Light the blue touch paper and stand well back...

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I'll bet if this thread title was something like, "Acclaimed physicist Stephen Hawking's says God did not create the universe", it would be two, to three pages full of rabid bit chomping already.

Possibly but a name like that would have been dull and too easy. As this famous legend from many a firework is actually quoted by Hawkings himself and in the article I thought it apt. Looks like all the cantakerous ones are on holiday for the weekend.

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427

There are christians that like to say the big bang is entirely possible
it goes something like this


frankly, I applaud that Stephen Hawking is pushing aside the possibility he could go to hell for saying what he's saying. takes guts.

That's no worse than the Norse creation myth.

[Oberon]

The Egyptian cult in Heliopolis has one of the best creation myths I think

But still, what is todays scientific fact may be tomorrows scientific fiction, the big thinkers don't always get it right, some of Einsteins theories are being questioned today IIRC. However, whether it was the work of a God, an alien being or scientific process no one will know for certain, it will be one of those unanswerable questions short of some divine intervention or human mental transcendence.
Personally, I think this universe was created by the collapse of the one before us, and so on and so forth back until the first universe...but the billion dollar question is, what started THAT universe.
We'll never know.

[MH]

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

[yubba]

Originally Posted by MH

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

you' ll have to take that up with him when you get there.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Not sure if its possible to reach the fringe of the universe. Our known universe is based on our ever expanding light horizon- the maximum distance light can travel to us since the start of the universe. If we sent a ship to the edge of that horizon we would find another light horizon of equal size and so on. I think its possible this continues on forever.

Another question to ponder is if you each the edge of matter in the universe (the "farthest star" if you will) does space just stop? Or does hard vacuum continue on forever?

yea made you really wonder what is it like on the fringes of 3 dimensional universe that just didn't exist 1 second before

In my opinion the whole existence or creation as we know it was definitely put in motion and is still in motion which we casually termed as time that is the ability to track changes surrounding and remembering those changes around us,

otherwise this whole grand motion of existence would be unknown, not enjoyable and not witness-able.

We are the spectators of this which was put in motion and which is still in motion, a grand existence in which we partake in this tiny period of time to marvel on it and to become part of it for a little time and to fill it with our consciousness which otherwise would be largely just empty dark void, mindless and soulless and dead. Thus we are in essence the witnesses of this whole creation and both at the same time, the resulting consciousness of this whole creation.

And i just couldn't believe that we are who we are because of some odd accident or a freak coincidence because everything fits beautifully and in a harmonious order, reliable, stable and life sustainable. And because chaos could not create order out of it ever and because nothing only creates nothing and because motion must be started by something and because that something must have implied a beginning and because that beginning is a proof of design judging the results of it and because design implies intelligence I must refuse to accept that this whole marvelous things I'm looking at including my beautiful wife and children as a result of a god damn freak accident.

Just like when you look at a Ferrari, beautiful and functioning and able or with a purpose and enjoyable you must say what a piece of engineering amd you would be nuts if you said it was what it was by itself. Bear this in mind when you're out close with the nature and looking at that mountain or mountain range or the tranquility of that lake or the majesty of the open sea or when just simply staring into the eyes of your loved one. What a piece of engineering!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Castout

In my opinion the whole existence or creation as we know it was definitely put in motion and is still in motion which we casually termed as time that is the ability to track changes surrounding and remembering those changes around us,

otherwise this whole grand motion of existence would be unknown, not enjoyable and not witness-able.

Opinions are nice, and not always to be argued with. Yours is fine, and of course you are free to share it. I personally no longer have an opinion. This is unknown, and I don't see it likely to become known anytime soon.

But...

And i just couldn't believe that we are who we are because of some odd accident or a freak coincidence because everything fits beautifully and in a harmonious order, reliable, stable and life sustainable.

But what we can believe or can't believe is still just opinion. I have no idea whether it could be a freak coincidence or not. Just because there is order is not an explanation of how that order came to be. It's possible we see a creator behind the order because there is one, or it's possible we see that because we want an explanation, even if there isn't one.

And because chaos could not create order out of it ever and because nothing only creates nothing and because motion must be started by something and because that something must have implied a beginning and because that beginning is a proof of design judging the results of it and because design implies intelligence I must refuse to accept that this whole marvelous things I'm looking at including my beautiful wife and children as a result of a god damn freak accident.

How do you know chaos could not create order? How do you know that nothing only creates nothing? None of us were there to see it. With no real evidence, there is no way to know for certain.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know either. I'm just saying that whether we can believe something or not doesn't make it so.

