Why are WWII subsims popular and modern subsims not?

Kaye T. Bai · 03-05-10, 09:48 PM

I'll have to agree with the bloke who mentioned the lack of modern sub simulators on the market today.

The ones that have been out are very outdated; the ship models from Dangerous Waters are the same as those from Fleet Command, for crying out loud. The graphics for Dangerous Waters were outdated even for its time. It's hard to have a successful product without appealing to a wide audience. While Dangerous Waters was a great game, it was way too complicated for the average gamer.

Imagine, Silent Hunter V in modern form. Without the online DRM and crappy voice acting. Realistic graphics, the ability to interact with your crew on a personal level (apart from fraternization, of course), and an easy to use interface and game engine.

We can always imagine.

Flopper · 03-05-10, 09:58 PM

I thought it was because if there was some real action between modern subs, you would return to port and discover a nuclear wasteland.

Kaye T. Bai · 03-05-10, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flopper

I thought it was because if there was some real action between modern subs, you would return to port and discover a nuclear wasteland.

Wouldn't that make the genre popular?

"Post-Apocalyptic Submarine Warfare!"

Takeda Shingen · 03-05-10, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaye T. Bai

Wouldn't that make the genre popular?

"Post-Apocalyptic Submarine Warfare!"

On the Beach anyone?

Kaye T. Bai · 03-05-10, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

On the Beach anyone?

Hello, Kings Bay Wasteland! This is your host-

Okay, getting a little carried away there.

Hawk66 · 03-06-10, 04:53 AM

I think the mentioned issues here give a good overview. Maybe it's a mixture between the romantic section of WWII (and there are more WWII naval movies than cold war ones) and the lack of emotion in DW.

Perhaps only a community sim could replace DW since it seems that commerical vendors have no interest.

IMO a good approach would be to have a modular appraoch: A naval simulation engine, a 3D/physics engine and so on and then various subprojects might provide plattforms etc.

But probably there are not enough people willing to do it since the communiy is rather small...

JamesT73J · 03-06-10, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldorak

No, SCS make a half baked effort

I don't agree with this at all. There is nothing half-baked about DW, or SC for that matter. Both are comprehensive, complex simulations of modern naval warfare. There are no competitors - before or since - on the home computer platform. Fast attack was great fun, but pretty limited in scope. I'm grateful SCS produced 688/SC/DW because they are still delivering value today. It is a niche.

As for ease of use, I think DW is markedly harder than the SH series. SH1-4 can be picked up in a matter of minutes; in DW simply reaching correct weapons employment parameters takes a fair investment of time. Many are not willing to learn hat. Ironically, DW's plotting tools are very good, the WW2 sims could learn something from the map & sensor plotting screens on SCS products. Likewise, once you get over the bump in the learning curve the fundamentals (especially in subs) are the same for most platforms. Once you learn TMA, you don't forget it.

I'd love the silent hunter series to have the same variety of physical conditions that DW has (the acoustic model in SH feels pretty simplistic) The replayability of scenarios in DW is hugely interesting; for instance playing the same scenario as different platforms is an education in itself - and it is good fun.

DW's problem is one of image. It is seen as sterile and clinical; yet it delivers tension in spades once you get into it. People just don't seem interested in putting the time in.

Hawk66 · 03-06-10, 08:41 AM

By the way, is still somebody in contact with Sonalysts?
Do they still have an employee who is in charge of keeping contact with the community? Just being curious.

Dr.Sid · 03-08-10, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Do they still have an employee who is in charge of keeping contact with the community? Just being curious.

They did, now they don't. They dropped the support completely.

JustinReg · 06-08-10, 02:02 PM

Point and shoot is what is key here.

WWII you look at your target at close range, point and shoot, whatever weapon and watch the results.

Post WWII, you spend the entire time looking at sensor screen, fire at targets hundreds of miles away. Wait 20 mins for you missiles to get to the target you haven't seen and not watch the missiles terminal moments.

Nothing wrong with modern hardcore technical sims, but WWII is a lot easier for gamers as the technology was so much more basic and therefore easier to use with a fraction of the range. I don't want to use auto-crew if I can do it myself, I want to immerse myself.

This is why WWII has always been popular for games. Explosions big enough for anyone and easy to understand technology all conducted in visual range. Win, win, win.

S

NFunky · 06-10-10, 11:23 PM

The man speaks the truth. And it seems that as time goes on, the gaming world's attention span decreases. Modern high-tech warfare games, on the other hand, have to maintain a realistic (pretty slow) pace. This leads me to the unfortunate and very disappointing conclusion that modern naval warfare simulators, especially sub sims, will not be coming back any time soon. My gratitude goes out to SCS for publishing DW as it is definately the best we can expect to have in the near future.

Castout · 06-10-10, 11:57 PM

DW is hard for most casual players and the graphics are not appealing at all. This deter most gamers from trying out.

Add to the fact that modern naval engagement involves top secret data and information very much the kind of information that world governments want to conceal or purposely misguide the public.

