Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

Originally Posted by eskachig

First of all, being a democracy alone shouldn't guarantee support, second - Israel isn't exactly a model democracy, and the Apartheid parallels aren't completely off-base. The occupation is a problem, and people are pissed off for real reasons. Neither side seems to be interested in searching for a lasting solution. I'm for supporting Israel for geo-political reasons - because of its situation it is far and away the most reliable ally in the region. But I don't think anyone should hold any illusions that Israelis are angels or anything - though they are probably the least nasty regime in the region.

It's not a question of whether Israel is an apartheid state, which it is btw, but that people have been murdered and so far nobody has been prosecuted for it. Pretty simple, eh?

Agreed - engaging military in action makes you fair game as far as I'm concerned. Civilians have certain protections, but extending them to people actively participating in combat is just dumb.

Just remember that when the North Korean commandos storm the US.

Strange viewpoint. Yeah, riot cops will not usually fire on protestors who only have hand weapons. Provided they have their footing, and are lined up in formation with shields and gear. They are in a dominant position and are in no extreme danger in that situation. If they are isolated and overwhelmed, then individual policemen are suddenly in extreme danger, and you bet your ass that service weapons would come out. There is no rule that says that policemen have to allow themselves to be killed, and as soon as there is a real danger to their lives, they are not just mandated, but required to respond with deadly force.

Did the people who fast roped into the boat identify themselves as policemen? ARE they policemen? Let me answer that, no and no.

How many cops do you personally know? Have you talked about the situation with them, and asked what their department guidelines say about this situation? The cops I talked to said that the soldiers waited too long to shoot and are lucky none of them died.

The commandos aren't cops.

What lies? What do white flags have to do with anything? If anything, white flags are usually a signal for "we're ready to talk peacefully". In warfare, using white flags to create an ambush usually means summary execution. For reasons previously stated, I find the "firing from helicopters" story highly suspect.

Yes I understand, you only want to murder all non-Jewish Israelis and take no blame for any of it. Well congratulations you managed to murder 10 + of them, must be your lucky day.

I see them protesting Turkish government statements, not celebrating deaths of the activists.

Have you read the Internet lately? Plenty of anti-Palestine vitriol there. Not that you'd notice that since you've already chosen your side.

Yeah, that's a hell of a miscalculation right there, and you'd earn that bullet. What's your point exactly?

My point is if you fight some invaders but not all then how are you supposed to tell the difference between the ones you are supposed to fight and the ones you are not supposed to fight?

In general, as a civilian interacting with military personnel, one should probably assume that a whole lot of pain can and will be brought on you if you misbehave. Also, soldiers usually have backup.

Remember that when police/military of country x mistreat you in some part of the world.

You don't have freedom to ignore authorities, so there is no freedom to take away. You have all kinds of rights and options, but when a cop tells you to do something cooperation is probably in your best interest. And if you come at a cop with a club you will probably eat a bullet for your trouble.

What cop?

You do have the right to defend yourself against police if they are breaking the law, but not unless you are in danger of physical harm - if a cop is illegally searching your car you can sue him for it, but you don't get to throw a punch.

What cop?

Pipes and knives are lethal force, I can't believe you keep bringing it up. Being boarded could be an act of war (though blockade runners are explicitly allowed to be captured, or in case of resistance, sunk), but armed resistance means that one loses protection of civilian status. As for international waters - every blockade is international waters, and maritime laws explicitly allow for it.

So if I break into your home and you defend yourself with non-lethal force it's ok for me to use lethal force against you? Ok I get it now.

What does it matter? 69 miles, 200 miles, it's all the same really.

Yea it's pretty clear that you're willing to bend things to allow Israel murder people.

There are specific conditions that make a blockade illegal, and that's not part of it.

Making murdering civilians ok?

International laws are fairly vague on what happens in neutral waters, as this debate should show. But Israeli military forces have their own laws which they are obliged to follow, just as US military has the UCMJ. Among other things, they spell out requirements that soldiers have to follow in treatment of civilians, and they ostensibly reflect any international agreements that a nation may be part of.

Good thing they have their own set of laws, it's very handy when murdering civilians in international waters.

Well, not really. You can be detained in international waters for a lot of reasons, some of which have been rehashed in this very thread. UN doesn't have a law enforcement arm - it's a forum for sovereign nations, not a super-government.

What exactly are these reasons? Good to know them, I wouldn't want to be murdered by vague Israeli military forces when going fishing in Finnish coastal waters.

It really doesn't matter what you know, or whether you meant to kill someone or merely wound. Attacking someone with a knife is assault with a deadly weapon (btw, merely threatening someone with a knife is assault), and in general not just cops, but civilians, would usually have a legal right to apply lethal force in self defense.

It really doesn't matter what you know, or whether you meant to kill someone or merely wound. Invading someone's home and shooting them with live ammunition is assault with a deadly weapon (btw, merely threatening someone with a gun is assault), and in general not just cops, but civilians, would usually have a legal right to apply lethal force in self defense.

Indeed. This is silly to even talk about. When someone is beating you with a baseball bat, you should assume they are trying to kill you and act accordingly, it's just common sense.

Indeed. This is silly to even talk about. When someone is invading your home and shooting at you with live ammunition, you should assume they are trying to kill you and act accordingly, it's just common sense.

Huh? What would asking Turkey to inspect ships accomplish? And besides, whether ships were inspected or not, Isreal would still be enforcing the blockade. Because otherwise it's not a blockade!

Duuuh! To find out what is being transported!

What is your point? Clubs are deadly weapons you know. In the course of human history, millions have been clubbed to death. A human skull is sort of a fragile thing.

So when your home is invaded you will not use blunt instruments to defend it, I get it now.