Who Started World War II?

Fahnenbohn · 01-09-16, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

1) Which country invaded France?
2) Which country was it that sent the BEF to support France?
3) Which country gave exile/sanctuary to the Free French and its forces?
4) Which country played a major part in freeing France of occupation from her oppressors?

1/2 : Germany made a counter-attack against the Anglo-French coalition.
3/4 : Free French was completely illegal, since the official french government signed an armistice with Germany.

But the good questions are :

1. Which country pushed Poland to refuse any negotiations with Germany about the scandalous Danzig corridor ?
2. Which country first declared war on Germany ?

Wreford-Brown · 01-09-16, 03:11 PM

Britain delivered its declaration of war 15 mins before France, but both countries gave a deadline for the withdrawal of German troops from Poland the following day. Both declarations were conditional.

Fahnenbohn · 01-09-16, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wreford-Brown

Britain delivered its declaration of war 15 mins before France, but both countries gave a deadline for the withdrawal of German troops from Poland the following day. Both declarations were conditional.

Yes, but it's symbolic !

Another fact : French people was against the war with Germany. The declaration of war was illegal, the National Assembly's opinion has not even been asked ! A democratie ? lol !

We are always talking about the German officers who tried to assassinate Hitler. This is the French officers who should have had to refuse to obey to the orders, and should have had to make a State coup ! When war was over for France, the members of the government didn't assume their acts, and left the responsibility of the Armistice to a French officer (Petain). He should have understood who was the real ennemy of France, but he was too old, and was still thinking as in 1918 ...

1945 is the end of a free and powerful Europe.

Fahnenbohn · 01-10-16, 05:26 AM

From Hitler's speech, october 6, 1939 :

"I have devoted no less effort to the achievement of an Anglo-German understanding, nay, more than that, of an Anglo-German friendship. At no time and in no place have I ever acted contrary to British interests. Unfortunately I have only too often been forced to guard against instances of British interference in German affairs, even in cases which did not concern Great Britain in the least. I actually considered it as one of my life aims to reconcile these two peoples, not only through mutual understanding but through inner sympathy. The German nation has gladly followed my lead in this respect. If my endeavors have been unsuccessful, it is only because of an animosity on the part of certain British statesmen and journalists, which has deeply affected me personally. They made no secret of the fact that - for reasons which are unfathomable to us - their sole aim was to seize the first opportunity in order to resume the fight with Germany. The fewer reasons of substantial nature these men have for their schemes, the more they attempt to motivate their actions with empty phrases and assertions. But I believe even today that there can only he real peace in Europe and throughout the world if Germany and England come to an understanding. Because of this conviction I have often shown the way to an understanding. If in the end there was not the desired result, it was really not my fault."

and also :

"This I ask : If forty-six million Englishmen claim the right to rule over forty million square kilometers of the earth, it cannot be wrong for eighty-two million Germans to demand the right to live on 800,000 square kilometers, to till their fields and to follow their trades and callings, and if they further demand the restitution of those colonial possessions which formerly were their property, which they had not taken away from anybody by robbery or war but honestly acquired by purchase, exchange and treaties."

Fahnenbohn · 01-10-16, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

No. As I told you privately, you don't get to make your points and then demand the conversation end there. I'm sure that others have counter-points that are just as good, and they get a chance to make them as well.

OK, no problem ! As I told you in PM, I'm honestly searching the truth, and I'm open to the debate.

Sailor Steve · 01-25-16, 11:06 PM

Near the beginning of all this, you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

OK, no problem ! As I told you in PM, I'm honestly searching the truth, and I'm open to the debate.

Everything you've said since then has been the opposite. You have the truth, and every other source is lying. To me this is sounding more and more like every other conspiracy theory I've seen, from governments hiding UFOs to the Kennedy assassination to 9/11. Everything that disagrees with you is propaganda. Only your sources are honest.

If England and France had not declared war, do you really think Hitler would have set Poland free? Things he himself said indicate the opposite. They've been quoted, and you dismissed them.

I also notice you tend to not answer others except to criticize their sources. I pointed out that the Mussolini peace plan was presented after Germany invaded Poland. This makes the claim that Britain and France ignored the offer to be dishonest at best. They had a treaty with Poland, and they honored it. Invading another country and then offering peace is backwards.

All your sources try to hide the bottom line I pointed out long ago. Nobody twisted Hitler's arm and forced him to invade Poland. Documented talks between him and his generals has shown that the invasion was planned weeks before the actual event. It's probable that he expected no resistance from the Allies, just as he got none when he forced Czechoslovakia into submission. Trying to make it look like the other side's fault is diverting attention from the truth. Hitler invaded Poland. That's the long and the short of it.

Catfish · 01-26-16, 03:23 AM

For what it's worth, if he wants to present evidence or unpublished material, why not, go on. Why a time limit? Translating those texts sure takes time. And, does anyone have to be afraid of its contents?