Just like when you look at a Ferrari, beautiful and functioning and able or with a purpose and enjoyable you must say what a piece of engineering amd you would be nuts if you said it was what it was by itself. Bear this in mind when you're out close with the nature and looking at that mountain or mountain range or the tranquility of that lake or the majesty of the open sea or when just simply staring into the eyes of your loved one. What a piece of engineering!

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

[TLAM Strike]

We have found that the ingredients for life are quite common in the universe and may have in fact arrived on this planet from outside sources.

The conditions for life to start may as well be common, astronomers are now discovering terrestrial extrasolar planets with orbits similar to our own.

It may very well be that life is not only abundant but inevitable.

(All due respect to Neil deGrass Tyson, who I just very broadly paraphrased.)

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

How do you know chaos could not create order? How do you know that nothing only creates nothing? None of us were there to see it. With no real evidence, there is no way to know for certain.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know either. I'm just saying that whether we can believe something or not doesn't make it so.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

EXACTLY. A Ferrari is not even created they are produced but not created out of nothing because much less man unable to create anything out of nothing so nothing will certainly not create everything that we know from absolutely nothing.

Though I can swear that I do know God exists I do not know for sure whether God created everything but since I've found to today that nothing is even remotely close to God it would be a safe bet that He did create everything which would explain the legitimacy of God being in authority and the source of all genuine authority as what I've come to understand and know, authority that doesn't intimidate, coerce(God never scare anyone maybe some preachers do but never God), nor one which requires influence or consent but that that simply works because it's rightfully God's. But of course I can't say this to everyone and hope they understand much less able to accept it because though I understand what little I know and understand, I do not know everything about God or just a mere little something, just like most people who know God. The one who created everything out of nothing must be logically speaking waaay beyond our understanding even that which is our current best.

There's nothing wrong with using the Ferrari analogy to the whole creation..the truth is what you just wrote actually backed the analogy further so if it took intelligent men to design and produce a something out of something else then it must have taken as well some unimaginably intelligent entity to design and CREATE EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. Because if it took intelligent people just to design and produce something out of something else we know for certain that nothing could not have possibly created anything much less everything.


btw I don't mean to argue or force an opinion which is like you said just a personal opinion
And it's more like a philosophical argument or conviction than proving anything.

But I do believe trees sprout out of the ground because its seeds were planted in it. Whether God made the seed where they were I have no way to know unless told and unless told I must assume it was just by nature.

[TLAM Strike]

On the subject of a universe suited for life a counter argument could be that it is us who are suited for life in our universe and not the other way around. It is us who developed to survive in the universe. A vastly different universe may have life that has evolved to survive in it totally different that us and could not survive in our universe and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Castout

...a something or many something or many everything which has always existed even before the creation of this 3 dimensional universe.

Point of interest: We live in a 4 dimensional universe. The 4th dimension being Time. If we lived in a 3 dimensional universe our existence would be static- perhaps we would perceive time like the "Wormhole Aliens" on DS9, seeing the Past, Present and Future all occurring at once. Or nothing would occur in the universe.

Obviously any physicist would tell us that the universe is not going to last forever, at least the one which we are currently seeing with live stars and all. Physicists could present theory of the end of universe existence but nothing more than that. The end may be as puzzling as the beginning but we do know the the universe capability to sustain life at least our kind of being diminishes as it progresses in time hence it seems that ability to sustain life forever was never the characteristic of this universe

Some physicists will also tell you that time and space are curved that that is it possible under very special circumstances to travel forwards or backwards in time. If an observer were to travel under such special circumstances (one possibility of backwards time travel requires two black holes in extreme proximity) he/she/it could live in a never ending universe.

Unless logic fails me the distance would be to create barrier to make them exactly that, out of reach, at least until mankind develop their capabilities further. And stars are becoming more distant as time goes by. So we better hurry up

Unless we discover how to travel with distance as a meaningless part of the equation IE a wormhole.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

Somewhere out in the infinite universe there is the planet of the wild Ferrari herds. A planet where the natural evolution of life includes an internal combustion powered aesthetically pleasing hunk of metal as its natural ultimate lifeform survive to its environment.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by MH

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

Yeah. An estimated 10^24 stars and who knows how many planets in the universe, all governed by a petty tyrant which demands praise from, and exacts punishment on, the inhabitants of one planet in a backwater section of a typical galaxy. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by MH

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

If you live in someone's house you are obliged to live by the host house rules.
If the host didn't give a clue of his house rules then you cannot be expected to follow them and if you were punished by not following them because you didn't know what was expected then the host would not be acting fair.

