escort AI: a user's guide

Bilge_Rat · 03-05-10, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

There was no "dumbing down of AI to make it easier for casual players".

And the AI is really not the same, it now goes through scripts, tries to apply some tactics (you may see something interesting from time to time).

I certainly did not mean that in a pejorative way and have amended my post to be clearer. I am only trying to figure out why so many players are complaining about not being deteced by the AI. From what I can see, the AI works as designed.

Since you are here, elanaiba, could you comment on the improvements to the AI in SH5 compared to SH3/4?

Dowly · 03-05-10, 07:25 AM

Also, when on surface and you see that grey circle that represents from how far the escort/merchant is able to see you can be affected by turning smaller silhoutte against the merchant (i.e. bow or aft towards the enemy).

I'm in a bit of hurry so cant start the game and go take a screenshot, so enjoy my 1337 photoshop skilz!!!11!!

Night and different stages of damage to the enemy affects the visual detection range aswell.

Decoman · 03-05-10, 07:36 AM

Did I understand this correctly, that the more quiet your uboat runs, the less range the AI ships have when using ASDIC?

If this is so, isn't that abit unrealistic? I would expect the ASDIC range to be a fixed range. Having said that, I am no expert in this subject matter.

Edit: Maybe ASDIC range is depending on current uboat depth?

Dowly · 03-05-10, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decoman

Did I understand this correctly, that the more quiet your uboat runs, the less range the AI ships have when using ASDIC?

If this is so, isn't that abit unrealistic? I would expect the ASDIC range to be a fixed range. Having said that, I am no expert in this subject matter.

ASDIC range is fixed, it doesn't get smaller or larger. It is the passive hydrophone sweep range that get's smaller and larger.

elanaiba · 03-05-10, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

ASDIC range is fixed, it doesn't get smaller or larger. It is the passive hydrophone sweep range that get's smaller and larger.

ASDIC range is not fixed, its dependent on the speed of the platform (destroyer). Also note early models have a minimum range, dependent on how deep you are. This is harder to see considering that when you go down... you lose visual contact with the DD and its representation on the map.

ASDIC is also dependent on the aspect of the target. Just as with visual, you want to have the smaller section pointed at the guy pinging for you.

Much of what you're seeing is just a visual form of what has always been in Silent Hunter (3-4). If you remember in Silent Service II (or was it SH1?) you would get tips on how far your periscope or broadside can be seen in the current light conditions. SH5 just shows you the same in an easier to understand/use form.

Bilge_Rat: No worries, I just wanted to clarify. I'll get back to you on your question

skwasjer · 03-05-10, 07:40 AM

That is just totally cool. I like it...

sergei · 03-05-10, 08:08 AM

Good post Bilge Rat.

jlederer · 03-05-10, 09:27 AM

Really appreciate seeing that analysis. It's very good to see that changing speed, aspect ratio, and silent running have the sort of impact they should. I wonder if sea state has an impact (does passive sonar work poorly in stormy conditions) and what impact depth / thermal layer has?

Bilge_Rat · 03-05-10, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlederer

Really appreciate seeing that analysis. It's very good to see that changing speed, aspect ratio, and silent running have the sort of impact they should. I wonder if sea state has an impact (does passive sonar work poorly in stormy conditions) and what impact depth / thermal layer has?

All those factors have an impact. Look here for a more in depth discussion of the technical aspects of the AI:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163089

janh · 03-05-10, 11:33 AM

I very much appreciate the lead developer posting here and giving some substantial information on the game. As the past weeks have shown, lack of information leads to speculation and, thus, an incomplete or skewed picture. Also many previews can't do that justice, which reviewer would spent month playing to figure out the details for a quick article?
But you can't blame people, it has been human nature for centuries to speculate and fill knowledge gaps.

Particularly in this forum with all the sub-simulation cracks waiting for a release with the potential to finally replaced SHIII+GWX or SHIV+OM, it would have been much better if the developers had released more information about the game beforehand. Scripting, damage models, AI, physics, the way sound-propagation in the water is approximated etc. Many thinks could still be highlighted by the developers, and could change the way the community views this release.

Presently, the (rumored?) potential of the game is still well hidden for most of the people -- where should that information come from anyway?

