Getting frustrated by Escorts, What am i doing wrong???

H0ggyd0g · 07-18-18, 06:23 PM

Okay so i am no stranger to subsims or basic uboat tactics, I run with as close to full realism on the wolves of steel mod as i can (with the external camera for cinematic shenanigans). I can id targets, use the relevant tools to get course, speed, range and AOB. and i can sink targets with modest torpedo spreads.

I am currently not even out of 1939 and any escort with an ASDIC system is impossible to shake. Oh and they seem to be able to multiply literally out of thin air!!! (Mid Atlantic, a type B destroyer manages to get visual on me from about 7000yds, no other ship in sight. I start to dive to 150m, start to get depth charged and lo and behold there are 3 destoyers circling me!!!)

Sneaking away using silent running at 1-2kts? Tried and failed!

Using the scripts to perform pump fakes with decoys? Shakes them for about 5-10 mins and then suddenly there they are again!!!

Any combination of speed, course and maneuver is countered by clairvoyant like ASDIC detection.

I seem to be unable to get anymore than 5000yds away before some magic elastic band drags them back in my direction.

After 8 hours they are clearly out of depth charges but still circle above me with what seems like 20/20 vision through the water waiting for my batteries to run out!

Seriously its like there is a 150m flagpole sitting above my boat that they can see and its not even funny anymore.

If this is what its like in 1939 I'm screwed if i get any further in the war!

This is not an isolated incident, this pattern happens every time I am detected.

What can I do?

XenonSurf · 07-18-18, 07:37 PM

Hello H0ggyd0g,

In the early stage of war, the British East cost is full of patrol ships going along the coast, and they can hear you even when you are surfaced (if they happen to be close enough). Patrol ships are a meager target anyway and difficult to hit once they detect you, so I advice you to simply avoid them.

If they spot you, then before you dive don't forget to send a contact report, this may send in friendly planes to 'eleminate your problem'

Your sonarman is quite good if you go below periscope depth, it can hear loud sounds up to 40km. So you can plot a course to avoid patrols and identify good targets long before they are in sight.

As for evasion tactics when detected and when I'm submerged:
The closer the destroyer is, the less I need to be stealthy, meaning I will go a course at full speed directly towards him and making course change at the last moment, then I change to 30-60° at slow speed while he's still depth-charging elsewhere. I never try to sink a destroyer unless there are 4 or more and 1 happens to be on the opposite side far away from others, in which case if I sink the single one I can probably escape in the opposite direction of the other ones...Also always think about a surface escape first, and when at 3000m away from the next patrol ship, even if he spots you, you can gain time by going flank for a while, crush-diving and radically change direction.
These are just rough tactics that can work, but no guarantee, the AI in SH5 is smarter than SH3 I think

vdr1981 · 07-18-18, 08:29 PM

If one of the destroyers is able to detect your presence with her sensors (even periodically) they will never let you go, why would they?

Nearby destroyers can also "communicate" with each other, don't forget that...And be very careful regarding your sound signature. Even the early escorts can hear quite well.

Try to convince them that you are already "dead" or that you somehow managed to leave the area...

Early escorts in TWoS are nothing special really but they are also not stupid...

Spraki · 07-18-18, 09:04 PM

I thought I was the only one, but I did noticed this too.

Especially on patrol boats. I could be anywhere, and they'd circle over my head perfectly for hours. And usually, I have the "detected" music playing the whole time. ,_,

This is only an issue when I am not detected. Once it does happen, it is like the enemy has a double agent on my boat with a beacon >_>.

But oh well. The only real way to survive is not to poke the escorts at all. This does feel like my initial SH2 days, where stealth suddenly went poof and I ended up getting nuked by magic depth charges.

vdr1981 · 07-18-18, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spraki

I thought I was the only one, but I did noticed this too.

Especially on patrol boats. I could be anywhere, and they'd circle over my head perfectly for hours. And usually, I have the "detected" music playing the whole time. ,_,

This is only an issue when I am not detected. Once it does happen, it is like the enemy has a double agent on my boat with a beacon >_>.

But oh well. The only real way to survive is not to poke the escorts at all. This does feel like my initial SH2 days, where stealth suddenly went poof and I ended up getting nuked by magic depth charges.

Sometimes I do feel that we aren't talking about the same game here...

"Double agent" on your boat is probably your sound signature. I don't know why is so hard to understand that enemy warships have hydro capabilities as well...

XenonSurf · 07-18-18, 10:02 PM

I remember in SH1 the patrol ships had the tactic to shut down their engines and wait for you on the surface, also to go away from you at some speed and return at max speed

For knowing what they do exactly in SH5 one can put all contacts and sonar cones on in the TAI with the Option Editor. I did so a month ago and even then it was a hard time to evade...

H0ggyd0g · 07-19-18, 01:21 AM

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm guessing the best defence as always is to avoid being detected at all!

The thing about the escorts communicating sounds right. As one or two of them do DC runs there always seems to be at least one standing off almost standing still. Guess he is listening and then redirecting the other boats.

In regards to my noise signature I have two questions.

