Brexit ?

[Eichhörnchen]

An MP observed wryly yesterday that with some leading tories wanting to stay in the EU but ditch the ECHR, some wanting to leave the EU and do the same, and yet others wanting to reject both... that it's a good thing they no longer have to worry about the indecision of a Coalition Government.

[Catfish]

@Catfish....are you aware of the context the 'V sign' remark was intended?

After reading it again it was obviously meant only as the typical british reaction to foreign pressure.. my fault :oops:

[Jimbuna]

After reading it again it was obviously meant only as the typical british reaction to foreign pressure.. my fault :oops:

No problem matey, I suspected that was the case :03:

[Skybird]

We can be outside of the EU and remain signatories to the ECHR, but it's a requirement of EU membership to be a signatory to ECHR. Resigning (as is the wish of some Tories) would mean loss of EU membership anyway.
If only politicians would live by their self-made rules. But politics show one thing before anything else: rules mean nothing, if not opportune. Many politicians will take dance class lessons to tap-dance around such rules instead. And they often end up clacking their heels faster than Michael Flatley.

[Rockstar]

Only McCarthy can save us now! :O:

But if McCarthy hated Communists and Hitler hated Communists wouldn't that be clear evidence that McCarthy and those who followed his pursuits were... NAZIS! :o

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GKfEBkN2aNU/UORj5Ut3fsI/AAAAAAAALbc/uVH-lw-p-Uo/s1600/giffed-hitler06.gif

ok Im done with the nazi thing. it not good for my health to view life in such extremes.

[Oberon]

But if McCarthy hated Communists and Hitler hated Communists wouldn't that be clear evidence that McCarthy and those who followed his pursuits were... NAZIS! :o

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GKfEBkN2aNU/UORj5Ut3fsI/AAAAAAAALbc/uVH-lw-p-Uo/s1600/giffed-hitler06.gif

ok Im done with the nazi thing. it not good for my health to view life in such extremes.

Ah, but the Nazis were socialists, therefore the Nazis were communists, so only McCarthy can save the world!

We need a new Hitler gif... :hmmm:


Actually, while we're in Godwin mode, I found this little interesting snippet today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oET1WaG5sFk

[Respenus]

Concerning the ECHR, I would like to point out that no Member State is legally obliged to be a member of the Council of Europe or accede to the European Convention on Human Rights, however, it is something that is politically expected (it was especially expected of ex-Communist countries as a step on their way towards democracy and rule of law)

What makes it appear as obligatory is Article 6 (2) of the Treaty on European Union, which obliges the latter (as a legal entity, not individual Member States) to accede to the Convention, although that has not yet happened for legal reasons. As we had it explained to us by a high-level constitutional judge, it is a major headache on how to reconcile the Convention, the Treaties and the Charter, and they still have not found a way out of the conundrum.

Another element that complicates the discussion is the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU, which has the same legal weight as the treaties (although is not a part thereof), and which gives the EU its own list of human rights.

To simplify things, you can be an EU member without signing-up to the Convention and thus the ECHR, but you will become a political pariah, as even Russia and Turkey have not pulled out and they are among the countries most prosecuted by their citizens.

[Buddahaid]

But if McCarthy hated Communists and Hitler hated Communists wouldn't that be clear evidence that McCarthy and those who followed his pursuits were... NAZIS! :o

No, Hitler had an evil cat that was the real power behind the scenes. The other evidence was photoshopped obviously.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/Album%20Three/funny-pictures-history-the-evil-source-of-hitler-ceiling-cat.gif (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/sirwinpb/media/Album%20Three/funny-pictures-history-the-evil-source-of-hitler-ceiling-cat.gif.html)

[Oberon]

That explains everything!


Meanwhile in other news.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUDGI6rWsAECLsI.jpg

Creates a petition to close UK borders....while living in Spain... :/\\!!

[Reece]

She obviously doesn't like the British! :doh:

[Catfish]

She obviously doesn't like the British! :doh:

Why? She wants to protect the British, and maybe even from her own presence :D

On the other hand: Is that not what all the Brexit advocates really want? Close the borders for immigrants?
Ah ok i should never mention this, of course it is more complicated. Like "Economical pressure", "England pays more than the whole EU, for the EU", "Brussel's bureaucracy" and so on. Better not mention the real reason :hmmm:

[Reece]

On the other hand: Is that not what all the Brexit advocates really want? Close the borders for immigrants?
Immigrants I wouldn't mind but Muslims scare the hell out of me, all they want to do is kill and rape innocent people, I can't blame the British for wanting the border closed.:timeout:

[Schroeder]

Immigrants I wouldn't mind but Muslims scare the hell out of me, all they want to do is kill and rape innocent people, I can't blame the British for wanting the border closed.:timeout:
Was that sarcastic? You know I'm usually as anti Islamic as it gets but even I wouldn't say that....:doh:

[Oberon]

Was that sarcastic? You know I'm usually as anti Islamic as it gets but even I wouldn't say that....:doh:

It's getting harder and harder to tell these days. :doh:

[Reece]

I suppose I did come on a bit strong, but there ya go!!:yep:

[Jimbuna]

Leave and Remain: The issues made simple.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36027205

[Eichhörnchen]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penda_of_Mercia

http://i.imgur.com/K8sfmzq.gif

[STEED]

^Bring back the Saxons. :)

[Rockstar]

and sea dragons.

