Brexit ?

[Skybird]

Lets keep the Queen out of this. She's got nothing to do with it.

:)

Or has she? That neon-green appearance might have burnt some neurons if you sat too close to the screen. :D

[Oberon]

Lets keep the Queen out of this. She's got nothing to do with it.

:)

Or has she? That neon-green appearance might have burnt some neurons if you sat too close to the screen. :D

All glory to the hypno-Queen!

[danasan]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3o6MbrTYMfZvVIVSgM/200_s.gif

[Bubblehead1980]

This was truly something epic.Enjoyed watching him put the EU clowns in their place.Wish we had someone to do this to a joint session of US Congress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ewRNSfyiI

[vienna]

I hope everyone is proud of the Brexit campaign heads.
One runs home with the tail between his legs and the other just made a complete fool out of himself in Brussels.
Congratulations UK you scored big time with these two clowns.:yeah:

BTW did nobody ever ask them during the campaign what their actual plan was?:doh:
I mean it's obvious they don't have the foggiest what to do now let alone a well thought out plan to go with even though the Brexit campaign was head to head with Bremain for months so even the dumbest idiot should have seen that there was at least a chance that Brexit would win but that obviously never crossed the Brexit leaders' minds and now they are completely unprepared.:/\\!!
What have you actually been discussing over the last few months in the campaigns????:doh:

What a royal mess!:nope:

This is an object lesson for those here in the US who blindly follow and support a certain GOP candidate who talks big and promises much without even a shred of actual detail or means of accomplishing the promises. Those who choose to blindly follow those sort of "leaders" bring to mind P. T. Barnum who was able to bilk patrons to his museum by putting up a sign saying "This Way To The Egress":

http://www.ptbarnum.org/egress.html

There's an old saying, "There's a sucker born every minute"; with the ensuing chaos of the Brexit in the UK and the chaos surrounding the US Presidential Election, there appears to have been a great number of births in the intervening seconds between those minutes...



<O>

[Catfish]

This was truly something epic.Enjoyed watching him put the EU clowns in their place.Wish we had someone to do this to a joint session of US Congress....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ewRNSfyiI

Nigel can be refreshing, yes. But here? Yawn.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2415544&postcount=992

And he lied: Video evidence has emerged of Nigel Farage saying EU cash should be spent on the National Health Service after Brexit.
The Ukip leader on Friday morning denied having endorsed a pledge to spend Britain’s EU contribution on the NHS just hours after the referendum results came in.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-nhs-350-million-pounds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.html

Maybe we the EU will miss this clown, but i guess not.

[Oberon]

Maybe we will miss this clown, but i guess not.

Why, is Bubbles leaving? :hmmm:

[MGR1]

Found this on Reddit:


This explanation of Brexit has gone viral: (https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/4qkpve/this_explanation_of_brexit_has_gone_viral/)

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.
Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.
Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.
Clear?
EDIT: I'm not the author, somebody called Benjamin Timothy Blaine is :)




Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Boris is out! :o

That's a lot of gamblers out of pocket! :doh:

Game Of Thrones Part Deux :know:

[Torplexed]

Maybe we the EU will miss this clown, but i guess not.


I imagine the EU could find a way to let the UK back in if they REALLY wanted to. But, perhaps Farage needs to go on a long holiday before he burns all their remaining bridges? :-?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

This was truly something epic.Enjoyed watching him put the EU clowns in their place.Wish we had someone to do this to a joint session of US Congress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ewRNSfyiI

Here's some pwnage in a joint session of Congress, brutally putting the mentally handicapped in their place:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVNC6dAeeyA

[Eichhörnchen]

Someone wryly observed that Boris looked for all the world like one of those idiots in a movie auction who's just been bidding for and won something he couldn't possibly afford.

[Catfish]

...
So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

Clear? ...

:rotfl2:
I wish someone could describe the german Bundestag in that way :haha:

[Jimbuna]

I imagine the EU could find a way to let the UK back in if they REALLY wanted to. But, perhaps Farage needs to go on a long holiday before he burns all their remaining bridges? :-?

He certainly doesn't pull his punches :)

[Skybird]

Game Of Thrones Part Deux :know:
In GoT he would be dead. ;) And most of the others, too. And everyone else.

Good that Shakespeare has no word in GoT, then it would all be worse. :D Shakespeare, in French: Savesnobodypierre.

[Jimbuna]

Quite an interesting post on the current position of Sturgeon/Scotland I read on another forum but thought I might enlighten you/share with you:

Looks like someone with a knowledge of math could well ruin Sturgeons arguments for EU membership.

Nicola Sturgeon was last night urged to rule out a second *referendum for “a very long time” after Scotland’s finances were exposed as the worst in Europe.

The balance sheet showed public spending almost £15billion higher than tax revenue last year, leading to a deficit of 9.7 per cent. If Scots had voted for independence, this would have left the nation in a worse position than Cyprus, Portugal, Spain, Bulgaria, Croatia and Greece.

The collapse in global oil prices was largely responsible for the fall, with opposition *politicians saying Scots had “dodged a bullet” in voting against the SNP’s independence plans.

According to the Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) figures, income from taxes in 2014/15 was almost identical to the UK figure at £10,000 per person.

However, public spending was £12,800 per person compared to £11,400 across the UK as a whole, putting the so-called “Union dividend” for Scots at £1,400 each.

The SNP claimed during the referendum campaign that Scotland would have a deficit of between 1.6 per cent and 3.2 per cent by March 24, which would have been designated “Independence Day” if there had been a Yes vote.

Instead, the country’s annual shortfall now stands at 9.7 per cent of GDP – almost double the UK’s deficit as a whole.

..........Alastair Cameron, director of the Scotland in Union campaign, said: “If we had voted Yes in the referendum, Scotland would be preparing to become an independent country by the end of the month. We can see now just how challenging this would have been against a backdrop of falling oil revenue.

“As ever, Scotland is making a full contribution, and the amount of tax we raise is broadly in line with that in the rest of the UK. But the good news is that we also benefit from significantly higher spending than the rest of the UK.

“There is no doubt the low oil revenue means Scotland would be facing deep cuts or punitive tax rises right now if we were not backed by the strength of the UK.

“No matter how they voted in the referendum 18 months ago, most Scots will agree this would not be the right time for us to leave the UK."

Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said: “Nicola Sturgeon’s economic credibility has now been smashed to smithereens. These devastating figures call into question her judgment on the nation’s finances and the oil industry, two critically important responsibilities for any Scottish First Minister.

“Of course, she was wildly optimistic on her projections for income from North Sea oil. Yet her fatal error of judgment was recommending that Scotland should be independent, even though its finances would be based on such a volatile and unpredictable source of income.”

I have edited a few areas and offered the originator full credit but they have said it wasn't necessary.

[Skybird]

If the apple costs one thaler, and one has three thalers, then how many apples can one afford to buy at max?

Here is where the sheep get separated from politicians, with sheep leaving most politicians behind.

[STEED]

Sturgeon's downfall will be if she succeeds in her plans to breakaway from the Union and go with the EU. Listening to a Scottish economist on the radio last night said this would be madness ending in a EU straitjacket placed around Scotland.

[Catfish]

Well it seems they have a plan, and something leaked out:

http://thebrexitplan.com/

[Dowly]

Well it seems they have a plan, and something leaked out:

http://thebrexitplan.com/

:har::har:

[MGR1]

Quite an interesting post on the current position of Sturgeon/Scotland I read on another forum but thought I might enlighten you/share with you:



I have edited a few areas and offered the originator full credit but they have said it wasn't necessary.

Can't fault the analyses, nope, not at all.

Anyone with half a brain cell knows that there are severe problems with the structure of the Scottish economy - that's largely the reason the No vote won in 2014.

You also know there's a major problem when a very large percentage of the Scottish workforce don't earn enough to pay income tax. Yes, they're in work, but they're not contributing directly to the country's coffers. In fact, due to the need to top up their wages via in-work benefits, they actually act as drain on it. There has to be some sort of fix for that, at least.

The catch for the UK, though, is that these structural problems with Scotland's economy currently prevents it from pulling it's full weight. This little fact is a major source of frustration for me personally as I don't want Scotland dependent on money transfers as it is now. It's not fair on anybody.

Although I don't really like playing the blame game, many of these issues are down to both Conservative and Labour socioeconomic policy and how those policies have been implemented in Scotland by Scottish politicians of both party's.

Mike.:hmmm:

[Oberon]

It's a bluff alright, but then again so was Brexit it seems and look what happened there. :dead:

[Aktungbby]

I understand (WSJ) that major EU subsidizing payments of UK farming will go away; which has a lot of British farmers in Ireland and Scotland worried. :hmmm:

[MGR1]

Unless the UK economy tanks spectacularly, and Scotland's economy gets even worse than it is, I don't think the SNP would be able to win an IndyRef in the immediate future. There are too many unanswered questions as to currency, funding and Scotland's relations with it's neighbours to undercut what seems to be inherent Scottish caution over matters economic.