1. Is the thermocline modelled in SH5 and if so at what depth would I find it at in various areas?

2. Could minor damage to my boat cause extra noise?

vdr1981 · 07-19-18, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H0ggyd0g

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm guessing the best defence as always is to avoid being detected at all!

The thing about the escorts communicating sounds right. As one or two of them do DC runs there always seems to be at least one standing off almost standing still. Guess he is listening and then redirecting the other boats.

Exactly! When destroyer is static or moving very slow she can hear you on a short range even if you're on full silent running. So, sometimes is better to descent as deep as possible, stop all engines and simply act as a hole in the water...

Quote:

In regards to my noise signature I have two questions.

1. Is the thermocline modelled in SH5 and if so at what depth would I find it at in various areas?

Yes, but you won't see much use of it because the thermal layer is not so "shallow". Still, when it comes to SH5, deeper is always better...

Quote:

2. Could minor damage to my boat cause extra noise?

Of course, especially if you have leaking...

KirinFrost · 07-23-18, 01:21 PM

just go as deep as you can and move at most 1knot per hr lol

although i dont use WOS regularly but this tactic generally seem to work

alternatively just stay still and only surface for oxygen at night before going back down

there were a couple of times whereby i surfaced and sailed away from destroyers at night at full speed though....

XenonSurf · 07-24-18, 03:24 AM

Oh and:

I think all SH games have a weird behavior: Avoid going at high TC if you hide, if you go x16 or x32 you are fine, but go higher and destroyers will 'magically' detect you and comming towards you from nowhere...
Happens mainly if you are damaged already.

In SH1, SH3 this applies. In SH5 I don't know, I haven't tested it fully yet.

KirinFrost · 07-24-18, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XenonSurf

Oh and:

I think all SH games have a weird behavior: Avoid going at high TC if you hide, if you go x16 or x32 you are fine, but go higher and destroyers will 'magically' detect you and comming towards you from nowhere...
Happens mainly if you are damaged already.

In SH1, SH3 this applies. In SH5 I don't know, I haven't tested it fully yet.

sounds a lot like a bug

XenonSurf · 07-24-18, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirinFrost

sounds a lot like a bug

Yes, and in SH1 / SH3 there is no workaround or fix for it. (Reference: GWX manual and other posts).

Spraki · 07-24-18, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Sometimes I do feel that we aren't talking about the same game here...

Ditto.

Quote:

"Double agent" on your boat is probably your sound signature. I don't know why is so hard to understand that enemy warships have hydro capabilities as well...

Really? I could've sworn it was one of my crewmen playing drumsticks on my reserve torps.
XD

Regarding that TC bug, I wouldn't be surprisesd if sh5 also had some of it. I tend to reset TC back to 1x by going over the threshold for a sec. You do get 64x for a sec.

Anywaaaaaays

jonny_bass26 · 06-07-19, 04:23 PM

One thing I've found - don't know if it'll be of any help to anyone, but still - is the importance of "silent running". Even if you're crawling along at 1kt (or even stopped) at 240m, with no reloading or damage or anything going on...if you haven't pressed that pesky Z key (by default), you might as well have a brass band on board, piped up to any and all nearby escorts. For all I know, that's what they're doing...*unless* you specifically tell them not to.

XenonSurf · 06-07-19, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny_bass26

One thing I've found - don't know if it'll be of any help to anyone, but still - is the importance of "silent running". Even if you're crawling along at 1kt (or even stopped) at 240m, with no reloading or damage or anything going on...if you haven't pressed that pesky Z key (by default), you might as well have a brass band on board, piped up to any and all nearby escorts. For all I know, that's what they're doing...*unless* you specifically tell them not to.

Silent Running doesn't help me very much. It helps before you are detected the first time, and you need to switch off Battlestation command. Once you are detected, I find that silent running is useless, it doesn't make any difference, I have tested this with all activated enemy detection cones: They don't get smaller (tested with IRAI 0.41, but in TWoS this may have been tweaked differently.)

07-18-18, 06:23 PM	#1
H0ggyd0g Nub Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 3 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Getting frustrated by Escorts, What am i doing wrong??? Okay so i am no stranger to subsims or basic uboat tactics, I run with as close to full realism on the wolves of steel mod as i can (with the external camera for cinematic shenanigans). I can id targets, use the relevant tools to get course, speed, range and AOB. and i can sink targets with modest torpedo spreads. I am currently not even out of 1939 and any escort with an ASDIC system is impossible to shake. Oh and they seem to be able to multiply literally out of thin air!!! (Mid Atlantic, a type B destroyer manages to get visual on me from about 7000yds, no other ship in sight. I start to dive to 150m, start to get depth charged and lo and behold there are 3 destoyers circling me!!!) Sneaking away using silent running at 1-2kts? Tried and failed! Using the scripts to perform pump fakes with decoys? Shakes them for about 5-10 mins and then suddenly there they are again!!! Any combination of speed, course and maneuver is countered by clairvoyant like ASDIC detection. I seem to be unable to get anymore than 5000yds away before some magic elastic band drags them back in my direction. After 8 hours they are clearly out of depth charges but still circle above me with what seems like 20/20 vision through the water waiting for my batteries to run out! Seriously its like there is a 150m flagpole sitting above my boat that they can see and its not even funny anymore. If this is what its like in 1939 I'm screwed if i get any further in the war! This is not an isolated incident, this pattern happens every time I am detected. What can I do?

