Why are WWII subsims popular and modern subsims not?

[Hawk66]

I know this might be already discussed here but I've just seen that there are already more posts in the Silent Hunter 5 main forum than here.
And Dangerous Water seems now to be at the end of its life cycle concerning attracting a considerable amount of new people and a successor might be never developed.

I really do not understand why WWII sims (in particular naval sims) are so much more popular than post-WWII.

The range of mission types/variety in DW is so much greater than - for example- in Silent Hunter. And is really the complexity the problem...with options like AutoCrew?

Is it just about the graphic/3D world?

[Molon Labe]

I think that's a great question, but I don't think I have a great answer.

My best guess is (1) that there is something romantic about the WWII time period, in terms of the scope of the war and what is at stake and in the technology involved--pretty much every tool of warfare we have today but just barely evolved out of their infancy. And (2), the reduced lethality of ASuW and ASW weapons compared to modern times makes WWII submarine combat much more tense for a longer time. For example, escaping a depth charge attack can provide a really tense experience that translates very well into a cinematic presentation. In modern ASW, the torpedo gets dropped on your head and that's pretty much the end; the crucial time isn't during the heart-stopping action but in the minutes before when you're trying to evade detection. That's more cerebral and doesn't translate as well into a cinematic experience.

[Castout]

Umm to me contemporary sub sim is not a popular genre because there has been lack of contemporary sub sim games that's commercially successful.

Most would conclude that is because contemporary sub sim has little appeal to the masses or gamers but that is a sorry excuse for me.

Prior to Silent Hunter 3 even WWII sub sim had little prospect of being commercially successful. Why? Simply because there had been no WWII sub sim that was worthy and successful in capturing the market interest and attention. Silent Hunter 3 proved that it's not so much about the genre that's being developed but more about the quality of the game being developed.

The mantra to successful business is to SET TRENDS and not follow them.
Thus I see NO REASON why modern sub sim could not be popular or even more popular than WWII thematic sub sim or even first person shooter.

[Evil Koala]

My guess would be because WWII sims are simpler. Easier to pick up, easier to learn, easier to play. Not to mention the shiney factor. A large number of SH players seem more concerned with how realistic the game looks rather than how realistic it plays.

In the end, WWII subsims are just more casual.

[JamesT73J]

I've been stuck in a hotel all week and have been playing DW/LWAMI. I tell you what, I would kill for DW's controls and plotting tools in the SH games. Those players don't know what they are missing.

To answer the question, modern sub sims are much harder.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

I really do not understand why WWII sims (in particular naval sims) are so much more popular than post-WWII.

What kills me is that in every other gaming genre technology for AI, physics, and graphics are exploding... *except* in the modern warfare sim genre.

Originally Posted by Evil Koala

My guess would be because WWII sims are simpler. Easier to pick up, easier to learn, easier to play. Not to mention the shiney factor. A large number of SH players seem more concerned with how realistic the game looks rather than how realistic it plays.

In the end, WWII subsims are just more casual.

I agree.
Starting game - the man simply wants to have a rest.
Modern sim - requires preliminary preparation.
But not everyone wants to read the user's Guide - 500 pages of volume.
And 3D the display - receives pleasure. (SH-3 for sample)

But many displays from flat gauges and technical op. data. (similarity MS Flight Simulator with in hundreds gauges, both arrows and lamps and all another :-) are not interesting and the tiring effect has..

[Castout]

When talking about modern sub sim most people are trapped with the thoughts of DW and only DW or SC.

There are many types of simulation. There's study sim such as Falcon 4.0 and Blackshark. There's immersion sim such as IL-2 and SH3 and SH4.


Then there's functionality sim such as Sub Command and Dangerous Waters.

I wouldn't call DW an immersion sim because it's not the type of game where you get to experience being a captain of a modern sub. I wouldn't call DW a study sim either because it's too simple to be one however DW tries to simulate the functionality of the many different naval warfare platform in the forms of working stations. This is the core of DW.

