If they cant do AI wolfpacks...

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by sober

Asking to have wofpacks is easy . Getting it to work in game would be a game within a game , very hard and time consuming i would imagine . But this is how i would do it . As in uboat add on , instead of the scout plane there would be an invisible scout sub . The scout sub continuously scouts and in the same time compression as yourself . If on its random scouting of the entire grids it happens to detect a ship or convoy that is within a certain random distance from your sub then it will generate a location and ask for assistance . This would only happen in the historic time frame , months, years they had wofpacks . This is a start anyway and i would expect at least this in SH5 . See then you could go to the mission editor and script it or keep it random like you do with other vessels in the campaign . Its all about modding and being able to mod it .

hmm fine - but actual AI subs also need to fit in to the equasion somehow,
Would be nice to appoach a convoy to see that some ships are already damaged - or the Escorts are off blasting another Sub.
Sick and tired of having ALL escorts zero in on me - the second my first torpedo hits.
Im just saying that having wolf packs purley as an invisible entinity doesnt cut the mustard -for me anyway.

[The General]

What about integrating multiplayer into career mode somehow? Let's say every time you click the 'Summon other u-boat captains' icon in the radio room, a dialogue window opens with a chat forum so you can request help from other captains online worldwide and they help you take on a convoy , taskforce or whatever? Come on, it's not the craziest idea in the world?!

[IanC]

Just apply whatever wolfpack system was used for Aces of the Deep. That's good enough for me!

[GoldenRivet]

I got to thinking. You wouldn't have to have another campaign layer for AI boats.

airplanes have airbases as spawn points... the AI BDU detects whether or not you are within range of one of these air bases, and it decides based on a % chance whether or not to send air units to assist you.

why not just have a bunch of hidden AI U-boat spawn points?

you could scatter perhaps 20 or 30 AI U-boat spawn points throughout the North Atlantic, and perhaps 4 or 5 in the south Atlantic and so on.

The spawn radius of each of these AI U-boat spawn points would be something like 150nm or 200nm or something of the sort.

if you are within this spawn radius and you send in a contact report, the AI BDU would then decide based on a % chance how many AI U-boats would theoretically be occupying that radius... then it would decide how many would be responding to your contact report.

The AI U-boats initialized for response to your contact report would then spawn, and set maximum speed toward an intercept point which would be based on the speed and course provided by you in your contact report.

BDU would then provide periodic updates, "U-42 and U-96 have been redirected to assist you, they expect contact in 10 hours."

BDU would then update you on the progress of their arrival on attack stations "U-42 and U-96 have provided tactical updates and will arrive to assist in attack in 5 hours."

and finally "All boats are assuming attack positions, begin attack at 0600 GMT"

to prevent AI U-boats persuing convoys to the ends of the earth and/or attacking until they are killed... i think that a limitation should be placed on AI U-Boats that they will break off their attack and leave the area when one of three conditions are met

1. they have fired 5 torpedoes.

2. they have expended half of their battery life.

3. they have suffered some form of damage.

Finally, for increased immersion, when a contact report is received by the player (as is so often the case) BdU should direct the player to break off of his current duties and respond to the contact report, when the player arrives he may or may not see other u-boats preparing to attack... however there should come a message from BDU "Boats are assuming attack positions, begin attack at 1800 GMT"

this way it is not always the player initiating the wolf pack tactic.

the pro of doing this

* it is more historically accurate as to real life u-boat operations and BDU micromanagement... hard core players would greatly appreciate the added realism

the con of doing this

* many players like the idea of cruising around having the world to themselves... they might not enjoy being micromanaged.

there should be a realism option to allow for the inclusion of AI wolfpacks... in other words if the player selects "No AI U-boats" it will just disable the U-boat spawn points.

in summation

1. Scatter AI U-Boat spawn points around the map

2. When the player sends a contact report for a convoy (not a single ship) the AI BDU engine will determine whether or not AI U-boat spawn criteria are met

3. if AI U-boat spawn criteria are met... x number of U-boats will be directed to join you in your attack and will head toward an intercept point at max speed.