[Jimbuna]

I'm hoping for the return of an earlier Thatcher....Boudica.

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BF618/eu-lie/image.jpg?w=620&c=1

[Jimbuna]

That must be some pretty good medication you're on STEED :)

[Oberon]

We'll have to sort something out with the Spanish if we do Brexit in regards to Gibraltar, one of our boats opened fire on a Spanish patrol boat the other day because it was 'hassling' a US SSBN. :doh:

[mapuc]

When we have those "election" in Denmark-Wow if you knew what kind of "terror-propaganda" both side came with

Of course both side has to try anything to get an advantage before the "election"

What make me sad is that a percentage of the people fall for this type of propaganda-stuff-Like they forgot their brain when they read/hear or see it.

Markus

[STEED]

That must be some pretty good medication you're on STEED :)

Want some. :)

I'm so fed up with the pro EU camp saying this and that, on one news site they made a reference to the price of beer and cheese will rocket up if we withdraw a few weeks ago.

[Reece]

Yeh but unfortunately there are enough idiots that will believe that hokum!!:doh:

[Buddahaid]

I just realized that for the UK to leave the EU is a very nationalistic cause that is, apparently for me, driven by those who vote labour, and what I would see as an american, a left vote. That is truly amazing to me as I see the left as being far less nationalistic. What strange times we are living in with the communications revolution.

[Eichhörnchen]

The Labour Party's traditional Constituency are working people who traditionally don't like being pushed around, even though there are often frictions within the Party itself between soft and hard socialist opinions.

Therefore they tend to get their backs up when it comes to things like the EU and its dictats; 'it was our boys who helped rescue Europe from the Nazis' kind of thing.

[Eichhörnchen]

the price of beer and cheese will rocket up if we withdraw a few weeks ago.

Don't like the sound of that :hmmm:

[Oberon]

The Labour Party's traditional Constituency are working people who traditionally don't like being pushed around, even though there are often frictions within the Party itself between soft and hard socialist opinions.

Therefore they tend to get their backs up when it comes to things like the EU and its dictats; 'it was our boys who helped rescue Europe from the Nazis' kind of thing.

Which is kind of funny because New Labour was quite a pro-European party, Corbyn Labour is a bit more fuzzy because he has been a bit more critical of the EU in the past but has been sort of forced to become more EU neutral since becoming the Labour Partys leader.

[HunterICX]

We'll have to sort something out with the Spanish if we do Brexit in regards to Gibraltar, one of our boats opened fire on a Spanish patrol boat the other day because it was 'hassling' a US SSBN. :doh:

Just call the Dutch Navy and it'll shell Malaga again :03:

[STEED]

Yeh but unfortunately there are enough idiots that will believe that hokum!!:doh:

And the worst thing about it is the media news who post it up on their sites without making a effort to bother checking if that is a news story or a load of bull.

Don't like the sound of that :hmmm:

I think its just a load of old bull to scare people to vote stay in.

[Oberon]

Just call the Dutch Navy and it'll shell Malaga again :03:

So that's how you wound up there! :hmmm: :O:

[Jimbuna]

Which is kind of funny because New Labour was quite a pro-European party, Corbyn Labour is a bit more fuzzy because he has been a bit more critical of the EU in the past but has been sort of forced to become more EU neutral since becoming the Labour Partys leader.

Easiest way to describe Corbyn is 'Trade Union Puppet'.....I've lived it and been involved in real life.

Mind you, Cameron could arguably be categorized in relation to big business and finance.

[BossMark]

David Cameron: Brexit could jeopardise peace in Europe

https://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/david-cameron-brexit-could-jeopardise-peace-in-europe-11364059821411



David Cameron will warn that Europe's peace could be jeopardised if Britain votes to leave the EU, as he suggests the referendum contest will form a pivotal moment in the continent's history.




Please stop scaremongering toffboy because no matter what you say I have already made my mind up what I am voting.

[Catfish]

...Please stop scaremongering toffboy because no matter what you say I have already made my mind up what I am voting.

This is where Cameron has it from, probably:
"Baron Evans of Weardale, the former director-general of MI5, and Sir John Sawers, the former head of MI6, say Brexit could also lead to “instability on the Continent”, compounding the current “economic difficulties, the migration crisis and a resurgent Russia”."

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/spy-chiefs-say-quitting-eu-is-security-risk-fgzgpgkgk :hmmm:

I don't think data exchange between police and secret services will be worse than it is now though, in case of England leaving. It already is on a century low :nope:

Apart from that i doubt Scotland and Ireland will leave the EU, regardless what England does.

[Oberon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvKiRYlDslQ

[Jimbuna]

I'd hate to think security information sharing ever got as bad as that between France and Belgium. In fact, IMHO the British security service is second to none in Europe.

[STEED]

Vote out and move forward.

Or

Vote in and stagnant and slowly go down the tubes that is happening now.


I made my mind up when it was still the EEC and now I can cast my vote. I am voting out and even if the vote out looses I can say in years to come you lot who voted in bought this mess on yourself's.

