Light the blue touch paper and stand well back...

[MH]

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

[yubba]

Originally Posted by MH

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

you' ll have to take that up with him when you get there.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Not sure if its possible to reach the fringe of the universe. Our known universe is based on our ever expanding light horizon- the maximum distance light can travel to us since the start of the universe. If we sent a ship to the edge of that horizon we would find another light horizon of equal size and so on. I think its possible this continues on forever.

Another question to ponder is if you each the edge of matter in the universe (the "farthest star" if you will) does space just stop? Or does hard vacuum continue on forever?

yea made you really wonder what is it like on the fringes of 3 dimensional universe that just didn't exist 1 second before

In my opinion the whole existence or creation as we know it was definitely put in motion and is still in motion which we casually termed as time that is the ability to track changes surrounding and remembering those changes around us,

otherwise this whole grand motion of existence would be unknown, not enjoyable and not witness-able.

We are the spectators of this which was put in motion and which is still in motion, a grand existence in which we partake in this tiny period of time to marvel on it and to become part of it for a little time and to fill it with our consciousness which otherwise would be largely just empty dark void, mindless and soulless and dead. Thus we are in essence the witnesses of this whole creation and both at the same time, the resulting consciousness of this whole creation.

And i just couldn't believe that we are who we are because of some odd accident or a freak coincidence because everything fits beautifully and in a harmonious order, reliable, stable and life sustainable. And because chaos could not create order out of it ever and because nothing only creates nothing and because motion must be started by something and because that something must have implied a beginning and because that beginning is a proof of design judging the results of it and because design implies intelligence I must refuse to accept that this whole marvelous things I'm looking at including my beautiful wife and children as a result of a god damn freak accident.

Just like when you look at a Ferrari, beautiful and functioning and able or with a purpose and enjoyable you must say what a piece of engineering amd you would be nuts if you said it was what it was by itself. Bear this in mind when you're out close with the nature and looking at that mountain or mountain range or the tranquility of that lake or the majesty of the open sea or when just simply staring into the eyes of your loved one. What a piece of engineering!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Castout

In my opinion the whole existence or creation as we know it was definitely put in motion and is still in motion which we casually termed as time that is the ability to track changes surrounding and remembering those changes around us,

otherwise this whole grand motion of existence would be unknown, not enjoyable and not witness-able.

Opinions are nice, and not always to be argued with. Yours is fine, and of course you are free to share it. I personally no longer have an opinion. This is unknown, and I don't see it likely to become known anytime soon.

But...

And i just couldn't believe that we are who we are because of some odd accident or a freak coincidence because everything fits beautifully and in a harmonious order, reliable, stable and life sustainable.

But what we can believe or can't believe is still just opinion. I have no idea whether it could be a freak coincidence or not. Just because there is order is not an explanation of how that order came to be. It's possible we see a creator behind the order because there is one, or it's possible we see that because we want an explanation, even if there isn't one.

And because chaos could not create order out of it ever and because nothing only creates nothing and because motion must be started by something and because that something must have implied a beginning and because that beginning is a proof of design judging the results of it and because design implies intelligence I must refuse to accept that this whole marvelous things I'm looking at including my beautiful wife and children as a result of a god damn freak accident.

How do you know chaos could not create order? How do you know that nothing only creates nothing? None of us were there to see it. With no real evidence, there is no way to know for certain.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know either. I'm just saying that whether we can believe something or not doesn't make it so.

Just like when you look at a Ferrari, beautiful and functioning and able or with a purpose and enjoyable you must say what a piece of engineering amd you would be nuts if you said it was what it was by itself. Bear this in mind when you're out close with the nature and looking at that mountain or mountain range or the tranquility of that lake or the majesty of the open sea or when just simply staring into the eyes of your loved one. What a piece of engineering!

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

[TLAM Strike]

We have found that the ingredients for life are quite common in the universe and may have in fact arrived on this planet from outside sources.

The conditions for life to start may as well be common, astronomers are now discovering terrestrial extrasolar planets with orbits similar to our own.

It may very well be that life is not only abundant but inevitable.

(All due respect to Neil deGrass Tyson, who I just very broadly paraphrased.)

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

How do you know chaos could not create order? How do you know that nothing only creates nothing? None of us were there to see it. With no real evidence, there is no way to know for certain.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know either. I'm just saying that whether we can believe something or not doesn't make it so.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

EXACTLY. A Ferrari is not even created they are produced but not created out of nothing because much less man unable to create anything out of nothing so nothing will certainly not create everything that we know from absolutely nothing.

