Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

And there is absolutely zero anti-Muslim / anti-Arab feelings in Israel, IDF, USA, etc.? And not just songs but also a military that is actively used against mainly civilian and other similar targets in a very careless manner.

There probably is more than a little sentiment on the other side. But does that matter? I was saying that those particular activists wished for destruction of Israel. That remains true.

That's actually the root of many of our disagreements here. I'm speaking about this particular incident, and about the behavior of the activists and military personnel on that particular day, in that particular case. You're trying to project its details on the wider picture, which doesn't always work.

In any case, civilians are bound to be harmed when insurgents operate among them against organized military. In general, both US and Israeli military forces go to great lengths to avoid civilian targets, but not at expense of endangering their own.

Indeed, I can't think of any military forces in the last few thousands years that go to the same lengths to avoid civilian casualties as NATO and the IDF. It's never good enough, and hopefully things are always improving, but it's not fair to pretend that civilians are deliberately targeted or anything like that.

Well good. Although the body count isn't 50 - 50, Israel is responsible for much more bloodshed.

Well yes, the Palestinians can't hit their targets, and the IDF can't avoid collateral damage when they hit theirs. It simply could not be otherwise, but it's also not an option to allow the other side to operate rocket artillery against civilian targets with impunity.

Considering the type of operations involved and guerilla tactics from the Palestinians, the IDF takes a good amount of effort to limit collateral damage, but at the same time they are prone to high profile daytime drone missile strikes that really don't help in the PR department.

That said, war is war, and getting a team in place isn't always feasible and may lead to unnecessary IDF casualties.

Are you saying the Israelis should care about what happens in the refugee camps? Go tell them that. Palestinians fighting other Palestinians? This could only be in Israel's favour.

If they don't care they certainly should. Instability and hardship in Palestinian communities only feeds extremism and makes the peace process more difficult, if not impossible. Improving the quality and stability of life for the average Palestinian should be Israel's #1 priority.

I think a case could be made that the Palestinians acts are reactive stemming from being driven by force from the areas where they lived. But it is a kind of vendetta with acts being avenged on both sides. Now it seems that the Palestinians have become a little smarter media-wise, remains to be seen what the future brings.

Palestinians have always been media-smart, but their fundamental problem is that they refuse to stop shelling and other forms of terror. Israel won't budge on that, and I understand them. The world community will also never unite behind them as long as they operate paramilitary units and launch rockets at civilians. On the other hand I understand why Palestinians feel that terrorism is their only option - they live disenfranchised in poverty, and Israel won't stop with settlements, occupation, etc. And every time there is a danger of compromise and peace we get news of new settlements built or a rocket attack. Some people over there just don't want peace.

The legality side will be decided later in courts. Like you said earlier somebody is about to get fired, maybe at least Ehud Barak.

I honestly dont see a court case coming out of this. Nobody is making any international noise in that direction. If anyone is getting fired it's because of internal IDF reviews.

[Jimbuna]

^^

+10

[CaptainHaplo]

Well good. Although the body count isn't 50 - 50, Israel is responsible for much more bloodshed.

I am going to assume (as dangerous as that is) that the above was quoted by OTH, since he was earlier sourced on another quote.

Regardless of its source - it is both right - and wrong. There is no 50-50 body count. Yes, Israel has been the one to directly be the reason why many more Palestinians have been killed. However, for the Palestinian death that Israel is "directly" accountable for, you have to realize that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim and all the other groups (of which there are MANY) are undoubtedly just as accountable - though indirectly - for those same deaths. They are the ones that choose to hide behind their fellow Palestinians, putting the innocent into danger.

While I will say there is always the exception to the rule - I would also say that the vast majority of Palestinian INNOCENTS that have lost their life should not be heaped on the head of one group or entity - but on them ALL. And when you look at it from that perspective - the Palestinian "freedom fighters" have killed as many of their own as Israel has.

