[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by nimitstexan

First, I am for the most part very impressed with RFB 1.28,

However, a couple of changes I consider to be "backwards" steps in terms of realism, namely lowering AAA engagement ranges to 600 and reducing the ability of the AI controlled sonarmen (my theory being, in SHIV I am playing as a sub captain, not a AAA gunner or hydrophone operator; while I should be able to man those stations compentantly in an emergency or as a "diversion", in general my job is to con the ship while depending on the expertise of my crew in their various jobs.) Anyway, long story short, what changes do I need to make to increase AAA engagement ranges to realistic distances and improve hydrophone operators to their original skill level?

Also, is JP Ship Dimension Fix 1.2b included and/or does it work (or is it even necessary) with RFB?

The AAA engagement range forces you to behave realistically when confronted with planes - crash dive. Unless stuck in shallows, you should never be duking it out with planes. If you are stuck in shallows duking it out, you should be screwed more or less.

I was not aware of the AI sonarman's capability being reduced.

[CaptainCox]

@Beery. does all the torps go dud/misfire also late 43 and onward? I am running a career in 43 and i had like 6 duds/1 early out of 9 fired. Maybe it has been discussed here earlier, but this gigantic thread is just to big to sift through. I thought that "On July 24, 1943, he ordered his submarines to deactivate the Mark VI magnetic influence detonators and fire for contact hits only." etc etc

http://www.military.com/Content/More...file=PRtorpedo

Or is there another reason for this in RFB? I mean, sure, you are more on edge now but, seems an awful lot of duds...at least late 43.

[MudMarine]

Beery,
Please consider the following to RFB Mod.

1) Revived Top-Side commands (on Num-Lock) by Blightlighting
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115743

This mainly effects surface gunnery stations

2) Free sight for sonarman by latemail
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114094

Frees up a view of the sonar station with that big note.

3) 360 DBP for SH4 v1.2 and v1.3
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108555

4) Slide-out Recognition Manual Stand Alone Version by Probex
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112944

even better if this closed and opened to the last page opened.

5) Custom Captain's Log Entries
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113536

You can customise your log entries and make it read like a captain's log.

6) RetroNavMapTools - Jiims NavMapTools - Aces Colored Menu Bar http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109170

Those Nav tools just take up to much space on the map. This allows for drop down menue buttons. This is only the Nav map, the modder has not been able to mod the combat plot map.

7) Course indicator mod for Compass. This replaces the dang triangle with a line. I would also like to see this gaged increase by 50%. I were bifocals and see my bearings and heading is real hard. I believe there is an existing mod that replaces that triangle with a line.

With that said and done back ta learning how to fire those dang torpedoes in practice. Bought a 17 by 23 inch dry eraser board. With fine tip sharpie drew bearing circle with 4 divissions of range. Inside cirlcle "0" south like in SACF ( It-Was) and out side "0" North. Thwe main reason for the manual plot board helps me get to grips with wahtis acutually going on. For some odd reason I get a type of vertigo with direction in the boat. So for awhile I will be doing a lot of pausing until I can master manual TDC without it.

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCox

@Beery. does all the torps go dud/misfire also late 43 and onward? I am running a career in 43 and i had like 6 duds/1 early out of 9 fired. Maybe it has been discussed here earlier, but this gigantic thread is just to big to sift through. I thought that "On July 24, 1943, he ordered his submarines to deactivate the Mark VI magnetic influence detonators and fire for contact hits only." etc etc

http://www.military.com/Content/More...file=PRtorpedo

Or is there another reason for this in RFB? I mean, sure, you are more on edge now but, seems an awful lot of duds...at least late 43.

Can't remember where I read it, but I thought the torpedo issue wasn't really ironed out until september of 1943. Just deactivating the mag detonator wouldn't fix the bad contact pins.

[tedhealy]

http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...998_4_56.shtml

Further testing revealed the trouble: The spring-driven firing pin, which moved at right angles to the axis of the torpedo, was being squeezed by the compression of other parts of the warhead and couldn’t overcome the friction caused by a solid, head-on hit. Within days several solutions were found. The simplest was to pare down the weight of the pin to reduce the friction on its guide studs. The Navy lost no time in putting this finding into practice, and on September 30, 1943, the Barb left Pearl Harbor carrying 20 torpedoes, the first ones to have modified firing pins in their Mark 6 exploders.