Sunfighter · 03-05-10, 11:58 AM

Sorry I still think the AI has serious issues. Especially convoy and port patrol AI's. Namely Convoy escorts wont peel off during an attack and search the area, making them just another merchant with guns in the convoy. And port AI wont react to attacks. I just went into scapa flow and sank 3 ships, not a single patrol broke their normal patrol pattern to search the area. Youd think with the HMS Hood capsized, a heavy cruiser split in half and a troop ship sank, that maybe an alert would of went out or something. Even if i wasnt detected (it was 3am and very stormy) youd think the ships in the harbor would scatter...but nah..they just stayed put and the patrol boats continued on as if nothing happened.

On a funny note though, leaving the harbor i fired my last torp at one of the escorts from long range, I just missed him, it was one of those moments when you say UGH! out loud because you missed by what seemed like a freaking inch, the torp was on slow speed, and it entered that passive sonar detection ring...and the destroyer saw it apparently, and chased after it, lucky it never caught up with it.

03-05-10, 07:40 AM	#6
skwasjer The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,549 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 3	That is just totally cool. I like it... __________________ S3D - Silent 3ditor (v0.9.9) - S3D homepage - Open sourced S3D file parser API's - SUBSIM thread SH5 mods: Speech Recognition for SH5 \| Digital UI Clock Tutorials: [TEC] Import/export 3D models to/from game using S3D [TEC] How to work with the model viewer in S3D - VIDEO

03-05-10, 09:27 AM	#8
jlederer Bosun Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 63 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	Thanks Really appreciate seeing that analysis. It's very good to see that changing speed, aspect ratio, and silent running have the sort of impact they should. I wonder if sea state has an impact (does passive sonar work poorly in stormy conditions) and what impact depth / thermal layer has?

03-05-10, 11:33 AM	#10
janh Stinking drunk in Trinidad Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 349 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	facts... I very much appreciate the lead developer posting here and giving some substantial information on the game. As the past weeks have shown, lack of information leads to speculation and, thus, an incomplete or skewed picture. Also many previews can't do that justice, which reviewer would spent month playing to figure out the details for a quick article? But you can't blame people, it has been human nature for centuries to speculate and fill knowledge gaps. Particularly in this forum with all the sub-simulation cracks waiting for a release with the potential to finally replaced SHIII+GWX or SHIV+OM, it would have been much better if the developers had released more information about the game beforehand. Scripting, damage models, AI, physics, the way sound-propagation in the water is approximated etc. Many thinks could still be highlighted by the developers, and could change the way the community views this release. Presently, the (rumored?) potential of the game is still well hidden for most of the people -- where should that information come from anyway?

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03-05-10, 07:25 AM	#2
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,053 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Also, when on surface and you see that grey circle that represents from how far the escort/merchant is able to see you can be affected by turning smaller silhoutte against the merchant (i.e. bow or aft towards the enemy). I'm in a bit of hurry so cant start the game and go take a screenshot, so enjoy my 1337 photoshop skilz!!!11!! Night and different stages of damage to the enemy affects the visual detection range aswell.

03-05-10, 07:36 AM	#3
Decoman Frogman Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 306 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Did I understand this correctly, that the more quiet your uboat runs, the less range the AI ships have when using ASDIC? If this is so, isn't that abit unrealistic? I would expect the ASDIC range to be a fixed range. Having said that, I am no expert in this subject matter. Edit: Maybe ASDIC range is depending on current uboat depth?

03-05-10, 08:08 AM	#7
sergei Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 1,788 Downloads: 405 Uploads: 29	Good post Bilge Rat.

03-05-10, 11:58 AM	#11
Sunfighter A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 78 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Sorry I still think the AI has serious issues. Especially convoy and port patrol AI's. Namely Convoy escorts wont peel off during an attack and search the area, making them just another merchant with guns in the convoy. And port AI wont react to attacks. I just went into scapa flow and sank 3 ships, not a single patrol broke their normal patrol pattern to search the area. Youd think with the HMS Hood capsized, a heavy cruiser split in half and a troop ship sank, that maybe an alert would of went out or something. Even if i wasnt detected (it was 3am and very stormy) youd think the ships in the harbor would scatter...but nah..they just stayed put and the patrol boats continued on as if nothing happened. On a funny note though, leaving the harbor i fired my last torp at one of the escorts from long range, I just missed him, it was one of those moments when you say UGH! out loud because you missed by what seemed like a freaking inch, the torp was on slow speed, and it entered that passive sonar detection ring...and the destroyer saw it apparently, and chased after it, lucky it never caught up with it.