Equal justice for all is out the window...

August · 05-01-09, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

It's actually kind of cute to see you all get in such a tizzy about things. It really is. All the hand wringing and proclamations of doom.

Who are you talking to, and is this type of comment really necessary?

Quote:

The law doesn't make it any more of a crime to mug a black person, a gay person or a muslim than it does to rob a white male. What it does do is make it more of a crime to mug a black person, a gay person or a muslim BECAUSE they're black, gay or muslim. The mens rea in that case is different and therefore deserves a different sentancing.

Semantics. The main crime is the murder or the mugging etc. That's what the criminal should be tried for. Hate crime legislation is just a feel good sideshow that has enormous potential for abuse.

antikristuseke · 05-01-09, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Semantics. The main crime is the murder or the mugging etc. That's what the criminal should be tried for. Hate crime legislation is just a feel good sideshow that has enormous potential for abuse.

I second this.

mookiemookie · 05-01-09, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Semantics. The main crime is the murder or the mugging etc. That's what the criminal should be tried for. Hate crime legislation is just a feel good sideshow that has enormous potential for abuse.

A feel good sideshow? Hate crimes go further than an attack on a single victim. They're an attack on a community, be it racial or religious, or what have you and do damage to the overall community as a whole. Look at Jasper, TX.

Hate crimes are by definition a worse form of crime than the underlying actus reus and should be treated as such.

August · 05-01-09, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

A feel good sideshow? Hate crimes go further than an attack on a single victim. They're an attack on a community, be it racial or religious, or what have you and do damage to the overall community as a whole. Look at Jasper, TX.

Hate crimes are by definition a worse form of crime than the underlying actus reus and should be treated as such.

Hate is worse than murder? Sorry, I disagree.

mookiemookie · 05-01-09, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Hate is worse than murder? Sorry, I disagree.

Not at all what I said. A murder motivated by hatred towards a humanistic trait is worse than a murder at random.

August · 05-01-09, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Not at all what I said. A murder motivated by hatred towards a humanistic trait is worse than a murder at random.

I still disagree. It is the murder itself that is significant, not the reason(S) for committing it. I might be willing to consider mitigating circumstances like in the assisted suicide example you posted as meriting a lesser punishment but guilty of murder is guilty of murder and nothing should be allowed to cloud that.

Sailor Steve · 05-01-09, 05:05 PM

I agree - murder is murder. But it doesn't sound like they're talking about murder. The word I saw was "attack". Murder committed during a robbery is still murder, as is murdering someone because they are a fill-in-the-blank. But there is a difference in holding up someone on the street and beating a person half to death because you don't like his fill-in-the-blank.

I'm not sure what I think of this at the moment, but attacks on people done simply because they are your "wrong" kind of people may well be worth special punishment.

August · 05-01-09, 05:47 PM

Another thing about this that bugs me is the shear subjectivity of it. Any crime can be cast as a hate crime if the perpetrators and victims happen to be from different races, religions, cultures, creeds, genders or any other, as mookie puts it, "humanistic" difference.

I just hate this piling on of charges. A crime like assault or murder for some reason is no longer worthy of prosecution on it's own, it must be buttressed by an entire host of secondary charges.

There's the crime itself, the conspiracy to commit the crime, the conspiracy to commit conspiracy, the location of the crime, who the victim was, where the perp came from and now the motive itself becomes a crime as well?

It's just fodder for lawyers. It does nothing to deter crime or provide justice for its victims.

Max2147 · 05-01-09, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Hate is worse than murder? Sorry, I disagree.

Hate + Murder is worse than either hate or murder.

05-01-09, 05:05 PM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I agree - murder is murder. But it doesn't sound like they're talking about murder. The word I saw was "attack". Murder committed during a robbery is still murder, as is murdering someone because they are a fill-in-the-blank. But there is a difference in holding up someone on the street and beating a person half to death because you don't like his fill-in-the-blank. I'm not sure what I think of this at the moment, but attacks on people done simply because they are your "wrong" kind of people may well be worth special punishment. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

05-01-09, 05:47 PM	#8
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,227 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Another thing about this that bugs me is the shear subjectivity of it. Any crime can be cast as a hate crime if the perpetrators and victims happen to be from different races, religions, cultures, creeds, genders or any other, as mookie puts it, "humanistic" difference. I just hate this piling on of charges. A crime like assault or murder for some reason is no longer worthy of prosecution on it's own, it must be buttressed by an entire host of secondary charges. There's the crime itself, the conspiracy to commit the crime, the conspiracy to commit conspiracy, the location of the crime, who the victim was, where the perp came from and now the motive itself becomes a crime as well? It's just fodder for lawyers. It does nothing to deter crime or provide justice for its victims. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.