As for any pro-UK campaign in the event of an IndyRef, it's pretty certain they'll do the same as they did last time, emphasising the support (i.e. money) that Scotland receives, increasingly unhappily, from the rest of the UK (i.e. England).

It could be said that in 2014, Scotland voted for stability over democracy. The upheavals of independence on all levels wasn't worth the hassle.

In 2016 England and Wales rated democracy more important than keeping things as they were, regardless of the economic cost. Scotland voted for the status quo. How Northern Ireland voted depended on whether you thought you were Irish or British.

The UK will go through a lot of upheaval in the next few years, there will be changes and there will be a lot of unhappy people and organisations.

The relations between the constituent parts of the UK will also have to change, I agree with Gove in his speech launching his leadership bid. Funding possibly being the biggest one. Let's be honest, Scottish politicians have used British money to secure their own positions within both Scotland and the Westminster system.

If anyone is to blame for the "Benefit Junkie Scotland" image which exists in England, it's Scotlands's own political class. They're the ones which have made Scotland overly reliant on money transfers from down south. They also have to take the blame for all the problems which affect Scotland's economy and the social problems that stem from it and undercut the productive elements of that same economy.

Not that any of them will admit it, of course!:shifty:

Anyway, until and unless Scotland becomes a foreign country, we Scots are still British, whether the SNP and Scotland's detractors elsewhere in the UK like it or not.

Mike.

[Mittelwaechter]

It's a bluff alright, but then again so was Brexit it seems and look what happened there. :dead:


Mr. X has privatised (privare lat. to rob) the former public means of production. He employs Daddy and Mommy.
Both have to grow and harvest spinach and broccoli for him - and have to pay him with their lifetime, by working and by buying.

Daddy states with his authority: there is spinach or broccoli for dinner.
Mommy explains us, why we want to have it: it is very healthy and it will make us strong.
We kids are free to vote - for spinach or broccoli.

So we kids decide what to have for dinner. We are in control...

I have a few questions:

Who is honest? Who is a criminal? Who rules? Who enjoys his lifetime? Who accumulates lifetime/money? Who works? Who's perception and reality is controlled? Who is free? Who is fooled?
Who is motivated to keep this system up and running? Why?

Is there anarchy? Is there democracy? Who is who in our society?

And why is there this media turmoil about the British kids deciding to remove the broccoli from their vegetable stew?

Is this all the bluff you are talking about?

[Catfish]

This is how democracy looks like. The future leaders in Oxford..

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/Cameron%20Johnson%20Oxford%20elite_zpsu0obhaib.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/Cameron%20Johnson%20Oxford%20elite_zpsu0obhaib.jpg .html)

If Labour would not be so busy destroying itself, they would make minced meat of Cameron, and Johnson. And, probably, Dove.

[Bubblehead1980]

Here's some pwnage in a joint session of Congress, brutally putting the mentally handicapped in their place:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVNC6dAeeyA


No, that was a arrogant, despicable tyrant attempting to be funny.The US Congress has not been the problem since 2010, they have done their job, to stop his reckless and foolish agenda which is not for the benefit of America.The idiots yammering on about a "do nothing" congress have not the first clue that by design, congress is not supposed to do much in the way of passing legislation. Gridlock is an ingenious thing designed into our system, prevents feds from doing too much and leaves it(as should) to states and the people.Most cases, less they do the better. Look at all the problems federal laws cause us, obamacare, affirmative action etc. To be fair, they walked right into his joke but it was nothing compared to what Nigel did to the EU.

Perhaps President Trump would put congress in their place, hope so.

I would like to see a change in our system where president is required on a weekly basis to make a trip to the house and have a q and a session, like how UK does in Prime Minister's Questions.I understand that the PM is also an MP so it's different but it would really hold the executive's feet to the fire since the press conferences etc just dont cut it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Nigel can be refreshing, yes. But here? Yawn.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2415544&postcount=992

And he lied: Video evidence has emerged of Nigel Farage saying EU cash should be spent on the National Health Service after Brexit.
The Ukip leader on Friday morning denied having endorsed a pledge to spend Britain’s EU contribution on the NHS just hours after the referendum results came in.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-nhs-350-million-pounds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.html

Maybe we the EU will miss this clown, but i guess not.


Notice he did not say everyone, but virtually everyone and would say he is correct as he was also talking about normal working class jobs, the people who are harmed by idiotic globalist policies.Most of those people pointed out are not exactly people harmed by such policies. That is the problem, the "elites" and those in government do not suffer, they are to different degrees insulated from the results of unfettered immigration, legal and illegal, lack of jobs, wage stagnation etc, so they maintain their doltish world view.

[Kapitan]

Notice he did not say everyone, but virtually everyone and would say he is correct as he was also talking about normal working class jobs, the people who are harmed by idiotic globalist policies.Most of those people pointed out are not exactly people harmed by such policies. That is the problem, the "elites" and those in government do not suffer, they are to different degrees insulated from the results of unfettered immigration, legal and illegal, lack of jobs, wage stagnation etc, so they maintain their doltish world view.

re read his pledge the £350m per week to NHS was a vote leave campaign he never stated all the funding would go to the NHS, and look at the wording too £350m could note that word could go to the NHS

[vienna]

This is the cover of the July 4, 2016 edition of The New Yorker Magazine:


http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/TNY_07_04_16-400.jpg


I wonder if Cleese gets a royalty for the use of the character?...




<O>

[Jimbuna]

This is how democracy looks like. The future leaders in Oxford..

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/Cameron%20Johnson%20Oxford%20elite_zpsu0obhaib.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/Cameron%20Johnson%20Oxford%20elite_zpsu0obhaib.jpg .html)

If Labour would not be so busy destroying itself, they would make minced meat of Cameron, and Johnson. And, probably, Dove.

I should imagine an equally suitable picture of future German leaders could have been posted but then it would possibly be in need of moderation. :hmmm:

[Catfish]

I should imagine an equally suitable picture of future German leaders could have been posted but then it would possibly be in need of moderation. :hmmm:

:haha: :up:
Well, german politicians are not bred in one elite university, to become the leader's caste of tomorrow. Too much education and dignity would be considered as undemocratic and elitist. :O:

On the other hand i also fail to see this in the English Tory politicians. It seemed to be a peeing contest between Cameron and Johnson, and not much responsibility felt for the country or its future.

As you said somewhere further north: Politics, got to love them.

[Oberon]

I think this article sums up this week quite well:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/lukebailey/the-crisis-explained-maybe?utm_term=.uyOxz0Nov#.rpBKQElAk

[Alex]

Considering what we can find in here on tv and in newspapers that would be related to the united kingdom and thoughts of people living there probably is everything but something close to the centre of gravity of public opinion on the EU, I took some time browsing videos talking about that mess on youtube, and well, it appears a few make some use of their own brain (https://youtu.be/Bn_6sU7O43w).

Great to see you've been able to get out of that mess, @UK. Being very tired of imperial ambitions coming from the West, here's hoping other countries will follow soon. :)

[Reece]

Loved that video Alex, but then what would a 64 year old fart know!:yep:

[Jimbuna]

And so 'coincidence' strikes a second time.

Only a matter of time former padawan.

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cme86jwWAAEa_p2.jpg:large

The UK Civil Service needs migrant labour in order to negotiate our post-Brexit trade deals... :har::har::har::har::har:

[HunterICX]

Brexit live: Farage resigns as Ukip leader saying 'I want my life back'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/04/brexit-live-plan-leave-vote-hysteria-boris-johnson

I came into politics from business because I believed that this nation should be self governing. I have never been and I have never wanted to be a career politician.
My aim in being in politics was to get Britain out of the European Union (https://www.theguardian.com/world/eu) that is what we voted for in that referendum two weeks ago.


And that is why I now feel that I have done my bit, that I couldn’t possibly achieve more than we managed to get in that referendum. And so I feel it’s right that I should now stand aside as leader of Ukip.


I will support the new leader. I will watch the re-negotiation process in Brussels like a hawk and perhaps comment in the European Parliament from time to time.

During the referendum campaign I said I want my country back, and I’m saying today I want my life back. And it begins right now.

''I have never been and I have never wanted to be a career politician.''

No, it's because of the responsibility that comes with being an career politician and when it comes to taking responsibility none of you loudmouths had the balls to take them. :yeah:
So you come up with that weak pethatic excuse: ''My job's done, I'm out.''

[Oberon]

Speaking of 'My job's done, I'm out':

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmedvCEXYAAzktz.jpg

1) Campaign without a plan.
2) Abandon responsibility for implementing a plan.
3) Demand that others have a plan.

