Teh Nazis!

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either.

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

[FIREWALL]

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

That they didn't. The NsDAP was losing votes big time at the last free election in Germany. Within the coalition of other nationalistic parties, Hitler threatend to leave that if they didn't make him Chancellor. The partyleaders of that coalition talked to Hindenburg into making Hitler Chancellor, despite all the reservations to that, with the promise to "push him into the corner until he squeals". The rest is history.

[Lurchi]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

Hitler was never voted into power by the majority of german people - this is a myth constructed for obvious reasons by war propaganda.

Although the Nazis were the strongest party their star was already sinking as they lost votes during the last free election (despite massive terror and intimidation by the SA against other parties). The problem was that resistance was fragmented into various factions.

Hitler was "appointed" Chancellor by monarchist President Hindenburg who believed that germans need a "strong hand" like the old Kaiser. For Hitler this was his last and only chance as he was obviously unable to win through regular elections before.

When Hitler finally grabbed ultimate power no german voter was asked anymore - and after that, demonstrating against a million men army of thugs like the SA with a good chance of ending in a torture cellar was not smartest thing to to by a man of woman with a family at home ...

[CaptHawkeye]

Not voting him into directly. Why were the Nazis getting so many seats in the Reichstag in the first place? Why did their party balloon in size during the early 30s? Even if they were losing popularity just before Hitler became chancellor, they had to *be* popular in the first place.

You're right in that plenty of people in Germany had considered the Nazis to be violent lunatics from Day 1. The problem is plenty MORE thought they were national icons. Just look at the obscene popularity Hitler gained after Mein Kampf, the Nuremburg Rallies, etc. Crowds as far as the eye can see.

Of course, even that's still barely an excuse. White Rose and Rossenstrasse all occured during the 40s, the height of Nazi power. They didn't let the Nazi bogeymen scare them.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

White Rose and Rossenstrasse all occured during the 40s, the height of Nazi power. They didn't let the Nazi bogeymen scare them.

You are aware that most members of the White Rose were executed? How many people are willing to risk there very life for something they can hardly change?
Several thousand Germans were executed by the Nazis. Sometimes for as small acts as telling a joke that made fun of Hitler or voicing out there opinion (like the White Rose people did). That usually keeps people in line. If you don't know who you can trust you better stay silent because a wrong word to a wrong person could be your end.
Are you from an east European country? If so then ask yourself what did your ancestors do against communism? By all means Stalin's thugs are responsible for at least as many dead and they had installed a terror regime which could challenge the German one in terms of cruelty.

[CaptainHaplo]

My mother, a naturalized US citizen - was born in Germany in 45. My maternal grandfather was a Nazi. It took me over a year longer than normal to get my security clearance because of that fact. Turns out he was a party member on the basis of being asked if he was, with a gun to his head. He gave the only answer that meant his immediate survival so he could care for his family. I never met the man, he died well before I was born. But I think no less of him because of his answer.

To say that every German was a Nazi is a gross distortion of reality. Many were - at the point of a gun. In a country being torn apart by war, when your asked by thugs who you know will pull the trigger if they don't like the answer, and you have children and one on the way - what would your answer be?

To claim that Germans did nothing to stop the rise of Hitler to power is pure fallacy and demonstrates a total lack of understanding history.

Now - as to the question of how to move past the issue of Nazi-ism in today's youth hero worship world. First off the German government needs to stop trying to suppress the reality - swastikas exist. Nazi-ism exists. History - exists. What you tell youth they cannot see, display, learn about, etc, only makes them want to do wo. But here is the key. Not one German leader today was part of the Party Heirarchy that led Germany in those terrible years.

Today in the US some people still agitate for "reparations" to blacks for the history of slavery this country has. My response - "If I ever have a slave, then I should pay.". Simply put - it wasn't me that did it, and it won't be me that pays for it. I have never owned a slave, I recognize every person's equality as a human, and thus I owe nothing to the descendants of those who were enslaved.

Same thing applies to Germany today. The SOCIETY of Germany has to learn to stop feeling sorry for the actions of people other than themselves. They didn't create the Nazi menace, they didn't allow it to build power. What they must do is learn to stand tall and say "We are smarter, we are wiser, and we are united in not allowing it to happen again - we learn the history lesson and will not repeat the errors of OTHERS - for these errors were not our own."

Only then can German society put that period of history in perspective. Once they do, then they can look any accusation referring back to nazism in the eye - and respond with pride that they have learned the lesson of history, matured as a society, and that it is sad to see their accuser has not matured as much in this day and age.

Nationalism is strong in the German heart. Its hard to look at your grandfather and think what they may have been a part of. But its time to stop living in their shadow. Do that and you open doors for true pride in things worth being proud of.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

You are aware that most members of the White Rose were executed? How many people are willing to risk there very life for something they can hardly change?

This does not address the point. The fact is White Rose would not have even been necessary had the Nazis been bared from power and acceptance in the first place. But the fact that White Rose existed indicates their were people in Germany who knew fully what the Nazis were doing and even called for people to join them against the party. It's just too bad they came too late.

Several thousand Germans were executed by the Nazis.

8 million Jews and other non-aryans were executed by the Nazis. Many uncountable millions of Slavs were executed by the Nazis. Do you see why I find opinions like yours ridiculous?

Sometimes for as small acts as telling a joke that made fun of Hitler or voicing out there opinion (like the White Rose people did). That usually keeps people in line. If you don't know who you can trust you better stay silent because a wrong word to a wrong person could be your end.

Unfortunately for the Jews, they didn't even have the choice to just stay silent. But hey, Germans were threatened...by the party they chose to support. The party that threatened mass violence to all of its neighbors.

"We didn't know" is not a sufficient excuse. That's the end of it.

By all means Stalin's thugs are responsible for at least as many dead and they had installed a terror regime which could challenge the German one in terms of cruelty.

By all means Stalin and his regime were equally cruel and sadistic. The difference is no one covered for him after death. The Post-Stalin Soviet Union actually went out the way to discredit Stalin and his public image for good reason. The man was a tyrant, and the Soviet and modern people of Russia never liked him. If the Nazis hadn't been so brutal to the western Slavs, they would have actually risen against him and joined the axis.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

Yeah, I have to prove the Nazis took power in the first place and had wide scale public support.

Public support was there, maybe not at a constant high and certainly not to the degree foreign folks often make it out to be, but in general it was. Enough to not threaten Nazi rule anyways.

[August]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Public support was there, maybe not at a constant high and certainly not to the degree foreign folks often make it out to be, but in general it was. Enough to not threaten Nazi rule anyways.

People speak of that support with the advantage of hindsight. They don't understand that things are never that clear before the fact.

[Jimbuna]

I doubt there is a country in Europe that doesn't have a section of it's population or a political movement that purports to support nazi tendancies.

The key is how the rest of society manage the situation, stop them spreading the vile and evil hatred they spew and keep them in check.

[Frame57]

If I could have the chance to sit down and have a beer with Karl Donitz, I would...

[CaptHawkeye]

Oh I would too. I'd just be picky about what I took from him. Donitz remained an ardent nationalist (Hint: not national socialist) his entire life. I generally dislike people who place meaningless national pride ahead of lives.