Equal justice for all is out the window...

[mookiemookie]

It's actually kind of cute to see you all get in such a tizzy about things. It really is. All the hand wringing and proclamations of doom.

To understand what hate crimes legislation is about, you first have to understand the idea of mens rea, or "guilty mind". Mens rea considers the mindset of the person commiting the actus reus, or the actual act. Our legal system has done this forever, so quit whining about the downfall of American society.

Take a concrete example. Situation 1: A husband suffocates his wife with a pillow while she slept in order to collect insurance money. Situation 2: A husband suffocates his wife with a pillow while she slept out of mercy to end her life because she was dying of cancer. Which one is more guilty? Which one deserves the harsher sentance?

Which is worse? A tagger's name spraypainted on a bus stop or swastikas on a synagogue wall? Which one does more to disrupt society as a whole?

The law doesn't make it any more of a crime to mug a black person, a gay person or a muslim than it does to rob a white male. What it does do is make it more of a crime to mug a black person, a gay person or a muslim BECAUSE they're black, gay or muslim. The mens rea in that case is different and therefore deserves a different sentancing.

Look at the FBI's hate crime statistics for 07: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_05.htm

You'll see "anti-white" listed as a hate crime category. Shocking, right? It's because hate crime legislation is designed to give everyone equal protection under the law, as everyone has a race, creed, color, etc. You're all hung up on the idea that this kind of law establishes protected classes. It doesn't. It's about taking into account MOTIVES, not protecting classes.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

It's actually kind of cute to see you all get in such a tizzy about things. It really is. All the hand wringing and proclamations of doom.

Who are you talking to, and is this type of comment really necessary?

The law doesn't make it any more of a crime to mug a black person, a gay person or a muslim than it does to rob a white male. What it does do is make it more of a crime to mug a black person, a gay person or a muslim BECAUSE they're black, gay or muslim. The mens rea in that case is different and therefore deserves a different sentancing.

Semantics. The main crime is the murder or the mugging etc. That's what the criminal should be tried for. Hate crime legislation is just a feel good sideshow that has enormous potential for abuse.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by August

Semantics. The main crime is the murder or the mugging etc. That's what the criminal should be tried for. Hate crime legislation is just a feel good sideshow that has enormous potential for abuse.

I second this.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

Semantics. The main crime is the murder or the mugging etc. That's what the criminal should be tried for. Hate crime legislation is just a feel good sideshow that has enormous potential for abuse.

A feel good sideshow? Hate crimes go further than an attack on a single victim. They're an attack on a community, be it racial or religious, or what have you and do damage to the overall community as a whole. Look at Jasper, TX.

Hate crimes are by definition a worse form of crime than the underlying actus reus and should be treated as such.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

A feel good sideshow? Hate crimes go further than an attack on a single victim. They're an attack on a community, be it racial or religious, or what have you and do damage to the overall community as a whole. Look at Jasper, TX.

Hate crimes are by definition a worse form of crime than the underlying actus reus and should be treated as such.

Hate is worse than murder? Sorry, I disagree.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

Hate is worse than murder? Sorry, I disagree.

Not at all what I said. A murder motivated by hatred towards a humanistic trait is worse than a murder at random.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Not at all what I said. A murder motivated by hatred towards a humanistic trait is worse than a murder at random.

I still disagree. It is the murder itself that is significant, not the reason(S) for committing it. I might be willing to consider mitigating circumstances like in the assisted suicide example you posted as meriting a lesser punishment but guilty of murder is guilty of murder and nothing should be allowed to cloud that.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree - murder is murder. But it doesn't sound like they're talking about murder. The word I saw was "attack". Murder committed during a robbery is still murder, as is murdering someone because they are a fill-in-the-blank. But there is a difference in holding up someone on the street and beating a person half to death because you don't like his fill-in-the-blank.

I'm not sure what I think of this at the moment, but attacks on people done simply because they are your "wrong" kind of people may well be worth special punishment.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by August

Hate is worse than murder? Sorry, I disagree.

Hate + Murder is worse than either hate or murder.