:yeah:

[Torvald Von Mansee]

No, that was a arrogant, despicable tyrant attempting to be funny.The US Congress has not been the problem since 2010, they have done their job, to stop his reckless and foolish agenda which is not for the benefit of America.The idiots yammering on about a "do nothing" congress have not the first clue that by design, congress is not supposed to do much in the way of passing legislation. Gridlock is an ingenious thing designed into our system, prevents feds from doing too much and leaves it(as should) to states and the people.Most cases, less they do the better. Look at all the problems federal laws cause us, obamacare, affirmative action etc. To be fair, they walked right into his joke but it was nothing compared to what Nigel did to the EU.

Perhaps President Trump would put congress in their place, hope so.

I would like to see a change in our system where president is required on a weekly basis to make a trip to the house and have a q and a session, like how UK does in Prime Minister's Questions.I understand that the PM is also an MP so it's different but it would really hold the executive's feet to the fire since the press conferences etc just dont cut it.

Oh? Obama is a despicable tyrant? Are you saying less people voted for him in the elections he won as President, and he seized power by force or subterfuge? If he's a tyrant, why is he leaving office?

And Trump almost certainly won't be President.

[Oberon]

Oh? Obama is a despicable tyrant? Are you saying less people voted for him in the elections he won as President, and he seized power by force or subterfuge? If he's a tyrant, why is he leaving office?

And Trump almost certainly won't be President.

I really wouldn't waste your fingers, Bubbles has a...different...view on the world... :dead:

[Betonov]

Maybe with Farrage out of the way, UKIP can become a balanced party that stands for UK interests with an open mind to see where non-isolationist methods are prefferable and will strike a deal with EU that will benefit from it's common market and unrestricted by it's rules and regulations.
In other news, Slovenia realises that WW2 ended in 1945 and sets aside white vs. red bickering to create a superpower to rival the US

[Oberon]

Maybe with Farrage out of the way, UKIP can become a balanced party that stands for UK interests with an open mind to see where non-isolationist methods are prefferable and will strike a deal with EU that will benefit from it's common market and unrestricted by it's rules and regulations.

That would be something...but not particularly likely, it's more likely that a big row will emerge over who will be the next leader, and who knows, perhaps Farage will become leader again, it wouldn't be the first time. :haha:
So...I guess this just leaves the Liberal Democrats as the only major party in England that's not undergoing a leadership contest. :doh:

[Catfish]

Speaking of 'My job's done, I'm out':
1) Campaign without a plan.
2) Abandon responsibility for implementing a plan.
3) Demand that others have a plan.
:yeah:

You really cannot make all this up. "Farage wants his life back." What a slouch. I guess some others want his life, too :O:

But you can still blame the Eu:
Farage and Cameron and Johnson and Corbyn and so on are all brilliant men, they only act this way because of the EU. It is not their fault.

If the EU would not exist no one would have had to vote for going out of it.
You can then blame all negative in the world on the right-wing nationalist or socialist (all the same anyway :haha:) nations of Europe, especially Germany.

Since the EU exists you can leave it and rant the next twenty years why the financial situation of England can all be boiled down to the EU's behaviour back then.

Win-win. :yeah:

On the other hand i am a bits scared* that several people here agree with Skybird and Alex.

*:rotfl2:

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I really wouldn't waste your fingers, Bubbles has a...different...view on the world... :dead:

Even the most partisan of us can sometimes step back and do some semblance of neutrality.

[August]

Sorry if this has been posted before but I couldn't resist! :)

http://i.imgur.com/nmutr8m.jpg

[Betonov]

Sorry if this has been posted before but I couldn't resist! :)


You get a cookie for the date

[Oberon]

Even the most partisan of us can sometimes step back and do some semblance of neutrality.

:hmmm: You should probably do a post search history before posting that.

Sorry if this has been posted before but I couldn't resist! :)



That's brilliant. :har: :yeah:

[Schroeder]

No, it's because of the responsibility that comes with being an career politician and when it comes to taking responsibility none of you loudmouths had the balls to take them. :yeah:
So you come up with that weak pethatic excuse: ''My job's done, I'm out.''
The rats are leaving the sinking ship. It's absolutely beyond embarrassing and pathetic.:/\\!!
It seems that even the Brexit campaign heads now think that it wasn't such a good idea...Congratulations again UK, you've followed some great men to "Independence"!:yeah:


:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Rhodes]

I received this on my e-mail today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

[Catfish]

@ August: This was brilliant :salute:
also what Betonov said, for the date!

[HunterICX]

@August: :rotfl2::yeah:

[danasan]

Why not give the job back to Her Majesty? C'mon, Monarchy can't be that bad. Especially in your situation over there now...

[Diopos]

Why not give the job back to Her Majesty? C'mon, Monarchy can't be that bad. Especially in your situation over there now...


Bahh. She'll probably resign too!

:hmmm:

.

[Catfish]

Bahh. She'll probably resign too!

:hmmm:

.

Good chance ro get rid of all that! :yep:

And no, we will not take them back :hmph:

[Oberon]

Bahh. She'll probably resign too!

:hmmm:

.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/22/article-2373239-1AF0AFC9000005DC-836_634x735.jpg

[danasan]

Bahh. She'll probably resign too!

:hmmm:

.


Yeah, that's the spirit...:haha:

[mapuc]

After the British referendum

I read many comments among my friends, and their friends and some politicians

EU-is doomed its only a matter of years before the lover of EU will understand that.

So here are my question

Is M/S EU on its way to sink ?

Let me go a little ahead here

Some of you who support/like EU, will mostly write NO-There is a crisis in EU. EU will survive.

Those of you who are against EU-Will mostly write-Yes or I hope so.

I myself don't like EU and I truly hope M/S EU will sink.

I have however not enough knowledge to find out if that is the case.

Markus

[Bubblehead1980]

A lot of people claimed the very men who's principles we celebrated today were fools.They were laughed at, judged, ridiculed, maligned as people who dare to challenge to status quo often are, even when they have substantive arguments.

The EU is garbage and Brexit will be proven(already has really, markets have stabilized) to be the correct move. No one wants a bloody revolution, perhaps the Brexit vote and 2016 US election will be the non bloody shots in political revolutions to turn back globalism and tyranny as much as possible without warfare.

I'll never understand how any actual man, born with a penis, testicles, a brain, any self worth whatsoever can be okay with such subjugation.Even if born into a subjugated people, come on.

[Catfish]

^ @Mapuc

I myself don't like EU and I truly hope M/S EU will sink.God i don't know where all this hate comes from, towards the Eu. What are your reasons? "I do not like experts, i do not trust them"? What exactly is so bad? Immigrants? All of the nations signed international treaties about how to deal with refugees, nothing to do with the EU. You are against EU-workers? But your own people are working all over the EU, and most like it. Then you say it is not about immigrants but because.. what?

Of course it is always good to be a bit reluctant, and think, and criticise. But expressing an opinion without evidence is like "Opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one."
Not much worth without backing it up, and when Facebook and Internet forums have replaced good reference books and those about history we do not need to wonder about the quality and how some of those opinions originate.

We see how just of all the Brexit "leaders" are gallantly chickening away, afraid of their own courage. What do they intend like "come back when the dust has settled and then make England great again"? It is a pain to see, and beyond all rivalry and grudge, imagined or real, Europe is a bit concerned.
The UK is maybe or not bader off than before. It could have developed its own ideas and actions within the EU, as it can outside of it. Of course, blame it all on the EU. But we saw no change, despite all the special treaties and whatnot it demanded for its special status. All those decades, all those negotiations, all in vain. So you committed the will to change after all, good. Keeping calm is no bad advice and take your time before rash decisions. But whatever the outcome, do something.



Just read this, an opinion piece, but not as dry as you would expect from a professor :)


By Geoffrey Garrett
Dean, Reliance Professor of Management and Private Enterprise, and Professor og Management at the Wharton school of the Univ. of Pennsylvania

Brexit Aftershocks Are Creating Greater Uncertainty

»The post-Brexit aftershocks keep coming. The latest is that Nigel Farage says he is standing down as leader of the UK Independence Party having achieved his "political ambition" with the UK having voted to leave the EU.
Only a few days ago Boris Johnson, the face of the “leave” campaign and the favorite to replace David Cameron as Prime Minister, ruled himself out of the race for 10 Downing Street.


Given Johnson’s vaunted ambition for the top job, the only conclusion to draw is that he believes the Prime Ministership will be a badly poisoned chalice because the road ahead is so uncertain, and because all the possibilities are so unpalatable. Wait 5 years for the post-Brexit tsunami to sweep out Britain’s entire political class, he might think, and then come back to rebuild and reunite the country.


The “remain” campaign, led by Cameron, was ridiculed for its scare tactics in the run-up to the vote. Beware what lies ahead if you vote “leave” they said. With every passing day it is ever clearer how right they were.


After just over one week, we now are painfully aware how little the vote actually settled. We don’t know if the United Kingdom will leave the European Union. We don’t know anything about what the UK’s relationship with the EU will be going forward, nor what the EU will look like in the future. The only certainty about the Brexit vote is the uncertainty it has created.