But I think God has made it clear to everyone of His house rules.
It's even embedded in our conscience and empathy. And we even try to imitate His house rules in our judiciary system, not any of its specifics nor withstanding any of its shortcomings, us being mortal men but what it was meant to give.

Well if you do not like your conscience and what your empathy telling you then go ahead live somewhere else but wait even Hell and the world of the dead belong to God. I guess the only way to be free of God is to start creating your own house including your very own made body, physical and spiritual and some 'breathing space' with your own rules that implies creating something out of nothing if not altogether creating a different everything out of nothing. But I think it would be far too much thing for a man or even a race of man or all the race of man to accomplish. So meanwhile we just need to check our ego as a mere mortal person.


But all men who thought as you made the mistake of assuming too much about God without knowing anything of God personally and make it all worse by attributing man's fallible characteristics to a holy God or by expecting TOO MUCH of God this and that that he would blame God for everything that went wrong even if it was another man's fault since he had been falsely taught somehow that God is somehow responsible of literally everything and he swallowed this WHOLLY even without personal knowledge of God. It takes honesty to say I do not know instead of being emotional about something which one doesn't have knowledge about no matter how little. This applies to both, believers and unbelievers.

If the ground which will not obey any man no matter his stature, obeyed the Lord God or that sickness which all man's wits fail to defeat be healed by mere will of God then there must be a very very good reason and strong foundation why those things would obey an entity that many man mistakenly loath as an evil tyrannical person.

But I've also unfortunately accepted that even though God is universal He may not be for everyone not because God is not for everyone but because not everyone is for God through sadly their false beliefs of God and the worship of their own desires. Let's admit it, mankind are not rational being even in the 21st century. People make excuses when they want justifications of their lives or deeds, ideals or lack of it even when their deeds couldn't be justified whatsoever. Excuses feel good because it fools you into believing that you're good even by being evil. No evil person who walks this earth could possibly allow themselves to think and genuinely believe they are an evil person unless that man is on his way to his repentance.

[antikristuseke]

I am incline to agree with Steve here, we don't really know how the universe came to exist, maybe one day we will, but I doubt it, but I am sure we will form a more accurate view of what happened back then as our knowledge and understanding of the universe increase.
Now then, to claim that a god or gods caused this is nothing more than idle speculation with no basis in evidence, the only intelecually honest position, in my opinion, is to accept that we do not know. There is no need or purpouse to fill that void in our knowledge with a fictitious entity, actually, it could be argued that it can be detrimental to advancing our understanding. In just one example if you atribute a particular phenomenon to the supernatural causing it there is no need to investigate further as you have an answer though that phenomenon more than likely has a perfectly good naturalistic explanation behind it. Lightning was though to be caused by some god or another, now we have discovered that it is not.
As to the intelligent design argument for living beings (not that anyone has really used it here as far as I can tell, just geting this off my chest), it fails rather miserably, becuse if we were all engineeredd by an intelligent being, that was one bloody inept engineer. Take the human eye for instance, something requently used by the proponents of hte design argument as something that could not arrise on its own due to natural selection, there is a blind spot where the optical nerve attaches to the retina and because of how the retian is placed it can become detatched causing blindness, either temporary or permanent. I don't know about you but that is a pretty poor design. Oddly ennough cephalopod eyes do not suffer from those same problems and in some cases have the added advantage of being able to see the polarization of light.

I have probably gone off track a bit with my nonsensical rant. Oh well.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

I have probably gone off track a bit with my nonsensical rant. Oh well.

Not as far as I did

yea I do not know though I believe and suspect God

[antikristuseke]

I don't know either, but I dont think there is a god or gods, or the supernatural, just things we do not understand or know.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by TarJak

That's no worse than the Norse creation myth.

Then the Christian creation myth. First there's just god, he blinks his eye and POOF there's the universe

At least Germanic Paganism does not have some bible "explaining" how exactly everything is created. Germanic Paganism at least acknowledges we do not know everything.

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427

frankly, I applaud that Stephen Hawking is pushing aside the possibility he could go to hell for saying what he's saying. takes guts.

Pah. If you don't believe in god/hell there's no need to be afraid of it. Personally I hate god/christ so there's no way I'm possibly going to end up in "heaven".

Ah well as the Frisian king Radbod once said, I rather spend eternity in hell with my friends than in heaven with my enemies.