[tedhealy]

Some great quotes from that article

http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...998_4_56.shtml

Scott fired all four stern tubes from 880 yards at the leading escort carrier and then almost immediately fired all six bow tubes at the larger carrier, just 650 yards away. Sonar reported four thundering explosions from the first salvo and a few minutes later three explosions from the second. The Tunny sank six Japanese vessels during World War II—but none of them on .the night of April 9. The explosions the crew heard did only minor damage, for the sub’s Mark 14 torpedoes had all gone off before they hit the ships they were aimed at.

10 fish fired, all bad.

Maintaining the initiative, the Halibut fired three Mark 14 torpedoes from 1,900 yards. Galantin watched through his periscope as the torpedoes ran right up to the destroyer without detonating. He waited, then fired three more torpedoes down the throat of the charging vessel. They also refused to detonate, and the Halibut was forced to go deep to evade the destroyer. Six duds for six fired

6 fired, all bad.

The earliest problem to crop up, in the very first days after Pearl Harbor, was unreliable depth control. This could be a severe handicap. For example, in December 1941 the Sargo, under Lt. Comdr. Tyrrell D. Jacobs, fired 13 torpedoes for zero hits. Other subs had results nearly as poor.

Of course who knows if these were on target, but still torpedoes were extremely unreliable.

The Scamp, on the first attack of her first war patrol, in March 1943, saw all three torpedoes detonate early. Two of her next six did the same. Submariners were hearing explosions, even seeing what appeared to be solid hits, but the target ships steamed on as if nothing had happened.

5 of 9 premature, plus some looked like hits, but the target just kept on going.

In July 1943 the Tinosa ran up against the last major problem to plague the Mark 14 torpedo and Mark 6 exploder. Patrolling west of Truk, Lt. Comdr. Lawrence R. Daspit sighted Japan’s largest oil tanker, the 19,262-ton Tonan Maru No. 3, without an escort. Quickly swinging into attack position, Daspit and his crew fired a spread of four torpedoes at an oblique angle from a range of 4,000 yards—not ideal, but the best position the submerged Tinosa could maneuver into. She was rewarded with two solid hits that did little damage. Tonan Maru No. 3 continued on her way and Daspit fired two more torpedoes. They hit and exploded, causing the ship to stop dead and start to settle slowly by the stern.

The tanker was dead in the water with not another vessel in sight. Deck guns on the disabled vessel kept the Tinosa underwater but couldn’t prevent Daspit from maneuvering into ideal attack position. Just 875 yards from the immobilized tanker, Daspit fired a single torpedo to finish her off. There was no explosion, but Daspit, at the periscope, saw a splash where the torpedo should have hit, just as sonar stopped registering the sound of the torpedo’s propellers. The Tinosa fired two more torpedoes. They also refused to detonate.


The first six shots, fired at extreme range and less than ideal angles, had resulted in two solid explosions and a tanker dead in the water. Then three more, at an ideal angle and range, had yielded nothing. The Tinosa had seven torpedoes left. Over the next hour and a half, six of them were removed and checked carefully, but when they were fired, the result was always the same: another dud. With one torpedo left, the Tinosa withdrew and headed to Pearl Harbor. The reaction of Tonan Maru No. 3’s crew was not recorded, but one can imagine their relief when the damaged ship was towed into Truk lagoon.

An interesting read.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by CaptainCox

@Beery. does all the torps go dud/misfire also late 43 and onward? I am running a career in 43 and i had like 6 duds/1 early out of 9 fired. Maybe it has been discussed here earlier, but this gigantic thread is just to big to sift through. I thought that "On July 24, 1943, he ordered his submarines to deactivate the Mark VI magnetic influence detonators and fire for contact hits only." etc etc

http://www.military.com/Content/More...file=PRtorpedo

Or is there another reason for this in RFB? I mean, sure, you are more on edge now but, seems an awful lot of duds...at least late 43.