Though I can swear that I do know God exists I do not know for sure whether God created everything but since I've found to today that nothing is even remotely close to God it would be a safe bet that He did create everything which would explain the legitimacy of God being in authority and the source of all genuine authority as what I've come to understand and know, authority that doesn't intimidate, coerce(God never scare anyone maybe some preachers do but never God), nor one which requires influence or consent but that that simply works because it's rightfully God's. But of course I can't say this to everyone and hope they understand much less able to accept it because though I understand what little I know and understand, I do not know everything about God or just a mere little something, just like most people who know God. The one who created everything out of nothing must be logically speaking waaay beyond our understanding even that which is our current best.

There's nothing wrong with using the Ferrari analogy to the whole creation..the truth is what you just wrote actually backed the analogy further so if it took intelligent men to design and produce a something out of something else then it must have taken as well some unimaginably intelligent entity to design and CREATE EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. Because if it took intelligent people just to design and produce something out of something else we know for certain that nothing could not have possibly created anything much less everything.


btw I don't mean to argue or force an opinion which is like you said just a personal opinion
And it's more like a philosophical argument or conviction than proving anything.

But I do believe trees sprout out of the ground because its seeds were planted in it. Whether God made the seed where they were I have no way to know unless told and unless told I must assume it was just by nature.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by Castout

...He did create everything which would explain the legitimacy of God being in authority and the source of all genuine authority as what I've come to understand and know, authority that doesn't intimidate, coerce(God never scare anyone maybe some preachers do but never God)

Umm... ever read the Old Testament?

And everything has to have a cause? What's god's cause, then? Let me guess - god is exempt... because it just is.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Castout

Though I can swear that I do know God exists I do not know for sure whether God created everything

Then, despite your "EXACTLY", you missed my point entirely.

HOW do you know God exists? There is no evidence one way or the other. Things may just be what they are, and not have had any help at all. What you "know" is only what you believe. As I said, believing it doesn't make it so.

It's very hard to answer single points in a run-on sentence, so I divided the following up as best I could.

but since I've found to today that nothing is even remotely close to God it would be a safe bet that He did create everything which would explain the legitimacy of God being in authority and the source of all genuine authority as what I've come to understand and know,

Why exactly is that a safe bet. It's only true if there really is a God, and so far the only evidence you've shown is the fact that you believe it. That is all you really "know". If it can't be shown with facts and evidence, then it is nothing more than belief, and belief is not proof.

The one who created everything out of nothing must be logically speaking waaay beyond our understanding even that which is our current best.

That is certainly true, if the initial assumption is true. But again, there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, so your argument is all built on faith, not fact.

There's nothing wrong with using the Ferrari analogy to the whole creation..the truth is what you just wrote actually backed the analogy further so if it took intelligent men to design and produce a something out of something else then it must have taken as well some unimaginably intelligent entity to design and CREATE EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. Because if it took intelligent people just to design and produce something out of something else we know for certain that nothing could not have possibly created anything much less everything.

Again you miss the important fact that we don't know if everthing was created out of nothing or not. All we "know" is what we see. Everything else is guesswork. The universe may have been created by God, or it may just "be". We don't know.

Don't take this to mean I deny God's existence. That would require me to believe that there is no God, and I don't. The only thing I know for certain on the subject is that I don't know. And the only thing I believe is that no one else knows either.

And if someone does actually know, I wish they'd show me the proof.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Castout

EXACTLY. A Ferrari is not even created they are produced but not created out of nothing because much less man unable to create anything out of nothing so nothing will certainly not create everything that we know from absolutely nothing.

[...]

There's nothing wrong with using the Ferrari analogy to the whole creation..the truth is what you just wrote actually backed the analogy further so if it took intelligent men to design and produce a something out of something else then it must have taken as well some unimaginably intelligent entity to design and CREATE EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. Because if it took intelligent people just to design and produce something out of something else we know for certain that nothing could not have possibly created anything much less everything.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say "everything" is created out of "nothing". Some things were created out of some other things, and some more things out of the last things etc. etc.


If you want a Ferrari, why wait 4.6 billion years to create it? Why make a Ferrari with many design flaws that breaks down after x years? Why create billions of other Ferrari's floating out of reach of you somewhere in space?

