Should the devs be blamed ?

[jdkbph]

Originally Posted by Bishop7

You keep letting them give you crap, crap is all you will ever get.
It's statements like thi, that bring us to the place we are at in gaming.
Where they think it's ok to give us garbage and let us deal with it.
In the days of nintendo, every game worked.
That's the way it should be.

I understand you're angry and frustrated. But you really should take a few minutes to actually read what's being said and think about how your reply will be received.

I did not say I was satisfied with the current state of affairs. I was pointing out that the cause may be other than you believe it to be. You're lashing out at the devs and, IMHO, that may be unfair.

And to your Nintendo point... if you really want to go back in the day and extrapolate forward, try this one on for size. I remember buying games for my Commodore 64 back in the early 80s... they came on a tape or a floppy disk with a Xeroxed manual all packaged in a plastic baggie. The first truly commercial computer games were better packaged but otherwise much the same.

The price?... $50.

Tell me.... what other entertainment products have you seen go through such a dramtic transformation (mostly positive) while holding the same price point for 30 years?

I think about this and smile every time I read a post where someone is complaining about the price of these games.

Did labor costs go down over the last 30 years? Did it get any easier or cheaper to develop, publish and distribute these games?

These guys are in business... the difference had to made up somewhere. The audience had to be expanded. Those companies that didn't get it - and that would be 90% + of all the major software houses that sprang up over the years BTW - are no longer with us.

I think about this too every time I read a post where someone is complaining about lack of game play or attention to detail in the latest gee-whiz eye candy extravaganza.

I'm not smiling when I think about that.

But hey... it's not all bad. You want quality? You want game play? You want the detail and accuracy in your games that only comes from passion and pride in the product all up and down the management chain? Head over to Matrix Games and check out their line up. Of course don't expect to be floored by the eye candy. You just can't get it all in one package these days... not for $50 anyway.

JD

[skwasjer]

Some of you have NO clue whatsoever regarding (game) development and the amount of work involved. Sure, we should not get a buggy product, I agree, but I personally am quite a perfectionist, but none of my (commercial) products have been bug free.

Windows/Mac/Linux? Bugs... Motherboard? Bugs... Smart phone? Bugs... What about 1 million cars with bad brakes or tires? What about that faulty pour of concrete in your new house? What about faulty hydraulics in a jetliner? Really, put it in perspective.

Now I will admit I would be pissed of as well if the software product does not work as advertised (I don't have SH5), but it doesn't really help your case if you start attacking the company that made it. Your best bet is to remain calm and friendly, sum up the issues you experience, and wait for an answer/solution. Or don't buy it at all. There's always more ways of voicing your dislikes and concerns, but not all methods bring you what you wish for. Yelling only distances the company away.

Now that I've said this, I do hope Ubi whips out another patch for those of you experiencing some of the showstopping problems. But I'm sure they will deliver...

Originally Posted by Bishop7

Gunno, stop monitoring your guys messages and start spending your time making products that work.
or you can have fun telling your GF or wife or whatever, why you get no christmas bonus next time around.

Bishop7 , I am deeply sorry, but I think you've misunderstood, I am Romanian and I was one of the main "attackers" of elanaiba, he was making a reference that he "made an effort" to respond to my "accusations". If you will carefully read that particular post, you will understand better. I have nothing related to UBI, except anger! But I will stop here now, my "vendetta" with them is over, I've attracted so much antipathy from some forum members enough for my entire life doing that ... I am not afraid, but I am bored already, anyway, we are just saying things in vain. I have two options:
1. to forget about SH5 forever;
2. to forget about SH5 at least 6 months or a year, when MAYBE the game will be playable.

[AVGWarhawk]

SH4 is still broken in some respects for sure. You realize that when you mod the files. Yep, it sucks. So I agree with you there Bishop. For now and probably forever this is all we will have in a reasonably good submarine game. So we take our lumps and send a few back to UBI. However, we have something that provides hours of entertainment and in some respects let downs (sounds like my wife). The other mutiplayer games like COD get old after awhile. Flight sims not so much. I played those for years.