[Jimbuna]

"bought" being the very correct descriptive term :up:

[STEED]

Granted leaving is a shot in the dark but hey if we don't give it a try we will never know. :)

I will say both sides don't really know what could happen and are saying all kinds of things. The way I see it don't listen to any of them and just make your own mind up. :03:

[Jimbuna]

I tend to differ....listen to both sides then make an informed choice on the balance of your own reasoning and beliefs.

[STEED]

Fixed..:shifty: :03: :haha:

I tend to differ....listen to both sides then make an informed choice on the balance of your own reasoning and beliefs after knocking back 12 pints of beer 4 curries and 1 pot noodle.

Good point hard thinking on a empty stomach is a no go.

[Jimbuna]

I saw what you did there ya naughty old bugga :)

[STEED]

I saw what you did there ya naughty old bugga :)

Bet its a good 70% correct. :D :haha:

[Reece]

Yes Jim is just upset that you know him so well.:yep:

[Captain Jeff]

England is going to vote on whether or not they should leave the European Union. This vote is widely advertised and public knowledge. Knowing that England is upset enough to consider leaving, has the European Union offered to make any changes addressing English concerns? Have they offered England anything in an effort to keep England in the Union?

Whether or not the European Union wants to actually make changes in order to keep England would be up to all the members of the Union. The other members may or may not wish to live under the legal changes England desires. But if they aren't even considering anything that will address your concerns then your vote in the Brexit matter is clear. There's no reason to stay in a Union that simply does not care about your concerns.

Please forgive my American ignorance on this subject. Is the Union offering anything to England?

[BossMark]

I made my mind up when it was still the EEC and now I can cast my vote. I am voting out and even if the vote out looses I can say in years to come you lot who voted in bought this mess on yourself's.
I couldn't agree more

[Eichhörnchen]

So the EU is in such a precarious state that our staying in is the only thing preventing its collapse, huh? What kind of a club is that to belong to? And now Europe will apparently descend into war if we leave.

And we would no longer be able to assume that our 'special relationship' with the US counts for anything. Well I often hear that this 'special relationship' is in our own heads, and the average US citizen doesn't distinguish the Brits from any other European, so what's so special? My American nephew was once asked by a classmate "What language do they speak in England"... honest :O:

[Catfish]

... Knowing that England is upset enough to consider leaving, has the European Union offered to make any changes addressing English concerns? Have they offered England anything in an effort to keep England in the Union? [...]
Please forgive my American ignorance on this subject. Is the Union offering anything to England?

"Anything" lol, to make it short yes they have done that to a point calling it a membership is becoming ridiculous. "Wash me, but don't make me wet"

When you have too much exceptions the whole meaning of the Eu becomes compromised, and such behaviour serves as an example for other countries to demand their own special treatment, like the right wing Marie LePen of France, who already announced to exactly do what Cameron did, for France.

A European Union consisting of battling states with their own narrow-minded nationalist or chauvinist view demanding their special way does not make much sense, and such behaviour may well lead to a general crash of the EU. It is obvioulsy not old and settled enough to overcome nationalistic behaviour and hate.

Lots of "Brexit" stooges fuel the debate by sheer hate, and some other EU countries cannot look but in astonishment what is going on there. It seems the EU countries are considered to be the enemy, in England.

But if the EU lets itself blackmail by its own countries threatening with leave to push through their own interests, it is not worth much.

Better don't read on and be harrassed with facts, if your "opinion" stands.
"David Cameron claims to have obtained “a special status” for Britain in the EU. But the agreement reached in Brussels last night is not just a “British deal” — it affects all Europeans and could have consequences more far-reaching than anyone expected. Three sources of “contagion”, in particular, have so far been underestimated."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb4326aa-d749-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz48Ejd3lRw

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/bb4326aa-d749-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz48FFtrtip

[Jimbuna]

"Anything" lol, to make it short yes they have done that to a point calling it a membership is becoming ridiculous. "Wash me, but don't make me wet"

When you have too much exceptions the whole meaning of the Eu becomes compromised, and such behaviour serves as an example for other countries to demand their own special treatment, like the right wing Marie LePen of France, who already announced to exactly do what Cameron did, for France.

A European Union consisting of battling states with their own narrow-minded nationalist or chauvinist view demanding their special way does not make much sense, and such behaviour may well lead to a general crash of the EU. It is obvioulsy not old and settled enough to overcome nationalistic behaviour and hate.

Lots of "Brexit" stooges fuel the debate by sheer hate, and some other EU countries cannot look but in astonishment what is going on there. It seems the EU countries are considered to be the enemy, in England.

But if the EU lets itself blackmail by its own countries threatening with leave to push through their own interests, it is not worth much.

Better don't read on and be harrassed with facts, if your "opinion" stands.
"David Cameron claims to have obtained “a special status” for Britain in the EU. But the agreement reached in Brussels last night is not just a “British deal” — it affects all Europeans and could have consequences more far-reaching than anyone expected. Three sources of “contagion”, in particular, have so far been underestimated."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb4326aa-d749-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz48Ejd3lRw

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/bb4326aa-d749-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz48FFtrtip

There is so much of the above viewed in the UK as being as equally as narrow-minded nationalist or chauvinist by other member states....France and Germany to name two.

The overriding fear of Merkel et al is quite simple....."Will this be the beginning of others wanting 'special status or even leaving'?

I really don't see the EU breaking up totally, certainly whilst so many states receive more than they put in.

