PERFECT SIM! What can we make out of SH5/SH3?

[dcb]

To me, SH5 has the one single thing SH3&4 didn't have: a competent Uboat AI, hence the possibility of wolfpacks that behave like they should (sort of). After bugging and pestering the devs with it last year, after almost forcing them to spend a couple of months to hastily write the code, at a time when this whole feature had been dropped, I think we should give SH5 the chance to become the great sub sim it should have been in the first place. If not for something else, at least for the wolfpacks.

[Hitman]

I think we should give SH5 the chance to become the great sub sim it should have been in the first place. If not for something else, at least for the wolfpacks.

That is right, and of course I hope that SH5 gets further developed by modders, but to answer the question from the OP, I wanted to highlught how much Sh4 was a missed opportunity. Of course Sh5 might become a true star someday, but the thing is, the effort needed to make SH5 shine is proportionally much bigger than with SH4, since for the latter a lot of tools and knowledge from SH3 could be used directly.

[BigBANGtheory]

I am not a passionate modder (yet though I have modded other games), and I would consider myself fairly new to the SilentHunter franchise and can offer a point of view from this part of the comunity.

The PERFECT SIM to me would be playing a DasBoot campaign accurately resembling the mini-TV series and in my opinion (of limited weight granted) that can only be achieved in one of the two games as a base.

I would also wish to contribute to such a mod, and turn from player to modder/player.

[Robin40]

SH5 has a ridiculous campaign and an ominous crew management system

The perfect Sub Sim would be:

SH3+GWX with the graphics of SH5

May the modders gods help us

[urfisch]

very interesting discussion here! thanks for all comments.

Originally Posted by Robin40

SH5 has a ridiculous campaign and an ominous crew management system

The perfect Sub Sim would be:

SH3+GWX with the graphics of SH5

May the modders gods help us

right you are! this would be the best sim ever.

Originally Posted by Hitman

That is right, and of course I hope that SH5 gets further developed by modders, but to answer the question from the OP, I wanted to highlught how much Sh4 was a missed opportunity. Of course Sh5 might become a true star someday, but the thing is, the effort needed to make SH5 shine is proportionally much bigger than with SH4, since for the latter a lot of tools and knowledge from SH3 could be used directly.

yes, hitman. this fact of having a lot more experience in sh3 (sh4) and a lot more possibilities in modding is why i asked myself this question of post no 1 - which game should be used as the core version for further modding on a so called "PERFECT SIM". the overall potential might be much bigger in sh5, i would agree to this point. but we do not have (and i dont think we will ever do) the ability to change things like the game structure itself. how to start missions, manage the whole crew again, etc. and also i have my doubts on beeing able to change/add content. privateer has done a lot on this! but if it will be possible ever, it will take very long. let me explain why...



another fact that makes me feel, sh5 isnt the right choice is, many talented and skilled modders we had in sh3 (or sh4) are not onboard with sh5 any more. so the manpower might be another reason, why sh5 will never reach the state of an sh3. there a so many things still undiscovered, we need some passioned man to deal with ... not spoken of the tools we need to get further on.

why have so many skilled modders left with sh5? cause they where kicked in the ass by ubis "NEW GEN SUBSIM CONCEPT" and the very, very bad support for this game. some german mod group called "aces of the deep clan" has stopped working on their great mod "return of the aces" they started with the release of sh5. official reason is: "the game is so buggy and unfinished, no one of this team is motivated to repair all these errors, before you even can start modding itself". and also the so called "great and easy modability" of sh5, which was highly recommended by ubi, is not what was meant to be.

conclusion: to me sh5 is a big, raw diamond, which is complicated to handle and needs many experts to cut it. we might do have the needed experts, BUT we DO NOT have any more support by ubi - to tell how we should handle the diamond and which tools are used best.

[Nufsed]

conclusion: to me sh5 is a big, raw diamond, which is complicated to handle and needs many experts to cut it. we might do have the needed experts, BUT we DO NOT have any more support by ubi - to tell how we should handle the diamond and which tools are used best.

[/QUOTE]

But!!! We do have TDW.

[Reece]

Originally Posted by urfisch

another fact that makes me feel, sh5 isnt the right choice is, many talented and skilled modders we had in sh3 (or sh4) are not onboard with sh5 any more. so the manpower might be another reason, why sh5 will never reach the state of an sh3. there a so many things still undiscovered, we need some passioned man to deal with ... not spoken of the tools we need to get further on.

why have so many skilled modders left with sh5? cause they where kicked in the ass by ubis "NEW GEN SUBSIM CONCEPT" and the very, very bad support for this game. some german mod group called "aces of the deep clan" has stopped working on their great mod "return of the aces" they started with the release of sh5. official reason is: "the game is so buggy and unfinished, no one of this team is motivated to repair all these errors, before you even can start modding itself". and also the so called "great and easy modability" of sh5, which was highly recommended by ubi, is not what was meant to be.

conclusion: to me sh5 is a big, raw diamond, which is complicated to handle and needs many experts to cut it. we might do have the needed experts, BUT we DO NOT have any more support by ubi - to tell how we should handle the diamond and which tools are used best.

Agree 100%, I have installed SH5 and although there are some fantastic mods the underlying problems of bugs and game play still exist, I would like to see a huge effort in fixing the bugs and releasing an unofficial patch, then start modding on this new version, rather than everyone working around these bugs, IMO!!

[JCWolf]

Originally Posted by Reece

Agree 100%, I have installed SH5 and although there are some fantastic mods the underlying problems of bugs and game play still exist, I would like to see a huge effort in fixing the bugs and releasing an unofficial patch, then start modding on this new version, rather than everyone working around these bugs, IMO!!

Reece my friend...

long time no see !

agree with your post totally.