[KG_Jag]

Call me old fashion, but when I buy something--anything--I expect it to be reliable and reasonably fit for its purpose. That is why (at least until recently), I would buy a small car from Toyota or Nissan and not from Yugo.

When I rent something, I don't expect to pay as much as if I had bought that same thing. One of the reasons I bought it is that I can keep and use it for as long as I like in most any way I like.

Is SH5 a product I should consider buying? It sure doesn't sound like it.

[FIREWALL]

As has been posted before.... The Devs can make suggestions to the publisher (Ubisoft) but they still work for them and do as their told.

Simple concept, why are most of you so thick to understand it.

Go tell your boss your going to do it YOUR way instead of his and, see how long YOU have a job.

[tater]

Regarding multiplay, there is a way to have really good submarine multiplay, IMO.

Players play their campaigns "offline" as usual, but obviously with a net connection (like OSP, actually, only this idea ADDS VALUE that makes it worthwhile).

When the game spots enemy units it goes online and looks for players interested in joining in as the enemy in your campaign. When the enemy AI in your game make a detection on your sub—or if your sub makes an attack that alerts them, then the game goes and fetches real players to take over some escorts. To the player it is 100% transparent, they have no idea if their target will be 100% AI, 100% players, or something in between.

Other players can join in taking over AI ships. If an online player has to leave, the ship reverts to AI status.

This would need a mature escort "game within a game." Heck, there is a paid add-on for you. Silent Hunter: Atlantic Destroyers or whatever. Heck, flight sim guys might love Silent Hunter: Coastal Command. You lanch the Ubi OSP widget, and "subscribe" to SH:CC, and when a player has Sunderlands sent out after him, it offers an ASW mission to subscribe "coastal Command" players. They hit "accept" and they take over the plane, and start their hunt. Submarine players never know if that dot is a crappy AI POS, or a player hell bent on seeing an oil slick.

THAT is how you add online value to a submarine game.

[Charlie901]

I think the Dev's should be blamed now only if they insist and expect the Modding Community to fix/add the mandatory missing content...

NOw that this game is retail they have an obligation and expecting the Modding community to take over is ludacris at this point.


Mods should only add to the game not replce features and fix bugs that were in all previous versions...!!!

[AVGWarhawk]

I would have to agree there tater! That would be very nice to play.

Regarding bugs in software..

I have been involved in addon developing for Falcon 4 for nearly a decade now - no new sim for us fast jet fan boys. But we now have the most modern, realistic and multiplayer friendly sim in existence - surpasing some of the airforces sims around the globe (at least one of the Danish Airforce's sims)

But we allso have bugs in our latest stuff. And even when we fix them we will have bugs.

Now we can either opt to stop using the sim and be grumpy, or we can learn to live with the bugs and circumvent them untill that bug is fixed and another is introduced - such is the life of a simmer.

The main problem with being a simmer vs. being a gamer is that we allways want more, more and more realistic stuff.....and it never ends.

Come on over to the bright side - leave the dark side!! - and be happy with what you CAN have right now, and look forward to what we will have with Mods or Dev's help in 6 months time. Untill then you can use what is ther - getting used to it and.....may God forbid...like some of it.

Personaly ill start by making small personal mods to increase my "feel of realism" and to build up my library of real documentation on using a U-boot. The other day i got a copy of the "recognitions manual" used via ebay "Die Handelsflotten der Welt 1942 und Nachtrag 1944" and when time fits i will scan in the pages containing the ships of SH-5 and make a PDF manual mod that people can print. Ill allso use the time to make a few of the REALY cool sliderules that fx. Hitman have stood father to.

In other words - you dont have to neglect the bugs, but you can circumvent them and look forward to a fix. Cus knowing this great community - fixed they will be !!

[tater]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I would have to agree there tater! That would be very nice to play.

