Teh Nazis!

Haha, true.

But unluckily not really the point I am trying to make. Sorry if that did not come across well enough.

Hm, how to say this. Look, what the world thinks of Germany and it's contributions after WW2 is one thing, we had this discussion many times and will have in the future, too.

The problem I am talking about is the following...how do you lead a young generation of germans into a way that they can a) be proud of their country and b) do not have to refer to the Nazis to find any sort of praise.

As long as the rest of the world does not stop glorifying german achievements in the name of the Nazis whilst at the same time making the life of contempory and future germans harder.

The account is something like this:

1. Nazis, most evil ppl on the planet, but also highly praised.

2. Modern young Germans, still the most evil ppl on the planet, going by their selective perception of the masses on the internet mostly, but without the praise the Nazis get. Basicly "you suck, but the Wehrmacht rules". This in turn makes a lot of young germans go "ok, so we suck? no, you suck more, pi** of, (insert provocateur of your choice)". Thanks to the internet they grow up with such a perception of themselves and the world alike.

Notice the problem, especially in times of crisis like this?

[TDK1044]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Haha, true.

But unluckily not really the point I am trying to make. Sorry if that did not come across well enough.

Hm, how to say this. Look, what the world thinks of Germany and it's contributions after WW2 is one thing, we had this discussion many times and will have in the future, too.

The problem I am talking about is the following...how do you lead a young generation of germans into a way that they can a) be proud of their country and b) do not have to refer to the Nazis to find any sort of praise.

As long as the rest of the world does not stop glorifying german achievements in the name of the Nazis whilst at the same time making the life of contempory and future germans harder.

The account is something like this:

1. Nazis, most evil ppl on the planet, but also highly praised.

2. Modern young Germans, still the most evil ppl on the planet, going by their selective perception of the masses on the internet mostly, but without the praise the Nazis get. Basicly "you suck, but the Wehrmacht rules". This in turn makes a lot of young germans go "ok, so we suck? no, you suck more, pi** of, (insert provocateur of your choice)". Thanks to the internet they grow up with such a perception of themselves and the world alike.

Notice the problem, especially in times of crisis like this?

I think they need to be taught the difference between perception and reality, Bewolf...especially as it relates to the internet. I also think that they need to be taught to accentuate the positive about being a modern, young German.

Here's a strange analogy for you. Take a 17 year old German computer hacker who uses his talent to create a nasty, malicious Trojan, with which he manages to infect millions of computers accross the world and causes great distress to millions of people.

To many people, he's a modern day Nazi seeking to dominate and inflict pain any way he can.

Now take the same 17 year old German, and have him send a Trojan that installs iteslf on millions of windows based computers all over the world and rewrites some Microsoft code and makes people's computers run 50 percent more efficiently.

He's a hero. Nazis? What Nazis? Never heard of them.

In principle very true. The problem is, by todays standarts most children have ready access to the internet, youtube beeing on top of their usage. Lots have their first real contact with the nazi topics out of school within the internet, having a direct impact on their own perception of this era and all that comes with it today. I mean, I got the full blow of "you nazi!" often enough myself, but I only got into the internet "after" I already developed my own opinions about this topic, as is the case with most folks above the age of 30 here. That is not the case with the younger generation anymore, who are thrown into the barrel and often enough lack the wisdom to cope with this topic accordingly.

That goes so far as that these younger folks accuse their own government and other nations of lying about their past and using the Holocaust as an excuse to stay in control (this goes hand in hand with the impression of most germans of their government beeing utterly ineffective and too full of compromises, bad in a society that loves precision and the slogan "if you do something, do it 100% or not at all".) The support of democracy in general has already suffered by that within these age groups. Cry Wolf often enough and nobody will listen to it anymore, or worse, may try to repeat it.

And unless you make use of censorship and siteblocking on a big scale, that won't change anytime soon.

As I do not have any influence on the governments policy towards school and education, what would you guys suggest doing if you were to go active against this trend?

[Platapus]

The Frau came to this country in the late 1980's. When she was in school in Germany during the 1960's, WWII was not taught in her history classes. German history stopped after WWI. Current history was picked up in the 1950s but that was taught in her civics classes.

There was no denial or covering up of the Nazi history, it just was not discussed. In many ways this mimics the American school systems concerning the treatment of Indian Tribes in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is kinda glossed over (at least it was in the 60's when I was a punk).