The documents are interesting enough, however all boils down to when those "offers of peace" from Italy or whoever came, and it was pretty useless to propose that after there were troops already in Poland.
And, like the reeducation, you also should not believe all what Hitler said, to make the german people believe in his righteousness to attack Poland, errm defend Germany i meant

"Seit 5:45 wird jetzt zurueck [sic!] geschossen"

Hitler wanted to go for Russia right from the beginning, and just because of that he wanted no peace with Russia. Unless Stalin would have given him some big chunks of land voluntarily, which i somehow .. doubt.

A peacefully united Europe? I assume Hitler did not really want to go to war in the west, but he had strategically only one chance to prevent a two-front war like in WW1, after England declaring war. And there were of course already plans for that, just in case. Like the US having plans for Canada, as we now know.
So it may have been England that made it a worldwide war, out of a locally restricted one like Hitler had tried, alright.

But assuming Hitler wanted peace with Russia, Poland or the jews is "a bit" ridiculous though.

Fahnenbohn · 01-26-16, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Near the beginning of all this, you said :
"OK, no problem ! As I told you in PM, I'm honestly searching the truth, and I'm open to the debate."

Yes, and for now, you have not convinced me. You know, I really would like to be convinced, because this war was so horrible that it would be terrifying that she has been declared for bad reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If England and France had not declared war, do you really think Hitler would have set Poland free ? Things he himself said indicate the opposite. They've been quoted, and you dismissed them.

Then, it was a localized conflict, and both sides would have to talk together to find a solution. But Poland refused that. She said that if Hitler still wanted to talk about Danzig, it would be WAR between them. So, as Hitler wanted to cure this flagrant injustice of Versailles, he had no more the choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I pointed out that the Mussolini peace plan was presented after Germany invaded Poland. This makes the claim that Britain and France ignored the offer to be dishonest at best. They had a treaty with Poland, and they honored it. Invading another country and then offering peace is backwards.

Treaties between France and Poland were null and void in September 1939, as I've clearly demonstrated. France didn't have to help Poland. Moreover, it was pure madness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Documented talks between him and his generals has shown that the invasion was planned weeks before the actual event.

Yes, of course, that's logical. As head of the State, Hitler had to prepare all eventualities. That doesn't mean that he wanted to invade Poland. He was just ready to do it if Poland didn't want to know anything about peaceful proposals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

just as he got none when he forced Czechoslovakia into submission.

Submission ?? Hitler has just allowed various peoples that were composing this artificial state to obtain their independence. Then, he sent his army in Bohemia and Moravia to maintain order.

Skybird · 01-10-16, 07:46 AM

Lesson of this topic: nobody had a right and should have dared to stand up against and resist the Nazi empire. It's all their fault.

Why taking the bait, guys? You know how it smells in here. Use your noses.

Dowly · 01-10-16, 07:51 AM

Cybermat47 · 01-10-16, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Why taking the bait, guys? You know how it smells in here. Use your noses.

Terrible arguments like this guy's are perfect practice for actual debates

Cybermat47 · 01-10-16, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

3/4 : Free French was completely illegal, since the official french government signed an armistice with Germany.

So you don't want to be independent? You'd much rather be a puppet to a genocidal government in Berlin that valued itself over it's own people, and cared even less about you?

Fahnenbohn · 01-10-16, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

a genocidal government

@ Sailor Steve : You see ?

Impossible discussion. This is MAGIC !

Fahnenbohn · 01-10-16, 07:39 AM

From the same speech (see post #12) :

"My chief endeavor, however, has been to rid our relations with France of all trace of ill will and render them tolerable for both nations. I once set forth with the utmost clarity Germany's claims in this domain and have never gone back on that declaration. Return of the Saar territory was one demand which I regarded as an indispensable pre-condition of Franco-German understandings. After France herself had found a just solution of this problem, Germany had no further claims against France. No such claim exists any longer and no such claim shall ever be put forward. That is to say, I have refused even to mention the problem of Alsace-Lorraine not because I was forced to keep silent, but because this matter does not constitute a problem which could ever interfere with Franco-German relations. I accepted the decision made in 1919 and refused to consider ever embarking upon war for the sake of a question which, comparatively speaking, is of slight importance for Germany's vital interests, but which is certainly likely to involve every second generation in a deadly war fear. France realized this. It is impossible for any French statesman to get up and declare I have ever made any demands upon France the fulfillment of which would be incompatible with French honor or French interest. It is, however, true that instead of demands I have always expressed to France my desire to bury forever our ancient enmity and bring together these two nations, both of which have such glorious pasts. Among the German people, I have done my utmost to eradicate the idea of everlasting enmity and to inculcate in its place a respect for the great achievements of the French nation and for its history, just as every German soldier has the greatest respect for the feats of the French Army."

Oberon · 01-10-16, 07:45 AM

Oh Great, another one of 'these' guys. We sure do pick them up.

Besides, WWII technically started in 1937 between Japan and China.