This kind of cascading uncertainty is terrible economic news, not only for the UK and Europe but for the whole world. Investors naturally want to take their money out of the markets, and sit on the sidelines until some clarity emerges. The Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, made the extraordinary statement that the UK is suffering from “economic post-traumatic stress disorder.” But the disorder stretches far further.
Take my native Australia. Thanks to the quirks of time zones, it was the middle of the trading day in Sydney when the Brexit outcome was announced in the dead of the English night. 3% off the Australian stock market, more off the Australian dollar, both instantly – the worst day for the markets down under since the fall of Lehman Brothers. And no rebound since. No matter that the most important remaining Australian ties with Britain are sporting, not economic, with the British clean sweep over Australia in rugby two days later (just more salt in the wounds).


The broader point is clear. Every economy and ever sector is vulnerable to Brexit aftershocks, no matter how small the direct linkages are. Economists call this contagion, contagion born of uncertainty. The more uncertainty and the longer the uncertainty, the worse for the economy.
Sitting on their hands is rational for investors. But the pain it inflicts can be immense.
We saw this in 2008. But back then, Washington and the world reacted quickly and decisively to end the uncertainty. The US bailed out the banks. Central banks cut interest rates to zero. The G20 committed to massive fiscal stimulus.


The problem with the post-Brexit world is that there is no similar script to follow, and no leaders in place to follow it. This double negative whammy means that where Brexit is concerned, the only certainty is uncertainty.
Think I am exaggerating? Think again.
Start with the status of the “leave” win itself. You could well presume that after the vote the UK will definitely leave the EU, and that only some dotting of i’s and crossing of t’s remains to be done. Not so.


The British Parliament could invoke Article 50 of the EU treaties, triggering UK-EU discussions about how to manage a UK exit and how to manage UK-EU relations post-exit. But Parliament could just as easily not do this. Boris Johnson himself argued that a “leave” win might only trigger more re-negotiation of the UK’s terms of EU membership, to be followed by another Brexit referendum. Johnson then said after the vote that “Britain will always be a part of Europe.” Buyer's remorse, big time, it seems.
Add to this that a very clear majority of the House of Commons, the only real center of power in British politics, was in the “remain” camp. The governing Conservative Party is divided. But the major opposition parties were firmly “remain.” Will the House choose to reflect the will of the people over their own views? Maybe. But maybe not.


Last week’s referendum result has no legal force. The UK does not have a written constitution, let alone one stipulating rules for referendums (unlike say, amendments to the US constitution). The government of the day can make whatever decisions it wants. British social scientists love to pontificate on the wonders of the country's "unwritten constitution.” But Brexit shows it potentially enormous limitations.
And this is only the tip of the uncertainty iceberg. Here is a partial list of questions that lie just below the surface regarding the UK:


Who will be the UK Prime Minister charged with sorting out this mess? We will only find out sometime in a couple of months. With the charismatic Johnson now out, none of the remaining possible candidates is compelling. And at least one of favorites, the current Home Secretary Theresa May, is a staunch “remain” supporter, still campaigning as such.
The next Conservative Prime Minister may need Labor support to pass a “leave” law (because half the Tories are “remainers”). Will Labor comply? Probably not, because it looks like Labor leader Jeremy Corbyn will lose his job over his at best half-hearted support for “remain” (he was probably a closet “leaver”). Labor is now fervently a “remain” party, so why would they support the government? Especially since they expect the government to be forced to call an early election over the post-Brexit fiasco, and Labor will want to fight it – and thinks it might well win on – a rearguard “remain” platform.
What about Scotland? It voted strongly to “remain” in the EU, after voting to “remain” in the UK only 2 years ago. Now the leader of the Scottish Nationalists, Nicola Sturgeon, has threatened both to vote against a “leave the EU” motion in London and then to put on another “leave the UK” referendum in Scotland – because Scots today are, and want to remain, part of the EU.
What about Northern Ireland? Nearly a hundred years after the bloody war of Irish independence (with Northern Ireland staying in the UK), Ulster voted to “remain” in the EU. Now, facing the prospect of having to beef up the border with the south after slogging for decades to make it more peaceable and porous, not to mention the loss of vital regional support from the EU, maybe Northern Ireland will want its independence from the rump of Britain too?

Let’s assume the UK can sort out all this internal political chaos, follow the will of the people in the referendum, and ultimately votes to trigger Article 50 “exit” talks with the EU. Then all will be settled, right? Not at all.
The process is given 2 years to play out in terms of making a deal, and then up to a decade to implement – long time lines by design as the enveloping complexity of the EU’s entanglements are a core part of its designers’ strategy for “ever closer union” in Europe. More importantly, we have no idea what kind of deal the UK and the EU would agree to. Here are two polar opposite possibilities:


Amicable separation: The UK gets near-EU status, like Norway and Switzerland, as part of the so called European Economic Area, with the big prize unfettered access to the European market. The problem is that EEA membership means both accepting all EU rules, and paying contributions to the EU budget – exactly what Brexit was supposed to stop – but with no say over the rules or the budget. At least if you are in the EU, you get some say over its rules and its budget.
Bitter divorce: The UK gets treated like just another non-member country by the EU. The problem for the UK with this is both that Britain needs access to Europe like an EU member and that the EU has made myriad international deals for all its members. The UK would not only have to make new deals with the EU and potentially its members individually. It would have to re-make all the EU’s deals with other countries.

And it takes two to tango for Brexit to work. German Chancellor Angela Merkel seems to be leading the “amicable separation” side in the EU because she understands how important the UK is to Europe, economically, politically, and in terms of security issues. But the EU foreign ministers have already come out in favor of “bitter divorce.” They fear that if the EU lets Britain leave, other member countries will follow close behind. Think Denmark, a truly ambivalent European that like the UK is not in the Eurozone. But there is a lot of EU antipathy in other countries, core EU members like France and the Netherlands.

You probably get the sense that I am starting to think that, in the end, the UK will not leave the EU, and all that will have happened is the massive uncertainty costs generated by a symbolic referendum. You would be right.
The whole point of the Brexit vote was supposed to be to put the EU question to rest for once and for all in the UK. Instead, it has done the exact opposite, destabilizing the status quo without changing it.«

[Oberon]

It's cool to hate the EU Catfish, all the cool kids are doing it! :yep:

Meanwhile, Nigel Lawson has told the House of Commons that Brexit means that the Conservative government can now 'finish the job that Margaret Thatcher started'.

So there's that to look forward to... :dead:

[Reece]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/22/article-2373239-1AF0AFC9000005DC-836_634x735.jpg

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http://caveviews.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341bffd953ef01a5116e6fa3970c-pi (http://caveviews.blogs.com/cave_news/2014/02/queen-to-kate-middleton-lower-hemlines.html)
Where did I go wrong!!

[Skybird]

"What is wrong with the EU?"

From strong states to one even stronger super state - that is what is wrong with the EU.

From coordinating basic economic ties and rules of interaction to micro-regulating nose-picking of private individuals - that is what is wrong with the EU.

From liberal freedom to totalitarian paternalism - that si what is wrong with the EU.

From individual responsibility to collective uniformity - that is what is wrong with the EU.

From capitalism to socialism - that is what is wrong with the EU.

From strong to weak - that si what is wqroing with the EU.

From law and order to corruption and feudalism - that is what is wrong with the EU.

From freee market to planned economy - that is what is wrogn with the EU.

From historically grown cultural identity and superior civilization to enforcement of the foreign and the inferior civilization - that is what is wrign with the EU.

And always ever growing bureaucracy, nepotism, and institutionalised self-maintaining - that is wrong with the EU.

Deficitary transparency and abuse of powers in an absolutistic fashion - that is also wrong with the EU.

Betrayal, violation and breaking of self-made laws and treaties if it is oppporutne to do so - that is what is wrong with the EU.

Enforcement of foreign, in significant parts hostile mass migration into Europe under explicit violation of the local populations' natural rights and further desintegration of fiscal budgets and social communal structures - that is what is wrong with the EU.

Monopolism of power over all and every essential aspect of life and living - that is what is wrong with the EU.

The destruction of money and the planned impoverishment of the masses as a future result - that is what is wrong with the EU.

Hayek: The Road to Serfdom. That is what the EU travels on, and that is what is wrong with the EU.

That we have had all that in attempts and experiments before, and lessons from history beign ignored to make the same mistakes again, for the same dieals that already failed the last tiem they were tried, and the time before, and the time before, and the time before, and refusing to ever learn the lesson from this endless repetition of always the same $hit - that is what is wrong with the EU.

With humans and this damn curse that socialism is, it is like with a procession of endlessly reincarnating Lemmings: immediately when they got reborn, they climb up the very same mountain cliff again and jump from the same mountain top and into their death, and then they come back again and do it all again, endlessly. All this socialist drivel has been tried so awfully many times, and it always failed and caused impoverishment, collapse, starvation, economic destruction, fiscal implosion, war, dictatorship, secret police states, re-education camps, and ideology-based barbary and cruelty. Always. Without excpetion. But it must be tried again with confidence, for socialism works.

