If they cant do AI wolfpacks...

GoldenRivet · 10-11-09, 11:32 PM

Would you be willing to settle for AI U-boats that can fire torpedoes, dive and surface, and respond to your contact reports?

even if they cannot model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc.

in other words, you send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance"

then AI boats eventually show up and attack.

Gezoes · 10-12-09, 01:28 AM

That happens to be exactly what I am expecting when thinking about wolfpacks ingame. Hope for more, but at least that.

rosentorf · 10-12-09, 01:48 AM

This would be adequately satisfactory...I think it won't matter too much if very complex wolfpack strategies are implemented or not. Most of the time anything complex like this ,in the end, will not really represent what happened/was possible in RL and rather be cumbersome and repetitive, unless it is flawlessly implemented. If you just "call in" u-boote that are in your area it is a simple yet effective system that matches the simulated world we hunt in. For a somewhat coordinated attack ther should be a radio message (if surfaced of course) of any friendly boats that are arriving in the vicinity of the targets so you know you can start attacking.

THE_MASK · 10-12-09, 02:39 AM

They had a german scout plane in the uboat expansion so a german pseudo scout sub shouldnt be too hard .

JU_88 · 10-12-09, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Would you be willing to settle for AI U-boats that can fire torpedoes, dive and surface, and respond to your contact reports?

even if they cannot model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc.

in other words, you send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance"

then AI boats eventually show up and attack.

IMHO that is all that is required of Wolfpacks anyway, I dont see what more people could really want?

looney · 10-12-09, 03:50 AM

Afaik subcommanders didn't talk to eachother during missions anyway.. They knew radio could be tracked by the enemy. Heck they did it themselves. Wolfpacks where organized by their commanders from germany.

So all we need is an AI wich dives and fires torps submerged and survaced. And if that is posssible MTB's will be able to fire torps also

For instance get orders to attack at say daybreak or sundown.. and then around that time you will see another explosion from an AI sub spawned nearby with same orders.

P.s. check out the actual effectiveness of wolfpacks
http://www.uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php
I always thought when a convoy was picked up by a wolfpack they would decimate the convoy. But mostly they destroyed only 1 or 2 ships, with some exceptions.

sergbuto · 10-12-09, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by looney

So all we need is an AI wich dives and fires torps submerged and survaced. And if that is posssible MTB's will be able to fire torps also

For instance get orders to attack at say daybreak or sundown.. and then around that time you will see another explosion from an AI sub spawned nearby with same orders.

Yes, the proper sub-specific AI is needed. Formally, even just a 3D model of a sub which only moves on the surface and fires its guns could be already called by AI submarine but that is by far not good enough. Specific sub-AI routines in the code are needed.

Currently, in SH3 and SH4, the situation you describe with the spawned AI sub can't even happen because there is no spawning formalism like that in the campaign mode, specific triggers do not work. Therefore, in addition to sub-specific AI, working triggers or spawning formalism like in SH2 are also needed.

karamazovnew · 10-12-09, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

Read this again please. What this means is that the career must have an aditional layer dedicated to submarines AND their influence on all other layers. If you remember, Ubi said that the player will be able to influence some parts of the war. Each sub's actions will matter more or less. Increased activity of uboats in an area will result in increased ASW presence and decreased convoy presence. And not only must the game keep track of everything those uboats do, it must also ensure that they act according to hystorical statistics. How many Uboats are built, where they are sent, how they interact whith BdU and you (radio chat) , how succesful they are, how many are sunk and so on and so forth. And I'm sure 90% of us will be bitching about why Prien is still alive in 1943

Giving them an aditional order to come to your position, or keep shadowing a convoy untill you get there is a bloody piece of cake compared to the big picture

. Ask yourself what you want. Do you want a Call of Duty type game where the entire army is there just to wait for you to get to the next waypoint? Or do you want a Falcon 4 campaign where you're just a very tiny piece of the puzzle and the war doesn't trully care about you? I'd go for the latter myself, but it requires a LOT of work from the devs. I hope they have time to implement this, but who knows.

looney · 10-12-09, 10:12 AM

How are hunter killergroups generated in SH3? Shouldn't uboats treated the same? If they come across an enemy throw the dice about outcome.. and continu.

GoldenRivet · 10-12-09, 10:26 AM

one problem that must be addressed for wolfpacks is proper intercepts.

we cant have AI u-boats making a bee line for the location of your contact report... otherwise they show up 2 or 3 days later about 100 miles behind the convoy!

they have to be able to intercept.

Col. Caldwell · 10-12-09, 10:57 AM

It'd be nice if you could request other subs to join in an attack. Having AI subs would be nice even if wolfpacks aren't implemented. It'd be great to finally know you're not the only sub out there.

FIREWALL · 10-12-09, 10:58 AM

Something has to be worked out to make SH5 a unique WWII subsim.

SH4 was not their finest hour.

