[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by nimitstexan

First, I am for the most part very impressed with RFB 1.28,

However, a couple of changes I consider to be "backwards" steps in terms of realism, namely lowering AAA engagement ranges to 600 and reducing the ability of the AI controlled sonarmen (my theory being, in SHIV I am playing as a sub captain, not a AAA gunner or hydrophone operator; while I should be able to man those stations compentantly in an emergency or as a "diversion", in general my job is to con the ship while depending on the expertise of my crew in their various jobs.) Anyway, long story short, what changes do I need to make to increase AAA engagement ranges to realistic distances and improve hydrophone operators to their original skill level?

Also, is JP Ship Dimension Fix 1.2b included and/or does it work (or is it even necessary) with RFB?

The AAA engagement range forces you to behave realistically when confronted with planes - crash dive. Unless stuck in shallows, you should never be duking it out with planes. If you are stuck in shallows duking it out, you should be screwed more or less.

I was not aware of the AI sonarman's capability being reduced.

[CaptainCox]

@Beery. does all the torps go dud/misfire also late 43 and onward? I am running a career in 43 and i had like 6 duds/1 early out of 9 fired. Maybe it has been discussed here earlier, but this gigantic thread is just to big to sift through. I thought that "On July 24, 1943, he ordered his submarines to deactivate the Mark VI magnetic influence detonators and fire for contact hits only." etc etc

http://www.military.com/Content/More...file=PRtorpedo

Or is there another reason for this in RFB? I mean, sure, you are more on edge now but, seems an awful lot of duds...at least late 43.

[MudMarine]

Beery,
Please consider the following to RFB Mod.

1) Revived Top-Side commands (on Num-Lock) by Blightlighting
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115743

This mainly effects surface gunnery stations

2) Free sight for sonarman by latemail
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114094

Frees up a view of the sonar station with that big note.

3) 360 DBP for SH4 v1.2 and v1.3
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108555

4) Slide-out Recognition Manual Stand Alone Version by Probex
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112944

even better if this closed and opened to the last page opened.

5) Custom Captain's Log Entries
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113536

You can customise your log entries and make it read like a captain's log.

6) RetroNavMapTools - Jiims NavMapTools - Aces Colored Menu Bar http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109170

Those Nav tools just take up to much space on the map. This allows for drop down menue buttons. This is only the Nav map, the modder has not been able to mod the combat plot map.

7) Course indicator mod for Compass. This replaces the dang triangle with a line. I would also like to see this gaged increase by 50%. I were bifocals and see my bearings and heading is real hard. I believe there is an existing mod that replaces that triangle with a line.

With that said and done back ta learning how to fire those dang torpedoes in practice. Bought a 17 by 23 inch dry eraser board. With fine tip sharpie drew bearing circle with 4 divissions of range. Inside cirlcle "0" south like in SACF ( It-Was) and out side "0" North. Thwe main reason for the manual plot board helps me get to grips with wahtis acutually going on. For some odd reason I get a type of vertigo with direction in the boat. So for awhile I will be doing a lot of pausing until I can master manual TDC without it.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by MudMarine

Beery,
Please consider the following to RFB Mod.

1) Revived Top-Side commands (on Num-Lock) by Blightlighting
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115743

This mainly effects surface gunnery stations

2) Free sight for sonarman by latemail
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114094

Frees up a view of the sonar station with that big note.

3) 360 DBP for SH4 v1.2 and v1.3
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108555

4) Slide-out Recognition Manual Stand Alone Version by Probex
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112944

even better if this closed and opened to the last page opened.

5) Custom Captain's Log Entries
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113536

You can customise your log entries and make it read like a captain's log.

6) RetroNavMapTools - Jiims NavMapTools - Aces Colored Menu Bar http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109170

I'll take a look at these. However, I don't want to get too involved in UI mods. In RUb I basically threw everything into the mod including the kitchen sink. RFB is meant to be focused on just the basics, realism as job #1 and everything else left out unless it's desperately needed and can't be added as a compatible standalone mod. With JSGME we have a much improved ability to mix and match mods, which wasn't the case when I started work on RUb two years ago. This time around I really want to make RFB into a basic 'realism starter mod' that players can start from - mainly because this time I want to play the game as well as modding it.

Having said that, some of these mods are very interesting, but I fear a couple of them probably need to be merged with existing RFB files and they look as if they'll be adjusting files that the developers love to mess with in official patches. As such I'm probably going to hold off on including them until after all official patching is over. The exceptions are the topside commands mod, the 360 degree plotter and the captain's log mod, which I definitely would like to include even if they break my "don't mess with files the devs mess with" rule.