So your Ferrari analogy can just as easily be used to counter the claim that god exists.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

The thing there is, as soon as we can explain and understand it, the supernatural ceases to be supernatural and reverts to being natural

Supernatural and natural are just words . . .and there are many level of understanding . . . and if you ask why to everything that man claims to have understood the final answer would be they don't know that yet.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Then, despite your "EXACTLY", you missed my point entirely.

HOW do you know God exists? There is no evidence one way or the other. Things may just be what they are, and not have had any help at all. What you "know" is only what you believe. As I said, believing it doesn't make it so.

It's very hard to answer single points in a run-on sentence, so I divided the following up as best I could.

Why exactly is that a safe bet. It's only true if there really is a God, and so far the only evidence you've shown is the fact that you believe it. That is all you really "know". If it can't be shown with facts and evidence, then it is nothing more than belief, and belief is not proof.


That is certainly true, if the initial assumption is true. But again, there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, so your argument is all built on faith, not fact.


Again you miss the important fact that we don't know if everthing was created out of nothing or not. All we "know" is what we see. Everything else is guesswork. The universe may have been created by God, or it may just "be". We don't know.

Don't take this to mean I deny God's existence. That would require me to believe that there is no God, and I don't. The only thing I know for certain on the subject is that I don't know. And the only thing I believe is that no one else knows either.

And if someone does actually know, I wish they'd show me the proof.

I never claimed to be able to show anyone proof of God. And I don't mean to argue either. As to the question to how do I know God exists? Well I saw God. I asked to be shown God and there was given what I asked 18 years ago. Of course this is not a public proof but it was enough of a personal proof to ME alone.

That's just one of the PERSONAL proof that I have of God. I never claim to have a proof of God that applies to everyone nor able to prove it.

I don't mean to offend anyone or ague for the sake of arguing and not much a debate that I can present. . . . . .I just want to make a testimony that I know God exists and no it's not a mere belief. And I'm not the only one obviously then now or ever.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Well, first of all I wouldn't say "everything" is created out of "nothing". Some things were created out of some other things, and some more things out of the last things etc. etc.

Sure but like what I wrote essentially everything must have been created out of nothing in the beginning but Sailor Steve argued that we could not even say that because we don't know anything about what was really in the beginning as there could already be something in the beginning, a something or many something or many everything which has always existed even before the creation of this 3 dimensional universe. Then I think we need to investigate how those something or many everything came into being in the first place before because if they had a beginning that beginning might point to the time of creation of everything . . . .

Originally Posted by DarkFish

If you want a Ferrari, why wait 4.6 billion years to create it?

umm I must assume that you didn't really mean Ferrari

Why not?! You certainly not assuming that there's a problem of creating a universe which is taking so much of mankind standard years?

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Why make a Ferrari with many design flaws that breaks down after x years?

Why not if that had been the plan all along?
Or why not even if that had been the best that whatever the creator could create?

Obviously any physicist would tell us that the universe is not going to last forever, at least the one which we are currently seeing with live stars and all. Physicists could present theory of the end of universe existence but nothing more than that. The end may be as puzzling as the beginning but we do know the the universe capability to sustain life at least our kind of being diminishes as it progresses in time hence it seems that ability to sustain life forever was never the characteristic of this universe

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Why create billions of other Ferrari's floating out of reach of you somewhere in space?

Unless logic fails me the distance would be to create barrier to make them exactly that, out of reach, at least until mankind develop their capabilities further. And stars are becoming more distant as time goes by. So we better hurry up

And I don't know if there were Ferraris in space either is there much use and anything enjoyable for us out there that's not here already?

Originally Posted by DarkFish

So your Ferrari analogy can just as easily be used to counter the claim that god exists.

Actually I was using that Ferrari to make comparison with the life that we are so blessed to enjoy.

A heart that's capable of feeling.....tongue which make the acts of nourishing ourselves a pleasure which is important to give us incentive to preserve ourselves

Or the sun which conveniently placed to give us the optimum heat that would not endanger life.

Or the beautiful nature that compels millions of tourist looking for a refreshing get away to enjoy a scenic holiday be it the sea, the mountain, the lake or the country side.

Life could be much more depressing if all nature had been an ugly piece of ****.

But they do not and they are even beautiful and joyful to be enjoyed.
Sure there might be the occasional hurricane, earthquake but life on this planet is very much enjoyable is it not. What I'm trying to say that the planet is convenient for thriving living population.

when you look at the mirror this morning do you like what you are seeing? When you breathe do you not like the air that you breathe in?