But the whole point that people miss is exactly that - it takes two to "tango" - and neither side is "innocent". However, if Hamas really gave two $hits for their own people, they would spend their time working for the betterment of their people, instead of continuing to put them into the firing line. Groups like Hamas are nothing more than glorified gangs, as was proven during the Gaza fighting between Hamas and the PA - they are more intersted in control and power than they are about working for the betterment of their people. This was further proven when they REFUSED the aid from the six ship flotilla earlier this week. Hamas NEEDS Israel - just like the PLO did. Because without it - people start blaming the people in charge for their plight - instead of their "enemy". Hamas couldn't govern their way out of a wet paper bag without violence.

Until the Palestinian people decide they want a life and yes - a nation - run in way that deserves a seat at the big people table, instead of a loose collection of disjointed regions controlled by various thugs, how can you blame Israel (and the people there today) for not feeling a little coldhearted when these same thugs target them without end?

Hamas and its peers want and need conflict - because its the only thing they know. Its why they go so far as to recruit and brainwash children to carry out suicide attacks.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Stealth Hunter, you are wasting your time.
It doesn't matter about the legality of the blockade, it doesn't matter about the legality of the boarding, it doesn't even matter about the nature of the goods that are being blocked.
It may have mattered early in the discussion when people were claiming that Israel was doing everything nice and legal which made it all OK and perfectly justified, but since that position fell apart they no longer care about legality or justification as the only thing that matters is Israel good-Palestine bad.

I will bet that Stealth Hunter and Tribesman are the same person, again.

[August]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I am going to assume (as dangerous as that is) that the above was quoted by OTH, since he was earlier sourced on another quote.

Regardless of its source - it is both right - and wrong. There is no 50-50 body count. Yes, Israel has been the one to directly be the reason why many more Palestinians have been killed. However, for the Palestinian death that Israel is "directly" accountable for, you have to realize that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim and all the other groups (of which there are MANY) are undoubtedly just as accountable - though indirectly - for those same deaths. They are the ones that choose to hide behind their fellow Palestinians, putting the innocent into danger.

While I will say there is always the exception to the rule - I would also say that the vast majority of Palestinian INNOCENTS that have lost their life should not be heaped on the head of one group or entity - but on them ALL. And when you look at it from that perspective - the Palestinian "freedom fighters" have killed as many of their own as Israel has.

But the whole point that people miss is exactly that - it takes two to "tango" - and neither side is "innocent". However, if Hamas really gave two $hits for their own people, they would spend their time working for the betterment of their people, instead of continuing to put them into the firing line. Groups like Hamas are nothing more than glorified gangs, as was proven during the Gaza fighting between Hamas and the PA - they are more intersted in control and power than they are about working for the betterment of their people. This was further proven when they REFUSED the aid from the six ship flotilla earlier this week. Hamas NEEDS Israel - just like the PLO did. Because without it - people start blaming the people in charge for their plight - instead of their "enemy". Hamas couldn't govern their way out of a wet paper bag without violence.

Until the Palestinian people decide they want a life and yes - a nation - run in way that deserves a seat at the big people table, instead of a loose collection of disjointed regions controlled by various thugs, how can you blame Israel (and the people there today) for not feeling a little coldhearted when these same thugs target them without end?

Hamas and its peers want and need conflict - because its the only thing they know. Its why they go so far as to recruit and brainwash children to carry out suicide attacks.

Well said Hap.

Did you know that Israel has actually mixed Arab Jewish population.

What has that got to do with the price of cheese?

There is also have Druz population whose members serve in Israeli Air Force and SF

So what?

The rest of your post

Not a single thing there relates to what you claimed, and that is because your claims were simply false.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I am going to assume (as dangerous as that is) that the above was quoted by OTH, since he was earlier sourced on another quote.

Regardless of its source - it is both right - and wrong. There is no 50-50 body count. Yes, Israel has been the one to directly be the reason why many more Palestinians have been killed. However, for the Palestinian death that Israel is "directly" accountable for, you have to realize that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim and all the other groups (of which there are MANY) are undoubtedly just as accountable - though indirectly - for those same deaths. They are the ones that choose to hide behind their fellow Palestinians, putting the innocent into danger.