Sooner or later.

Really.

What there was in the past, just was not real, true socialism, you know. Because socialism works.

In unproven theory.

[Reece]

Not the EU Skybird, Charles!!:yep:

[Oberon]

Not the EU Skybird, Charles!!:yep:

Now you're going to get two pages... :dead:

[Reece]

:haha: That's ok, I like Skybirds posts.:up:

[Jimbuna]

Now you're going to get two pages... :dead:

Well, I'll say this for him.....he obviously believes what he posts and isn't afraid to do so.

For my own part and in a lot less detail, I want the UK to be able to control her own borders and have the ability to create our own laws without interference from other states.

[Alex]

To some extent, you would almost have myself believe you're not part of the empire at the root of that anti-democratic mess, Jim. ;)

[Oberon]

Well, I'll say this for him.....he obviously believes what he posts and isn't afraid to do so.

For my own part and in a lot less detail, I want the UK to be able to control her own borders and have the ability to create our own laws without interference from other states.

I can understand the attraction to that, I think that's what 75% of the remain vote was probably about...however, if we want to trade in the European market which is the biggest local market then we cannot control our own borders because if a nation wants to be a member of the European Economic Area then it has to accept the 'Four freedoms' of EU laws (free movement of goods, capital, services and people) as well as adopt part of the Law of the European Union. In fact, about the only advantage for us is not being a part of the Common Fisheries Policy, so our fishermen or what's left of them will get a bit of a freer hand, and will probably wind up overfishing again and screwing the cod population. :/\\!!

So ultimately, all we've done is remove ourselves from the ability to effect and change things in the EU, we've not...well, we're not going (if we do happen to leave the EU) to gain that freedom that people think we are because we need that European trade as much as they need ours...more so in many cases.

[Catfish]

^ exactly.

Also, England (and i write England, not the "UK") had negotiated itself out of so much EU-treaties and directives that e.g. a strict border control was in effect all the time, as i probably wrote here 476 times before.
It also introduced ideas and treaties that it did not sign when the time was up to vote for. When i look at what England could have done all the time it was a member of the EU, i wonder if it will do anything else now. Because it was free to do all kinds of things, it just voluntarily chose not to.

England dealing with illegal immigrants is a story about England signing international treaties (non-EU), which is why there will not change much, unless they also cancel those international contracts.

But we are running round in circles, it has all been said before –

[Rockstar]

I can understand the attraction to that, I think that's what 75% of the remain vote was probably about...however, if we want to trade in the European market which is the biggest local market then we cannot control our own borders because if a nation wants to be a member of the European Economic Area then it has to accept the 'Four freedoms' of EU laws (free movement of goods, capital, services and people) as well as adopt part of the Law of the European Union. In fact, about the only advantage for us is not being a part of the Common Fisheries Policy, so our fishermen or what's left of them will get a bit of a freer hand, and will probably wind up overfishing again and screwing the cod population. :/\\!!

So ultimately, all we've done is remove ourselves from the ability to effect and change things in the EU, we've not...well, we're not going (if we do happen to leave the EU) to gain that freedom that people think we are because we need that European trade as much as they need ours...more so in many cases.


I dont get it, are you saying when the divorce is final that the EU will sever all trade ties with the U.K.? Or that the nonly way to keep those ties open is for the U.K. to join some EU club and relenquish sovereign rights to their borders?

So what if the U.K. doesnt want to become a member of the Economic Zone? Will that mean individual states like Germany, France, Netherlands and others in the local community cannot trade with the U.K? When did individual states have to get permission from unelected EU officials to trade with the U.K.? Germany trades with us and were not part of any European Economic Union and we still get to control our own borders.

Oh and we regulate our fisheries within the US EEZ the same way the U.K., sans the E.U., can. Furthermore having worked in fisheries, you can have all the EU or U.K. laws you want but if you cannot or do not enforce them they dont do any good.

[Oberon]

I preface this with the caveat that this is how I understand it, so I may well be wrong in my understanding, just putting that out there first.

I dont get it, are you saying when the divorce is final that the EU will sever all trade ties with the U.K.? Or that the nonly way to keep those ties open is for the U.K. to join some EU club and relenquish sovereign rights to their borders?

Hopefully by the time that the divorce is done we will have already have settled the trade deals but if left untouched then yes, I do believe that the trade deals would end since they were an internal EU trade matter, from EU nation state to nation state rather than from external state into the EU.
Now, I highly doubt the EU will sever all trade ties with the UK, however the ties will not be at the favourable rates that we have today, unless we join the EU club and allow free movement of EU workers.
Now, we can still control movement of non-EU workers, and we've been able to do that all the while we've been in the EU, but it's one of the four freedoms that are the main principle of the EU, so we can't control the flow of EU workers and since we won't have a say in the EU any more, we'll never be able to control it, unless we leave the EEA and hope that other non-EU states can cover the short-fall.

A lot of people have mentioned the Norway model, which is a nation which is a part of the EEA but not a member of the EU. They are a member of the Schengen Area because that's a rule of being a member of the EEA, and they also have to abide by many EU laws and legislation, however their say in these laws and legislation is greatly reduced compared to a full EU member nation, and they essentially have what is nicknamed a 'fax democracy' where they wait for Belgium to fax in new laws and then they have to implement them in order to continue to be a member of the EEA. They reserve the right to debate in their parliament any major laws, but they never have, AFAIK.


So what if the U.K. doesnt want to become a member of the Economic Zone? Will that mean individual states like Germany, France, Netherlands and others in the local community cannot trade with the U.K? When did individual states have to get permission from unelected EU officials to trade with the U.K.? Germany trades with us and were not part of any European Economic Union and we still get to control our own borders.

Oh, trade is still possible between EU nations and outside entities, the EU doesn't ban nations from dealing with non-EU nations, but the key difference is tariffs. If the US was a member of the EU (:doh:) then that trade deal between Germany and the US would have greatly reduced tariffs.
Deals can still be worked out, just as they are between nations outside of trading blocs, but it's usually done quicker through the EU. For example, South Korea and Australia signed a trade deal (The Korean-Australia Free Trade Agreement) which took 20 years for the tariff to reduce to a level which a similar deal with the EU (The EU Korea Free Trade Deal) took five years to reach. I can't say why it's this way, I'm no economist, but I imagine it's power in numbers, after all, when you put together the entire economies of the EU pre-Brexit, and that includes dear old Greece, it's a rival to the US's GDP and it has a slightly less debt to GDP ratio than the US, so it's probably close enough to say that the EU when united, has a similar economic strength to the US. Individually European national GDPs are pretty good, but about a sixth of the size of the US and a third of the size of China. So as a unified entity, the EU makes for a pretty enticing and powerful economic figure. After all, the G8, the worlds 8 most powerful countries, are half EU members, UK, Germany, France and Italy.
Militarily, we're really not that far behind the US, we have a similar number of MBTs and the active manpower is about the same, but our spending is three times lower and our airforces and navies show that, but then we don't generally use a projection of power in such a wide area as the US does, so that's the trade-off. Aside from the odd colonial left-overs, most European power is content to be projected as far as the Middle East and no further. Ideally our limited would be North Africa but events in the 21st century have pulled us further east, but that can't be helped.

I'm waffling...right, back to the topic...

Oh and we regulate our fisheries within the US EEZ the same way the U.K., sans the E.U., can. Furthermore having worked in fisheries, you can have all the EU or U.K. laws you want but if you cannot or do not enforce them they dont do any good.

Oh, we'll have the freedom to regulate, but it's going to be how much regulation is put in place and how much that is actually followed...aaaand how much we get in fights with Spain and Iceland about it. It's been fairly quiet since the 1990s, but there were some pretty big diplomatic (and in Icelands case nearly military) disputes over fishing areas and quotas which I think is mainly what lead to the creation of the Common Fisheries Policy back in the 1970s. However in the 1990s there was a crisis when it was discovered that overfishing and overinvestment in fishing had meant that stocks of fish in areas like the North Sea were dangerously low, as such in 1995 the EU introduced a permit system which dictated where fishing could be done and how much fish could be caught. This lead to some discontent between the UK and Spain because Spain has a habit of completely ignoring these quotas and hoovering up fish. Of course, if we take our waters out of the EU fishing zone and regulate them sensibly and patrol them regularly then that could well be a benefit to what's left of the British fishing industry, that is of course, if our boats only fish in our waters...if they go outside and into EU waters, which they currently do, then things get a bit more tricky. It, like many EU things, is a double edged sword, on the one hand we get Spanish fishermen being idiots in our waters, but on the other hand we can get good hauls of fish in Spanish waters and that's all above board. If our boats try that outside of the EU, I suspect that a Spanish corvette would be on the scene very quickly.

