Teh Nazis!
 

Kay, folks, old topics, new questions.

Nearly 65 years have passed since world war 2 came to an end. A lot has changed since then. Society in western worlds alltogether have changed dramatically. Communism broke down, Germany and all of Europe got reunited, NATOs borders expanded to the east and the EU is growing to be a highly critizised, but economically potent power. The new contestants of the world are the US, the EU, China and India, it looks like the whole far east will grow to be a whole new center of civilisation, similiar to former times. East vs. West will grow to whole new dimensions.

But the more the world changes, and the more we move away from these dark times, the more ppl talk about the Nazis. Not just in Germany, where this has been an old topic, but abroad as well. Wherever you look, when having discussions, Nazis are never that far away. be it documnetaries running on TV 24/7, highlighting every single little aspect of the Nazis, in discussions and debates, no matter the topic, you bet someone sooner or later pulls the Nazi club. Tourists, especially US and british tourists coming here are looking for remants of WW2, they are not interested in the more then 2000 years of history that happend on these lands or the cultural offerings today at all.

The german army especially appears to be highly fascinating to ppl all around. German technology, german profession, all more or less contributed to the Nazis, despite their basics having been developed much sooner. Outside Germany the Waffen SS is highly praised on a regular basis.

The inability or lack of differentation between Nazis and the Germans in general have a couple very negative effects. I am talking about my own country here and it's youth.
After decades of school indoctrination nazis=germans=bad, coupled with the fact that even today, after all these years of apologies, reperations and humility there are still a lot of countries using the Nazi comparisons to subdue german national interests within the EU and abroad on both a political and a private level, ppl here got tired of the same blames all around. Whenever I talk to folks under 30, and even more so under 20 (I am often contacting people commenting on youtube, just to find out what made them post their entries), you seriously notice they "want" to be proud of their country, but feel they can't be, despite high improvements in this regard over the last couple years. The last highpoint of Germany in their eyes, and proven by all those TV shows and comments on youtube videos, was the reign of the Nazis. And no matter what, that curse will still follow them, so why not just live up to the reputation, as it obviously does not go away anyways? Especially eastern Europe makes sure to remind us of that since the wall came down, coming late to the european party having to catch up on what they missed the last 50 years.

Since the financial crisis hit bottom here, there once again is a feeling of world betrayal, conspiracies to bring down the german economy by, guess, the wallstreet and all the prejudices concerning the involvement of jews in this. This is not a mass phenomenon, but there certainly is a raise in such perceptions in certain circles of society.

Al in all I consider this a problem. A big one. I love this country, I got to live with the responsebility burdened upon the following generations by that special past, but seriously, it is hard to uphold principles when everybody makes the connection that germans and Nazis are all the same.

How to deal with such a development?

Apart from skin heads here in NZ we have Maori gangs who idolize the nazis the 'Mighty Mongrel Mob' who greet each other with the Sieg Heil salute and wear the swastika emblems. I just don't get it why they get into the nazi way i suppose cause the nazis were the bad guys so its fits them well. To me though when ever i see these guys doing their thing its like WTH wrong skin color bro! :haha:


Good timing, ANZAC day 25th April :salute:

Yes...it's amazing how centuries of history gets overshadowed by one dramatic decade. I don't know if I have good answer for you. I've often felt that if the Nazis had never existed we probably would have had to invent them. They have become the ultimate cultural shortcut for the bad guy. Our favorite dispersion to cast upon any figure we don't like from an overbearing boss to unfavored politician. Somehow substitutes like Caesar or Genghis Khan don't quite cut it.

True, and I am pretty sure in a millenium the Nazis will have left the same mark on western civilisation as did the mongol invasions into Europe even hundrets of years later.

Nevertheless, the obsession with the Nazis from so many sides at the same time is going over the top. It's not healthy anymore. If there ever was a meaningful purpose for the word "evil", it most perfectly suits the Nazis.

And the worst part is, they are directly connected to what people all over the world obviously think of the Werhmacht and their equipment. Peeking into international boards and discussions of the second world war upon the less educated people, one could think Germany of that time period was some kind of european Sparta, tough, cruel but efficient. One wonders if there will be another "300" like movie if just enough time passes. And this is all contributed to the Nazis.

This is what is so worrysome about this development. As younger folks especially get fascinated with such a view on german history.

So, with other words, the germans of today have to deal with the blame and shame, less by now from western europe and the US, the more from eastern europe (it has to be stated, they had to suffer so much more then westernn europe, so it is understandable to a degree), while the Nazis themselves from that time get more and more credit, even if only through the achievements of the german army and science.

That this leads to pretty much warped preceptions of where to aim political ambitions, especially with the younger generations that feel less and less responsible for what happend, should be obvious.