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCox

@Beery. does all the torps go dud/misfire also late 43 and onward? I am running a career in 43 and i had like 6 duds/1 early out of 9 fired. Maybe it has been discussed here earlier, but this gigantic thread is just to big to sift through. I thought that "On July 24, 1943, he ordered his submarines to deactivate the Mark VI magnetic influence detonators and fire for contact hits only." etc etc

http://www.military.com/Content/More...file=PRtorpedo

Or is there another reason for this in RFB? I mean, sure, you are more on edge now but, seems an awful lot of duds...at least late 43.

Can't remember where I read it, but I thought the torpedo issue wasn't really ironed out until september of 1943. Just deactivating the mag detonator wouldn't fix the bad contact pins.

[tedhealy]

http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...998_4_56.shtml

Further testing revealed the trouble: The spring-driven firing pin, which moved at right angles to the axis of the torpedo, was being squeezed by the compression of other parts of the warhead and couldn’t overcome the friction caused by a solid, head-on hit. Within days several solutions were found. The simplest was to pare down the weight of the pin to reduce the friction on its guide studs. The Navy lost no time in putting this finding into practice, and on September 30, 1943, the Barb left Pearl Harbor carrying 20 torpedoes, the first ones to have modified firing pins in their Mark 6 exploders.

[tedhealy]

Some great quotes from that article

http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...998_4_56.shtml

Scott fired all four stern tubes from 880 yards at the leading escort carrier and then almost immediately fired all six bow tubes at the larger carrier, just 650 yards away. Sonar reported four thundering explosions from the first salvo and a few minutes later three explosions from the second. The Tunny sank six Japanese vessels during World War II—but none of them on .the night of April 9. The explosions the crew heard did only minor damage, for the sub’s Mark 14 torpedoes had all gone off before they hit the ships they were aimed at.

10 fish fired, all bad.

Maintaining the initiative, the Halibut fired three Mark 14 torpedoes from 1,900 yards. Galantin watched through his periscope as the torpedoes ran right up to the destroyer without detonating. He waited, then fired three more torpedoes down the throat of the charging vessel. They also refused to detonate, and the Halibut was forced to go deep to evade the destroyer. Six duds for six fired

6 fired, all bad.

The earliest problem to crop up, in the very first days after Pearl Harbor, was unreliable depth control. This could be a severe handicap. For example, in December 1941 the Sargo, under Lt. Comdr. Tyrrell D. Jacobs, fired 13 torpedoes for zero hits. Other subs had results nearly as poor.

Of course who knows if these were on target, but still torpedoes were extremely unreliable.

The Scamp, on the first attack of her first war patrol, in March 1943, saw all three torpedoes detonate early. Two of her next six did the same. Submariners were hearing explosions, even seeing what appeared to be solid hits, but the target ships steamed on as if nothing had happened.

5 of 9 premature, plus some looked like hits, but the target just kept on going.

In July 1943 the Tinosa ran up against the last major problem to plague the Mark 14 torpedo and Mark 6 exploder. Patrolling west of Truk, Lt. Comdr. Lawrence R. Daspit sighted Japan’s largest oil tanker, the 19,262-ton Tonan Maru No. 3, without an escort. Quickly swinging into attack position, Daspit and his crew fired a spread of four torpedoes at an oblique angle from a range of 4,000 yards—not ideal, but the best position the submerged Tinosa could maneuver into. She was rewarded with two solid hits that did little damage. Tonan Maru No. 3 continued on her way and Daspit fired two more torpedoes. They hit and exploded, causing the ship to stop dead and start to settle slowly by the stern.

The tanker was dead in the water with not another vessel in sight. Deck guns on the disabled vessel kept the Tinosa underwater but couldn’t prevent Daspit from maneuvering into ideal attack position. Just 875 yards from the immobilized tanker, Daspit fired a single torpedo to finish her off. There was no explosion, but Daspit, at the periscope, saw a splash where the torpedo should have hit, just as sonar stopped registering the sound of the torpedo’s propellers. The Tinosa fired two more torpedoes. They also refused to detonate.


The first six shots, fired at extreme range and less than ideal angles, had resulted in two solid explosions and a tanker dead in the water. Then three more, at an ideal angle and range, had yielded nothing. The Tinosa had seven torpedoes left. Over the next hour and a half, six of them were removed and checked carefully, but when they were fired, the result was always the same: another dud. With one torpedo left, the Tinosa withdrew and headed to Pearl Harbor. The reaction of Tonan Maru No. 3’s crew was not recorded, but one can imagine their relief when the damaged ship was towed into Truk lagoon.

An interesting read.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by CaptainCox

@Beery. does all the torps go dud/misfire also late 43 and onward? I am running a career in 43 and i had like 6 duds/1 early out of 9 fired. Maybe it has been discussed here earlier, but this gigantic thread is just to big to sift through. I thought that "On July 24, 1943, he ordered his submarines to deactivate the Mark VI magnetic influence detonators and fire for contact hits only." etc etc

http://www.military.com/Content/More...file=PRtorpedo

Or is there another reason for this in RFB? I mean, sure, you are more on edge now but, seems an awful lot of duds...at least late 43.