Just look at those queuing up to join:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

Kosovo isn't even recognised as an independent country by all the current EU members.

Fun times ahead I suspect but the good folk of Germany and France for example should be asking their leadership who is going to foot the bill.

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFAIH/obey-me-or-i-will-put-your-taxes-up/image.jpg?w=615&c=1

[Captain Jeff]

"Anything" lol, to make it short yes they have done that to a point calling it a membership is becoming ridiculous. "Wash me, but don't make me wet"

When you have too much exceptions the whole meaning of the Eu becomes compromised, and such behaviour serves as an example for other countries to demand their own special treatment, like the right wing Marie LePen of France, who already announced to exactly do what Cameron did, for France.

A European Union consisting of battling states with their own narrow-minded nationalist or chauvinist view demanding their special way does not make much sense, and such behaviour may well lead to a general crash of the EU. It is obvioulsy not old and settled enough to overcome nationalistic behaviour and hate.

Lots of "Brexit" stooges fuel the debate by sheer hate, and some other EU countries cannot look but in astonishment what is going on there. It seems the EU countries are considered to be the enemy, in England.

But if the EU lets itself blackmail by its own countries threatening with leave to push through their own interests, it is not worth much.

Better don't read on and be harrassed with facts, if your "opinion" stands.
"David Cameron claims to have obtained “a special status” for Britain in the EU. But the agreement reached in Brussels last night is not just a “British deal” — it affects all Europeans and could have consequences more far-reaching than anyone expected. Three sources of “contagion”, in particular, have so far been underestimated."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb4326aa-d749-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz48Ejd3lRw

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/bb4326aa-d749-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz48FFtrtip

So the European Union has addressed English concerns. The Union has at least brought them up for debate by the other member countries. That's what I did not know. If the Union were simply ignoring England, then England's choice would be clear. But the Union discussing the changes wanted by England shows they don't just automatically dismiss English concerns.

Still...England has to decide if they want to live in the European Union. If the other members of the Union reject the proposed changes, they may have listened but it still may be a way of life not wanted in England. I guess that would be their real decision. Does England want the way of life it has as a member of the Union or do they think they are better off going their own way?

"A Union consisting of battling states with their own narrow-minded...view demanding their special way does not make much sense." Now it's my turn for an LOL. We've seen this kind of governing body over here on this side of the Atlantic. We call it the United States of America. Over here, we have states that will shut the whole government down unless the government focuses solely on what they want. Is this a flaw in our system of government or is it just a flaw in people's current way of thinking? Lot's of extremism in the world today.

Anyway...thank you for your reply. It cleared up some things I did not know about the issue.

[STEED]

Gordon Brown has called on David Cameron to lead a European-wide clampdown on tax havens, insisting that Britain should be "leading not leaving" the European Union.

http://news.sky.com/story/1693975/brown-britain-should-lead-not-leave-eu

Failed Chancellor failed Prime Minster. :rolleyes:

[Oberon]

The Daily Excess shows their top eight of the 150 EU laws that are 'Ruining Britain'.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bq524p_IgAA06CP.png:large

The horror! :har:

[Schroeder]

The Daily Excess shows their top eight of the 150 EU laws that are 'Ruining Britain'.



The horror! :har:
I can hardly see how Britain can survive under such rules...they're totally ruining your country for sure.:har:

[Betonov]

If that's the top of the 150, what are the bottom:

-a british pasport must inlcude at least one page and 2 covers
-ships crossing the Channel must be watertight bellow water line
-customs search dogs must not be repainted cats

[Catfish]

If that's the top of the 150, what are the bottom:

-a british pasport must inlcude at least one page and 2 covers
-ships crossing the Channel must be watertight bellow water line
-customs search dogs must not be repainted cats

^ :rotfl2:

I know i'm eeevil, but..
maybe they have forgotten to build all those things, since England only cares for banks and money? :O:

Oops drone incoming ...

[STEED]

The Express and Mail are just stupid papers that will do anything to get a sale. All the newspapers in this country are going down hill every year their sales figures show this. I forget the name of a new newspaper that was launched earlier this year has now folded. Sloppy politicians from both in and out camps quote newspapers as if the newspaper is 100% correct as if.

[Jimbuna]

I'm currently laughing at the absolute hypocrisy of Corbyn backing the 'IN' campaign when for most of his political career he has consistently called for the UK to leave.

[Catfish]

I'm currently laughing at the absolute hypocrisy of Corbyn backing the 'IN' campaign when for most of his political career he has consistently called for the UK to leave.


They do not change their views, the views are adapted!
Just like the prices in the bills you get.. :shifty:

[Jimbuna]

They do not change their views, the views are adapted!
Just like the prices in the bills you get.. :shifty:

Well this jokers views were certainly changed by the trade unions whose block membership vote practically dictates Labour Party policy.

[STEED]

I see that moron Mark Carney head of the BoE has jumped on the doom munger wagon.

[Oberon]

I see that moron Mark Carney head of the BoE has jumped on the doom munger wagon.

Well, he's not exactly wrong, any UK exit from the EU will cause instability and uncertainty in the markets, you don't need to be a financial expert to know that. Instability and uncertainty leads to people not spending, and people not spending leads to recession. :dead:

[Torplexed]

British voters have a genuinely difficult decision to make this June. But it's their call.

