In Border States, BATFE Asks: "May We See Your Guns?"

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

A warrant should not be a mandatory requirement for that kind of situation

what exactly do you think the situation is?

they knocked on the door... asked to see firearms - owner said no - they got pushy and threatened him with legal actions.

no - thats not how it works.

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

But in regards to good and upstanding citizens with no criminal background (as of then), I think the standard warrant laws we're using right now should be kept.

those "good and upstanding citizens" are specifically the people being targeted. - did you even read the article?

i stick to my guns here... if the cops knocked on my door without a warrant and i have done nothing wrong (or hell - even if i had) and they wanted to see anything in my house - out of sheer curiosity - i would tell them to take a piss - its that simple.

what the ATF is doing here is wrong. period. - sure they can come and knock and ask nicely to see my guns... of course i will say "no" - but because i answer "no" doesnt mean they should resort to bullying and threatening.

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

I have no trouble doing it. But then again, I'm only one person with nothing to hide.

i myself have absolutely nothing to hide, however i am far right - anti big government and these clowns would get no respect from me or cooperation if they cannot follow simple due process that they might learn in YEAR ONE of their law enforcement classes.

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

If you think asking for information about guns in this kind of manner is an authoritarian thing to do

I do think that. these ATF bums are supposedly professional law enforcement officers - and to threaten innocent individuals with some sort of completely made up action against the individual if they dont cooperate is BS, its bullying and it is completely authoritarian.

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

I'm lucky to be living under these kinds of laws (I could be a lot worse off right now), and so are you, quite frankly. As I result, I'm not going to complain. But if you want to that's your right. Just my two cents.

what are you talking about?

im not complaining about the laws - im complaining about the Law Enforcement Officers complete and utter disregard for due process.

i know it could be a lot worse... and my home FULL of firearms is the only thing which keeps it from being "a lot worse".

when the left half of this nation kills all religion and prys my gun from my cold dead hands - they can do whatever the "F" they want.

until then i intend to hold on very tightly to both

[ETR3(SS)]

I've got an idea for punishment for these "officers." Since they're attempting to infringe on the rights of American citizens, maybe we should take their rights away for a little while. Since they don't think the rules apply to them...

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

I'm lucky to be living under these kinds of laws (I could be a lot worse off right now), and so are you, quite frankly. As I result, I'm not going to complain. But if you want to that's your right. Just my two cents.

That somebody has it worse than you is no reason not to defend what you have SH lest you eventually find yourself in their shoes.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by August

That somebody has it worse than you is no reason not to defend what you have SH lest you eventually find yourself in their shoes.

Let him go. He is just stirring the pot.

-S

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

im not complaining about the laws - im complaining about the Law Enforcement Officers complete and utter disregard for due process.

i know it could be a lot worse... and my home FULL of firearms is the only thing which keeps it from being "a lot worse".

when the left half of this nation kills all religion and prys my gun from my cold dead hands - they can do whatever the "F" they want.

until then i intend to hold on very tightly to both

I consider myself to be on the left side, and I own three firearms for the very reason you state. I'm not anti-gun, but I never felt compelled to own one until after 9-11 when the Bill of Rights was being dismantled in the name of security. I think you see left and right as black and white a bit too much. I do believe in a strong military as the world, and man, still has a lot of growing up to do. I applaud your efforts to keep your weapons responsibly, but the problem arises from those who don't or can't, and like all other things, it takes only a few to mess it up for all. My uncle in Texas deals in firearms, but never will join the NRA whom he considers run by an idiot. My point being this is not about taking sides and I feel just as strongly as you about my rights and privacy.

Buddahaid

I might add that before the firearms I collected about fifteen airguns of various types and ages. The oldest being a Daisy MD25 from about 1920.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Let him go. He is just stirring the pot.

-S

...

[Platapus]

Few expressions will invoke stronger emotional responses from Americans than the expression:

If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear from the Government.

It is just part of the American culture. We, as a people, tend to distrust our government. This is why the various constitutions are written from a point of prohibiting action (Congress/State will not...) as opposed to permitting action (Congress/State can...). When the government is permitted to take action, it will be carefully defined as to provide limits and restrictions on the part of the government.