Now that sounds kinda surreal O.o

But it's odd anyways. Look at Poland, look at Russia, countries that had to endure the most in the german onslught. Nevertheless these countries sport some of the most numerous and active neo nazi scenes today.
Why on earth? What is it with the Nazis and fashism that makes it so successfull with ppl that even after the Holocaust and a "world" war it holds so much credit? Even the US has copied many elements of this era, not just military strategies, tactics and procedures, but a really unhealthy "hero" culture just like in the third Reich (firefighters, military, police, etc.). This whole "work harder and make money or die" kinda approach to life, which in many ways reminds me of the social darwinism thesis used by the Nazis to justify their wars against other nations and races (survival of the fittest).

From all ppl I got into contact with, be it through personal communication or their media (TV, comics, newsarticles etc.) it appears only the japanese are making a real distinction between Germany with all of it's history and the 12 years of Nazi dictatorship, not attributing Germany's successes to that bunch of idiots.

So, in light of this, how can anyone prevent this happening again if it has such an enourmous impact on the world even today.

I think, Bewolf, that if people are being honest and not politically correct, at the back of a lot of people's minds is the fact that the Nazis were a relatively small number of Germans, who were lead by an Austrian and allowed to flourish and achieve great power in your Country.

Now, I know that's a very simplistic statement. I also know that it's completely unfair to judge the Germany of today based on events that took place 70 years ago. But all it takes is a news report showing a handful of misguided kids in a major German city dressed as Nazis, to set this ball rolling again.

I think in the end, most sensible people will recognize the positive contribution that Germany has made to the world since the end of WWII in areas like engineering, rather than focus on the Nazis.

Without German rocket engineers, NASA would never have achieved landing a man on the moon in 1969, and the world would not have benefitted from the technological advances that came from the space program.

So, here's to Mercedez, BMW, VW, Boris Becker, Steffi Graff and Heidi Klum! Keep em coming!!!!:)

Haha, true.

But unluckily not really the point I am trying to make. Sorry if that did not come across well enough.

Hm, how to say this. Look, what the world thinks of Germany and it's contributions after WW2 is one thing, we had this discussion many times and will have in the future, too.

The problem I am talking about is the following...how do you lead a young generation of germans into a way that they can a) be proud of their country and b) do not have to refer to the Nazis to find any sort of praise.

As long as the rest of the world does not stop glorifying german achievements in the name of the Nazis whilst at the same time making the life of contempory and future germans harder.

The account is something like this:

1. Nazis, most evil ppl on the planet, but also highly praised.

2. Modern young Germans, still the most evil ppl on the planet, going by their selective perception of the masses on the internet mostly, but without the praise the Nazis get. Basicly "you suck, but the Wehrmacht rules". This in turn makes a lot of young germans go "ok, so we suck? no, you suck more, pi** of, (insert provocateur of your choice)". Thanks to the internet they grow up with such a perception of themselves and the world alike.

Notice the problem, especially in times of crisis like this?

The only place I hear anyone discussing Nazi's are internet forums or on capitol hill when comparisons are made.

Maybe in EU its a topic de jour but I dont see it here in the US.

I think they need to be taught the difference between perception and reality, Bewolf...especially as it relates to the internet. I also think that they need to be taught to accentuate the positive about being a modern, young German.

Here's a strange analogy for you. Take a 17 year old German computer hacker who uses his talent to create a nasty, malicious Trojan, with which he manages to infect millions of computers accross the world and causes great distress to millions of people.

To many people, he's a modern day Nazi seeking to dominate and inflict pain any way he can.

Now take the same 17 year old German, and have him send a Trojan that installs iteslf on millions of windows based computers all over the world and rewrites some Microsoft code and makes people's computers run 50 percent more efficiently.

He's a hero. Nazis? What Nazis? Never heard of them.:)

Based on my very limited and unscientific polling (talking with my co-workers/friends), here is what I am hearing:

- People seem to have no problems separating Nazis and German citizens of today. It never comes up about mixing Nazis and today's German citizens. Unless we are talking about splinter groups and they are always identified as splinter groups and not the underlaying norm.

- People are slowly recognizing that during the 1930's - 1940's not all German citizens were Nazis. This is coming slowly, but it is a positive change.

- People still have a hard time differentiating between the Nazi's and the German military during WWII.

- Because of this, when people think about WWII Germany, they think Nazi. That is probably not going to change.

- However, that being said, there is simply no way to ignore the Nazi movement when discussing German history. WWII is still a really big chunk of the public's perception of history. And the Nationalistic movement was a big part of German history.

- And let's be honest. For many people WWII history is a lot more interesting then Revolution of 1848. I would imagine that many European countries also have tourist focus on WWII (few seem to remember WWI but that is another peeve of mine).

- One of the cultural traits of Americans (and I am sure of other cultures) is our ability to forgive and move on. My co-workers/friends seem to have no problem separating Nazi Germany from Democratic Germany. We remember the Nazis of course, but that was a "different" Germany. We have the same perceptions of Japan. "Used to hate em, now like em. Let's move on and make money!"

