escort AI: a user's guide

Bilge_Rat · 03-05-10, 07:01 AM

There have been many threads on the braindead AI. However, the enemy AI in SH5 works the same as in SH3/4, namely it will ignore you until it detects you, at which time it will search/attack until it has lost contact with your boat for a specified amount of time.

One interesting tweak in SH5 is the fact that we can now see the AI's detection range when you use map updates "on". For example, here we can see how your own boat's speed affects the detection range:

1. 1 knot

2. 4 knots

the light yellow cones represents the passive detection range and the red cones, the active detection range (i.e. ASDIC).

As an experiment I drove my boat at 4 knots toward the escorts to see if they detected me:

as soon as I enter the yellow cone, the escort takes an interest:

As soon as I enter the red cone, the escort now alerted to my presence starts to ping me. The darker yellow circles which now appear is the visual detection range ( I also left my periscope up). Notice also how 2 escorts are peeling off from the main group and heading straight for my boat:

now a 3rd escort from the main group is turning south:

it might be time to leave:

now lets try this again, this time going dead slow, periscope down. Notice this time how small the yellow cone is showing that I have to be very close before the escort hears my boat:

here I am in the active cone, but since I have not been detected, there is no reason for the escort to ping me:

past the escort screen and on my way to the juicy targets:

Conclusion: the escort AI works as it should, even though some players appear to find it too easy. However, the good news is that it appears fairly easy to tweak the variables to create an AI which will find, track and kill you everytime if that is what you want...

kapitan_zur_see · 03-05-10, 07:04 AM

comprehensive and good news
thanks

elanaiba · 03-05-10, 07:09 AM

There was no "dumbing down of AI to make it easier for casual players".

And the AI is really not the same, it now goes through scripts, tries to apply some tactics (you may see something interesting from time to time).

Bilge_Rat · 03-05-10, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

There was no "dumbing down of AI to make it easier for casual players".

And the AI is really not the same, it now goes through scripts, tries to apply some tactics (you may see something interesting from time to time).

I certainly did not mean that in a pejorative way and have amended my post to be clearer. I am only trying to figure out why so many players are complaining about not being deteced by the AI. From what I can see, the AI works as designed.

Since you are here, elanaiba, could you comment on the improvements to the AI in SH5 compared to SH3/4?

Dowly · 03-05-10, 07:25 AM

Also, when on surface and you see that grey circle that represents from how far the escort/merchant is able to see you can be affected by turning smaller silhoutte against the merchant (i.e. bow or aft towards the enemy).

I'm in a bit of hurry so cant start the game and go take a screenshot, so enjoy my 1337 photoshop skilz!!!11!!

Night and different stages of damage to the enemy affects the visual detection range aswell.

Decoman · 03-05-10, 07:36 AM

Did I understand this correctly, that the more quiet your uboat runs, the less range the AI ships have when using ASDIC?

If this is so, isn't that abit unrealistic? I would expect the ASDIC range to be a fixed range. Having said that, I am no expert in this subject matter.

Edit: Maybe ASDIC range is depending on current uboat depth?

Dowly · 03-05-10, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decoman

Did I understand this correctly, that the more quiet your uboat runs, the less range the AI ships have when using ASDIC?

If this is so, isn't that abit unrealistic? I would expect the ASDIC range to be a fixed range. Having said that, I am no expert in this subject matter.

ASDIC range is fixed, it doesn't get smaller or larger. It is the passive hydrophone sweep range that get's smaller and larger.

skwasjer · 03-05-10, 07:40 AM

That is just totally cool. I like it...

sergei · 03-05-10, 08:08 AM

Good post Bilge Rat.

elanaiba · 03-05-10, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

ASDIC range is fixed, it doesn't get smaller or larger. It is the passive hydrophone sweep range that get's smaller and larger.

ASDIC range is not fixed, its dependent on the speed of the platform (destroyer). Also note early models have a minimum range, dependent on how deep you are. This is harder to see considering that when you go down... you lose visual contact with the DD and its representation on the map.

ASDIC is also dependent on the aspect of the target. Just as with visual, you want to have the smaller section pointed at the guy pinging for you.

Much of what you're seeing is just a visual form of what has always been in Silent Hunter (3-4). If you remember in Silent Service II (or was it SH1?) you would get tips on how far your periscope or broadside can be seen in the current light conditions. SH5 just shows you the same in an easier to understand/use form.

