The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

It's really very simple. Under the proposed plan, if you work for a living, you pay for healthcare for those who don't.

My girlfriend works damn hard for a living and doesn't have healthcare.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

My girlfriend works damn hard for a living and doesn't have healthcare.

If the place of employment does not offer healthcare I suggest she finds a place of employment that does provide healthcare. I never worked at a business that did not shoulder some of the healthcare costs. I would never sign on to a company that does not provide a healthcare program in some form. Even my brothers business this is basically 5 employees offers healthcare as part of the their compensations. They can opt out if they want and they get more take home money. They can use that money for their own plan or can throw caution to the wind.

So she works hard for a living and I need to pay for her healthcare? Interesting. I work hard also, I pay taxes on my healthcare each year as it is part of my gross salary.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

My girlfriend works damn hard for a living and doesn't have healthcare.

Her healthcare is not my responsibility. It's hers. I'm assuming she's a grown adult. Your own healthcare is your own responsibility. I simply don't want to pay for your health needs. I've got my own healthcare to pay for, my own mortgage to pay, my own investments to make, my kids college funds to build, home repairs to take care, utility bills to pay , etc. etc. etc. Pay for yourself and your own life mookie. You types need to stop thinking other people should be working to fund you and take care of your needs.

The British plan doesn't work, so health care reform doesn't work? That's like saying "I had a lemon of a Chrysler, so all cars suck."

Ask anyone in the world if they'd trade their plan for our system. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any takers.

What Obama and other idealist Democrats want in healthcare is totally unworkable. That's the problem. They think they can make something that inherently doesn't work into something that will make it work. Of course they need to take money and liberty from other Americans to do it. Seriously, ask how many Americans are willing to give up our health care system for the government model. Only people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and choose to pass their bills onto other taxpayers will think "free" "public healthcare" is a great idea. Those of us who pay for ourselves, like our current healthcare plans, and who may be targeted as the funding source for this new government bloated option aren't enthusiastic about it. Ultimately, Obamacare will not yield good results. Just like darn near every other government beaurocracy, it will be hugely expensive for the taxpayer, won't provide quality service, will be swamped and overcrowded, and will be filled with waste and abuse. I don't care if you want and get this option. Just leave me out of it. Totally.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Her healthcare is not my responsibility. It's hers. I'm assuming she's a grown adult. Your own healthcare is your own responsibility. I simply don't want to pay for your health needs.

If you've got insurance, you're already paying for others' healthcare.

I don't have kids and I don't like paying taxes to fund schools. My house hasn't burned down and I don't like paying taxes to fund the fire department. Right on man, I'm with you! Solidarity!

I've got my own healthcare to pay for,

No, you don't. Your insurance picks up most of the tab, and that's paid for by other people.

What Obama and other idealist Democrats want in healthcare is totally unworkable.

Except it works in every other modernized country. We rank dead last in healthcare, according to multiple studies.

Seriously, ask how many Americans are willing to give up our health care system for the government model.

The pollsters already did, and most Americans are in favor of it. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/he...cy/21poll.html

Only people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and choose to pass their bills onto other taxpayers will think "free healthcare" is a reality. Ultimately, Obamacare will not yield good results. I don't care if you get it. Just leave me out of it. Totally.

So you're fine paying more than anyone in the world for healthcare while millions don't have it. When someone says "hey we can pay less and cover more people if we make these changes" you throw a fit saying that people need to pay for their own self? Guess what? You're already paying for people who don't have healthcare. The only difference is that there are people that want those dollars spent more wisely.

You remind me of the story of Joe Conservative:

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn't think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republicans would still be sitting in the dark.)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home. He turns on a radio talk show, the host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day.) Joe agrees: "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I'm a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you've got insurance, you're already paying for others' healthcare.

Then we don't need a government option. Pay your premium and leave others alone. Sounds simple to me.

No, you don't. Your insurance picks up most of the tab, and that's paid for by other people.