[Reece]

Originally Posted by JCWolf

Reece my friend...

long time no see !

Good to see you again too, and you as well Jaesen, hope you both had a good Christmas and wish you both a Happy New Year.

[rik007]

At the last day of the year we now can all look back. Everybody is disappointed by SH5. Ubi had everything to make that the perfect Sim. I never understood why they didnot reuse SH3 as a base for SH5 or even SH4. The immersion in SH3 with GWX and other mods such as FM New Interior remains on top. Because it is simple and gives you the best feeling how it should have been some 70 years ago.

My idea (or dream) is that if UBI releases the source-code and tooling for SH3 that we could add the so long missed Wolfpacks, real surface attacks and fixes for the long very well known list of bugs. I'm sure we then will have the ultimate sim.

I wish you all that that happens in 2011 and that the stuck in the middle with the SH-series will end as well as the silence from Ubi. Happy 2011!

[Hitman]

A far better approach would have been, in the known absence of Ubisoft, to develop an unofficial community v1.3 "patch" that focused solely on fixing the bugs, at least those that could be "fixed" by modders. No subjective content, just fixes.

Yup, that's exactly what Webster did for SH4 with his "Game Fixes Only" mod, and it was simply an excellent idea but it sadly lacked success as a "common ground base" because by the time it was complete, many people had not waited and there were already lots of mods around.

Seems that lesson was -like many others- again not learned for SH5

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Reece

Agree 100%, I have installed SH5 and although there are some fantastic mods the underlying problems of bugs and game play still exist, I would like to see a huge effort in fixing the bugs and releasing an unofficial patch, then start modding on this new version, rather than everyone working around these bugs, IMO!!

Yes, that's what I don't understand. Logic would suggest that you'd want to get a solid foundation first before building up into the lofty heights, yet with SH5 we're seeing extensions being built upon extensions. A shame, and with that approach it won't take long before the house of cards starts to fall. I mean, if you are new to SH5 now, there's no simple "add this one mod first as a base to get yourself stable, then choose what you want from this, this, this and this..."; it's just "good luck to ya, here's my random mods list which amazingly works fine for me...but ymmv. Someone will be along shortly to post a completely different mods list for ya".

A far better approach would have been, in the known absence of Ubisoft, to develop an unofficial community v1.3 "patch" that focused solely on fixing the bugs, at least those that could be "fixed" by modders. No subjective content, just fixes.

Yet after nine months we still have largely disparate and peripheral mods, most of which now are mere updates to mods that have been around for most of those nine months; in other words, no recent real big tangible (ie delivered, not just spoken of) breakthroughs (although the additional merchants is a nice start).

What I find poignant is that some of the most staunch defenders of SH5 before its release are now nowhere to be seen. Either they love the game so much that they play it 24/7 and don't have time for a break, or they've silently sunk below the waves. The clock keeps ticking...

[BigBANGtheory]

Originally Posted by Reece

Agree 100%, I have installed SH5 and although there are some fantastic mods the underlying problems of bugs and game play still exist, I would like to see a huge effort in fixing the bugs and releasing an unofficial patch, then start modding on this new version, rather than everyone working around these bugs, IMO!!

This would make a lot of sense after the SH5 Mega-mod is available, since clearly some of the gameplay/bug problems have been fixed or partially fixed.

[Stiebler]

Everybody is disappointed by SH5. Ubi had everything to make that the perfect Sim. I never understood why they did not reuse SH3 as a base for SH5 or even SH4.

The problem was that the development team kept changing between SH3/4/5, and the later devs had difficulty understanding the code of their predecessors. This was stated specifically by one of the ex-devs in the SH5 main thread at SubSim, who used the word 'impossible' to describe the likelihood of any further development of SH5 from the same code base.

I pointed up in the same thread that, logically, this meant that there could never have been any extension pack planned for SH5, despite widespread belief among game players that this was coming next. No one denied the assertion.

You really cannot blame the devs. The most casual survey of threads for SH3, SH4 and SH5 shows that the strongest requirement among the great majority of players is for improved graphics and pointless graphical detail (repositioned flags, repainted propellers, that kind of trivia). Who cares about game play? (excepting a few eccentrics, presumably including the readers of this thread.) The great majority got the logical extension of what they wanted in the end, with SH5. Just sail round and round your home port, admiring the scenery.

My idea (or dream) is that if UBI releases the source-code and tooling for SH3...

Why should they?
You might offer to pay for the code, though. But then, it is unlikely that anyone can understand it now, if the original devs could not.

Stiebler.

[rik007]

Originally Posted by Stiebler

The problem was that the development team kept changing between SH3/4/5, and the later devs had difficulty understanding the code of their predecessors. This was stated specifically by one of the ex-devs in the SH5 main thread at SubSim, who used the word 'impossible' to describe the likelihood of any further development of SH5 from the same code base.

I pointed up in the same thread that, logically, this meant that there could never have been any extension pack planned for SH5, despite widespread belief among game players that this was coming next. No one denied the assertion.

You really cannot blame the devs. The most casual survey of threads for SH3, SH4 and SH5 shows that the strongest requirement among the great majority of players is for improved graphics and pointless graphical detail (repositioned flags, repainted propellers, that kind of trivia). Who cares about game play? (excepting a few eccentrics, presumably including the readers of this thread.) The great majority got the logical extension of what they wanted in the end, with SH5. Just sail round and round your home port, admiring the scenery.

Why should they?
You might offer to pay for the code, though. But then, it is unlikely that anyone can understand it now, if the original devs could not.

Stiebler.

I didnot know & it is a pitty. I do not blame the devs. I understood that development of DirectX prohibited further development of the original code not that it was unstructeredly build and could not be understood anymore. Even though the algorithms could have been reused at least.