4. the player will have to hold off on his attack and provide updates so that the "intercept point" of the AI U-boats can be further updated

5. so as to prevent the player from Time skipping through his own attack, BDU will provide updates as to the position of incoming u-boats at 24 hour, 12 hour, 10 hour, 5 hour, 3 2 and 1 hour intervals.

6. finally, when all boats are within visual distance of the convoy, BDU will direct the attack to commence at some later time... this gives the player a time frame to get established into position and prepare to fire his torpedoes - and prevents the AI from attacking before the player is ready... this keeps all hell from breaking lose before you are even in position to attack.

7. When an AI boat has 1. fired 5 torpedoes, 2. used up half of their battery or 3. suffered damage... the AI u-boat will break contact and head it's own separate random direction.

[THE_MASK]

Or just do it all thru the mission editor .

[GoldenRivet]

doing it in the mission editor is ok for single missions... but there is no dynamic element involved - and most people would want wolfpacks in the career mode.

you cant just put AI boats out in the ocean and expect wolfpacks to form... very specific programing routines have to be followed for the AI to function properly.

[THE_MASK]

I know what your saying , but i hope modders have some control over wolfpacks . Wheres the modders control over the scout plane in uboat addon ?

[GoldenRivet]

my guess would be that if there are AI spawn points in the atlantic... the modders could place as many or as few additional spawn points as they would like.

it would probably be a simple CFG file with spawn points being located in various grid squares with parameters by year/ month / spawn radius and the number and type of u-boats etc.

the game engine just has to have something to look at to determine what type of boat to spawn, how many of them to spawn and where to spawn them.

there are only 2 possibilities as far as AI u-boat spawns

1. the game engine spawns an appropriate number of boats

or

2. it doesnt

based on the spawn parameters listed in its programing for deciding whether or not to spawn AI boats

however, if the game engine elects not to spawn... a radio dialogue should be scripted for such occurrences

Example

BDU radios out: "[Player U-boat] has reported a large convoy in grid square CE17 Course 096, speed 8 kts. U-47 and U-96 are instructed to intercept and assist with convoy attack."

now... if the game engine decides not to spawn U-47 for example... radio dialogue would express this

U-47 radios back: "U-47 damaged by depth charges and low on fuel, unable to assist player U-boat, returning to port at this time."

any AI boat that was not spawned - a radio dialogue would be developed to indicate a reason for the boat not responding to your report

conversely any u-boat that was planning to respond would indicate intentions to do so.

"U-96 changing course and intercepting convoy as assigned at maximum speed, expect intercept in 11 hours in Grid Square CE18."

these radio dialogues could pretty much always be the same for every U-boat with 2 or 3 variable responses... the only variables in the messages themselves would of course be the U numbers, Grid Squares and the estimated time to intercept

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

doing it in the mission editor is ok for single missions... but there is no dynamic element involved - and most people would want wolfpacks in the career mode.

you cant just put AI boats out in the ocean and expect wolfpacks to form... very specific programing routines have to be followed for the AI to function properly.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the mission editor (presuming of course that there will be one included in the release)

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it won't already include a dynamic element.

Wishful thinking I know.....but you just never know

Really guys....implementing Wolfpacks is not rocket science. The devs will have no problem implementing them if UBI decide to run with them.

[karamazovnew]

I'm not a fan of spawn points. For example I've just finished Max Payne AGAIN. The only thing that agravated me was enemies spawning after certain triggers so close to me that I couldn't do anything but quickload . It ruined the entire game, felt more like a quick-time event than shooting real bad guys. At least in Max Payne 2, these spawns were made by cars rushing through fences and stuff like that, giving me time to think a strategy.

What I've always liked about SH was that the ships felt quite real (apart from being generic and completely mute). I'd like them to be even more real, to spawn only at construction docks then transfer to ports to load up, wait for a convoy to be assembled then go across the Atlantic to a secret meeting with my eels . And if I hit a ship but not sink her, I'd like her to go to port for repairs than resume work. Now that's about ships...