There's yet to be an immersion sim of modern sub game.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I think that's a great question, but I don't think I have a great answer.

My best guess is (1) that there is something romantic about the WWII time period, in terms of the scope of the war and what is at stake and in the technology involved--pretty much every tool of warfare we have today but just barely evolved out of their infancy. And (2), the reduced lethality of ASuW and ASW weapons compared to modern times makes WWII submarine combat much more tense for a longer time. For example, escaping a depth charge attack can provide a really tense experience that translates very well into a cinematic presentation. In modern ASW, the torpedo gets dropped on your head and that's pretty much the end; the crucial time isn't during the heart-stopping action but in the minutes before when you're trying to evade detection. That's more cerebral and doesn't translate as well into a cinematic experience.

No I don't think this is the reason. Otherwise games such as Red Storm Rising, Sierra Fast Attack and other modern cold war sub sims would never have had success. So making a cold war sim can be as exciting, romantic, graphic intense as any WW II subsim. Clearly there was/is a market for cold war sims, and no don't take DW as a measure of this market because its in some sense a game/sim devoid of any "emotion". People that loved Red Storm Rising or Sierra Fast Attack can hate DW and I wouldn't blame them in the least.
I just think that the industry is risk averse. Ask yourselves why over 90% of all fps are WW2 based ? When Infinity Ward said no, no more WW2 fps for us, we will develop an fps based on a modern setting everyone said they were crazy. We all know that a successful videogames HAS TO BE BASED in ww2. This is a kind of stupid assumption, because up to the late ninties sims spanned all historical periods. Hell its only now that a new WWI flight sim is on the market.

Dangerous Waters, made with same kind of attention to detail, animation, graphics, ambience that Sierra Fast Attack had would have been an enormous success, way beyond the market of hard core simmers.
Who doesn't want to be a Captain Marko Ramius ? Who doesn't want to go intelligence gathering and attacking those pesky soviets in the Kara Sea ?

No, SCS make a half baked effort and thats why this sim failed in the general market. This is the real truth, not that people are stupid and can't handle the complexity. If this were the case Flight Sims would have disapeared ages ago.

Ps: The idea that WW2 subsims are simpler is just wrong. SH 3 played on 100% realism is as difficult to master as DW.

[CapitanPiluso]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Dangerous Waters, made with same kind of attention to detail, animation, graphics, ambience that Sierra Fast Attack had would have been an enormous success, way beyond the market of hard core simmers.

Thats really true.

You can find detail,animation,graphics and more in SH, but not in DW, unless you are a sim nerd ( like me and many others here)

Regards.

[Castout]

Well DW at 100% realism with manual everything feels more like work than gaming

[Kaye T. Bai]

I'll have to agree with the bloke who mentioned the lack of modern sub simulators on the market today.

The ones that have been out are very outdated; the ship models from Dangerous Waters are the same as those from Fleet Command, for crying out loud. The graphics for Dangerous Waters were outdated even for its time. It's hard to have a successful product without appealing to a wide audience. While Dangerous Waters was a great game, it was way too complicated for the average gamer.

Imagine, Silent Hunter V in modern form. Without the online DRM and crappy voice acting. Realistic graphics, the ability to interact with your crew on a personal level (apart from fraternization, of course), and an easy to use interface and game engine.

We can always imagine.

[Flopper]

I thought it was because if there was some real action between modern subs, you would return to port and discover a nuclear wasteland.

[Kaye T. Bai]

Originally Posted by Flopper

I thought it was because if there was some real action between modern subs, you would return to port and discover a nuclear wasteland.

Wouldn't that make the genre popular?

"Post-Apocalyptic Submarine Warfare!"

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Kaye T. Bai

Wouldn't that make the genre popular?

"Post-Apocalyptic Submarine Warfare!"

On the Beach anyone?