IM New website just changed. Crew abilities.Twins gone?

[JScones]

Originally Posted by gum22

There were two Divisions (Seaman's and Technicians). There were two OR three watches depending on which Division a man was in, which job the man was performing, etc.

The IWO and IIWO were both commissioned line officers and members of the Seaman's Division. The LI (ie- commisioned Chief Engineer) led the Technician's Division. The Obersteurmann (<--ie Navigator) was IIIWO on most Type VII's. He was a senior EM. The Oberbootsmann (ie the Crew Chief or Chief of the Boat) was often tasked with being 4th Watch Officer. The IWO and IIWO both stood two tower/bridge watches per day. The IIIWO and OBtsMn split the other eight hour tower/bridge watch period between them (ie stood one each).

Gumby

This is pretty much what I was just about to post.

4 Watch Officers, with 3 and 4 being split between Nav and Bosun. 4 hour watches.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

RealFleetBoat User Manual v1.52 says "It reality, German u-boats had two watches: Port and Starboard. From 0800 to 2000 hours, the watches rotated every four hours. From 2000 to 0800 hours, the watch rotated every six hours."

Seems RFB possibly misquoted from a David Miller book?

Reality was:

Seaman worked 8 hours duty, 8 hours sleep, 8 hours misc duties
Engineers worked 6 hours duty, 6 hours sleep (repeated)
Comms worked split 3 x 4 hours (0800-2000) and 2 x 6 hours (2000-0800)

On the surface, 1WO and 2WO did 2 x 4 hour watch shifts per day
Nav and Bosun 1 x 4 hour watch shift per day
Lookouts came mainly from Seaman stream doing 1 x 4 hour watch shift per day

As confirmed in the first two reference books I just laid my hands on:
U-boats by Miller, David
U-boat Crewman Of WWII by Williamson, Gordon

[gum22]

Spot on, JScones. To add to the references/confirmation for crew watch cycles, crew duties etc, folks can also see:

Type VII U-Boats by Robert C. Stern

Wolfpack by Gordon Williamson

and my personal favorite on the subject of who did what, when, on a Type VII...

U-Boat War Patrol, The Hidden Photographic Diary of U564 by Lawrence Patterson. This puppy follows Teddy Suhren (former IWO on U48) and crew on one single combat patrol in summer of 1942, the one on which he was awarded the Crossed Swords for his Knight's Cross and Oak Leaves. There was a Kriegsmarine combat photographer aboard U564 for the patrol and Patterson does an incredible job of meshing all of the photos with a great story of the patrol down to the tiny details.

In fact, it is my belief that the SHV Dev's have modelled the "character" of their SHV IIIWO after Stabsobersteuermann Karl "Sturkorl" Limburg, U564's navigator and "old man".

Regards,

Gumby

PS- One of my joys in SH3 is SH3 Commander. I've said it before- I'll say it again- THANKS for your utilities JSCones! They are indspensable and have literally added YEARS of replayability to SH3.

[Rosencrantz]

To JScones:


Exellent post, once again. However I doubt this:

Nav and Bosun 1 x 4 hour watch shift per day

I doubt if bosun was ever really in charge, unless it was actually "captain's watch", - which I doubt too. (As far as I know, it was usually only special ocassions, like leaving/entering pier, daily dives, and so on, when the U-boat commander took watch himself.) Could be author's mistake?


-RC-

[gum22]

Originally Posted by Rosencrantz

To JScones:


Exellent post, once again. However I doubt this:



I doubt if bosun was ever really in charge, unless it was actually "captain's watch", - which I doubt too. (As far as I know, it was usually only special ocassions, like leaving/entering pier, daily dives, and so on, when the U-boat commander took watch himself.) Could be author's mistake?


-RC-

Bosun or "Number One" was actually in charge of the bridge/tower watch for 4 hours a day. He was the Crew Chief, usually an Oberfeldwebel (ie- an Unteroffiziere mit Portepee aka a Warrant Officer equivelent in US terms ie a Senior NCO in the Kriegsmarine). His duties as "Number One" sailor (aka "Chief of the Boat" in US Naval parlance) was to maintain discipline and order among the enlisted crew, maintain clothing and uniforms, maintain the general cleanliness on boat, act as Artillery Chief and to act as Fourth Watch Officer. He had a full plate of duties keeping the problems of the crew from reaching the level where they might require the attention of the Skipper, and he had the authority to deal out discipline.

The Bosun's battlestation aboard U564 was in the conning tower where he input information relayed from the Captain (attack periscope) or IWO (surface torpedo attack) into the TDC.

The Bosun also led a 4-hour tower watch. The IWO stood two tower 4-hour watches, the IIWO stood 2, the IIIWO/ObStMn stood 1 and the Bosun stood 1.

As far as whether or not he was ever really "in charge" I expect it depended quite a bit on the Boat. For example, in the Kriegsmarine, if a midshipman was aboard, I suppose the middy might technically be "in charge" of the tower, even though he was assigned to the Bosun or the IIIWO's watch as a lowly green lookout....

Gumby

PS- I'm gonna post a complete example of the watch cycle on U564 shortly in a dedicated thread...

[gum22]

Originally Posted by Rosencrantz

To JScones:


Exellent post, once again. However I doubt this:



I doubt if bosun was ever really in charge, unless it was actually "captain's watch", - which I doubt too. (As far as I know, it was usually only special ocassions, like leaving/entering pier, daily dives, and so on, when the U-boat commander took watch himself.) Could be author's mistake?