While I will say there is always the exception to the rule - I would also say that the vast majority of Palestinian INNOCENTS that have lost their life should not be heaped on the head of one group or entity - but on them ALL. And when you look at it from that perspective - the Palestinian "freedom fighters" have killed as many of their own as Israel has.

But the whole point that people miss is exactly that - it takes two to "tango" - and neither side is "innocent". However, if Hamas really gave two $hits for their own people, they would spend their time working for the betterment of their people, instead of continuing to put them into the firing line. Groups like Hamas are nothing more than glorified gangs, as was proven during the Gaza fighting between Hamas and the PA - they are more intersted in control and power than they are about working for the betterment of their people. This was further proven when they REFUSED the aid from the six ship flotilla earlier this week. Hamas NEEDS Israel - just like the PLO did. Because without it - people start blaming the people in charge for their plight - instead of their "enemy". Hamas couldn't govern their way out of a wet paper bag without violence.

Until the Palestinian people decide they want a life and yes - a nation - run in way that deserves a seat at the big people table, instead of a loose collection of disjointed regions controlled by various thugs, how can you blame Israel (and the people there today) for not feeling a little coldhearted when these same thugs target them without end?

Hamas and its peers want and need conflict - because its the only thing they know. Its why they go so far as to recruit and brainwash children to carry out suicide attacks.

Yes to all that. Hamas is abusing it's own people as human shields, and it arranges situation where they easily get killed (we see that in armed clashes with Israel frequently, and we saw the same rabid dog behavior with Hezbollah in Lebanon absuing and terrorising the civil population there as human shields). Living Palestinians do not bring Hamas into the news. Only dead Palestinians do. It is even known that Hamas terrorises its own people with weapon's force to stay in power itself.

I also must say this: if since Israel got formed up, the Palestinians really suffer so much and are so poor that they do not have enough to eat, I wonder why they must do business like rabbits nevertheless and multiply their population by several factors since the early 50s...? Numbers on population sizes of the Palestinians vary massively, every sources lists different number, and the differences continue no matter what historic age you compare. But almost all sources show such multiplication taking place since Israel'S founding. Usually the factor is listed to be in the range of 3-5. And then they complain that they live in a crowded place and cannot supply their children?

Palestinians instrumentalise their own misery. And some do not live bad from that, for various different reasons.

the Palestinians really suffer so much and are so poor that they do not have enough to eat, I wonder why they must do business like rabbits nevertheless and multiply their population by several factors since the early 50s...?

Maybe they have little else to do apart from have sex.
Though you can take any socio-demographic study and find that in most countries the poor do breed more. Maybe its because sex is fun and usually free at source which in the instant makes for very cheap entertainment.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Regardless of its source - it is both right - and wrong. There is no 50-50 body count. Yes, Israel has been the one to directly be the reason why many more Palestinians have been killed. However, for the Palestinian death that Israel is "directly" accountable for, you have to realize that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim and all the other groups (of which there are MANY) are undoubtedly just as accountable - though indirectly - for those same deaths. They are the ones that choose to hide behind their fellow Palestinians, putting the innocent into danger.

While I will say there is always the exception to the rule - I would also say that the vast majority of Palestinian INNOCENTS that have lost their life should not be heaped on the head of one group or entity - but on them ALL. And when you look at it from that perspective - the Palestinian "freedom fighters" have killed as many of their own as Israel has.

But the whole point that people miss is exactly that - it takes two to "tango" - and neither side is "innocent". However, if Hamas really gave two $hits for their own people, they would spend their time working for the betterment of their people, instead of continuing to put them into the firing line. Groups like Hamas are nothing more than glorified gangs, as was proven during the Gaza fighting between Hamas and the PA - they are more intersted in control and power than they are about working for the betterment of their people. This was further proven when they REFUSED the aid from the six ship flotilla earlier this week. Hamas NEEDS Israel - just like the PLO did. Because without it - people start blaming the people in charge for their plight - instead of their "enemy". Hamas couldn't govern their way out of a wet paper bag without violence.