I won't say that there aren't some small advantages to be had for being outside of the EU, that's a given, but in my mind at the very least, they are heavily outweighed by the disadvantages, and the story put forward by the Leave campaign, which seemed to indicate that leaving the EU would fix immigration and allow us to put in place 'An Australian points based system'™ whilst at the same time still being able to access the EEA and enjoy the benefits of low tariff trading with Europe, well...it's a fabrication, you can't have it both ways, either you join the EEA and accept being a member of the Schengen Area or you don't join the EEA and have to cope with higher tariffs on trade deals in order to comply with World Trading Organisation rules.

I have a feeling that this message didn't get across to the British public so well in the run up to the referendum, and I think that those who voted Leave in order to 'Stick it to Cameron' are going to realise that they really stuck it to themselves instead, because what replaces Cameron is not going to be an improvement. The damage which has been done to the global economy and the continuing drip feed of damage to the British economy, before we even leave the EU, means that the Tories are going to have to increase austerity which is going to hurt the middle and lower classes (those who were more likely to vote Brexit) disproportionately versus the wealthy, as it has been doing for the past six years.
I admit though, I could be wrong, there is perhaps a slim chance that the Tories will abandon austerity, Osborne has already had to abandon his goal for a budget surplus by 2020, so maybe he'll cash all in and try from a different angle...but I highly doubt it.

It's not the end of the world, sure, but things are going to be rough for the UK for a few years and when things do stabilise, as they will, we're going to be poorer for our departure in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if we did slip down the GDP table by a notch or two within the next decade if Brexit goes ahead.
I can't help but think that a mistake has been made, on the basis of misleading and dog-whistle style politics, and that the UK...well...England maybe, will suffer for it, it won't be destroyed...although the UK might well become a thing of the past, but it will suffer.
I mean, one thing that hasn't really been talked about in depth since the referendum is the effect that this is going to have on the Good Friday Agreement which was based around EU membership. That's just one of the many things that we've got to sort out, and within two years assuming that Article 50 is deployed this year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12161332/Could-Brexit-disturb-the-peace-in-Northern-Ireland.html

From a political and historical viewpoint, it's all very interesting...but in a more alarming way when you're in the midst of it. As I put on another forum last week...this must be how Americans feel whenever there's an election. :dead:

[Oberon]

Apologies for the Skybirdian length, it's late and I tend to waffle when it's late...so I think I'll hit the sack now. :salute:

[Rockstar]

nighty night

[STEED]

The EU has got other problems like another possible bail out for Greece and Italy has this...

Reported on July 5th

Bad Debt Piled in Italian Banks Looms as Next Crisis
http://www.wsj.com/articles/bad-debt-piled-in-italian-banks-looms-as-next-crisis-1467671900

Forget Brexit; markets are all about Italian banks right now.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/italian-banking-problem-2016-7

Italy's banking problems could lead to 'Italeave,' says strategist
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/05/italys-banking-problems-could-lead-to-italeave-says-strategist.html

Italy’s banking crisis a bigger problem than Brexit
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/stephen-bartholomeusz/italys-banking-crisis-a-bigger-problem-than-brexit/news-story/d4e0c5007fb133db959cc569f9678804

[Von Due]

Been following this thread on the side line. Now, I'm no huge fan of the EU but this whole Brexit thing, if you teamed up Monty Python, NtNoCN, Yes Prime Minister and Spitting Image, you couldn't have come up with a greater satire. This goes to both sides but the Brexit camp wins the Bozo Award. Big words signifying funk all before slithering out. Not impressed.

As for the EU: The birth was noble and sensible enough, the Steel and Coal Union to strengthen the ties between France and Germany. Now, on the other hand, it's a mess straining whatever ties there are between the EU countries.

Clarke & Dawe has a splendid take on the brotherly love and unity between the countries. In the core of the EU, that is. The finance world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QwKEwo4Bc

[Oberon]

Ha, Clarke and Dawe, brilliant, remind me a lot of Bremner, Bird and Fortune. :yeah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6a_weyzkY4

[Catfish]

I am not a "fan" of the EU, but i think it is better than no union of this kind. What i really like is the idea, and this is much bigger than scaremongering and nit-picking.

I wonder what will happen with the Tokamak project, if the UK bails out of the EU scientific treaties, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_European_Torus

Next one is being built in France alright, and we have the Stellarator in Germany, but.. let's hope the scientific community will go on together.

Beyond 2018, the future of JET is uncertain due to the UK decision in June 2016 to leave the EU.
https://www.euro-fusion.org/2016/06/eurofusion-and-uk-after-brexit/

[Dan D]

Right-wing populism sees the EU as an undemocratic socialistic nightmare, while left-wing populism laments that under EU rule globalised financial capitalism controls democracy.

If you tend to a more pragmatic approach, you can think further, the UK and the EU in future will continue to cooperate on trade, at least, because it is in the interest of both the EU and the UK.

Minimum would be, the UK joins the EFTA (European Free Trade Agreement).

Such an association agreement with the EU makes is also very likely to keep Scotland in the UK.

So we get back to this:
http://www.cer.org.uk/publications/archive/policy-brief/2016/if-uk-votes-leave-seven-alternatives-eu-membership

"THE SEVEN ALTERNATIVES TO EU MEMBERSHIP"

[Jimbuna]

Saw this earlier in another forum and thought it worthy of sharing.

A slightly different perspective from the mainland of Europe.

First Junckers for negotiating the deal and now Schulz for his reactions to the vote . My contacts in the city say their foreign counterparts are reporting an increase in the dissatisfaction ( especially in Germany ) of how the deal to keep the UK in the EU was handled and many agree that It was a ' nothing ' deal , almost guaranteed to affect the vote . They also agree that the UK is in an incredibly strong position for Brexit negotiations , no company can afford to lose a cent in sales now and certainly not millions of Euros . Its ours to mess up and that is probably a major fear with so much hand wringing etc .

' The German europhile who heads the European Parliament is facing a plot to oust him – in a boost for the country's Brexit negotiations.

Just hours after the referendum vote, European Parliament president Martin Schulz threatened there would be 'consequences' for Britain to discourage others 'following the same dangerous path' out of the EU.

But he now faces being kicked out of his job, which will include oversight of the Brexit deal, after losing the support of Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union party.

Mr Schulz, a socialist, had been expected to be allowed to stay in the role when his two-and-a-half year term ends at the end of this year.

However, centre-right MEPs, who sit with Mrs Merkel's party in the Parliament and make up the biggest grouping, are now likely to oppose him keeping hold of the post when they vote on it later in the year.

According to Die Welt, Mr Schulz has become 'persona-non grata' at the highest levels of Mrs Merkel's party due to his reaction to the Brexit vote.

CDU secretary general Peter Tauber told the German newspaper that Mr Schulz's Social Democratic Party 'stands for everything that makes people angry at Europe'.

Mrs Merkel, who is the most powerful leader in the EU, has said there is 'no reason to be nasty' in Britain's exit negotiations.

German manufacturers have warned they need to protect the trading relationship with Britain, which is their third largest export market after France and the U.S.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage yesterday said Britain has an 'incredibly strong hand' in negotiations because it imports more from the EU than it exports.

Speaking at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, he said: 'In the commercial world it is the customer that is king.

'We are the customer, we are the buyer, the trade deficit between the UK and the EU is now approximately £70billion every year.

'With elections coming up next year in France and in Germany, I would expect to see German car manufacturers and French wine and champagne producers putting big pressure during that electoral process for a common sense deal to be reached with the UK.'

The EU's chief bureaucrat, European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, is also facing pressure to step down in the wake of the Brexit vote.

His spokesman was yesterday forced to deny claims that he is secretly ill. 'The health of the president is excellent,' he said.

Last year the Mail revealed how Mr Schulz as European Parliament president has two limousines, two chauffeurs and an entourage of 33 other assistants paid for by the taxpayer.

Mr Schulz, who has been an MEP for 22 years, receives up to 310,000 euros (£265,000) a year in salary and allowances.

The married father-of-two developed an alcohol problem and lost his job as a bookseller after he turned to drinking when a knee injury ended his dream of a football career. '

[Reece]

The married father-of-two developed an alcohol problem and lost his job as a bookseller after he turned to drinking when a knee injury ended his dream of a football career. '
What's with the last line Jim, seems to be out of context!:hmmm:

[Rockstar]

Well, let me know when the Brexit begins to affect you or some one you know personally. Be interested to see how reality compares to what the xenophobes who oppose Brexit say.

[Catfish]

... how reality compares to what the xenophobes who oppose Brexit say.

:huh: What?


B.t.w. look what i just found – I did not know of this older saying:

Definiton of "British Exit", Urban dictionary:
"The opposite of an Irish Goodbye, the British Exit is a departure from a party that is specifically designed to be as harmful to everyone involved as possible. This can include verbal abuse, extensive damage, loud refusals to pay for anything, and hurling oneself through a closed window into people standing outside. “Don't invite Dan over here ever again. His British Exit took us a week to clean up.”"