Constitutions of other nations do not always follow the American style.

[Onkel Neal]

Source: NRA
Credibility: Low

[ETR3(SS)]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Source: NRA
Credibility: Low

I have to agree with Neal there. I own eight or so guns. I'm not a member of the NRA. And I am neither left nor right. The NRA has an agenda just like PETA has their agenda. Not saying the NRA's is bad, just have to take what they say with a little skepticism. Now if it is credible, see my earlier post. If not...meh

[Max2147]

The key word here is "asks." There's nothing wrong with ATF asking to see people's guns, even if they don't have a warrant.

Now, if they demand to see the guns and threaten the owner with arrest if they fail to comply, then there's a violation of rights if they don't have a warrant. But I don't see that in this case. Reading that letter, I get the impression that the gun owner is perfectly free to give the answer that GoldenRivet gave in Reply #3.

The NRA letter mentions one case of an overzealous agent apparently getting a bit hot under the collar, but I don't think one case should be seen as a trend.

It's pretty clear what the ATF is trying to do here - catch smugglers who are illegally smuggling weapons into Mexico. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Max2147

The key word here is "asks." There's nothing wrong with ATF asking to see people's guns, even if they don't have a warrant.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Max2147

Now, if they demand to see the guns and threaten the owner with arrest if they fail to comply, then there's a violation of rights if they don't have a warrant.

This is what the article is saying allegedly happened.

Originally Posted by Max2147

But I don't see that in this case.

we may never find out the truth, however reading the article it appears that at least one individual was threatened with action by an officer.

Originally Posted by Max2147

The NRA letter mentions one case of an overzealous agent apparently getting a bit hot under the collar, but I don't think one case should be seen as a trend.

again I agree, however - the minute the agent puts his badge on in the morning before work - he becomes a professional and a representative of the United States Government's bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. regardless of whether or not it is a one time offense or a trend - it is reckless, irresponsible, and unprofessional.

Originally Posted by Max2147

It's pretty clear what the ATF is trying to do here - catch smugglers who are illegally smuggling weapons into Mexico. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Agreed as well... i don't think anyone here thinks it is wrong to try to catch wrong doers - but there is a process used for catching the bad guys - it should be strictly adhered to.

if you wish to cooperate with the ATF on this issue - good for you.

if you do NOT wish to cooperate with the ATF thats fine too.

but you shouldn't be strong armed over the latter decision.

[SteamWake]

What defines a 'border state' and why would they be singled out?

[Buddahaid]

They're the states bordering on Mexico which is having major problems with drug related violence to the tune of 5,000 murders a year, or some such number. Many of the guns are smuggled into Mexico by nice upstanding citizens of the USA. Efforts are underway to curtail the illegal gun trade which is what this threads first post is describing. This is really an ugly, ugly mess that seems to be getting worse.

Buddahaid

[Aramike]

I have no trouble doing it. But then again, I'm only one person with nothing to hide.

That is an absolute surrendering of freedom and people should be afraid if the government starts using "its no problem if you've got nothing to hide".

Where does it stop, in your mind? Should the government be able to randomly inspect every single home at any time for any reason? Should that be okay with people because they've got nothing to hide?

[Stealhead]

You know if you think about it all a law enforcement officer needs in proable cause and a dishonest one could just come up with something.

I have a very good friend(lets call him Mr.X) who lives in Baltimore he had a not so good day once. While stopped at a carwash a man came walking over from the rear of Mr.X truck(S-10). Mr.X happened to be standing beside his open drivers side door when he noticed that the man was bent over and had a knife in his hand. Seeing that this guy was clearly about to at the least attempt to rob him Mr.X reached in back of the bench seat and pulled out and aimed his .22 caliber semi-auto(i dont know the model or make)rifle at the the mans neck at about the same point the man pressed the knife close to Mr.X stomach.

Unknown to the attacker the .22 was not loaded. Mr.X had been out zeroing the scope before stopping at the carwash and of course properly cleared the weapon and placed the magazines inside his glovebox along with the bullets.(Mexican Stand Off!!!) Clearly Mr.X had to bluff the knife man and hope that he did not see that the weapon had no magazine.