DW fell prey to this too with no exception.
For example submarine countermeasures which in Sub Command didn't detonate spoofed torpedo now do though then Sonalysts release a patch to make this optional through a probability number.

Other thing such as the towed decoy not able to detonate incoming torpedoes. But the community soon found out the truth through simple logic that if sub countermeasures did detonate spoofed torpedoes why would navy warship still tow a decoy?!

. That leads to the answer that sub countermeasures don't detonate torpedoes and as last resort navy warship tow torpedo decoy to detonate them.

Things like this made me believe that most government don't want to see a society well informed and knowledgeable about military aspect of the state. It's understandable though since they regard much of this as a war winning information hence the confidentiality. Public could very well also consist of members of the enemy.

I'm saying that modern military games involve and will always involve substantial dumbing down and purposeful misguided, inaccurate implementation of the real thing be it ground, sea or air warfare.

03-05-10, 09:58 PM	#2
Flopper Weps Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Asheville, NC, USA Posts: 356 Downloads: 107 Uploads: 0	I thought it was because if there was some real action between modern subs, you would return to port and discover a nuclear wasteland. __________________

06-10-10, 11:57 PM	#12
Castout Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jakarta Posts: 4,794 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 6	DW is hard for most casual players and the graphics are not appealing at all. This deter most gamers from trying out. Add to the fact that modern naval engagement involves top secret data and information very much the kind of information that world governments want to conceal or purposely misguide the public. DW fell prey to this too with no exception. For example submarine countermeasures which in Sub Command didn't detonate spoofed torpedo now do though then Sonalysts release a patch to make this optional through a probability number. Other thing such as the towed decoy not able to detonate incoming torpedoes. But the community soon found out the truth through simple logic that if sub countermeasures did detonate spoofed torpedoes why would navy warship still tow a decoy?! . That leads to the answer that sub countermeasures don't detonate torpedoes and as last resort navy warship tow torpedo decoy to detonate them. Things like this made me believe that most government don't want to see a society well informed and knowledgeable about military aspect of the state. It's understandable though since they regard much of this as a war winning information hence the confidentiality. Public could very well also consist of members of the enemy. I'm saying that modern military games involve and will always involve substantial dumbing down and purposeful misguided, inaccurate implementation of the real thing be it ground, sea or air warfare. __________________ My blog: http://exposingsingapore.wordpress.com/ Last edited by Castout; 06-11-10 at 12:07 AM.

03-05-10, 09:48 PM	#1
Kaye T. Bai Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Western Hemisphere, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster Posts: 585 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	I'll have to agree with the bloke who mentioned the lack of modern sub simulators on the market today. The ones that have been out are very outdated; the ship models from Dangerous Waters are the same as those from Fleet Command, for crying out loud. The graphics for Dangerous Waters were outdated even for its time. It's hard to have a successful product without appealing to a wide audience. While Dangerous Waters was a great game, it was way too complicated for the average gamer. Imagine, Silent Hunter V in modern form. Without the online DRM and crappy voice acting. Realistic graphics, the ability to interact with your crew on a personal level (apart from fraternization, of course), and an easy to use interface and game engine. We can always imagine.

03-06-10, 04:53 AM	#6
Hawk66 Commodore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 609 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	I think the mentioned issues here give a good overview. Maybe it's a mixture between the romantic section of WWII (and there are more WWII naval movies than cold war ones) and the lack of emotion in DW. Perhaps only a community sim could replace DW since it seems that commerical vendors have no interest. IMO a good approach would be to have a modular appraoch: A naval simulation engine, a 3D/physics engine and so on and then various subprojects might provide plattforms etc. But probably there are not enough people willing to do it since the communiy is rather small...

03-06-10, 08:41 AM	#8
Hawk66 Commodore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 609 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	By the way, is still somebody in contact with Sonalysts? Do they still have an employee who is in charge of keeping contact with the community? Just being curious.

06-08-10, 02:02 PM	#10
JustinReg Swabbie Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 12 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Point and shoot is what is key here. WWII you look at your target at close range, point and shoot, whatever weapon and watch the results. Post WWII, you spend the entire time looking at sensor screen, fire at targets hundreds of miles away. Wait 20 mins for you missiles to get to the target you haven't seen and not watch the missiles terminal moments. Nothing wrong with modern hardcore technical sims, but WWII is a lot easier for gamers as the technology was so much more basic and therefore easier to use with a fraction of the range. I don't want to use auto-crew if I can do it myself, I want to immerse myself. This is why WWII has always been popular for games. Explosions big enough for anyone and easy to understand technology all conducted in visual range. Win, win, win. S

06-10-10, 11:23 PM	#11
NFunky Machinist's Mate Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 127 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	The man speaks the truth. And it seems that as time goes on, the gaming world's attention span decreases. Modern high-tech warfare games, on the other hand, have to maintain a realistic (pretty slow) pace. This leads me to the unfortunate and very disappointing conclusion that modern naval warfare simulators, especially sub sims, will not be coming back any time soon. My gratitude goes out to SCS for publishing DW as it is definately the best we can expect to have in the near future.