:yep::har:

[Oberon]

Well, let me know when the Brexit begins to affect you or some one you know personally. Be interested to see how reality compares to what the xenophobes who oppose Brexit say.

K.

I work in the hospitality trade, we've already had several cancellations of business because of the result of the referendum and the economic uncertainty.
A friend of mine is from Northern Ireland, shortly after the referendum she was flying back to visit family when a man approached her gloating that she'd need a visa to come back, she promptly rectified his ignorance.

That's all I've got at the moment I'll have a look and see what my friends have been saying later.Those are the two that occur to mind immediately.

[Jimbuna]

I'd like to think those EU citizens already domiciled and working in the UK be allowed to remain as should those UK citizens who are abroad.

[Oberon]

I'd like to think those EU citizens already domiciled and working in the UK be allowed to remain as should those UK citizens who are abroad.

Same, because it'd be a bloody mess trying to extract them all and tax an already overburdened system.

[Dan D]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/all/interview/italys-ambassador-to-the-uk-brexit-could-have-been-avoided/

Interesting interview with the Italian Ambassador to the UK here,
who argues that Brexit could have been avoided had the UK introduced national reforms to manage freedom of movement for EU migrants.

The legal situation as we know by now is that freedom of movement means that as an EU citizen you can live, work and retire in any other EU country.

The right to work also includes the right to seek work for a 3 months period of time after you have entered the EU country.

If you are unable to find a job within 3 months, you can be sent back, because after three months you could make social benefit claims which has to be avoided by any means as no country can afford migration into its social security systems by people who do not pay into them.

So with the free movement also comes law enforcement.

The ambassador argues that the UK does not have the necessary tools to make the free movement enforcement possible because in the UK they never introduced an ID system.

"They have no registration system, so you can not trace down workers and check".

This is amazing. I am getting an idea now why the free movement of EU citizens is such a big issue in the UK if they can not manage free movement of EU citizens there.

[vienna]

Same, because it'd be a bloody mess trying to extract them all and tax an already overburdened system.

Say, here in the States we've got this Donald fella with a wall idea you might be interested in... :D



<O>

[Oberon]

Say, here in the States we've got this Donald fella with a wall idea you might be interested in... :D



<O>

Well...

You see...there was this latin hipster called Hadrian (http://itsaugustus2you.tumblr.com/post/24791386681/the-original-hipster)...and one thing lead to another and...well...

http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.214185637.6232/pp,550x550.u3.jpg

We're ok for a wall, at the moment, needs a bit of TLC but nothing that a couple of Polish builders couldn't fix...

Oh...wait...

[vienna]

But, if you get Donald to build it, it would be "Yuugge!!"...

...of course, the contractors won't be paid and, if sued, he'll just declare bankruptcy, but hey, you get a new wall!...



<O>

[Oberon]

you get a new wall!...



<O>

Made out of bounced cheques no doubt. :haha:

[STEED]

Juncker: EU Won't Be Hostile In Brexit Talks
The European Commission chief says Brussels has to "engage in negotiations" with Britain in the wake of the Brexit vote.http://news.sky.com/story/juncker-eu-wont-be-hostile-in-brexit-talks-10495944

The Master Plan? :hmmm:

[Buddahaid]

Say, here in the States we've got this Donald fella with a wall idea you might be interested in... :D



<O>

Too late I'm afraid....
http://pstewsings.com/

[Jimbuna]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/all/interview/italys-ambassador-to-the-uk-brexit-could-have-been-avoided/

Interesting interview with the Italian Ambassador to the UK here,
who argues that Brexit could have been avoided had the UK introduced national reforms to manage freedom of movement for EU migrants.

The legal situation as we know by now is that freedom of movement means that as an EU citizen you can live, work and retire in any other EU country.

The right to work also includes the right to seek work for a 3 months period of time after you have entered the EU country.

If you are unable to find a job within 3 months, you can be sent back, because after three months you could make social benefit claims which has to be avoided by any means as no country can afford migration into its social security systems by people who do not pay into them.

So with the free movement also comes law enforcement.

The ambassador argues that the UK does not have the necessary tools to make the free movement enforcement possible because in the UK they never introduced an ID system.

"They have no registration system, so you can not trace down workers and check".

This is amazing. I am getting an idea now why the free movement of EU citizens is such a big issue in the UK if they can not manage free movement of EU citizens there.

Quite refreshing to read :up:

[Betonov]

Just on the local radio: Tourist offices in Slovenia recorded a 10% increase in trip reservations to the UK, attributed to the fall of the pound which makes travel cheaper.

[Von Due]

Just on the local radio: Tourist offices in Slovenia recorded a 10% increase in trip reservations to the UK, attributed to the fall of the pound which makes travel cheaper.

Damn foreign tourists, swarming over there to put hard cash into the local economies. :)

[Catfish]

^ This is what i read, it also seems the UK is therefore now perfectly suited for holiday trips from India, and Pakistan. :D

But seriously, why not, tourism is a very good income source.
On a sidenote: Anyone knows of a nice Triumph Spitfire GT6 Mk2 to sell?

[Betonov]

But seriously, why not, tourism is a very good income source.
On a sidenote: Anyone knows of a nice Triumph Spitfire GT6 Mk2 to sell?


Pfffft, child of modesty :O:
I'm going to buy Fiji

[Jimbuna]

Just on the local radio: Tourist offices in Slovenia recorded a 10% increase in trip reservations to the UK, attributed to the fall of the pound which makes travel cheaper.

While here's me looking for somewhere to go abroad on holiday :doh:

[Oberon]

While here's me looking for somewhere to go abroad on holiday :doh:

Scotland? :O:

[Betonov]

Or London :haha:

[Skybird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWPJE4xaJM

Mostly I agree with him, as usual, but this time I would like to go into some details with him, however. Especially the nature of money.

[Jimbuna]

Scotland? :O:

That won't be a foreign country till next year or the year after :03:

[Jimbuna]

Or London :haha:

I've looked at Montenegro and Dubrovnik Anze but flights from Newcastle aren't favourable (mid-week flights) so, unless the boy comes up with accommodation on his ship within the next fortnight it's looking like Greece (possibly Zante) or one of the Canary Islands.

[Betonov]

I've looked at Montenegro and Dubrovnik Anze

Unles it's Istra I can't visit :O:

You should really give Rovinj a chance. It's like Dubrovnik but shinier and cheaper :03:

[Jimbuna]

Unles it's Istra I can't visit :O:

You should really give Rovinj a chance. It's like Dubrovnik but shinier and cheaper :03:

Do my a favour and save me the search but where is Istra and Rovinj?

[Betonov]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sl/thumb/6/6d/Istra0312.png/220px-Istra0312.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Istria_Croatian_Adriatic.png/250px-Istria_Croatian_Adriatic.png

http://www.hrvaska.net/large/istra_p208.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Flights from Manchester only :hmm2:

[MGR1]

Pula would be good to see for a bit of Austro-Hungarian naval history.:cool:

One of these days, maybe.:hmmm:

Mike.:)

[Eichhörnchen]

http://i.imgur.com/QC441T9.jpg "You lot are going to be sooo sorry!"

[Jimbuna]

And on and on it goes....

A huge German firm just revealed how badly Brexit delays will hurt the country

http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-deutsche-bahn-boss-fears-brexit-will-cause-delays-hurt-business-2016-7

[Jimbuna]

Oh God, spare us :nope:

Forget Brexit — Italy is poised to tear Europe apart.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/italys-political-and-economic-crisis-threatens-europes-stability-2016-7

[Catfish]

"There is something absurd about a land frontier"


1925 (Byron)

[STEED]

Oh God, spare us :nope:

Forget Brexit — Italy is poised to tear Europe apart.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/italys-political-and-economic-crisis-threatens-europes-stability-2016-7

Beat you to that one a week ago jim. :O:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2417132&postcount=1087

They are insolvent and went begging to Germany who in turn told them to sod off. Germany has their own problem bank..

Deutsche Bank hit by IMF hazard warning
Sorry no link it comes from the FT on line and you need to subscribe to read it.

Found some news..
July 11th 2016
Fears rise on Deutsche Bank’s fall from grace
http://www.bdlive.co.za/world/europe/2016/07/11/fears-rise-on-deutsche-banks-fall-from-grace

July 6th 2016
Deutsche Bank: World's most dangerous bank?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36723034

[Oberon]

At least we've taken back the sovereignty, to prevent people unelected by the general public from representing us!


Oh...wait...

[Catfish]

^ lol

However since it was a lot about immigration and taking back border control, i always thought there was no compulsory registration in the UK? :hmmm:

So this is about freedom as such, or of movement? But not for the rest of Europe?

On the other hand England has the best/worst (depends on pov) video surveillance.