01-09-16, 03:11 PM	#2
Wreford-Brown Sea Lord Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In sight of Stonehenge Posts: 1,750 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 26	Britain delivered its declaration of war 15 mins before France, but both countries gave a deadline for the withdrawal of German troops from Poland the following day. Both declarations were conditional. __________________ All my mods are available at MediaFire: SH3 Mods Other modders SH3 mods SH4 Mods ...you can't please all of the people all of the time...

01-26-16, 03:23 AM	#7
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,800 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	For what it's worth, if he wants to present evidence or unpublished material, why not, go on. Why a time limit? Translating those texts sure takes time. And, does anyone have to be afraid of its contents? The documents are interesting enough, however all boils down to when those "offers of peace" from Italy or whoever came, and it was pretty useless to propose that after there were troops already in Poland. And, like the reeducation, you also should not believe all what Hitler said, to make the german people believe in his righteousness to attack Poland, errm defend Germany i meant "Seit 5:45 wird jetzt zurueck* [sic!] geschossen"* Hitler wanted to go for Russia right from the beginning, and just because of that he wanted no peace with Russia. Unless Stalin would have given him some big chunks of land voluntarily, which i somehow .. doubt. A peacefully united Europe? I assume Hitler did not really want to go to war in the west, but he had strategically only one chance to prevent a two-front war like in WW1, after England declaring war. And there were of course already plans for that, just in case. Like the US having plans for Canada, as we now know. So it may have been England that made it a worldwide war, out of a locally restricted one like Hitler had tried, alright. But assuming Hitler wanted peace with Russia, Poland or the jews is "a bit" ridiculous though. __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 01-26-16 at 06:34 AM.*

01-10-16, 07:46 AM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,707 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Lesson of this topic: nobody had a right and should have dared to stand up against and resist the Nazi empire. It's all their fault. Why taking the bait, guys? You know how it smells in here. Use your noses. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-10-16, 07:39 AM	#14
Fahnenbohn Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: France Posts: 1,072 Downloads: 155 Uploads: 0	From the same speech (see post #12) : "My chief endeavor, however, has been to rid our relations with France of all trace of ill will and render them tolerable for both nations. I once set forth with the utmost clarity Germany's claims in this domain and have never gone back on that declaration. Return of the Saar territory was one demand which I regarded as an indispensable pre-condition of Franco-German understandings. After France herself had found a just solution of this problem, Germany had no further claims against France. No such claim exists any longer and no such claim shall ever be put forward. That is to say, I have refused even to mention the problem of Alsace-Lorraine not because I was forced to keep silent, but because this matter does not constitute a problem which could ever interfere with Franco-German relations. I accepted the decision made in 1919 and refused to consider ever embarking upon war for the sake of a question which, comparatively speaking, is of slight importance for Germany's vital interests, but which is certainly likely to involve every second generation in a deadly war fear. France realized this. It is impossible for any French statesman to get up and declare I have ever made any demands upon France the fulfillment of which would be incompatible with French honor or French interest. It is, however, true that instead of demands I have always expressed to France my desire to bury forever our ancient enmity and bring together these two nations, both of which have such glorious pasts. Among the German people, I have done my utmost to eradicate the idea of everlasting enmity and to inculcate in its place a respect for the great achievements of the French nation and for its history, just as every German soldier has the greatest respect for the feats of the French Army." Last edited by Fahnenbohn; 01-10-16 at 10:35 AM.

01-10-16, 05:26 AM	#4
Fahnenbohn Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: France Posts: 1,072 Downloads: 155 Uploads: 0	From Hitler's speech, october 6, 1939 : "I have devoted no less effort to the achievement of an Anglo-German understanding, nay, more than that, of an Anglo-German friendship. At no time and in no place have I ever acted contrary to British interests. Unfortunately I have only too often been forced to guard against instances of British interference in German affairs, even in cases which did not concern Great Britain in the least. I actually considered it as one of my life aims to reconcile these two peoples, not only through mutual understanding but through inner sympathy. The German nation has gladly followed my lead in this respect. If my endeavors have been unsuccessful, it is only because of an animosity on the part of certain British statesmen and journalists, which has deeply affected me personally. They made no secret of the fact that - for reasons which are unfathomable to us - their sole aim was to seize the first opportunity in order to resume the fight with Germany. The fewer reasons of substantial nature these men have for their schemes, the more they attempt to motivate their actions with empty phrases and assertions. But I believe even today that there can only he real peace in Europe and throughout the world if Germany and England come to an understanding. Because of this conviction I have often shown the way to an understanding. If in the end there was not the desired result, it was really not my fault." and also : "This I ask : If forty-six million Englishmen claim the right to rule over forty million square kilometers of the earth, it cannot be wrong for eighty-two million Germans to demand the right to live on 800,000 square kilometers, to till their fields and to follow their trades and callings, and if they further demand the restitution of those colonial possessions which formerly were their property, which they had not taken away from anybody by robbery or war but honestly acquired by purchase, exchange and treaties."

01-10-16, 07:51 AM	#10
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,055 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0

01-10-16, 07:45 AM	#15
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Oh Great, another one of 'these' guys. We sure do pick them up. Besides, WWII technically started in 1937 between Japan and China.