way I could explain it was a frozen burn, like setting outside naked in freezing weather until the cold turns into severe burn, like painful frostbite, cept you can never go inside to get warm. You feel on fire. Mine went systemic, over 80% of my body.

If they figure it out early, they can do nerve blocks and stop it, but it's missed 90% of the time. Usually it takes 5 years before most get a dx.

I keep count, I've had 17 friends over the last seven years commit suicide that were in a few support groups around here. Most give up when pushed into total poverty and lose medical care. Shame, with the proper treatment and pain meds, most live in severe pain, but they can bare it, but you need lot's of money and good medical insurance to get correct help. Just a few months ago I went to check on a man in our group that wouldn't answer his phone. I already knew. Got to his house, door unlocked, found him in the bathtub, shot himself through the heart. Also found out he had been cooking hard dogfood mixed with flour to eat.

There are hundreds of thousands that suffer from such nerve diseases. Most end up in utter poverty and pain, many can't handle both. The fact is these people are discarded by our society. Sadly, strong narcotics are cheap, Neurologist aren't, so many do without.

I don't know what to say.
Well good luck

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

I don't know what to say.
Well good luck

Hehe, wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard that...

I never want pity or sorrow, just wish people would see how failed the system is instead of dealing with it by blaming others without looking at the facts. I have a hard time hearing CEO's of insurance corps, pharma, ect.. getting 15 million dollar bonuses while some poor sick person kills themselves cause they can't afford a Doctor's visit. I'm all for profit, but when corps buy our government to provide mass profit returns over health care, sucks, but that's the american way.
but I'm sure the CEO's wife needs another pair of $5000 shoes.

In the midst of a deep economic recession, America's health insurance companies increased their profits by 56 percent in 2009, a year that saw 2.7 million people lose their private coverage. If you think that's capitalism, good luck, the facts prove it's corporate american buying regulation to make them rich over basic medical care.

Sad to say, I was much the same way before.

[gimpy117]

that story makes me sad on so many levels. America, the richest country in the world, lets our citizens go untreated, and reduced to eating dog food to stay alive.

you are right, the profit based system we have is no way to deal with health. A persons health is a basic need and something that you could almost say is a right. Profit vs. care for a patient will always end up generating conflicts of interest. I too also believe that capitolsim, with some restrictions is a much better system than some form of communism, but making profits on somebody's basic need for health isn't really something i stand for, for the reason of conflict of interest i stated before.