Sometimes i just don't get it :dead:

[Oberon]

Sometimes i just don't get it :dead:

You and 48% of the country... :dead:

[Oberon]

The aftershocks of Brexit continue to rumble on with a major diplomatic spat between Number 10 and the Foreign Office:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnHRv5VWcAAMyfy.jpg

Larry the Downing Street cat faces off against Palmerston the Foreign office cat in the archway between the two offices last night. :haha:

[MGR1]

From Jane's:UK Airports face regulatory juggling act if Brexit happens (http://www.ihsairport360.com/article/7916/uk-faces-regulatory-juggling-act-if-brexit-happens)

I highly doubt that Brexit will be a quick process, nor that it will be fully completed within the two year timescale of Article 50.

Mike.

[STEED]

The EU showing its true evil colours..

The EU must not let Britain profit from leaving the bloc as that could inspire other states to follow suit, European Council President Donald Tusk said, echoing other policymakers in signaling a tough stance in upcoming Brexit negotiations.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told broadcaster ZDF on Sunday that Britain would not be allowed to "cherry pick" what it wanted from the relationship while jettisoning aspects it did not like.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-tusk-idUSKCN0ZT0WK

So much for a nice club of friendly folk. I urge other Europeans countries leave.

[Oberon]

Good news STEED!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnQIKBpWcAAsFoC.jpg

[STEED]

^Yea right sure..:rolleyes:

Hey look a fleet of UFO's. :03:

[Catfish]

The EU showing its true evil colours..

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-tusk-idUSKCN0ZT0WK

So much for a nice club of friendly folk. I urge other Europeans countries leave.

Oh yes what did you expect, a warm welcome? :haha:

Also it seems you are showing your true colours, the article is about polish Mr. Tusk and others of the EU who say that the EU mustn't let Britain profit from Brexit. Ms Merkel is more on the friendly side, at least has been until now.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683687/EU-referendum-Brexit-Angela-Merkel-German-industry-Britain-single-market-Juncker

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36710399

That England cannot expect to "pick any cherries" after the last decades' treaties (that b.t.w. now have all become useless) should be self-evident :03:

[STEED]

I only read Reuters and sky news with a bit of BBC. :smug:

Only last week the EU was being nice and saying it will be smooth now they change their tune.. the Italian banking crisis must be giving them a headache.

[Catfish]

Fixed.

[STEED]

Place your bets on remain..

The chances of Article 50 never being triggered are higher than ever, after Theresa May was announced as the next Prime Minister, bookmakers say.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-betting-there-are-strong-odds-article-50-may-never-happen-2016-7

Oberon going to have a flutter? :hmmm: :)

I'm putting a tenner on remain.

[Jimbuna]

Mr. Tusk would be well advised to keep his opinions to himself, especially when considering how well Poland do out of their EU membership.

Bluff and counter-bluff will ensue from both sides of the Brexit negotiations for many a year to come.

I don't see any remaining country being able to afford cutting economic ties with the UK when you take into consideration how much we import.

[Oberon]

Heh, I think after the last election and the results of the referendum we should all know better than to try and predict British politics at the moment. :doh:

[Catfish]

It will work out in the long run, and everyone who has his quarterpound of brain in bis head will see to a continued and prosperous trade, with or without the EU.

On the one hand it will still take two years to leave after triggering of said article, so i can understand the EU wanting new negotiations as soon as possible.
On the other hand England obviously needs time to form its new government, and what no one needs is haste and rash decisions.

Well it's fun since we all can so much discuss this, and rant :D

[Jimbuna]

It will work out in the long run, and everyone who has his quarterpound of brain in bis head will see to a continued and prosperous trade, with or without the EU.

On the one hand it will still take two years to leave after triggering of said article, so i can understand the EU wanting new negotiations as soon as possible.
On the other hand England obviously needs time to form its new government, and what no one needs is haste and rash decisions.

Well it's fun since we all can so much discuss this, and rant :D

You haven't got the time to hang around here posting, you should be hard at work building up some fresh pension funds to enable Angela to take up the extra burdon of financial aid to those non-net contributors now that the UK tap will soon be drying up.

Best I don't mention further expected bailouts :)

:03:

[STEED]

Early indications are showing the EU doing the classical nothing to see here don't panic all is well kick the can down the road with the Italian banks. Problem is time and time again delaying doing anything about it causes the problem to get bigger and bigger. I shall be watching this one with interest.

[Jimbuna]

Don't count on British 'interest' then, it is strongly rumoured the BoE will cut rates from 0.5% to 0.25% in a week or two.

Great for borrowers but not so good for savers.

[Wolferz]

Will Britain be braking all ties now by closing their end of the Chunnel?:O:

[Catfish]

Will Britain be braking all ties now by closing their end of the Chunnel?:O:

Yep, and they will charge the EU for filling it up with concrete :woot:

[Jimbuna]

Don't count on British 'interest' then, it is strongly rumoured the BoE will cut rates from 0.5% to 0.25% in a week or two.

Great for borrowers but not so good for savers.

Bank of England (only a few hours after the above post) voted by a margin of 8-1 to leave the interest rates as they are for now.

[Jimbuna]

Will Britain be braking all ties now by closing their end of the Chunnel?:O:

Probably not but seeing as it is the only way the Germans would be able to bypass the Royal Navy, the French must remember their only escape route could very quickly become compromised :O:

[STEED]

Starting to look good for the remain camp.

Britain's new Prime Minister Theresa May, who quietly backed the campaign to stay in the EU but quickly appointed leave campaigners to key posts in her cabinet to show she is serious the vote for Brexit means Brexit.

She has said she will not trigger the negotiations to leave the 28-member bloc before the end of the year

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-conservatives-idUKKCN0ZV0JH

[Catfish]

Hi Jim,
sorry, took some time ..
You haven't got the time to hang around here posting, you should be hard at work building up some fresh pension funds to enable Angela to take up the extra burdon of financial aid to those non-net contributors now that the UK tap will soon be drying up.

A pity! Now I indeed will have to work when the UK stops financing me, to pay for Greeece! :haha:

"The UK tap" lmao. What about the german tap. The UK invests as much into the EU as it gets out, and industry says it's even more due to all the advantages it gets. Got. Past tense.
https://fullfact.org/europe/ask-full-fact-our-eu-membership-fee-and-economy/
Germany is strong in exports, not imports. Despite paying "so much" to the Eu (which then disperses the money to other countries' agricultural programs, but also education and science) there is a lot more coming in and helping the economy indirectly.

You cannot measure this with direct "fees", paid to the EU by the government, or taxes. The positive gross net impact on Germany is much bigger. Think of the government investing some money in the club, to be able to sell your companies' goods without restrictions and import toll and taxes, and this money does not get back to the government, but directly to the companies, to the non-bank economy – this helps the companies and the man on the street. And those numbers appear nowhere in those UK/EU in/out statistics.
Further there is international experience of the people working all over the EU to multilingual experts and students programs, coming back and helping the homeland, which has only been available for those "better off" before.

So smaller export numbers may hurt Germany momentarily, but do you think that e.g. BMW in England will have to stop building the new Mini? Most of them are not even sold in the UK, and the money goes to .. guess who?
Workers in the UK, and the german BMW company.

I think it is high time England builds up its own new kind of production economy, not based on banks and interest alone. And this means you have to flex your muscles, not only me. Real production has been neglected by England, relying too much on its financial trade alone for decades. Certainly there was a lot of money in it, but it is virtual money, non existent black numbers, virtually falling from the sky.
And no one, not even the EU, has forced England to behave in that way. It was just easier, and more convenient, than investing and modernizing production facilities.

Since the Uk imports more than it exports, "Brexit" will certainly have some consequences for the continental industries, in the short run. But being a consumer market alone is not economical strength, especially if the common people have not the money to participate and buy all those foreign goods.
But.. when it works out all so well as you obviously expect with the islandish economy, there will be no worries at all, and for all :03:

Best I don't mention further expected bailouts :)
Don't bet on it :)

I hope this made sense, i am aware of my english writing deficiency :oops:

[Jimbuna]

I hope this made sense, i am aware of my english writing deficiency :oops:

That is a fair response but to be totally honest, I doubt anyone on either side of the Brexit debate actually knows how it will all pan out until the aftermath (when that actually occurs) can be assessed.

[MGR1]

I see that May's holding off on triggering Article 50 until she has a pan-UK consensus.

Considering the SNP's position, that may prove to be difficult. A Norway style EEA position would probably mollify the SNP somewhat, but free movement will be a sticking point - Scotland benefits from it, whilst England doesn't.

I just hope that Scotland doesn't end up being the Brexit camp's whipping boy when they don't get everything they wanted.:shifty:

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

I just hope that Scotland doesn't end up being the Brexit camp's whipping boy when they don't get everything they wanted.:shifty:

Mike.

That is precisely what I'm thinking :yep: