The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

My girlfriend works damn hard for a living and doesn't have healthcare.

If the place of employment does not offer healthcare I suggest she finds a place of employment that does provide healthcare. I never worked at a business that did not shoulder some of the healthcare costs. I would never sign on to a company that does not provide a healthcare program in some form. Even my brothers business this is basically 5 employees offers healthcare as part of the their compensations. They can opt out if they want and they get more take home money. They can use that money for their own plan or can throw caution to the wind.

So she works hard for a living and I need to pay for her healthcare? Interesting. I work hard also, I pay taxes on my healthcare each year as it is part of my gross salary.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

My girlfriend works damn hard for a living and doesn't have healthcare.

Her healthcare is not my responsibility. It's hers. I'm assuming she's a grown adult. Your own healthcare is your own responsibility. I simply don't want to pay for your health needs. I've got my own healthcare to pay for, my own mortgage to pay, my own investments to make, my kids college funds to build, home repairs to take care, utility bills to pay , etc. etc. etc. Pay for yourself and your own life mookie. You types need to stop thinking other people should be working to fund you and take care of your needs.

The British plan doesn't work, so health care reform doesn't work? That's like saying "I had a lemon of a Chrysler, so all cars suck."

Ask anyone in the world if they'd trade their plan for our system. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any takers.

What Obama and other idealist Democrats want in healthcare is totally unworkable. That's the problem. They think they can make something that inherently doesn't work into something that will make it work. Of course they need to take money and liberty from other Americans to do it. Seriously, ask how many Americans are willing to give up our health care system for the government model. Only people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and choose to pass their bills onto other taxpayers will think "free" "public healthcare" is a great idea. Those of us who pay for ourselves, like our current healthcare plans, and who may be targeted as the funding source for this new government bloated option aren't enthusiastic about it. Ultimately, Obamacare will not yield good results. Just like darn near every other government beaurocracy, it will be hugely expensive for the taxpayer, won't provide quality service, will be swamped and overcrowded, and will be filled with waste and abuse. I don't care if you want and get this option. Just leave me out of it. Totally.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Her healthcare is not my responsibility. It's hers. I'm assuming she's a grown adult. Your own healthcare is your own responsibility. I simply don't want to pay for your health needs.

If you've got insurance, you're already paying for others' healthcare.

I don't have kids and I don't like paying taxes to fund schools. My house hasn't burned down and I don't like paying taxes to fund the fire department. Right on man, I'm with you! Solidarity!

I've got my own healthcare to pay for,

No, you don't. Your insurance picks up most of the tab, and that's paid for by other people.

What Obama and other idealist Democrats want in healthcare is totally unworkable.

Except it works in every other modernized country. We rank dead last in healthcare, according to multiple studies.

Seriously, ask how many Americans are willing to give up our health care system for the government model.

The pollsters already did, and most Americans are in favor of it. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/he...cy/21poll.html

Only people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and choose to pass their bills onto other taxpayers will think "free healthcare" is a reality. Ultimately, Obamacare will not yield good results. I don't care if you get it. Just leave me out of it. Totally.

So you're fine paying more than anyone in the world for healthcare while millions don't have it. When someone says "hey we can pay less and cover more people if we make these changes" you throw a fit saying that people need to pay for their own self? Guess what? You're already paying for people who don't have healthcare. The only difference is that there are people that want those dollars spent more wisely.

You remind me of the story of Joe Conservative:

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn't think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republicans would still be sitting in the dark.)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home. He turns on a radio talk show, the host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day.) Joe agrees: "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I'm a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

It's really very simple. Under the proposed plan, if you work for a living, you pay for healthcare for those who don't.

I agree TDK, but that has been the norm since the great depression was over ...

The difference between now and then is that our leader, the leader of the pack, wants to increase the number of people that qualify for health care by a very large number.

A few in here and I hope even more than a few out there can see where the government in health care system is going to lead us.

Name anything Uncle Sam could take over and ask, "Would it be for the better or for the worse?

Telephone, energy, trash pick up, discount department stores, food distribution, airlines, transportation by land, sea or rail, etc.

They can't prove that they have ever done anything right, besides win WWII

One misconception is that this will only cost one trillion dollars over the next ten years ...

[SUBMAN1]

I'm surprised Congress is able to produce such charts. I question their capability to do anything let alone produce a flowchart.

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

Except it works in every other modernized country. We rank dead last in healthcare, according to multiple studies.

Mookie, dude, you will have to qualify that statement. Studies please. Unless you are saying the system in the US ranks last. You did not mean the care in and of itself is dead last did you?

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you've got insurance, you're already paying for others' healthcare.

Then we don't need a government option. Pay your premium and leave others alone. Sounds simple to me.

No, you don't. Your insurance picks up most of the tab, and that's paid for by other people.

I pay my premium. And I use services I need. Others who pay their premiums do the same. End result...people who do this are covered and are taking charge of their own life and not infringing on others.

Except it works in every other modernized country. We rank dead last in healthcare, according to multiple studies.

I don't buy it. Who's ranking it? People up in Canada are coming here to avoid delays in care. I have never seen a workable system in government care. Even so, I wouldn't trust our bloated beaurocracy to be able to deliver anything of substance and quality. Especially something as important as a health plan.

The pollsters already did, and most Americans are in favor of it. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/he...cy/21poll.html

I'm sure people in the bronx polled that way, yet,

http://spectator.org/blog/2009/03/20...an-8-in-10-ame

"8 in 10 Americans happy with health care coverage."