As I've said before, I have no interest in u-boats except as: oil slicks, wreckage, or prizes (though Admiral King would be mightily POed if I towed a u-boat into port possibly under the 'scopes of other u-boats (cause it would encourage a code change).).

I'd happily buy the ATO escort game, particularly if my efforts ended player u-boat campaigns

[Onkel Neal]

OT FYI: Bishop decided to send me an obscenity-filled PM, and I really can't spend time on people lilke that, so he's not going to be part of this forum any longer.

Please continue.

[Iron Budokan]

It's an easy cop out to say "The boss made me do it."

The devs should be held accountable for some aspects of this game that was under their control.

Underwater bug? Since /3? And it's in this iteration, too? Seriously?

Come on. It's always easy to blame corporate executives. Sometimes negligence has a partner, that's all I'm saying.

[Egan]

First off I would like to say that I think the word 'blamed' is the wrong one. The developers have nothing to be 'blamed' for. They work for a large company that has a certain set of priorities and certain methods that allow them to achieve those priorities. They don't deserve the demonization that is beginning to make itself more obvious around here. FWIW I also don't believe in the opposite extreme where they have been almost sainted by various people.

What it comes down to is this: the devs are people who work for a games company. They clearly have an interest in world war two submarines but, at the end of the day, they are professional games developers who will work on whatever product they are tasked with because they are professionals and they need to eat, cloth their families and pay the mortgage. Unlike Firewall i don't think people are thick for forgetting some of this stuff but I do think that the weird fandamentalism - wordplay intended - that has increased in the gaming community as a whole over the last few years seems to force common sense out of peoples heads.

Beyond this is another point I would like to make: while I don't think the word 'Blamed' is the right one, I still think the developers, as the ones who made the actual game, should take some responsibility for it. Yes, they take their orders from management. So do I, so do a lot of you. But orders from management don't absolve us of taking responsibility for the quality of the job we do.

I have seen nothing so far that suggests to me that the developers will not take responsibility for the game. In fact, Dan's post in the other thread tells me that they are aware of many of the game's failings. I am sure many things will be patched. I am sure many things will not be and I'm fairly positive that it will never be the simulator I or many other people wanted. Here's the thing: Neither SH3 or SH4 were the sim I wanted but I thought both of them were a lot of fun. It's probably worth pointing out that nobody has yet made the sub sim I would be 100% in love with. And while I also don't believe that there should be a tacit compact between the devs and modders whereby the modders end up fixing the game (compass anyone?), I'm at least thankful that someone over there had the foresight and decency to provide us with a game that appears to be pretty moddable.

I don't own SH5 yet, and I have no plans on doing so for a while and not only because of the issues that have arisen. I do think it was brave to introduce new and unfamiliar features to the game. The chance to actually skipper a u-boat instead of playing all the roles is something I've been interested in for a while. That other traditional and tested features seem to have been hit is not something I feel good about but all we can do is see how it pans out.

I know I'm not the target demographic any more and that they don't make sims for people like me (which is rubbish by the way as anyone who has played Over Flanders's Field or Black Shark or read the recent interview with Maddox about Storm of War can verify,) but it think many of us forget that there ARE devs and publishers out there who still make damn good games and sims. it might take a while but I'm sure one day we will see a sub sim that presses all the buttons. Until then I've still got SH4.

Oh, and can we please dump all the silly car metaphors at the login button please. They don't work. If Sh5 crashes it doesn't throw me through the windscreen.

Just my thoughts.

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

As has been posted before.... The Devs can make suggestions to the publisher (Ubisoft) but they still work for them and do as their told.

Simple concept, why are most of you so thick to understand it.

Go tell your boss your going to do it YOUR way instead of his and, see how long YOU have a job.

Still all to SLOW HUH ???

Please stop all the long winded posts all you fast "touch typist secretarys"

@ Neal... Maybe after all members get their preorders and play and post their opinions... You can put your easy going foot down and SAY ... OK now we work positively and FIX IT!!! And quit wasting energy laying blame.

Neal... It's your way or... the Hiway.

btwe Neal aren't these new mods kool ?