Mr.X told the knife man to step away and place his knife on the ground or be shot.(he was already leaning away at bit but still held the knife in a therating manner) Knife man claimed the gun was not loaded Mr.X said it was and advised knife man that finding out if it was or not was not a viable option if knife man desired to live.(note orginal language of encounter has been omitted)Anyway after a few tense moments Mr.X got the man to place his knife on the ground after this knifeless man ran away.

So Mr.X placed his .22 rifle back behind the bench seat. He did not call the cops figuring that they knife man learned that his life style might not be so wise after all. What Mr.X did not know at the time was that a woman near by saw this Mexican Standoff and belived Mr.X to be the robber not the victim.a few minutes later two BPD walked over to Mr.X asking him if he had seen anything "strange" lately Mr.X said "no just that a man pulled a knife on me and I stopped him and he ran away".(realizing that this was why they where there.)

The BPD advised that Mr.X fit the description of a reported armed robber (the dip**** woman calling in) and they did the "you are not under arrest but we will restarin you for our safety"(in case you dont know if you refuse you WILL be arrested) and went through his truck. They NEVER asked if there was anything inside his truck before searching it. Of course they found the .22 cal rifle,magazines, and bullets resulting in the Sgt. saying "oh what do we have here?" Sgt.cop kept searching Mr.X truck while lower ranking cop talked to Mr.X(he belived Mr.X to be the victim of a crime not the perp) Good cop went over and talked to Sgt.cop and came back to Mr.X and advised him that he had told Sgt. that he belived Mr.X was not the perp and that the only thing they could do is get him on the imporperly stored firearm. Sgt.Cop did not like this and came over to Mr.X and said "You must be a ****ing idiot." Mr.X(he is a little crazy and never backs down form a fight) said "Why am I stupid that guy pulled a knife on me I have the right to defend myself and I did."

Sgt. said "You are lying and you robbed someone and now you are going to jail." Mr.X again told the entire story and the reason he had the gun inside his truck in the first place and admitted that he should not have stored it that way but also that had he not have sgt. would be here for the murder of Mr.X. At this point though good cop and several civilans who had seen what happened where presentsgt.dick pulled Mr.X up by the collar and said "I will break your ****ing neck." Mr.X said "Do it then in front of all these people."Anyway they locked Mr.X up even though good cop did not think he should have been sgt. made it so.

Anyway Mr.X got saved by good cop who had written a report about the things sgt.dick had done to Mr.X and the judge ruled that Mr.X in fact did nothing wrong beyond the improperly stored firearm. But damn it could have been much worse for Mr.X.

Personaly I dont commit crimes but I do not trust law enforcement their goal is to arrest anyone and everyone just keep that in mind.It is their word aginst yours and unless you get very lucky like Mr.X did you are screwed.I am not saying all cops are bad you just have no way of knowing when you are dealing with one who has integrity or lacks it.

You guys fail to think in a guerrilla warfare fasion you dont want all your guns at your house you want a weapons cashe in a place they wont find it think about it.You guys fear the goverment someday do this or that you wont last long with all your guns and no fighters with you that is why you need the cashe in a place you dont own. Just for that I bet someone is gonna be coming to my house now. Bring it I will get Sun Zu on their ass.

By the way I do own firearms(legaly) and have never nor will I ever be a member of the NRA.The same can be said for every person that I know who owns firearms including MR.X.If you want be 100% free to own any weapon you want move to Somalia or a simular central goverment lacking nation of course then you wont last long as the milita in this type of place will simplty kill you but you will get to shoot that fully auto M-16 and maybe kill one or two of them before they kill you.

And with all the civil wars and drugs in Central and South America there ahs got to be a ****load of illegal stockpiled weapons down there dude the crimnals there well outgun the cops I saw a documentary on the slums of Rio de Janerio these guys had M-16 CAR-15 AK-47s andeven one of them had a CAR-15 with an M203 the cops just had M-16 CAR-15 AR-70 and a single MG21 but nothing like an M203 and they mainly had just pistols while every single slum gang member had an automatic weapon. I am going to say it is a very safe bet that the overwhelming majority of the guns being used in Mexico are from south of thier border not north of it.