My personal point of view is that Brexit would be bad for the UK, because it's easy to see the drawbacks while ignoring the gains (because the gains have been BORING). Stability is boring by its very nature, but my feeling is replacing war and national rivalry with banal bureaucratic discussions about the price and proper shape of bananas might, in fact, be quite an achievement.

But, since at least one of the choices might work out well for the UK, it's not nearly as difficult, or unsavory, as the decision facing American voters in November. A pathologically dishonest and corrupt Democrat vs. a psychotic, economically illiterate, half-baked Republican.

Would you care for Hemlock or Arsenic with your dinner sir? :88)

[Eichhörnchen]

But, since at least one of the choices might work out well for the UK, it's not nearly as difficult, or unsavory, as the decision facing American voters in November. A pathologically dishonest and corrupt Democrat vs. a psychotic, economically illiterate, half-baked Republican.

Would you care for Hemlock or Arsenic with your dinner sir? :88)

Yeah... good luck with that :har:

[Jimbuna]

British voters have a genuinely difficult decision to make this June. But it's their call.

My personal point of view is that Brexit would be bad for the UK, because it's easy to see the drawbacks while ignoring the gains (because the gains have been BORING). Stability is boring by its very nature, but my feeling is replacing war and national rivalry with banal bureaucratic discussions about the price and proper shape of bananas might, in fact, be quite an achievement.

But, since at least one of the choices might work out well for the UK, it's not nearly as difficult, or unsavory, as the decision facing American voters in November. A pathologically dishonest and corrupt Democrat vs. a psychotic, economically illiterate, half-baked Republican.

Would you care for Hemlock or Arsenic with your dinner sir? :88)

Excellent summarisation :yeah:

[STEED]

The UK is not the whipping boy of the EU, time our bloody politicians stood up to the EU or are they on the take.

The consequences of Britain quitting the European Union would be "pretty bad to very, very bad", the head of the International Monetary Fund has warned.

The same Christine Lagarde who was reported back last Dec to stand trial in France.

IMF chief Christine Lagarde is to stand trial in France for alleged negligence over a €404m ($438m; £294m) payment to a businessman in 2008.
She was finance minister in President Nicolas Sarkozy's government at the time of the compensation award to Bernard Tapie for the sale of a firm.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35121022

[Jimbuna]

The UK is not the whipping boy of the EU, time our bloody politicians stood up to the EU or are they on the take.


That would probably depend on whether you're referring to bribes or expenses :hmm2:

[STEED]

That would probably depend on whether you're referring to bribes or expenses :hmm2:

I think we should clean out the garbage top to bottom but as you know jim you got better chance seeing a flock of flying pigs...:rolleyes:

[BossMark]

I made my mind up years ago what I would vote.......and scaremongering will not change it.

[Reece]

Just follow STEED's advice & you'll be right BossMark.:yep:

[STEED]

John Major: 'Brexit Leaders Morphing Into UKIP'
The former PM accuses Vote Leave campaigners of creating divisions in society by using immigration as their "trump card".

http://news.sky.com/story/1695273/john-major-brexit-leaders-morphing-into-ukip

And your stay in side have done nothing but preach doom and gloom and the end of the world! :stare:

The fact is neither side has a clue on what will happen and not all these what ifs flying around.

My personal view is the UK and Europe should get rid of that corrupt organization the EU.

[BossMark]

Just follow STEED's advice & you'll be right BossMark.:yep:
I intend to :D :yep:

[Jimbuna]

The UK's EU referendum: All you need to know:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

[STEED]

The UK's EU referendum: All you need to know:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

I don't use Flash its history and a open door to hackers. :03:

[Oberon]

I don't use Flash its history and a open door to hackers. :03:

And I suppose that's the EUs fault as well? :hmmm:

[STEED]

And I suppose that's the EUs fault as well? :hmmm:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cwgOXzaW8lY/UfgexHThr5I/AAAAAAAABs8/vXzBSdwMH-k/s1600/AnimatedLaughingSmiley.gif

Not this time. :)

[STEED]

David Cameron has warned voters that leaving the EU is the "last thing the economy needs" and would be a vote for recession.

Manufacturing is in recession.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/11/uk-manufacturing-sector-falls-back-into-recession-steel

[Reece]

And I suppose that's the EUs fault as well? :hmmm:
If the shoe fits!!:yep:

[Oberon]

Boris compares EUs goals to Hitlers:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/60096414.jpg

[MGR1]

He's getting more hysterical by the week, that one......

In the meantime, I have a feeling of déjà vu about the whole EU referendum debate - I'm not the only one:

Also from the BBC website:


EU referendum has a familiar feel to it in Scotland

By Sarah Smith, Scotland editor

Will anyone ever make a film based on the EU referendum? Probably not. But if someone is interested there are lots of people in Scotland who could help them write the script. Because as the EU referendum campaign enters its final act many of us here in Scotland feel like we have seen this movie before. The story seems eerily familiar as it so closely mirrors the plot of the Scottish independence referendum. It even has a remarkably similar cast of characters from the Queen to Barack Obama.

Leave campaigners are furious that the governor of the Bank of England has stepped into a highly political debate with his warning that "a vote to leave the EU could have material economic effects". But they probably shouldn't be surprised.

