Who Started World War II?

[Fahnenbohn]

CONTENTS

1. The Overwhelming English Guilt. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=595

2. A crime against peace, a crime against France. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=641

3. The share of responsability of the USA. I don't have enough documentation for now to be precise enough.

Threaty of Versailles was unfair :

4. The real causes of the First World War ... WIP *

5. How the Pan-slavics caused war in July 1914 ? ... WIP *


* This work won't be able to be published, because this thread is going to be closed in a few days by the moderators for unknown reason.

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How did this thread start ?

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OLD

Originally Posted by texelbo

khm, Perfide Albion...
Many years ago I was inspired same idea - cured Mers-el-Kebir, Syria campaign of 1941, Madagaskar and Djibouti, Torch landing...

Yeah, the French had really an indecisive attitude during the war. Unfortunately, they didn't understand at all that Hitler didn't want to have a revenge against France, but an united and powerful Europe. And the English were the ennemies of this alliance, as they constantly show during the actions they led against the French fleet, and other facts. England was not the ally of France, but its rival.

[texelbo]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

England was not the ally of France, but its rival.

For sure - 'no permanent ally, but permanent interests'.

We are, looking from east, considerd Hitler as English puppet, as hummer for destroing of remains of belle epoque in continental Europe. They had fault with Trotsky in USSR in 1927, but prompt had switch to 'plan B'.
This tricking gues from Island always succeed play off one their competitors against another. With catastrophic results for those both and profit to UK. It happened at 1870, 1914, 1939, 1941.
Or another tool - the 'revolutions' - at 1789, 1848, 1870, 1905, 1917, 1918.
Doesn't matter where it were - France, Germany or Russia.

It why I like sink british ships.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by texelbo

It why I like sink british ships.

What I like, and I'm saying it now, before being banned for the second time, is that the British have been humiliated three times during the war by the Germans (the "Nazis" !) : first at Dunkerque where they had a humiliating retreat, second during Rheinübung where their most prestigious battleship was sunk by the Bismarck, and third during Cerberus Operation when 3 german battleships sailed through the Channel !!!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Sorry, you don't give me the right to answer to these questions, beause this is ... HATE ! (lol !) And then , I get banned ... . The war is still continuing ...

You don't get banned or anything else for answering questions and having debates. What we don't like is someone taking the subject off-topic and bringing up his own personal political beliefs in a game thread. In the future please keep that kind of comment to General Topics. For now, please answer the questions.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

What I like, and I'm saying it now...

So you refuse to answer what you started, but you want to continue with your personal diatribe. You can't have it both ways. I promise that if you answer Jim's questions and engage in an honest debate, no harm will come to you. On the other hand if you continue with your off-topic diatribe but refuse to answer the questions, you will indeed find the trouble you seem to be looking for.

One or the other. Your choice.

[Fahnenbohn]

@ Sailor Steve : you got a PM.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

What I like, and I'm saying it now, before being banned for the second time, is that the British have been humiliated three times during the war by the Germans (the "Nazis" !) : first at Dunkerque where they had a humiliating retreat, second during Rheinübung where their most prestigious battleship was sunk by the Bismarck, and third during Cerberus Operation when 3 german battleships sailed through the Channel !!!

I tell you what.....you answer the original four questions then after that how about you create a separate thread in GT focussing on what you consider to be 'hum iliating experiences' between both sides?

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

1) Which country invaded France?
2) Which country was it that sent the BEF to support France?
3) Which country gave exile/sanctuary to the Free French and its forces?
4) Which country played a major part in freeing France of occupation from her oppressors?

1/2 : Germany made a counter-attack against the Anglo-French coalition.
3/4 : Free French was completely illegal, since the official french government signed an armistice with Germany.

But the good questions are :

1. Which country pushed Poland to refuse any negotiations with Germany about the scandalous Danzig corridor ?
2. Which country first declared war on Germany ?

[Wreford-Brown]

Britain delivered its declaration of war 15 mins before France, but both countries gave a deadline for the withdrawal of German troops from Poland the following day. Both declarations were conditional.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

3/4 : Free French was completely illegal, since the official french government signed an armistice with Germany.

So you don't want to be independent? You'd much rather be a puppet to a genocidal government in Berlin that valued itself over it's own people, and cared even less about you?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Yeah, the French had really an indecisive attitude during the war. Unfortunately, they didn't understand at all that Hitler didn't want to have a revenge against France, but an united and powerful Europe. And the English were the ennemies of this alliance, as they constantly show during the actions they led against the French fleet, and other facts. England was not the ally of France, but its rival.

That begs four questions....

1) Which country invaded France?
2) Which country was it that sent the BEF to support France?
3) Which country gave exile/sanctuary to the Free French and its forces?
4) Which country played a major part in freeing France of occupation from her oppressors?

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

That begs four questions....

1) Which country invaded France?
2) Which country was it that sent the BEF to support France?
3) Which country gave exile/sanctuary to the Free French and its forces?
4) Which country played a major part in freeing France of occupation from her oppressors?

Sorry, you don't give me the right to answer to these questions, beause this is ... HATE ! (lol !) And then , I get banned ... . The war is still continuing ...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I want to see if it's possible to have a civil discussion about this.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Yes, exactly. Me too !

And so we shall.

See the part in bold. That piece in paticular drew my attention.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Yeah, the French had really an indecisive attitude during the war. Unfortunately, they didn't understand at all that Hitler didn't want to have a revenge against France, but an united and powerful Europe. And the English were the ennemies of this alliance, as they constantly show during the actions they led against the French fleet, and other facts. England was not the ally of France, but its rival.