The mod only changes the data for torpedoes before July 1943. After that the stock SH4 settings take over - unless there's a bug in SH4 that prevents this changeover from happening. Given the generally awful state of the game I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case, but if so there's not much we'll be able to do about it.

[LukeFF]

Beery, another question for you (on top of all my others, lol):

You say in the readme file that the "No map contact update" box should be left unchecked on the hardest difficulty settings. While I think it's totally realistic to believe contacts spotted by the watch crew would be plotted on the charts, don't you think it leans a little too much into the un-realism arena to have the movement of these contacts simultaneously tracked moving across the map? Seen this way, all I would have to do when hunting a convoy is go to the charts to see whether or not a warship is moving in towards me, instead of looking around with my own eyes.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Beery, another question for you (on top of all my others, lol):

You say in the readme file that the "No map contact update" box should be left unchecked on the hardest difficulty settings. While I think it's totally realistic to believe contacts spotted by the watch crew would be plotted on the charts, don't you think it leans a little too much into the un-realism arena to have the movement of these contacts simultaneously tracked moving across the map? Seen this way, all I would have to do when hunting a convoy is go to the charts to see whether or not a warship is moving in towards me, instead of looking around with my own eyes.

With the map contacts reduced in RFB you only get very basic info on the map, and only when the sub is surfaced or has its periscope raised. This simulates your subordinates calling out bearings and ranges to ships and plotting their movements on the map for you. Once you're submerged you only get bearing lines from the hydrophone guy and a very vague idea of the distance to the contact. RFB's map contacts are done in the same way that RUb's were, so it's a lot different from the info you get with the standard game's map contacts. So, in short, the answer is that, yes, you do get a bit more precise info than a real commander would have, but with the limitations of SH4 it's impossible to get it exactly right, and if you switch map contacts off altogether you're getting a LOT less info than real sub commanders had. I believe RFB's system of map contacts is the closest to true realism that it's possible to get with SH4.

[Bando]

Originally Posted by Beery

I believe RFB's system of map contacts is the closest to true realism that it's possible to get with SH4.

I think you're right. There is something with the radar contacts though. When a warship pops up it's identified by the radaroperator as a warship (it's a diamant shape). How do they know that???

Second thing, I've been using strict ranges mod by U-bones, which seems (to me) a good addition to RFB.

Regards

Bando

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Bando

I think you're right. There is something with the radar contacts though. When a warship pops up it's identified by the radaroperator as a warship (it's a diamant shape). How do they know that???

Good point. Beery, is it possible to mod the contact shape so that all contacts show up as a square instead of a diamond?

[perisher]

Originally Posted by Bando

There is something with the radar contacts though. When a warship pops up it's identified by the radaroperator as a warship (it's a diamant shape). How do they know that???

An experienced operator could tell a great deal from the return echo on his screen. He wouldn't always be able to differentiate between a warship and a merchant but sometimes he could. There are many references to this in the literature of the period. Additionally if the target is emitting its own radar transmissions it can only be a warship.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Beery

With the map contacts reduced in RFB you only get very basic info on the map, and only when the sub is surfaced or has its periscope raised. This simulates your subordinates calling out bearings and ranges to ships and plotting their movements on the map for you. Once you're submerged you only get bearing lines from the hydrophone guy and a very vague idea of the distance to the contact. RFB's map contacts are done in the same way that RUb's were, so it's a lot different from the info you get with the standard game's map contacts. So, in short, the answer is that, yes, you do get a bit more precise info than a real commander would have, but with the limitations of SH4 it's impossible to get it exactly right, and if you switch map contacts off altogether you're getting a LOT less info than real sub commanders had. I believe RFB's system of map contacts is the closest to true realism that it's possible to get with SH4.

Good answer, and I have to agree with you on this one. It's much like my argument for the re-inclusion of the chronometer to get a speed estimate - it simulates you calling out contact bearings and ranges to your plotting officer and having him estimate the speed based on what you tell him. I'll make sure to disable this setting in my next career.

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Beery, another question for you (on top of all my others, lol):

You say in the readme file that the "No map contact update" box should be left unchecked on the hardest difficulty settings. While I think it's totally realistic to believe contacts spotted by the watch crew would be plotted on the charts, don't you think it leans a little too much into the un-realism arena to have the movement of these contacts simultaneously tracked moving across the map? Seen this way, all I would have to do when hunting a convoy is go to the charts to see whether or not a warship is moving in towards me, instead of looking around with my own eyes.

Just ignore the readme and check 'no map contact update', that's how I play I like being responsible for plotting on the map. Sure the captain wouldn't be doing it, but I enjoy it. As you said, you really have to keep your eye on escorts when you can't check the map to get a quick fix on where they are and where they are heading.