He wasn't afraid to weigh in to the Scottish referendum campaign - most notably when he warned that the SNP's desired plan to share the pound with the rest of the UK in a currency union would be "incompatible with sovereignty" which was seen as a sizeable blow to pro-independence campaigners at the time.
The potential economic consequences of leaving a large trading block are central to the EU debate. Just as they were in the Scottish referendum. And the Treasury too has played its part before in warning voters how much leaving might cost them.
Recently the Treasury published it's analysis saying that leaving the EU would cost UK households £4,300. Claims which were immediately rubbished as scaremongering by opponents.

'Project Fear'
The Treasury got a similar response from the SNP when they published their predictions that Scottish independence could cost every household in £2,000.
Remain campaigners across the UK have been accused of running "Project Fear", a name that also came from the Scottish referendum. It started as an in joke among Better Together staffers that was turned against them. Now the term has gone nationwide to be used against as those who want to stay inside the EU.

As Better Together learned the hard way it is hard to make an energetic and enthusiastic case for the status quo. Easier to warn about the dangers of a leap in the dark.
Alongside economic warnings, security fears are another reliable way to try to motivate voters. Five former NATO secretaries general have warned that a Brexit would be " very troubling" and would "give succour to the West's enemies."

Sound familiar? It should. Remember when George Robertson - one of those who signed the anti-Brexit letter - warned that Scottish independence would have a "cataclysmic" impact on the world. Britain's enemies would "cheer loudest" he said and "the forces of darkness would simply love it" if the UK broke up.

President Obama was criticised for sticking his oar into the British political process when he made clear his preference for the UK staying in the EU. But he too has form. He stood beside David Cameron a few months before the Scottish vote and said "We obviously have a deep interest in making sure that one of the closest allies we will ever have remains a strong, robust, united and effective partner."

On both occasions it was much debated how much he really cared about the result or whether he just doing a favour for the PM.

Buckingham Palace insists the Queen is completely neutral over the referendum and vigorously denied newspaper suggestions she had been critical of the EU in private conversations. Just as royal officials denied that Prince William was expressing any view on the EU when he made a speech to diplomats at the Foreign Office saying: "In an increasingly turbulent world, our ability to unite in common action with other nations is essential."

Kensington Palace said the Duke was not talking about the EU. "This speech was not about Europe," a palace spokesman said. "He does not mention the word Europe once."

'Think carefully'
But cast your mind back to the Sunday before the Scottish independence vote and the comment the Queen made to a well-wisher outside Crathie Church near Balmoral.

"Well, I hope people will think very carefully about the future," she said, in remarks that sounded studiously neutral but were welcomed by No campaigners as a warning about the risks of independence. It emerged later that Britain's most senior civil servant and the Queen's private secretary had carefully crafted the statement after senior figures in Whitehall and Downing Street became very worried about the outcome of the vote.

So if the EU referendum continues to follow the Scottish script what we can we expect in the weeks to come? Will we see a celebrity intervention quite so stellar as when David Bowie sent Kate Moss to the Brit Awards to deliver the message "Scotland stay with us".

If there a poll in the last fortnight before the vote that shows the Leave side in the lead ahead expect the kind of political panic amongst the leaders of all the major parties that led to "the Vow" in Scotland. And don't expect the result to put an end to the debate.

In 20 months since the independence referendum Scottish politics has been turned on its head. The SNP have never been so popular as since they lost the vote in September 2014.

Anyone who thinks the EU referendum will put an end to the debate over Britain's future in Europe - in or out - may want to take a quick a glance north of the border. Where politicians are already fighting over when to have another referendum.


Sooo, it could safely be said the those who support the UK leaving the EU are now in exactly the same position as the SNP and it's supporters during the Indy Ref.

Mike.:hmmm:

[Catfish]

Fearmongering is a thing that mostly works, but sometimes it also may backfire :yep:

Having a clouded abstract fear of migrants and anything foreign as reasons to leave the EU is also fearmongering.

Tell me, will Scotland and/or Ireland remain in the EU, if England wants to leave? Not possible eh? After all it's the UK!

And then ..
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/unity_zpsfjpriato.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/unity_zpsfjpriato.jpg.html)

[Skybird]

This is what Johnson said, and he is fully correct if you take the words for what they say,not more, not less:

"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods.But fundamentally what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe.
There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void."


Argue with that. You can't. And that the EU's plans for itself just causes rifts and more and more conflicts and create quite the opposite of what the propagandists claim they want to achieve, speaks volumes for itself. The EU as it wants to be - an enforced centralised government with state-like structures but with appeasing political alibi puppet constructions in member states preventing to openly criticise and oppose the EU centralised power - has enver been wantred by the vast majoprity of European regional populations, it has always been a hobby project of socialist ideologists and elitist narcissists only.


Free trade between member states - that is what one should have left it to. Everything aiming beyond that is just a way to want centralised dictatorship without calling it that. Practically everywhere in Europe, scepticism and hostility and ridicule for the EU is growing amongst the civilian populations. To force half a billion people of so many and sometimes quite fundamental cultural differences and deeply-rooting, hitorically grown self-identities under just one political and quite feudal framework, must necessarily lead to growing opposition, hostility, and finally conflict. The further the EU pushes these policies, the greater the likelihood that it will result in major military wars in Europe again - within the timeframe of this century, even when public schools with party-commanded curricula try their best of training and forming a wanted politically conformal future generation that obeys and is satisfied to follow the PC and EU rules in a servile state of mind.