So I imagine every country/culture has its history they are not proud of, and often this history is not taught in schools. As a history nut, I disagree with this concept. To me history is history -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Knowing the darker aspects of American history does not make me like America less. America has done a lot of bad things, a lot of good things, and a lot of mediocre things. That's all part of our history. To conceal any part is doing a disservice to our children.

To me, it is important to recognize that my country is imperfect. Knowing this, helps me understand the imperfections of other countries/cultures.

There are many who would disagree with me on this.

Originally Posted by Platapus

The Frau came to this country in the late 1980's. When she was in school in Germany during the 1960's, WWII was not taught in her history classes. German history stopped after WWI. Current history was picked up in the 1950s but that was taught in her civics classes.

There was no denial or covering up of the Nazi history, it just was not discussed. In many ways this mimics the American school systems concerning the treatment of Indian Tribes in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is kinda glossed over (at least it was in the 60's when I was a punk).

So I imagine every country/culture has its history they are not proud of, and often this history is not taught in schools. As a history nut, I disagree with this concept. To me history is history -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Knowing the darker aspects of American history does not make me like America less. America has done a lot of bad things, a lot of good things, and a lot of mediocre things. That's all part of our history. To conceal any part is doing a disservice to our children.

To me, it is important to recognize that my country is imperfect. Knowing this, helps me understand the imperfections of other countries/cultures.

There are many who would disagree with me on this.

In principle, agreed. But I can only talk for myself here, but when I was in school from 1986 to 1997, this Nazis were ontop in some class nearly every single year, be it history, german or politics class. To a degree it overshadowed everything else.

Then again this was gradually implemented only after the 68 revolts.

[August]

I think Germany's problem is that the nazi era is still too recent. Although it seems like a long time to us in the modern age, 64 years is nothing when it comes to making people stop thinking of such earth shaking events as the holocaust and WW2. Heck we even still have a living memory of those times.

For example it's taken 700 years for people to stop thinking of Italians as Romans and even now there are those who will attempt to draw such comparisons when it suits them.

I expect it will be the same unless Germany becomes better known for something else. But I think if your young people decide to, as you put it, "live up to the reputation" it will only serve to make the impression even more long lasting.

[CaptHawkeye]

Nobody is asking Germany to carry it's past with it forever. What i'm saying is that you shouldn't feel bad for it either.

[CaptHawkeye]

Yeah, i'd hate to break it to you folks, but Germany as a country was the whole reason the Nazis came to power in the first place. They not only set them in power but openly aided the Holocaust and other atrocities. However, even the German people could admit they were wrong.

The statement, "not all Germans were nazis" is totally useless. It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either. Even when it was within their means to do so. And don't act like the Nazis tricked Germany either, Hitler laid out everything he intended to do step-by-step in Mein Kampf. The ultimate reality is Germany wanted to one-up the allies for the embarrasment of World War 1 and they were fully willing to embrace a violently nationalist and expansionist regime that never once hid its genocidal intentions.

Do you get what i'm saying here? I'm saying Germany let the Nazis take over just because of a 20 year old grudge.

So I don't understand what compels people to claim the Nazis and Germans were so separate from one another. Even when the German people themselves admitted they were horribly wrong. What are you defending here? People who say "we didn't know" are universally looked down upon in the country too. German citizens who claim that the crimes of the holocaust were unknown are tatamount to holocaust denial. What about the White Rose movement, Rossenstrasse protests, and Oskar Schindler? Fear of Nazi reprisal didn't stop them. Traudl Junge actually addmitted on her death bed that she spent her entire life making excuses for herself and Germany over what the Nazis did.

The Wehrmacht is far from blameless in war crimes. They may have contributed more to the death of western slavic peoples than any other cause in history. Even guys like Guderian could admit the Wehrmacht played the Nazi game.

So again, what are you defending?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either.

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

[FIREWALL]

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

Yeah, I have to prove the Nazis took power in the first place and had wide scale public support.

Public support was there, maybe not at a constant high and certainly not to the degree foreign folks often make it out to be, but in general it was. Enough to not threaten Nazi rule anyways.

[Frame57]

If I could have the chance to sit down and have a beer with Karl Donitz, I would...

[Aramike]

I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, a city built on its German heritage, and very proud of it.

Truth be told, even in my travels abroad I rarely encountered any hostility against Germans due to Nazism. I think this is a case of considering the source - only a moron would consider modern day Germany to be derivative at all from Nazi Germany.

You should consider where you're encountering these idiots who make the comparison. For instance, if its online in a forum such as this consider that it may just be someone trying to get under your skin. My advice to you is to not let them be effective at that.