Bilge_Rat: No worries, I just wanted to clarify. I'll get back to you on your question

malkuth74 · 03-05-10, 08:30 AM

The ai behaves funny too. I once had a circle of about 10 destroyers shadow my submerged sub for about 3 days game time... Now I had to surface and I was running at Half speed and they still just shadowed me (can see sonar report from them,but not see them.) Then I would submerge... and still just shadow me like they could magically see me from well over visual range and sonar range.I changed course they changed course. Finally I just went to flank speed... For about 1/2 day slowed back down to half.... Yup you guessed it they caught back up in about 3 hours. LOL....

Finally I went to full speed for about 2 whole days and finally they never caught back up.

The AI is BROKEN.

And your missing some key features about the AI I thinks. Your right about what your saying right now.. But the AI in SHIV and SHV would go and investigate an attack. They fail to do this, which in turn they fail to ever get you into sonar range to start up there interest as you say.

And with the odd behavior that I just mentioned up top... Something is screwy with the AI. Not even in detection range but yet they can shadow you for a long time, but don't attack. LOL..... Funny stuff. I know what your trying to do but the DEVS need to fix it... Don't try to tell them its ok... Its not ok its broke.

toby66 · 03-05-10, 09:02 AM

Absolutly great explanation, showing that the base for an intelligent AI is certainly there. Gives me confidence in SHV and as soon as I finished my exams next week, I'll buy the game via Steam.

Btw, seems like the AI is already getting tweaked:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163291

jlederer · 03-05-10, 09:27 AM

Really appreciate seeing that analysis. It's very good to see that changing speed, aspect ratio, and silent running have the sort of impact they should. I wonder if sea state has an impact (does passive sonar work poorly in stormy conditions) and what impact depth / thermal layer has?

Bilge_Rat · 03-05-10, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlederer

Really appreciate seeing that analysis. It's very good to see that changing speed, aspect ratio, and silent running have the sort of impact they should. I wonder if sea state has an impact (does passive sonar work poorly in stormy conditions) and what impact depth / thermal layer has?

All those factors have an impact. Look here for a more in depth discussion of the technical aspects of the AI:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163089

janh · 03-05-10, 11:33 AM

I very much appreciate the lead developer posting here and giving some substantial information on the game. As the past weeks have shown, lack of information leads to speculation and, thus, an incomplete or skewed picture. Also many previews can't do that justice, which reviewer would spent month playing to figure out the details for a quick article?
But you can't blame people, it has been human nature for centuries to speculate and fill knowledge gaps.

Particularly in this forum with all the sub-simulation cracks waiting for a release with the potential to finally replaced SHIII+GWX or SHIV+OM, it would have been much better if the developers had released more information about the game beforehand. Scripting, damage models, AI, physics, the way sound-propagation in the water is approximated etc. Many thinks could still be highlighted by the developers, and could change the way the community views this release.

Presently, the (rumored?) potential of the game is still well hidden for most of the people -- where should that information come from anyway?

03-05-10, 07:01 AM	#1
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	escort AI: a user's guide There have been many threads on the braindead AI. However, the enemy AI in SH5 works the same as in SH3/4, namely it will ignore you until it detects you, at which time it will search/attack until it has lost contact with your boat for a specified amount of time. One interesting tweak in SH5 is the fact that we can now see the AI's detection range when you use map updates "on". For example, here we can see how your own boat's speed affects the detection range: 1. 1 knot 2. 4 knots the light yellow cones represents the passive detection range and the red cones, the active detection range (i.e. ASDIC). As an experiment I drove my boat at 4 knots toward the escorts to see if they detected me: as soon as I enter the yellow cone, the escort takes an interest: As soon as I enter the red cone, the escort now alerted to my presence starts to ping me. The darker yellow circles which now appear is the visual detection range ( I also left my periscope up). Notice also how 2 escorts are peeling off from the main group and heading straight for my boat: now a 3rd escort from the main group is turning south: it might be time to leave: now lets try this again, this time going dead slow, periscope down. Notice this time how small the yellow cone is showing that I have to be very close before the escort hears my boat: here I am in the active cone, but since I have not been detected, there is no reason for the escort to ping me: past the escort screen and on my way to the juicy targets: Conclusion: the escort AI works as it should, even though some players appear to find it too easy. However, the good news is that it appears fairly easy to tweak the variables to create an AI which will find, track and kill you everytime if that is what you want... __________________ Last edited by Bilge_Rat; 03-05-10 at 09:09 AM. Reason: duplicate screenshot

03-05-10, 07:04 AM	#2
kapitan_zur_see Commodore Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: France Posts: 614 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 0	comprehensive and good news thanks __________________

03-05-10, 07:09 AM	#3
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	There was no "dumbing down of AI to make it easier for casual players". And the AI is really not the same, it now goes through scripts, tries to apply some tactics (you may see something interesting from time to time). __________________ With strength I burn...