Infantilization trumps everything today. But it will backfire terribly later this century. I hope I am not around anymore when that begins.

[Oberon]

Don't worry Skybird, the Muslim hordes will get you before the EU doomsquads do. :yep:

[Catfish]

Don't worry Skybird, the Muslim hordes will get you before the EU doomsquads do. :yep:

^ That,

Wasn't the theme befor about fearmongering? Also, what you, Skybird, says, perfectly proves Torplexed' point. You really seem to be bored that all the doomsday scenarios do not get off like "predicted" (by certain some people).
Some prefer egoistic national states against a federation believing in common sense, ethics and trade. So let's work against that.

B.t.w. did you know that economy strives here, because there have been ten thousands of jobs created just of all because of and by immigrants.

It is soo boring that all live in peace that anything else seems preferable. May you live in interesting times, but please exclude me.

[Betonov]

"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically.


Argue with that. You can't.


Napoleon and Hitler went to conquer Europe by force and death.
I saw no one dying, no one bombing, no one invading and no one tying anti-EU people to a tree in front of a firing squad.

Johnson is not only a moron for using such a comparison, but also an ******* for pissing on the few millions that died during those times when Europe tried to do it's best to tear itself apart (hint: not the last 60 years).

You can argue with that.

[MGR1]

Fearmongering is a thing that mostly works, but sometimes it also may backfire :yep:

Having a clouded abstract fear of migrants and anything foreign as reasons to leave the EU is also fearmongering.

Tell me, will Scotland and/or Ireland remain in the EU, if England wants to leave? Not possible eh? After all it's the UK!

And then ..

----Snip Image----



Which Ireland are you asking about? You need to be a bit more precise, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are politically distinct entities. I'm assumimg you mean Northern Ireland? :O:

Judging from polling data, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are showing majorities of different sizes for Remain, whilst England is more split.

London generally shows a majority Remain, whilst there appears to be a difference between the rest of England's urban areas and it's rural ones, with the former showing more pro-EU and the latter more anti-EU sentiment.

As for Scotland, your guess about it's reaction to "being pulled out of the EU against it's will" is as good as mine. Despite what the SNP thinks is the case, there are distinct differences within Scotland over the EU. Again there's a rural/urban split, but also a south/middle/north one as well, though these are much less clearly defined.

I think that although there will be a majority Remain from Scotland, the Leave vote will be bigger than many think.:hmmm:

As for Wales and Northern Ireland, you'd have to ask a Welshman and an Ulsterman to gauge opinion.

At the end of the day, it's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that's making the decision, not it's individual components. The SNP were told that bluntly, so the same applies to English nationalists as well.

Mike.:)

[Catfish]

^ thanks for explaining :)

Great Britain, Commonwealth, the UK, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (think the two latter are the same :03:)

So Australia has no say in this matter .. because i saw they were also in the EU song contest yesterday. The EU wants to rule the world i tell you :03::haha:

[Jimbuna]

I did post this earlier:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2404656&postcount=5073

[Betonov]

If I was a Brit, I'd tell the brexit side to prove to me that getting out is better, without the fearmongering.
If they'd fail I'd vote to stay in for the reason that

A) if they're unable to prove to me with facts and without playing my emotions, it means that there's no objective reason to get out
B) such colossal changes cost a lot of taxpayers money


If I was a Brit

[Skybird]

"Fearmongering". When recalling from what I occasionally read in or about the British press: the partially totally absurd, hilarious, sometimes even hysteric "arguments" of pro EU activists and politicians - often involving fantasy figures pulled out of astronomy books -, then I am stunned by how willingly people close one eye to stay blind on that side, while accusing others of "fearmongering". If I were a Brit, I would feel offended by what XXL-sized bricks of concrete are being thrown at my intelligence by these "leaders".

Yelling the loudest, and doing it often enough, usually works, so I think they Brits will let this chance pass. The demography in Britain is also pointing towards an aging society (like in Germany to the extreme), and with age comes the wish to stay with what is known even if it is a known evil, the desire to not take risks even if doing nothing is even riskier, and to stay with the known comfort and hoping that the ship will not sink this time after it struck the iceberg. I expect the Brits to vote for staying, therefore. I would hope differently, of course, since a Brexit would deliver a good blow to the EU, but I think it will not happen, not so much due to arguments of reason but because to human psychology is against it. Herds and swarms tend to stay together even when collectively heading towards "DRAMA", and this self-dynamic will help Cameron to scare his old, weakening and increasingly older herd into voting what he needs to keep his job and lifeplan for his career. Also, I would expect to learn about the British youth the same what huge studies last year and this years shown about German young people: that many - over here: the vast majority - would prefer to search a career in state's offices after school (due to the imagined safety that brings even if an even stronger and costkly state and galloping bureaucracy ruins the finances even more and does nothign to create real materila values and assets). And for that kind of a life plan, the bigger an EU is and the more bureaucracy there is spilled into the world, the better. In the long haul, this is an illusory calculation, nevertheless one that must be extremely tempting.