Until the Palestinian people decide they want a life and yes - a nation - run in way that deserves a seat at the big people table, instead of a loose collection of disjointed regions controlled by various thugs, how can you blame Israel (and the people there today) for not feeling a little coldhearted when these same thugs target them without end?

Hamas and its peers want and need conflict - because its the only thing they know. Its why they go so far as to recruit and brainwash children to carry out suicide attacks.

Originally Posted by August

Well said Hap.

Agreed

And every time there is a danger of compromise and peace we get news of new settlements built or a rocket attack.

The next time when I want to build a large family and a larger house, I first ask your permission to do so, because you're such an expert on terrorism and peace. Same old hobby.

[tomfon]

I've just read that Erdogan wishes to visit Gaza. He also demands from the Turkish Navy to escort the next mission which is scheduled for August. The US seem to have told Erdogan to "hold back" for the time being and reconsider.

Turkey wants to become the representative nation of all Muslims in the area of Eastern Med - Black Sea - Middle East. This way Turkey will be established as THE power in the specific region. I don't think that Erdogan wants to cut relations with Israel. The game has changed. Turkey doesn't want enemies. The only thing they want is to control the nations of their region including the Balkans. This is a very clever tactic and personally i would expect nothing less from Erdogan and his minister of foreign affairs Mr. Davoutoglou. Actually, Davoutoglou has recently published a book explaining Turkey's strategy for the years to come. It is available and you can read all these in there.

If Europe fails to understand correctly the Turkish intentions then, in the future, Turkey will be able to influence the Europeans directly without actually being a member. Don't forget that there are a lot of Muslims in Germany, France and Great Britain. That is my estimation. 'Nuff said.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by tomfon

I've just read that Erdogan wishes to visit Gaza. He also demands from the Turkish Navy to escort the next mission which is scheduled for August. The US seem told Erdogan to "hold back" for the time being and reconsider.

Turkey wants to become the representative nation of all Muslims in the area of Eastern Med - Black Sea - Middle East. This way Turkey will be established as THE power in the specific region. I don't think that Erdogan wants to cut relations with Israel. The game has changed. Turkey doesn't want enemies. The only thing they want is to control the nations of their region including the Balkans. This is a very clever tactic and personally i would expect nothing less from Erdogan and his minister of foreign affairs Mr. Davoutoglou. Actually, Davoutoglou has recently published a book explaining Turkey's strategy for the years to come. It is available and you can read all this in there.

If Europe fails to understand correctly the Turkish intentions then, in the future, Turkey will be able to influence the Europeans directly without actually being a member. Don't forget that there are a lot of Muslims in Germany, France and Great Britain. That is my estimation. 'Nuff said.

Yes, the AKP wants to establish turkey as the master patron of Muslims in the region, and they want to bring Europe under their influence by demographic pressure being set up in foreign nations native populations (=strong Turkish sub-cultures that become powerful enough to influence national politics in favour of Turkish interests, and islam). I'm preaching this since years, but not many listen, because it is not what they want to hear. One can even refer to quotes and statements and explanations by responsible Muslim leaders and Turkish politicians themselves - clever know-it-alls in the West still insist they know it better than the Turks themselves and that they know for sure that the Turks do not mean things the way they tell them.

That way, the West constantly deformates Islam in general. Islam itselöf never is being put in question, it is always other factors giving Islam a bad name. It's the Imams, its the lacking integration, it is this, it is that. That imamas preach Islam, and that lacking integration comes from according demands of islam (or public de,mand by turkish leaders: I again remind of Erdoghans outragous speech during his visit in cologne), does not come to too many people's minds. It cannot be what should not be, and how could leftist tolerance and peace utopias come true if they would recognise an inherent intolerant, martial nature in Islamic ideology itself? Thus, Islam gets glossed over. That islam is world record holder in claiming eternal own victimhood (while indeed all cultures it comes into contact to have taken harm from it, if they did not get wiped out completely), gets completely ignored here in europe. It is a monster we have let in. Let in without being forced to do so. It has been our own damn idioticy and well-meaning stupidity and narcissistic impotence. We thought we would be able to tame islam due to the grandesse of our glorious western culture. Ha - Pustekuchen is'!