I pay my premium. And I use services I need. Others who pay their premiums do the same. End result...people who do this are covered and are taking charge of their own life and not infringing on others.

Except it works in every other modernized country. We rank dead last in healthcare, according to multiple studies.

I don't buy it. Who's ranking it? People up in Canada are coming here to avoid delays in care. I have never seen a workable system in government care. Even so, I wouldn't trust our bloated beaurocracy to be able to deliver anything of substance and quality. Especially something as important as a health plan.

The pollsters already did, and most Americans are in favor of it. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/he...cy/21poll.html

I'm sure people in the bronx polled that way, yet,

http://spectator.org/blog/2009/03/20...an-8-in-10-ame

"8 in 10 Americans happy with health care coverage."

So you're fine paying more than anyone in the world for healthcare while millions don't have it. When someone says "hey we can pay less and cover more people if we make these changes" you throw a fit saying that people need to pay for their own self? Guess what? You're already paying for people who don't have healthcare. The only difference is that there are people that want those dollars spent more wisely.

You remind me of the story of Joe Conservative:

No, I'm paying my own health insurance premiums. Which are reasonable in my book. And I have choices in doctors, hospitals and services. And there is competition in services which help to contain my costs. These are things not given in the "public" option. There is also currently no tort reform which would limit the fivolous lawsuits which drive up the costs through bogus malpractice suits. Seriously mookie, my dollars are mine to spend. Not yours. And I'm happy with my arrangement. I don't get up and go to work everyday so you can take some of my liberty and property so you can have what you should be funding for yourself. I did mention to you I don't care if you personally get a public health option. But you pay for it. Since I don't use it, I shouldn't have to. You aren't chipping into my healthplan. Seriously, what do you types have against liberty, free choices, and personal responsibility.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You remind me of the story of Joe Conservative:

An interesting story, and some of it is true. On the other hand, it's very much like any canned diatribe, conservative or liberal.

So let's look at it a bit. I don't know much, and most of that was told to my by a friend's late wife, who was the country's leading authority on Sudden Infant Death syndrome. She was a confirmed liberal (was actually a member (one of three) of Utah's Communist Party back in her college days. She was sent to Britain as part of a study group, and came back a confirmed conservative, at least on this issue.

Part of the reason American healthcare costs are high is research. People like to blame the evil pharmaceutical companies, but it takes years of study and millions of dollars to develop a new drug, most of which are turned down by the Government. So the drug companies go out of business, and today there are only a few left. Another part is equipment, since every hospital in America has their own facilities, which cost money.

But the biggest piece of evidence in favor of the American system is the rich people of other countries who, when given the chance, spend their money to come here for treatment, since government-run healthcare means you get free help, but only after waiting in line for weeks, or sometimes even months.

I don't claim to know the answer, but it is my observation that anything administered by any government always means more waste, more bureaucrats and more trouble.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

My girlfriend works damn hard for a living and doesn't have healthcare.

How old is she? Is she in good health?

Its her right to not carry health care it is available if she wanted it.

Under the proposed plan you have no 'rights' you pay into the plan (if your working) regardless of age, health, nationality, etc.

[AVGWarhawk]

Let start with why the US health system gets lower grades than the world. We shall start with the self indulgent individual:




Obesity. Just one of many self imposed health risks encounter in the US. This one of many that help account for longer stays and treatment, poor outcomes in recovery. Living healthy starts at home. If you think this bill will flip a switch and provide excellent healthcare and better outcomes you will be let down. The mentality of healthy living needs to be changed before any of that will happen. That will take years upon years to change that attitude. Not sure if these are taken into account on the surveys you offered up Mookie.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

How old is she? Is she in good health?

Its her right to not carry health care it is available if she wanted it.

Under the proposed plan you have no 'rights' you pay into the plan (if your working) regardless of age, health, nationality, etc.

I also have to ask....does she have a cell phone? What kind of car does she drive? Is she financing it? Cable TV plan? Satellite TV? You get what I'm driving at? If healthcare is so damn important to these people, they better not have any kind of luxuries before they fund a healthplan for themselves. Otherwise I don't want to hear the sob stories.