So you're fine paying more than anyone in the world for healthcare while millions don't have it. When someone says "hey we can pay less and cover more people if we make these changes" you throw a fit saying that people need to pay for their own self? Guess what? You're already paying for people who don't have healthcare. The only difference is that there are people that want those dollars spent more wisely.

You remind me of the story of Joe Conservative:

No, I'm paying my own health insurance premiums. Which are reasonable in my book. And I have choices in doctors, hospitals and services. And there is competition in services which help to contain my costs. These are things not given in the "public" option. There is also currently no tort reform which would limit the fivolous lawsuits which drive up the costs through bogus malpractice suits. Seriously mookie, my dollars are mine to spend. Not yours. And I'm happy with my arrangement. I don't get up and go to work everyday so you can take some of my liberty and property so you can have what you should be funding for yourself. I did mention to you I don't care if you personally get a public health option. But you pay for it. Since I don't use it, I shouldn't have to. You aren't chipping into my healthplan. Seriously, what do you types have against liberty, free choices, and personal responsibility.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Mookie, dude, you will have to qualify that statement. Studies please. Unless you are saying the system in the US ranks last. You did not mean the care in and of itself is dead last did you?

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Cont...can-Healt.aspx

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_ce.../en/index.html

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Mookie, dude, you will have to qualify that statement. Studies please. Unless you are saying the system in the US ranks last. You did not mean the care in and of itself is dead last did you?

I don't know if this was what mookie was talking about, but our system is indeed the worst among wealthy nations in terms of efficiency: http://www.reuters.com/article/healt...30711120070515

From the study: "The U.S. health care system ranks last compared with five other nations on measures of quality, access, efficiency, equity, and outcomes."

Basically, we spend over twice as much per person on health care, but get worse results. The only positive health statistic where the US leads the world is life expectancy after the age of 65 (thank you Medicare).

I've spent lots of time overseas in countries with state-provided healthcare. I've always been amused to see how my fellow Yanks, even my conservative friends, rave about how great those systems are when they actually have to use them.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Max2147

I've spent lots of time overseas in countries with state-provided healthcare. I've always been amused to see how my fellow Yanks, even my conservative friends, rave about how great those systems are when they actually have to use them.

I wonder how great they'd think our system was if they actually had to use ours. I wonder if you can eat crow through an IV drip.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I wonder how great they'd think our system was if they actually had to use ours. I wonder if you can eat crow through an IV drip.

They already do because of shortages and waits in theirs. Believe me, I know people abroad use our system when they can't get the access in theirs.

Originally Posted by Max2147

I've spent lots of time overseas in countries with state-provided healthcare. I've always been amused to see how my fellow Yanks, even my conservative friends, rave about how great those systems are when they actually have to use them.

I have seen some of these systems myself. And what you report is not my experience at all. I do have to question the studies you cite. I have never seen what you report regarding health care costs, and access or efficiency problems in U.S. care. My plans costs (premiums) are quite reasonable and I've never had any problems (with a family of 4) getting quick, efficient, or quality care. Plus I get the benefit of choices in providers, hospitals and planned coverage which you will not get in any government run health option. Also, the most important aspect is it works for me. Have your government run option if you wish, but you should pay for it yourself Max. I would be more willing to go for it if there was an opt out clause, which relieves you of funding it if you don't use it, and only those who participate pay for it. Actually that's the only way to make it fair and equitable. Other than that forget it. I'm like 80% of everybody else who like their current coverage.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

I do have to question the studies you cite. I have never seen what you report regarding health care costs, and access or efficiency problems in U.S. care.

I've never seen a study that showed anything else, and I come from a family of doctors. That article was actually more optimistic about our system than I'm used to hearing. The article said that we spend twice as much per capita on health for worse results. The numbers I usually hear are three to five times as much per capita, again for worse results.

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Plus I get the benefit of choices in providers, hospitals and planned coverage which you will not get in any government run health option. Also, the most important aspect is it works for me, and it's what I want for myself and my family.

You get that anywhere. Even in a European-style single-payer system you're free to buy a private plan. Very few people do so because the government system works well.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Cont...can-Healt.aspx

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_ce.../en/index.html

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

All nice finds but you are quailifying other countries experiences and naturally assuming the same results will follow in the US. We can not assume the system will react as other countries.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

My girlfriend works damn hard for a living and doesn't have healthcare.

How old is she? Is she in good health?

Its her right to not carry health care it is available if she wanted it.

Under the proposed plan you have no 'rights' you pay into the plan (if your working) regardless of age, health, nationality, etc.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You remind me of the story of Joe Conservative:

An interesting story, and some of it is true. On the other hand, it's very much like any canned diatribe, conservative or liberal.

So let's look at it a bit. I don't know much, and most of that was told to my by a friend's late wife, who was the country's leading authority on Sudden Infant Death syndrome. She was a confirmed liberal (was actually a member (one of three) of Utah's Communist Party back in her college days. She was sent to Britain as part of a study group, and came back a confirmed conservative, at least on this issue.

Part of the reason American healthcare costs are high is research. People like to blame the evil pharmaceutical companies, but it takes years of study and millions of dollars to develop a new drug, most of which are turned down by the Government. So the drug companies go out of business, and today there are only a few left. Another part is equipment, since every hospital in America has their own facilities, which cost money.

But the biggest piece of evidence in favor of the American system is the rich people of other countries who, when given the chance, spend their money to come here for treatment, since government-run healthcare means you get free help, but only after waiting in line for weeks, or sometimes even months.

I don't claim to know the answer, but it is my observation that anything administered by any government always means more waste, more bureaucrats and more trouble.