The mod only changes the data for torpedoes before July 1943. After that the stock SH4 settings take over - unless there's a bug in SH4 that prevents this changeover from happening. Given the generally awful state of the game I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case, but if so there's not much we'll be able to do about it.

[LukeFF]

Beery, another question for you (on top of all my others, lol):

You say in the readme file that the "No map contact update" box should be left unchecked on the hardest difficulty settings. While I think it's totally realistic to believe contacts spotted by the watch crew would be plotted on the charts, don't you think it leans a little too much into the un-realism arena to have the movement of these contacts simultaneously tracked moving across the map? Seen this way, all I would have to do when hunting a convoy is go to the charts to see whether or not a warship is moving in towards me, instead of looking around with my own eyes.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Beery, another question for you (on top of all my others, lol):

You say in the readme file that the "No map contact update" box should be left unchecked on the hardest difficulty settings. While I think it's totally realistic to believe contacts spotted by the watch crew would be plotted on the charts, don't you think it leans a little too much into the un-realism arena to have the movement of these contacts simultaneously tracked moving across the map? Seen this way, all I would have to do when hunting a convoy is go to the charts to see whether or not a warship is moving in towards me, instead of looking around with my own eyes.

With the map contacts reduced in RFB you only get very basic info on the map, and only when the sub is surfaced or has its periscope raised. This simulates your subordinates calling out bearings and ranges to ships and plotting their movements on the map for you. Once you're submerged you only get bearing lines from the hydrophone guy and a very vague idea of the distance to the contact. RFB's map contacts are done in the same way that RUb's were, so it's a lot different from the info you get with the standard game's map contacts. So, in short, the answer is that, yes, you do get a bit more precise info than a real commander would have, but with the limitations of SH4 it's impossible to get it exactly right, and if you switch map contacts off altogether you're getting a LOT less info than real sub commanders had. I believe RFB's system of map contacts is the closest to true realism that it's possible to get with SH4.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Is there any way we can have a "close torpedo tube" button to go alongside the "open torpedo tube" button?

There is, but I'm hard-pressed to figure out what other button to lose in order to do it. The TDT and periscope toolbars are already full for those of us playing at lowere screen resolutions. I'd like to include it but I felt the other toolbar buttons were all just a little more important since the torp doors automatically close as soon as a torpedo is fired, so the only time you need to manually close a door is if you change your mind about firing a torpedo.

For the anti-aircraft guns, it's always irked me that it shows how many rounds are left in the current magazine. The WWII FPS Red Orchestra has this nice feature where it shows you how many mags/clips you have left, but it doesn't tell you how many rounds are currently loaded in your weapon. Is there any way we can replicate this with the deck gun and AA guns? (i.e., show how many rounds are left on board the sub but not show how many rounds are currently loaded in the weapon)

I'm not sure. I did something like this for the hull integrity in RUb but I'm not sure if this would be a similar process.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by panthercules

..It seems like there was an awful lot of work being done on the radar mods (most of which was way over my head) - did none of them ever figure out how to make the SD radar work while still only spotting planes and not ships?

Most of that radar discussion was way over my head too. I don't think anyone ever found a perfect solution, but I got very confused by the end of that thread, so I may be wrong.

Oh - almost forgot to mention - AWESOME job on this latest RFB, as usual

Thanks.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Beery, I'm having a problem with some of the new sonar command buttons. I loaded up the torpedo training mission and told the sonarman to follow the nearest warship contact, which in this case would be the Mogami Class CA. However, all he tells me is "no sound contact on bearing xxx!" A similiar problem exists for me with the "follow nearest contact command." Is this a known issue, or is something wrong on my end?

I've noticed that too. The game sometimes seems not to recognise friendly ships as sound contacts, and when the training mission is set (December 1st 1941) Japan is still a friendly nation, so the target ship is not recognised by the hydrophone guy. Then again it could just be a weird bug affecting all ships - I've sometimes had hostile ships not show up on hydrophones even when they're chugging away within a few hundred yards.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by oiler

Isn't deck gun undepowered? I fired all my AP/HE ammo to one modern composite merchant ship. About 75% hits almost everywhere maybe a little bit more under water line. I didn't sunk her -moreover she gone away from me with no damage! and another question is: why isn't deploy decoys in RFB?