-RC-

Doubt it was author's mistake since I have several sources which seem to agree. Bosun was technically a senior enlisted man, but in US Naval terms he was the rough equivelent of a Senior Warrant Officer and had quite a bit of authority on a Type VII, including commonly the duty to act as Fourth Watch Officer. I'm fixing to post a complete crew watch bill for U564, just correlating my sources at the moment. (Patterson, Gordon, Stern, Showell et al).

Regards,

Gumby

[Rosencrantz]

Hello, Gumby!


I'm familiar with Patterson's book about the Suhren's U-564. And there author clearly states that only IWO, IIWO and Navigator (Oberstuermann) were acting as WO, while bosun was indeed "number one of the crew".

Then there is for example Stern, who claims in his book "Type VII U-boats" that also bosun stood watches as WO, i.e. he would have been the fourth WO on board. However, I still doubt this. Or have you ever heard about US Navy CPO or Warrant Officer, who has driven a Fleet Boat on patrol or elsewhere? If I'm wrong, just get me straight.

What I'm thinking about is PO or CPO acting as WO while boat/ship is tied in the pier. As far as I know it's done all the time even nowadays, so why not 60 or 70 years ago, when many things were much more simple? So, maybe Stern got these two situations (enroute/in pier) messed?

Another possible answer to the question might be also that Bosuns striking on their navigator's qualification were given WO duties. But, as far as I know, Kriegsmarine was pretty much "no papers - no job" employer, i.e. if you did not have a proper qualification there was less chance you got the job. And I have a feeling that this was one big difference between, let's say, Kriegsmarine and US Navy, for example. Someone from Germany might be able to confirm this, I believe.


-RC-

[Brag]

I don't know about Kriesmarine. In various navies it is possible for an NCO or not a fully qualified officer to stand watch as long as they pass a qualifying exam. This usually requires a 100% passing score in rules of the read and a few other exams.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by JScones

Seems RFB possibly misquoted from a David Miller book?

My data came from Uboat.net, where it talks about the radio room watch rotations, and this page from the interrogation of the crew of U-76:

Bridge Watch

Prisoners stated that when the U-Boat was on the surface the watch on the bridge consisted of one officer, one petty officer and two ratings.

Engine-room Watches

The Chief Mechanician of "U 76" stated that there are two engine-room watches in U-Boats; each watch consists of three petty officers for the Diesels, four ratings for the electric motors, and three men in the control room.

The watches are from 0200 to 0800, 0800 to 1200, 1200 to 1600, 1600 to 2000 and 2000 to 0200 (German time).

W/T and Listening Gear Watches

W/T and listening gear watches in U-Boats are performed by two petty officers and two ratings. One of these four men is always on duty, keeping W/T watch when on the surface and listening watch when submerged. The two Petty officers are responsible for entering all signals in the W/T logs and for making out any reports. The two ratings act also as officer's servants, and help with meals.

EDIT:

The final roster of U-76 at the time of its sinking consisted of the following:

Oberleutnant-zur-See: 2
Leutnant-zur-See: 1
Leutnant (Ing.): 1

Obermaschinist: 2
Maschinenmaat: 4
Maschinenobergefreiter: 9
Maschinengefreiter: 3

Funkmaat: 2
Funkobergefreiter: 1
Funkgefreiter: 1

Obersteuermann: 1
Steuermannsmaat: 1

Bootsmann: 1
Bootsmaat: 2

Mechanikersmaat: 1
Mechanikergefreiter: 3

Matrosenobergefreiter: 2
Matrosenobergefreiter: 5

[JScones]

@LukeFF: Engine Room Watches <> Bridge Watches. Having not read your manual, I don't know what you were trying to say, but someone here attributed it to bridge watch times, which is not the case.

@Rosencrantz: USN <> Kriegsmarine. I don't know what else I can say as you have read similar sources from reputable historians and still choose to dismiss them.

[Rosencrantz]

JScones wrote:

@Rosencrantz: USN <> Kriegsmarine. I don't know what else I can say as you have read similar sources from reputable historians and still choose to dismiss them.

Sorry, JScones, but I don't get what you mean? What do you mean when talking "similar sources"? Or didn't you noticed there is conflict between Stern and Patterson? Even less I understand your statement how I'm "dismissing them". Which them? I doubt if Stern is right - no matter about his reputation - and I'm more with Patterson. Why? Because most of the sources I have ever read agrees with him.


-RC-

[Letum]

I see that the website now lists one crew member as "Willi PelzRoyal_Oak".

Must be bring your kid to work day at Ubisoft.

[Brag]

Originally Posted by Letum

I see that the website now lists one crew member as "Willi PelzRoyal_Oak".

Must be bring your kid to work day at Ubisoft.

Letum, that's the funniest

Made me squirt a cloud of rum.

[Rosencrantz]

Letum wrote:

I see that the website now lists one crew member as "Willi PelzRoyal_Oak".

What next?


-RC-

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by Letum

I see that the website now lists one crew member as "Willi PelzRoyal_Oak".

Must be bring your kid to work day at Ubisoft.

Why bother worrying about something that can probably be changed with notepad . It does look stupid though

[Brag]

Ubi's marketing is a laffaminute show. I guess that's why they consider themselves in the entertainment industry