And Steamwake, your last statement is why I think those who choose private health insurance should be able to opt out completely from any government plan including funding it. The government option would force people to pay twice.

Originally Posted by Max2147

I've never seen a study that showed anything else, and I come from a family of doctors. That article was actually more optimistic about our system than I'm used to hearing. The article said that we spend twice as much per capita on health for worse results. The numbers I usually hear are three to five times as much per capita, again for worse results.

Just doesn't jibe from experience. My daughter's orthopedic surgeon and our family practice physician would both certainly give you an earful though about government run health and the problems with it.

You get that anywhere. Even in a European-style single-payer system you're free to buy a private plan. Very few people do so because the government system works well.

OK. Like I said, have your European style "single payer" healthcare. And you and others like you pay for it. Those who opt out shouldn't fund it as they are already paying health insurance premiums for themselves through private plans. That's the only way it wouldn't infringe on people who want choice in health care. You couldn't convince me otherwise. Your healthcare is your responsibility Max...not mine, not the government's, and not the taxpayer's.

[TDK1044]

This is all part of a cleverly constructed plan by the Democrats to create a Government dependent population. Once people know that they can always look to Government to assist them with just about everything, then it will be nearly impossible for the Republicans to get elected in the future.

Obama is really trying to create an 'assisted living' environment for the majority of our citizens. Look at Government ownership in the Banking industry and the Motor industry and you start to see where they are going.

If this is what most people in the US want then so be it, but don't then stand there with your flag on July 4th and proclaim how grateful you are to be free, because you're giving up that precious freedom and replacing it with bigger Government and security.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

If this is what most people in the US want then so be it, but don't then stand there with your flag on July 4th and proclaim how grateful you are to be free, because you're giving up that precious freedom and replacing it with bigger Government and security.

As opposed to our current system of tyranny of the corporation? No thanks. At least I can vote my government out if I don't like the way things are going.

[TDK1044]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

As opposed to our current system of tyranny of the corporation? No thanks. At least I can vote my government out if I don't like the way things are going.

You understand the Electoral College system and how it works, right?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

You understand the Electoral College system and how it works, right?

Very well, thank you. However legislation originates in Congress.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

As opposed to our current system of tyranny of the corporation? No thanks. At least I can vote my government out if I don't like the way things are going.

And just how is any corporation imposing tyranny upon you mookie? The thing is, you need not buy their products or services if you feel so oppressed by them. They can't make you patronize their goods or services(like government), nor can they levy taxes (such as health care taxes) to make people who work, give up some of their liberty or property for others (like government can do).

TDK1044 is correct. If government mandated health care is what you want, if you believe individual taxpayers should be paying for you and your health care, July 4th is not your holiday. You have no business celebrating Liberty when your goal is to infringe on the liberty of others. Washington, Jefferson, and Adams are not a part of your heritage. You may want to be reliant and fearful of government mookie, but some of us actually crave freedom and prefer personal responsibility, and the freedom of choices which come with it. My personal liberty and property is non-negotiable for me. People need to have a sense of responsibility for themselves and their own healthcare. I am merely responsible for me and my own family. And each taxpayer is responsible unto themselves accordingly.

Screw your government run healthcare if it infringes on my liberty. And as things look....it does.

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Centrist Dem Leader: Has Committee Votes To Block Health Bill

Nice to see some barriers to this stuff starting to form.

[Buddahaid]

But as I pointed out, you already do pay for the uninsured through increased costs and insurance premiums. You have the freedom to join the uninsured and become part of the problem, or be insured and pay for the uninsured. Hospitals do not have an option to turn away emergency patients. It's a catch 22 which why I want some form of universal wellness care, perhaps not this one, but something.

You have nothing without your health, and people with nothing become desperate and more criminal. How about a real world alternative suggestion that balances individual responsibility with social responsibility.

Buddahaid