It was a lot more difficult than it might seem to sink a ship with a deck gun. Basically you have to get your hits EXACTLY on the waterline to cause severe problems: a bit above the waterline and (unless you hit something very vital) there's no effect except an extra porthole and a lot of messed-up cargo; a bit below the waterline and the effect of the shell hitting the water reduces the shell's effectiveness so much that it bounces harmlessly off the hull.

As for decoys, I removed them based on the premise that US subs carried no official decoys in WW2. However, I've since found out that unofficial methods were used routinely and that late in the war some boats were equipped with decoys at least on a trial basis. I need to do more research on this to find out how ubiquitous the unofficial methods were and how useful the late-war decoys were.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by nimitstexan

a couple of changes I consider to be "backwards" steps in terms of realism, namely lowering AAA engagement ranges to 600 and reducing the ability of the AI controlled sonarmen...

AAA range was reduced to 600 metres because that was considered (by the German Ubootwaffe) the effective range of submarine AAA guns in WW2. It also mitigates SH4's awfully overpowered anti-aircraft guns and the poorly-modelled aircraft damage models. I urge players to try to work with RFB's anti-aircraft guns because increasing their effectiveness beyond RFB's settings gives very unrealistic results. If anything, shooting down aircraft in RFB is still easier than it was in real life.

As for reducing the ability of AI sonarmen - there is no such change in RFB. I think what you may be referring to is the 'reduced contacts' mod which reduces radio contact reports to 20% of their standard SH4 values. This has nothing to do with sonar operators - it's a reduction of radio reports of shipping, making them more realistically sparse. Your sonar operator still works at full efficiency.

Also, is JP Ship Dimension Fix 1.2b included and/or does it work (or is it even necessary) with RFB?

I believe that the fix is unnecessary as ship captains in WW2 often extended or reduced their mast heights in order to throw off the aim of subs in case of attack.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by czACha

Please work under crosshair lines in both scopes. It is very hard to recognize them in dark background.

You'd have to talk to the folks who make the BetterScopes mod about that. RFB is a compilation mod, so much of it is not my work. I try to keep up with what goes into it as much as possible, but some stuff is beyond my ken, and this is one of those things.

Underpowered guns are not trouble for me at all but it is not very realistic to sink fishing boats sooner by 20cal antiaircraft guns than by 105 mm cannon after sparing almost 10 missiles. I like very much this long reloading time but few points more to the 105 mm efficiency couldn’t make anything bad. Instead, anyone who is trying to sing merchant by artillery fire instead by torpedo are not interested with reality. Records show that only few ships were sunk by cannons.

In the Pacific a lot of small ships were sunk by 3", 4" and 5" deck guns and by machinegun fire. It's different than the Atlantic where deck guns were rarely used. But the main problem (in game terms) is that the machineguns have to be balanced so that they're effective against aircraft and small boats and ineffective against larger ships. I've toned down the 50 caliber machinegun so that it can't sink escorts but if I do more I'd have to start messing with aircraft damage models and some of that stuff is hard-coded, so we'd get a situation where some aircraft would become indestructible if I made machineguns as ineffective against ships as they truly were in real life. Alternatively I could mess with ship DMs to make them more resistant to machinegun fire, but then I'd have to boost the deck guns and it could lead to all sorts of problems with torpedoes not working, etc. It's a Catch-22. Either way, what we have now is as good a balance as I can get without spending weeks rewriting the game's code with respect to gunnery effectiveness and damage models. There are some anomalies when it comes to smaller boats, but those targets would be at the bottom of the sea within a few minutes whether they got there in the game by 20mm machineguns or 3" shells, so the result would be the same in reality as it is in the game. In reality WW2 US subs would open up with every gun they had on board when trying to sink small boats and fishing vessels with gunfire, and if we do this in the game the results are fairly accurate.