03-05-10, 07:40 AM	#8
skwasjer The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,549 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 3	That is just totally cool. I like it... __________________ S3D - Silent 3ditor (v0.9.9) - S3D homepage - Open sourced S3D file parser API's - SUBSIM thread SH5 mods: Speech Recognition for SH5 \| Digital UI Clock Tutorials: [TEC] Import/export 3D models to/from game using S3D [TEC] How to work with the model viewer in S3D - VIDEO

03-05-10, 08:30 AM	#11
malkuth74 Sonar Guy Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 377 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	The ai behaves funny too. I once had a circle of about 10 destroyers shadow my submerged sub for about 3 days game time... Now I had to surface and I was running at Half speed and they still just shadowed me (can see sonar report from them,but not see them.) Then I would submerge... and still just shadow me like they could magically see me from well over visual range and sonar range.I changed course they changed course. Finally I just went to flank speed... For about 1/2 day slowed back down to half.... Yup you guessed it they caught back up in about 3 hours. LOL.... Finally I went to full speed for about 2 whole days and finally they never caught back up. The AI is BROKEN. And your missing some key features about the AI I thinks. Your right about what your saying right now.. But the AI in SHIV and SHV would go and investigate an attack. They fail to do this, which in turn they fail to ever get you into sonar range to start up there interest as you say. And with the odd behavior that I just mentioned up top... Something is screwy with the AI. Not even in detection range but yet they can shadow you for a long time, but don't attack. LOL..... Funny stuff. I know what your trying to do but the DEVS need to fix it... Don't try to tell them its ok... Its not ok its broke. __________________

03-05-10, 07:25 AM	#5
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,052 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Also, when on surface and you see that grey circle that represents from how far the escort/merchant is able to see you can be affected by turning smaller silhoutte against the merchant (i.e. bow or aft towards the enemy). I'm in a bit of hurry so cant start the game and go take a screenshot, so enjoy my 1337 photoshop skilz!!!11!! Night and different stages of damage to the enemy affects the visual detection range aswell.

03-05-10, 07:36 AM	#6
Decoman Frogman Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 306 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Did I understand this correctly, that the more quiet your uboat runs, the less range the AI ships have when using ASDIC? If this is so, isn't that abit unrealistic? I would expect the ASDIC range to be a fixed range. Having said that, I am no expert in this subject matter. Edit: Maybe ASDIC range is depending on current uboat depth?

03-05-10, 08:08 AM	#9
sergei Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 1,788 Downloads: 405 Uploads: 29	Good post Bilge Rat.

03-05-10, 09:02 AM	#12
toby66 A-ganger Join Date: May 2005 Location: navis longa Posts: 73 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	Absolutly great explanation, showing that the base for an intelligent AI is certainly there. Gives me confidence in SHV and as soon as I finished my exams next week, I'll buy the game via Steam. Btw, seems like the AI is already getting tweaked: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163291 __________________

03-05-10, 09:27 AM	#13
jlederer Bosun Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 63 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	Thanks Really appreciate seeing that analysis. It's very good to see that changing speed, aspect ratio, and silent running have the sort of impact they should. I wonder if sea state has an impact (does passive sonar work poorly in stormy conditions) and what impact depth / thermal layer has?

03-05-10, 11:33 AM	#15
janh Stinking drunk in Trinidad Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 349 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	facts... I very much appreciate the lead developer posting here and giving some substantial information on the game. As the past weeks have shown, lack of information leads to speculation and, thus, an incomplete or skewed picture. Also many previews can't do that justice, which reviewer would spent month playing to figure out the details for a quick article? But you can't blame people, it has been human nature for centuries to speculate and fill knowledge gaps. Particularly in this forum with all the sub-simulation cracks waiting for a release with the potential to finally replaced SHIII+GWX or SHIV+OM, it would have been much better if the developers had released more information about the game beforehand. Scripting, damage models, AI, physics, the way sound-propagation in the water is approximated etc. Many thinks could still be highlighted by the developers, and could change the way the community views this release. Presently, the (rumored?) potential of the game is still well hidden for most of the people -- where should that information come from anyway?