- The perceptions of Germany are changing. Remember it has only been two generations since the Second World War. We are only in our third "post-WWII generation". Even in the current generation, I see signs that WWII is becoming "ancient history" and like other "ancient histories" is becoming interesting only to history buffs.

Just my unscientific observations.

Same way we manage with the history of slavery and genocide against the red indians. Just have to deal with it as a part of history and move on. People will always remind you of it. It was a different time and a different people. Personally, as a young man growing up in the 60s and 70s and looking back at WWII and contrasting it with the post-war German attitudes, I always thought the Germans honorably atoned for the war guilt by accepting it. That should not last forever, and I don't think it has. But an event as massive as WWII and Nazi aggression cannot easily be shrugged off.



Exactly why dictatorships in the modern era should not be allowed. Dictatorships, even in pissant countries, can lead to things like world wars. German people did not resist the Nazi political takeover very stenuously, and many Germans supported the Nazis. When Hitler grabbed the emergency powers, the people should have acted.

I know, a very simple view on things, but it doesn't take a lot of complexity to accomplish what the Nazis did.

Have you had a chance to read:

When Democracy Failed:The warnings of history
by Thom Hartmann

A very interesting paper describing exactly what you were posting.

In principle very true. The problem is, by todays standarts most children have ready access to the internet, youtube beeing on top of their usage. Lots have their first real contact with the nazi topics out of school within the internet, having a direct impact on their own perception of this era and all that comes with it today. I mean, I got the full blow of "you nazi!" often enough myself, but I only got into the internet "after" I already developed my own opinions about this topic, as is the case with most folks above the age of 30 here. That is not the case with the younger generation anymore, who are thrown into the barrel and often enough lack the wisdom to cope with this topic accordingly.

That goes so far as that these younger folks accuse their own government and other nations of lying about their past and using the Holocaust as an excuse to stay in control (this goes hand in hand with the impression of most germans of their government beeing utterly ineffective and too full of compromises, bad in a society that loves precision and the slogan "if you do something, do it 100% or not at all".) The support of democracy in general has already suffered by that within these age groups. Cry Wolf often enough and nobody will listen to it anymore, or worse, may try to repeat it.

And unless you make use of censorship and siteblocking on a big scale, that won't change anytime soon.

As I do not have any influence on the governments policy towards school and education, what would you guys suggest doing if you were to go active against this trend?

The Frau came to this country in the late 1980's. When she was in school in Germany during the 1960's, WWII was not taught in her history classes. German history stopped after WWI. Current history was picked up in the 1950s but that was taught in her civics classes.

There was no denial or covering up of the Nazi history, it just was not discussed. In many ways this mimics the American school systems concerning the treatment of Indian Tribes in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is kinda glossed over (at least it was in the 60's when I was a punk).

So I imagine every country/culture has its history they are not proud of, and often this history is not taught in schools. As a history nut, I disagree with this concept. To me history is history -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Knowing the darker aspects of American history does not make me like America less. America has done a lot of bad things, a lot of good things, and a lot of mediocre things. That's all part of our history. To conceal any part is doing a disservice to our children.

To me, it is important to recognize that my country is imperfect. Knowing this, helps me understand the imperfections of other countries/cultures.

There are many who would disagree with me on this.

Yeah, i'd hate to break it to you folks, but Germany as a country was the whole reason the Nazis came to power in the first place. They not only set them in power but openly aided the Holocaust and other atrocities. However, even the German people could admit they were wrong.

The statement, "not all Germans were nazis" is totally useless. It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either. Even when it was within their means to do so. And don't act like the Nazis tricked Germany either, Hitler laid out everything he intended to do step-by-step in Mein Kampf. The ultimate reality is Germany wanted to one-up the allies for the embarrasment of World War 1 and they were fully willing to embrace a violently nationalist and expansionist regime that never once hid its genocidal intentions.

Do you get what i'm saying here? I'm saying Germany let the Nazis take over just because of a 20 year old grudge.

So I don't understand what compels people to claim the Nazis and Germans were so separate from one another. Even when the German people themselves admitted they were horribly wrong. What are you defending here? People who say "we didn't know" are universally looked down upon in the country too. German citizens who claim that the crimes of the holocaust were unknown are tatamount to holocaust denial. What about the White Rose movement, Rossenstrasse protests, and Oskar Schindler? Fear of Nazi reprisal didn't stop them. Traudl Junge actually addmitted on her death bed that she spent her entire life making excuses for herself and Germany over what the Nazis did.

The Wehrmacht is far from blameless in war crimes. They may have contributed more to the death of western slavic peoples than any other cause in history. Even guys like Guderian could admit the Wehrmacht played the Nazi game.

So again, what are you defending?