But I care much more about Uboats, I mean, they're my commarades, brothers in arms (or water). I want them to suffer like I do, have malfunctions and have to eat the same soup. I want them to scream proudly on the radio when they sink ships. This might sound weird but when I play GRID singleplayer I actually have one rival I totally hate, even if he's AI. A bit of competition on that tonnage leaderboard would be nice. If such a layer would be done correctly, one expansion could be something like "Silent Hunter 5: BdU", where at the end of a succesfull 2-3 year career you'd be asigned to a deskjob and be able to manage the entire uboat war and jump to any sub you want to sink ships yourself.

Sure, even spawn points for uboats are better than nothing but for me at least, it will ruin the feel. I'd have to smoke something or drink to forget about it and immerse myself in the game

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

I'm not a fan of spawn points.

well in silent hunter things spawn only at a good distance away from you (just over the horizon and outside of the distance you can see in most cases) or they dont spawn at all so its not going to pop up in front of you like many games do which i agree about that being really silly and ruins many games

i think wolfpacks are easy to do but hard to manage because they already have the ability in sh4 to call for air support and a plane shows up after a little while so switch the plane out for a few AI controlled u-boats and theres your wolfpack.

i cant see them doing a detailed thing where you have to tell them what to do or plan the attack for them. that would ruin the game in my opinion which is about "you and your crew" not a fleet of subs you push buttons to control or send orders out to like some admiral sitting behind a desk.

instead of the wolfpack showing up on your location like planes do (because planes are fast enough to do that) you should have to give a course and speed of convoy and get a return message of something like "wolfpack will meet you at grid xyz, shadow and report any course changes" weather delays or something could randomly fubar the ambush and you go it alone.

the biggest thing i see as a problem with wolfpacks is making the game look right and the two main AI glitches that i can see to overcome are:

1 if DD go after the wolfpack will you be left alone? this makes the game too easy.

2 if the DD do go after you then how many? if destroyed will any more come after you? if all DD come after you as they do in sh4 right now then this would be a realism killer and would look stupid.

[raymond6751]

And I said 'Let there be a data base' and Lo it came to pass. A data base of uboats out, coming in, at port. Each launches from port after suitable delay and proceeds to a pre-determined grid (currently decided pack location).

At that point the sub simply attacks any enemy shipping found during given time on station. Player sub is informed by radio of current pack location and captain can decide if he is in range to join in.

Pack location can be determined based on time & convoy routes, changed by events/time/weather patterns/player location. Pack must move to new locations at realistic pace.

We already have combat between surface ships in game, so it should not be a stretch to have combat involving ai subs.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

1 if DD go after the wolfpack will you be left alone? this makes the game too easy.

2 if the DD do go after you then how many? if destroyed will any more come after you? if all DD come after you as they do in sh4 right now then this would be a realism killer and would look stupid.

1) But in reality thats exactly what made the packs so successful! (in the early days of the wolfpack), the pack got between the convoy lanes and the escorts where overwhelmed to the point they could do little more than intimidate the uboats with gun fire and force them to dive - before moving on.
Since the packs struck a night the escorts had an difficult task to pin point the Uboats with out any radar equipment.

Unlike SH3 /SH4 Convoy Escorts would not hunt the Uboat until is was lost or sunk while leaving the convoy to sail off into the horizon - their orders were to stick to the convoy like glue.
Wolf packs will hopefully help remedy this pretty major flaw in Escort behaviour (of the past two games)

People tend forget, you wont likely be attacking in Wolf packs for 80-90% of your career. So overall it will not effect the games difficulty.
If it does happen that way on occasion, then count you self lucky and sink some tonnage while the escorts are preoccupied.

2) Again this is unrealistic behavior for convoy Escorts.
However the escorts AI in SH3/Sh4 is already capable of handling mutiple threats and its really no different from the way AI Bots respond to you and team mates in Squad based First person shooter like ArmA or Battlefield 2. You can test it in SH3 or 4, fire up a mission where some hostile DDs have to choose between you and some other freindly vessels.... then see how they deal with it.


In short I'm saying what ever happens with Wolfpacks, it will work much like any other game where you have AI team mates.
Secondly, whilest it will be a nice part of the game, you will still be hunting alone 90% of the time.

Having Wolfpacks is not going to turn SHV into a Naval RTS or a Squad based naval sim.
I think some folks are reading too much in to it.