10-12-09, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Would you be willing to settle for AI U-boats that can fire torpedoes, dive and surface, and respond to your contact reports?

even if they cannot model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc.

in other words, you send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance"

then AI boats eventually show up and attack.

yes, yes, yes, and yes!

i dont want a wolfpack game where they model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc, in my honest opinion it would be something new and wouldnt be what silent hunter series is about (control of 1 sub and 1 crew) so it doesnt deserve the #5 designation and should instead be called "silent hunter - wolfpacks".

i want sh5 with wolfpacks working as you described

send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance" (i would like to see grid coordinates and time to meet up with the other subs added here)

then AI boats eventually show up and attack (again at time and place as reported)

it would be nice if the player also had the option to pick the time and place to meet so if you choose wrong you miss your chance at large score.

i think there should be a way to get extra credit for aranging an attack so you get some credit for the wolfpack overall success or lack there of.

JU_88 · 10-12-09, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

one problem that must be addressed for wolfpacks is proper intercepts.

we cant have AI u-boats making a bee line for the location of your contact report... otherwise they show up 2 or 3 days later about 100 miles behind the convoy!

they have to be able to intercept.

No, they would have to spawn some place in your grid - much like aircraft, at least that would be the easiest option.

THE_MASK · 10-12-09, 04:47 PM

Asking to have wofpacks is easy . Getting it to work in game would be a game within a game , very hard and time consuming i would imagine . But this is how i would do it . As in uboat add on , instead of the scout plane there would be an invisible scout sub . The scout sub continuously scouts and in the same time compression as yourself . If on its random scouting of the entire grids it happens to detect a ship or convoy that is within a certain random distance from your sub then it will generate a location and ask for assistance . This would only happen in the historic time frame , months, years they had wofpacks . This is a start anyway and i would expect at least this in SH5 . See then you could go to the mission editor and script it or keep it random like you do with other vessels in the campaign . Its all about modding and being able to mod it .

10-11-09, 11:32 PM	#1
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	If they cant do AI wolfpacks... Would you be willing to settle for AI U-boats that can fire torpedoes, dive and surface, and respond to your contact reports? even if they cannot model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc. in other words, you send a contact report the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance" then AI boats eventually show up and attack. __________________

10-12-09, 01:28 AM	#2
Gezoes XO Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 435 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	That happens to be exactly what I am expecting when thinking about wolfpacks ingame. Hope for more, but at least that. __________________ If I wasn't a little mad, I'd go mad.

10-12-09, 10:26 AM	#10
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	one problem that must be addressed for wolfpacks is proper intercepts. we cant have AI u-boats making a bee line for the location of your contact report... otherwise they show up 2 or 3 days later about 100 miles behind the convoy! they have to be able to intercept. __________________

10-12-09, 10:57 AM	#11
Col. Caldwell Gunner Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 100 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	It'd be nice if you could request other subs to join in an attack. Having AI subs would be nice even if wolfpacks aren't implemented. It'd be great to finally know you're not the only sub out there. __________________ Craig Ferguson: "Shouldn't they be hunting Godzilla? A whale isn't going to destroy Tokyo; Godzilla is!"

10-12-09, 10:58 AM	#12
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	Something has to be worked out to make SH5 a unique WWII subsim. SH4 was not their finest hour. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

10-12-09, 01:48 AM	#3
rosentorf A-ganger Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 76 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 0	This would be adequately satisfactory...I think it won't matter too much if very complex wolfpack strategies are implemented or not. Most of the time anything complex like this ,in the end, will not really represent what happened/was possible in RL and rather be cumbersome and repetitive, unless it is flawlessly implemented. If you just "call in" u-boote that are in your area it is a simple yet effective system that matches the simulated world we hunt in. For a somewhat coordinated attack ther should be a radio message (if surfaced of course) of any friendly boats that are arriving in the vicinity of the targets so you know you can start attacking.

10-12-09, 02:39 AM	#4
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	They had a german scout plane in the uboat expansion so a german pseudo scout sub shouldnt be too hard .

10-12-09, 03:50 AM	#6
looney Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sneek, The Netherlands Posts: 635 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Afaik subcommanders didn't talk to eachother during missions anyway.. They knew radio could be tracked by the enemy. Heck they did it themselves. Wolfpacks where organized by their commanders from germany. So all we need is an AI wich dives and fires torps submerged and survaced. And if that is posssible MTB's will be able to fire torps also For instance get orders to attack at say daybreak or sundown.. and then around that time you will see another explosion from an AI sub spawned nearby with same orders. P.s. check out the actual effectiveness of wolfpacks http://www.uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php I always thought when a convoy was picked up by a wolfpack they would decimate the convoy. But mostly they destroyed only 1 or 2 ships, with some exceptions.

10-12-09, 10:12 AM	#9
looney Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sneek, The Netherlands Posts: 635 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	How are hunter killergroups generated in SH3? Shouldn't uboats treated the same? If they come across an enemy throw the dice about outcome.. and continu.

10-12-09, 04:47 PM	#15
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	Asking to have wofpacks is easy . Getting it to work in game would be a game within a game , very hard and time consuming i would imagine . But this is how i would do it . As in uboat add on , instead of the scout plane there would be an invisible scout sub . The scout sub continuously scouts and in the same time compression as yourself . If on its random scouting of the entire grids it happens to detect a ship or convoy that is within a certain random distance from your sub then it will generate a location and ask for assistance . This would only happen in the historic time frame , months, years they had wofpacks . This is a start anyway and i would expect at least this in SH5 . See then you could go to the mission editor and script it or keep it random like you do with other vessels in the campaign . Its all about modding and being able to mod it . Last edited by THE_MASK; 10-12-09 at 07:33 PM.