In Germany, a criminalsitic study has been published these days, by an institute related to the German police. Amongst many others they had examined and asked 45,000 schoolboys and -girls from Muslim migration families. They found some highly significant statistic finding, that led the usually so cautious officials to make some very strong statements: that Muslim juveniles show a massively bigger trend to become violent and criminal, than puoils from christian or Jewish or other families, and that their methods (statistics) allowed them to link that directly to the typical macho-culture in Islam that forms Islamic male role models. They even went so far to say what I am preaching since years here: they said that the more christian teenagers beolieved in their relgion, the more peaceful and pacifistic they show to be, but that children from Muslim families show to be the more violent and prone to become criminal, the more devout believers of Muslim faith they are. I'm saying this since years.

So much for the study. The spokesman explaining it on the press conference, of course immedately relativised it again. He said that this misunderstanding of Islam is because the Imams in germany are teaching it the way they do - the problems is the imams, Islam itself has nothing to do with it. He also said that as a consequence from Islam rejecting integration, we (local residents calling this our country of Germany our legitimite home) must do more to integrate Islam. Have I got this right - we are getting called to tolerate and integrate what is not tolerating us and does not want to adapt to us and does not want to integrate? Those meeting us with signficantly raised level of physical violence and hate and macho-habitus - we should tolerate even more and welcome even more and distort outselves in order to let them have their primitive brutal ways?

In my closest social envrionement, there are three people wporking as teachers, since long. They all confirm that Muslim migrants, and here the boys, casue troubles over troubles and that whenever there is ohsycial violelnce and backyard crime taking place on the schoolyard, chances are that Muslim migrant are involved. I heared the same from the warehouse detectives in the warehouse where i worked until two years ago - all these deteives coming from an agency that employed migrants from ME coutries exlcusively (yes, exclusvely ) Crime statistiscs until some time ago gave clear evidence that in many categories of crime, offsporings fromMuslims migrtion familieswere masively overrepresented, by several factors when comparing to other groups.

Politiicans found a wonderful solution to this. They issued a prohibition of statistics so that Muslim migrant grouops and non-muslim groups are generalised any are no loner displayed separately. you cannot tell a difference between the grouos when looking into the yearly databook anymore. the new study I referred to above, so far has not been met with any attention by media, public, or politicians.

but we are being told that we have to adapt to these foreigner'S demands, and that we must integrate them when they do not integrate at all. It is my understanding that if you go to a foreign place to live there, you must ask whether or not they want you, and if so, that it is up to you to adapt to that place and to solve the integration problem. It is not up to the locals, it is up to you as the foreign newcomer.

Obviously, this kind of thinking is not wanted anymore.

[Happy Times]

So said the study. The spokesman explaining it on the press conference, of course immedately relatived it again. He said that this misunderstanding of Islam is becaseu the Imams are teaching it the way they do - Islam itself has nothing to do with it. He also said that as a consequence from Islam rejecting integration, we (local residents calling this our country of Germany our legitimite home) must do more to integrate Islam. Have I got this right - we are getting called to tolerate and integrate what is not tolerating us and does not want to adapt to us and does not want to integrate? Those meeting us with signficantly raised level of physical violence and hate and macho-habitus - we should tolerate even more and welcome even more and distort outselves in order to let them have their primitive brutal ways?

The same in Finland, its always our fault if someone doesnt integrate.
We are told by the politicians and media that we have failed, not them.

[Skybird]

It's a sick, rotten place we live in. The smell in the air is killing you, the noise in the air is deafening you, the sight of things to see is disgusting you. but what is really crushing is - the complete absence of reason and reasonable thought, like a strong vacuum, sucks the soul out of your body, leaving you behind with nothing else but hopelessness and anger.

It's a sick, rotten place we live in. The smell in the air is killing you, the noise in the air is deafening you, the sight of things to see is disgusting you. but what is really crushing is - the complete absence of reason and reasonable thought, like a strong vacuum, sucks the soul out of your body, leaving you behind with nothing else but hopelessness and anger.

Someone needs a hug, or a therapist.