Do you not enjoy your life?


And did you work on those things?

No? then your life as much as mine is a gift! And if you said those things happened by themselves the way we enjoy living and just being then . . .WHAT A COINCIDENCE!

[TLAM Strike]

On the subject of a universe suited for life a counter argument could be that it is us who are suited for life in our universe and not the other way around. It is us who developed to survive in the universe. A vastly different universe may have life that has evolved to survive in it totally different that us and could not survive in our universe and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Castout

...a something or many something or many everything which has always existed even before the creation of this 3 dimensional universe.

Point of interest: We live in a 4 dimensional universe. The 4th dimension being Time. If we lived in a 3 dimensional universe our existence would be static- perhaps we would perceive time like the "Wormhole Aliens" on DS9, seeing the Past, Present and Future all occurring at once. Or nothing would occur in the universe.

Obviously any physicist would tell us that the universe is not going to last forever, at least the one which we are currently seeing with live stars and all. Physicists could present theory of the end of universe existence but nothing more than that. The end may be as puzzling as the beginning but we do know the the universe capability to sustain life at least our kind of being diminishes as it progresses in time hence it seems that ability to sustain life forever was never the characteristic of this universe

Some physicists will also tell you that time and space are curved that that is it possible under very special circumstances to travel forwards or backwards in time. If an observer were to travel under such special circumstances (one possibility of backwards time travel requires two black holes in extreme proximity) he/she/it could live in a never ending universe.

Unless logic fails me the distance would be to create barrier to make them exactly that, out of reach, at least until mankind develop their capabilities further. And stars are becoming more distant as time goes by. So we better hurry up

Unless we discover how to travel with distance as a meaningless part of the equation IE a wormhole.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

Somewhere out in the infinite universe there is the planet of the wild Ferrari herds. A planet where the natural evolution of life includes an internal combustion powered aesthetically pleasing hunk of metal as its natural ultimate lifeform survive to its environment.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

On the subject of a universe suited for life a counter argument could be that it is us who are suited for life in our universe and not the other way around. It is us who developed to survive in the universe. A vastly different universe may have life that has evolved to survive in it totally different that us and could not survive in our universe and vice versa.

Aye but it may be possible or even very that a universe could have been created that would not well suited for any life form to develop. Microscopically speaking the moon doesn't have a life form . . . .and physicists are saying the the universe will lose its capability to sustain life eventually
Not saying that the point was not a good one.

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Point of interest: We live in a 4 dimensional universe. The 4th dimension being Time. If we lived in a 3 dimensional universe our existence would be static- perhaps we would perceive time like the "Wormhole Aliens" on DS9, seeing the Past, Present and Future all occurring at once. Or nothing would occur in the universe.

Is time a derived dimension that resulted from a universe created in motion and which is still in motion or would time be an independent dimension one which existed regardless of motion in space or universe.

Because if time is dependent on the motion in created space then it will not be a dimension itself. It's just there because the universe is in motion.

But your next quote may answer this

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Some physicists will also tell you that time and space are curved that that is it possible under very special circumstances to travel forwards or backwards in time. If an observer were to travel under such special circumstances (one possibility of backwards time travel requires two black holes in extreme proximity) he/she/it could live in a never ending universe.

now I can't even imagine how time travel would be accomplished if it were possible I guess time would indeed be another whole dimension and not simply the result of motion in space. Time travel . . . . . .sounds insane doesn't it?

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Unless we discover how to travel with distance as a meaningless part of the equation IE a wormhole.

Aye agree space exploration needs a kind of propulsion or traveling technology that is now still beyond our know how.

[Sledgehammer427]

I still want to know how some Christians can argue that dinosaurs didn't exist, standing in front of a carbon-dated authentic T-Rex skeleton at the natural history museum. It's absolutely baffling.

another thing concerning the big bang theory.
It's not that everything came from nothing. it's that everything came from a singularity. a singular particle exploded [skip ahead skip ahead] and now we have the known universe.
I can't take the bible seriously because it was written 2000 years ago. Do you think the writers knew we would have facebook, twitter, and all this cellphone and personal computer nonsense?
No.
It's a great way to dictate a moral code and standards to live by......
If you live in a society where almost all of your community is illiterate and your only literate person is a storyteller. Give him a biiiig book filled with all this holy knowledge (nowadays, a lot of it is called common sense) and he will go forth and improve the standards of living through his wiseness, thanks to this collection of writings. It's a fascinating story. it's compiled like some kind of epoch. Since just standing around telling everyone this is wrong and you should be nice to people is just silly. we need characters, a storyline, morals and reasons. If you do something outside the boundaries of this moral code, you will spend your afterlife (if such a thing really exists) suffering with no end in sight.
after a few thousand years of documented history, we have this whole Moral code, ways to live, and reasons to be good, down.