07-18-18, 07:37 PM	#2
XenonSurf Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany, Italy Posts: 1,721 Downloads: 107 Uploads: 4	Hello H0ggyd0g, In the early stage of war, the British East cost is full of patrol ships going along the coast, and they can hear you even when you are surfaced (if they happen to be close enough). Patrol ships are a meager target anyway and difficult to hit once they detect you, so I advice you to simply avoid them. If they spot you, then before you dive don't forget to send a contact report, this may send in friendly planes to 'eleminate your problem' Your sonarman is quite good if you go below periscope depth, it can hear loud sounds up to 40km. So you can plot a course to avoid patrols and identify good targets long before they are in sight. As for evasion tactics when detected and when I'm submerged: The closer the destroyer is, the less I need to be stealthy, meaning I will go a course at full speed directly towards him and making course change at the last moment, then I change to 30-60° at slow speed while he's still depth-charging elsewhere. I never try to sink a destroyer unless there are 4 or more and 1 happens to be on the opposite side far away from others, in which case if I sink the single one I can probably escape in the opposite direction of the other ones...Also always think about a surface escape first, and when at 3000m away from the next patrol ship, even if he spots you, you can gain time by going flank for a while, crush-diving and radically change direction. These are just rough tactics that can work, but no guarantee, the AI in SH5 is smarter than SH3 I think Last edited by XenonSurf; 07-18-18 at 07:54 PM.

07-18-18, 08:29 PM	#3
vdr1981 Navy Seal Join Date: May 2010 Location: Србија Posts: 6,078 Downloads: 581 Uploads: 13	If one of the destroyers is able to detect your presence with her sensors (even periodically) they will never let you go, why would they? Nearby destroyers can also "communicate" with each other, don't forget that...And be very careful regarding your sound signature. Even the early escorts can hear quite well. Try to convince them that you are already "dead" or that you somehow managed to leave the area... Early escorts in TWoS are nothing special really but they are also not stupid... __________________ Best regards... Vecko The Wolves of Steel v2.2.25_SH5 Expansion Pack_Full The Wolves of Steel v2.2.xx to v2.2.25 - Update PDF Install Instructions How to report an issue If You wish to support my work...

07-18-18, 09:04 PM	#4
Spraki Watch Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 24 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I thought I was the only one, but I did noticed this too. Especially on patrol boats. I could be anywhere, and they'd circle over my head perfectly for hours. And usually, I have the "detected" music playing the whole time. ,_, This is only an issue when I am not detected. Once it does happen, it is like the enemy has a double agent on my boat with a beacon >_>. But oh well. The only real way to survive is not to poke the escorts at all. This does feel like my initial SH2 days, where stealth suddenly went poof and I ended up getting nuked by magic depth charges.

07-18-18, 10:02 PM	#6
XenonSurf Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany, Italy Posts: 1,721 Downloads: 107 Uploads: 4	I remember in SH1 the patrol ships had the tactic to shut down their engines and wait for you on the surface, also to go away from you at some speed and return at max speed For knowing what they do exactly in SH5 one can put all contacts and sonar cones on in the TAI with the Option Editor. I did so a month ago and even then it was a hard time to evade...

07-19-18, 01:21 AM	#7
H0ggyd0g Nub Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 3 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the replies guys. I'm guessing the best defence as always is to avoid being detected at all! The thing about the escorts communicating sounds right. As one or two of them do DC runs there always seems to be at least one standing off almost standing still. Guess he is listening and then redirecting the other boats. In regards to my noise signature I have two questions. 1. Is the thermocline modelled in SH5 and if so at what depth would I find it at in various areas? 2. Could minor damage to my boat cause extra noise?

07-23-18, 01:21 PM	#9
KirinFrost Helmsman Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 109 Downloads: 73 Uploads: 0	just go as deep as you can and move at most 1knot per hr lol although i dont use WOS regularly but this tactic generally seem to work alternatively just stay still and only surface for oxygen at night before going back down there were a couple of times whereby i surfaced and sailed away from destroyers at night at full speed though....

07-24-18, 03:24 AM	#10
XenonSurf Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany, Italy Posts: 1,721 Downloads: 107 Uploads: 4	Oh and: I think all SH games have a weird behavior: Avoid going at high TC if you hide, if you go x16 or x32 you are fine, but go higher and destroyers will 'magically' detect you and comming towards you from nowhere... Happens mainly if you are damaged already. In SH1, SH3 this applies. In SH5 I don't know, I haven't tested it fully yet.

06-07-19, 04:23 PM	#14
jonny_bass26 Sailor man Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 48 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	One thing I've found - don't know if it'll be of any help to anyone, but still - is the importance of "silent running". Even if you're crawling along at 1kt (or even stopped) at 240m, with no reloading or damage or anything going on...if you haven't pressed that pesky Z key (by default), you might as well have a brass band on board, piped up to any and all nearby escorts. For all I know, that's what they're doing...unless you specifically tell them not to.