To which I have asked the following.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

That begs four questions....

1) Which country invaded France?
2) Which country was it that sent the BEF to support France?
3) Which country gave exile/sanctuary to the Free French and its forces?
4) Which country played a major part in freeing France of occupation from her oppressors?

After numerous attempts at avoiding the fundamental questions you eventually answered.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

1/2 : Germany made a counter-attack against the Anglo-French coalition.
3/4 : Free French was completely illegal, since the official french government signed an armistice with Germany.

But the good questions are :

1. Which country pushed Poland to refuse any negotiations with Germany about the scandalous Danzig corridor ?
2. Which country first declared war on Germany ?

The actual definitive answers are:

1) Germany
2) Great Britain
3) Great Britain
4) Great Britain

Whilst I accept there has been much rivalry and emnity over the centuries between Britain and France those relationships were practically non existant or at the very lowest level at the time in question.

Sending an armed force to assist then give exile and later further military aid and support is hardly the actions of anything but that which only an ally would give in a countries hour of need.

Germany on the other hand sent a military force of invasion to Belgium, Holland and France. Are we to believe this is the actions of a country partaking in a friendly alliance?

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

What I like, and I'm saying it now, before being banned for the second time, is that the British have been humiliated three times during the war by the Germans (the "Nazis" !) : first at Dunkerque where they had a humiliating retreat, second during Rheinübung where their most prestigious battleship was sunk by the Bismarck, and third during Cerberus Operation when 3 german battleships sailed through the Channel !!!

Now you post the above and despite categoric assurances from Steve and now me publicly, there will be nobody getting banned provided forum rules are adhered to (what has happened previously and for what justification has already been adequately explained privately) you make assertions to real-life seriously tragic events which sadly are not uncommon during times of war. You introduce the word 'humiliated' and add a smiley which I am confident will be perceived as pouring scorn/mockery on forum members who lost loved ones on both sides of the conflict. ....My own interpretation can be encapsulated in one word 'Trolling'.

So let us debate your points...

Dunkerque:
Obviously a serious event, one in which Great Britain lost approx. 68,000 troops but surpassed by the fact over 300,000 were evacuated to fight another day.

I'm sure you'll remember the German 6th army were involved but I recall what their fate became eventually (over 91,000 POW's).

Care to remember the fate of the Africa Korps at Cape Bon?

Over 150,000 POW's and nearly one million German lives tragically lost in North Africa.

Rheinübung:

Bismarck, pride of the German Navy sinks HMS Hood on 24th May 1941 then Bismarck is sunk three days later whilst trying to reach a safe haven.

Perhaps we should discuss the Graf Spee, designed to prey on defenceless merchants, comes across two 6" and one 8" gunned cruisers which are hardly a match for 11" guns. What happens? another dash to a safe haven before scuttling herself without so much as a serious attempt at engaging the enemy. Hardly matching the true and ancient traditions of the Royal Navy (Senior Service).

How about Tirpitz....fired her main batteries in anger only once (bombarding Spitzbergen, Sept 43).

I guess you know her fate though....sunk by the RAF whilst holed up in what was thought to be another safe haven. The same RAF who were numerically inferior in numbers to the Luftwaffe by a ratio of 3-4 to one but who overcame all the odds in the Battle of Britain, a time when Britain stood alone against aggression.

The Channel Dash (Operation Cerebus):

Hardly a military victory when all the Germans were attempting was to get their vessels to a place of safety and out of reach of the RAF (for fear they would suffer the same fate as that eventually handed down to Tirpitz).

So what became of thes ships?

Sharnhorst, whilst attempting to attack convoy JW55B, believing it to be almost defenceless against the mighty armament of her is unfortunate to come up against HMS Duke Of York and accompanying cruisers. She is quickly overwhelmed and sunk as a result but at least she put up a fight.

Gneisenau, disarmed on the orders of that military genius Hitler (I'm confident you know the reasoning) and main batteries utilised as shore emplacements.

Prinz Eugen, expended as a target ship for nuclear tests at Bikini Atoll by the United States.

Humiliating? No, extremely tragic in all cases..

I believe I have answered the points you have raised and am happy to continue the debate should you so wish but hope you will maintain a respectful tone and not turn to mockery or undervaluing the efforts of all those from all sides who took part.

I am also of the belief that your opinions are seriously biased and blinkered toward one side of the conflict and looking at some of the responses on this thread (of a few nationalities, German included) it is obvious I am not alone in that thinking.

Much of my response does not only come from my extensive collection of books on the subject as well as the internet but most importantly from my father who was at Dunkirk (inward and outward), within hearing of the Hood/Bismarck exchange, arctic convoy service, last ship to leave Marseille before it fell and D-Day.

I look forward to a respectful and sensible continuation of said debate should you have the inclination.

If you choose the above then stick to factual outcomes and not opinionated bias.

@Oberon....Prior to posting (proofing) I notice further posts have been made so please understand I am commenting on your post three or four up.

Great post matey.

[SS107.9MHz]

*Please either debate the topic or stay out of it*

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, I will say this one more time: The argument arose as to who actually started the war. I've already asked the we stick to that subject and no other. If you have something add to that topic, say so and show your case. If not, please stop making snarky remarks and just stay out of it.

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Okay, I will say this one more time: The argument arose as to who actually started the war. I've already asked the we stick to that subject and no other. If you have something add to that topic, say so and show your case. If not, please stop making snarky remarks and just stay out of it.

Here, here! I've been following this thread this morning and all I see is that these people are not allowing this man to make his points with their slings and arrows coming from all directions.