Man is adventurous and curious by nature. If god wanted us to believe in him, he would make it far more obvious that he exists, or make the human being stay reclusive and dependent on his knowledge...which, if it really was the best knowledge, guess what adam and eve would have sitting on their nightstand?
a bible.
If simply questioning his existence condemns you to hell...or looking at another woman because you find her attractive for that matter, that's a little drastic, don't you think? In this day and age, almost everything we do but breathing is a sin. There is no proof that this God figure exists. We have no firsthand accounts of a Hell, we have no way to tell if someone is an angel or not.
We will find out how all of this wonderful natural machinery (e.g. ferraris and mountains and stuff) came to be. but it's not our time or our place yet. we will keep searching, and we will discover the true meaning behind why we are here and how we came to be.
The church exists so the misguided, the immoral, and the hopeless can find a true direction on their compass.
Nothing like saying a supernatural being will send you to an eternal suffering ground if you don't straighten your act up right?
I'm sure a devout [insert religion name here] will come along and shoot all of my theories and ideology down. After all, they have a 2000 year old book to back them up.
I'm just a cynical teenager.

Somewhere out in the infinite universe there is the planet of the wild Ferrari herds. A planet where the natural evolution of life includes an internal combustion powered aesthetically pleasing hunk of metal as its natural ultimate lifeform survive to its environment.

and now I will devote my life to finding such a planet...but perhaps it has already evolved?
maybe the ferraris are working cubicle jobs and programming WEP keys for their routers at home, driving to work on a brand new, shiny human?

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by MH

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

Yeah. An estimated 10^24 stars and who knows how many planets in the universe, all governed by a petty tyrant which demands praise from, and exacts punishment on, the inhabitants of one planet in a backwater section of a typical galaxy. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by MH

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

If you live in someone's house you are obliged to live by the host house rules.
If the host didn't give a clue of his house rules then you cannot be expected to follow them and if you were punished by not following them because you didn't know what was expected then the host would not be acting fair.

But I think God has made it clear to everyone of His house rules.
It's even embedded in our conscience and empathy. And we even try to imitate His house rules in our judiciary system, not any of its specifics nor withstanding any of its shortcomings, us being mortal men but what it was meant to give.

Well if you do not like your conscience and what your empathy telling you then go ahead live somewhere else but wait even Hell and the world of the dead belong to God. I guess the only way to be free of God is to start creating your own house including your very own made body, physical and spiritual and some 'breathing space' with your own rules that implies creating something out of nothing if not altogether creating a different everything out of nothing. But I think it would be far too much thing for a man or even a race of man or all the race of man to accomplish. So meanwhile we just need to check our ego as a mere mortal person.


But all men who thought as you made the mistake of assuming too much about God without knowing anything of God personally and make it all worse by attributing man's fallible characteristics to a holy God or by expecting TOO MUCH of God this and that that he would blame God for everything that went wrong even if it was another man's fault since he had been falsely taught somehow that God is somehow responsible of literally everything and he swallowed this WHOLLY even without personal knowledge of God. It takes honesty to say I do not know instead of being emotional about something which one doesn't have knowledge about no matter how little. This applies to both, believers and unbelievers.

If the ground which will not obey any man no matter his stature, obeyed the Lord God or that sickness which all man's wits fail to defeat be healed by mere will of God then there must be a very very good reason and strong foundation why those things would obey an entity that many man mistakenly loath as an evil tyrannical person.

But I've also unfortunately accepted that even though God is universal He may not be for everyone not because God is not for everyone but because not everyone is for God through sadly their false beliefs of God and the worship of their own desires. Let's admit it, mankind are not rational being even in the 21st century. People make excuses when they want justifications of their lives or deeds, ideals or lack of it even when their deeds couldn't be justified whatsoever. Excuses feel good because it fools you into believing that you're good even by being evil. No evil person who walks this earth could possibly allow themselves to think and genuinely believe they are an evil person unless that man is on his way to his repentance.