I will be happy if getting proven wrong. Brits have the reputation to be a bit stubborn and a bit excentric and not caring for needing to stay alone. C'mon, this is a good time to show the world that these characteristics have not been forgotten. ;) One of the things I have learned in these 50 years of life is that all too often it pays off to not swim with the mainstream, but to plot a course of one's own, even doing the opposite of what all others do. And thus I tend to strongly dislike strong collectives.

[Oberon]

I will be happy

http://blogs.nvcc.edu/elife/files/2014/03/citation-needed.jpg

[mapuc]

Whatever you are against or for EU, EU is working to wards a united Europe, without no border, one currency and a central based government.

Schengen and Euro is some of many steps to wards this goal

Markus

[Rockstar]

Well, if the current flood of immigrants tells us anything Europe already is without borders. BTW hows that and the Euro dollar working out for ya?

[Betonov]

Whatever you are against or for EU, EU is working to wards a united Europe, without no border, one currency and a central based government.

Schengen and Euro is some of many steps to wards this goal

Markus

EU is also a quagmire of bureocracy and cronysism with people running it that make up dumb laws and regulations just to justify their own existance.
Not that dangerous compared to what Europe had to deal with in the past, it is destroying the principles EU was made on.
EU needs to be rolled back to a strictly economic entity. Open borders, common fund for development/crisis management and effort free tourism.

And burn the parliament down, it's enough I have to support the one in Ljubljana :/\\!!

[Betonov]

Well, if the current flood of immigrants tells us anything Europe already is without borders. BTW hows that and the Euro dollar working out for ya?

My municipality had 8km of roads and acompanying infrastructure completely rebuilt and modernised with EU funds. Funding that we would never see from our own state (we do have a mayor non-aligned with any other party)

So it's working out just fine, thanky you

[Oberon]

EU needs to be rolled back to a strictly economic entity. Open borders, common fund for development/crisis management and effort free tourism.

That's probably not a bad idea, and if Trump gets in it probably wouldn't hurt to increase military ties and beef that up because NATO is heavily reliant on the US and if the US starts to withdraw from NATO then Europe has got problems.

[Betonov]

That's probably not a bad idea, and if Trump gets in it probably wouldn't hurt to increase military ties and beef that up because NATO is heavily reliant on the US and if the US starts to withdraw from NATO then Europe has got problems.

Increased militarisation may solve some of our uneployment problems :03:

[mapuc]

Well, if the current flood of immigrants tells us anything Europe already is without borders. BTW hows that and the Euro dollar working out for ya?


Schengen was a fiasco from the start.

Both Denmark and Sweden has said no the Euro dollar through referendum

Markus

[Oberon]

Increased militarisation may solve some of our uneployment problems :03:

I'll get on the phone to Belgrade. :O:

[Betonov]

Schengen was a fiasco from the start.



Schengen is the best thing ever, I can drive from Slovenia to the Netherlands without those tiring customs stops.
Do you even realise what a traffic jam Bosnians make when they migrate to Germany to work :dead:

I'll get on the phone to Belgrade. :O:

Yeah, Albania is due for some culling.

[Oberon]

Yeah, Albania is due for some culling.

But who else is going to operate the car export/import business?

[Betonov]

But who else is going to operate the car export/import business?

Serbs, duh

[Oberon]

Serbs, duh

I thought they were purely in the kebab export business? :hmmm: :O:

[mapuc]

Schengen is the best thing ever, I can drive from Slovenia to the Netherlands without those tiring customs stops.
Do you even realise what a traffic jam Bosnians make when they migrate to Germany to work :dead:


If Greece and Italy did what they was "ordered to do" For decades there has been a mini-Schengen between the Scandinavian countries-Because Greece have fully open their doors into EU-Sweden and Denmark had no other choice to "re-install" their border control-No I have to show my passport when I have to visit my friends in Germany(or do some shopping) and if I want to visit my mom in Sweden.

That's why I say Schengen was a fiasco from the start-Meaning those who came up with the idea of Schengen didn't think hard enough.

Markus

[Betonov]

I remember when I was a child in the nineties.
Customs control was still in place and Slovenia was still lacking a more modern market we have today and some luxuries had to be bought in Austria.
To avoid paying custom fees we kept our mouth shut at what we bought and hoped we wouldn't be checked and to prevent me from acidentally being honest to the customs officer (like small children tend to be), I had to ride in the back trunk.
I can still drive the Korensko sedlo pass blindfolded :know:

[Schroeder]

EU is also a quagmire of bureocracy and cronysism with people running it that make up dumb laws and regulations just to justify their own existance.
Not that dangerous compared to what Europe had to deal with in the past, it is destroying the principles EU was made on.
EU needs to be rolled back to a strictly economic entity. Open borders, common fund for development/crisis management and effort free tourism.

And burn the parliament down, it's enough I have to support the one in Ljubljana :/\\!!
Exactly. Can I vote you in the next election?:up:

[Betonov]

Exactly. Can I vote you in the next election?:up:

Imperial party:

-open borders for EU members, duty free flow of goods
-reintroduction to work visas and immigration quotas between members
-advanced screening for outside immigrants, doctors and engineers to be accepted before ditch diggers (we already have JCBs and Bosnians)
-one strike and you're out penal system for immigrants and first generation immigrant born
-member self-governance
-EU laws limited to inter-member interactions and basic human rights
-counsil of Europe formed by independent intelectuals and experts, rotated yearly, voluntary work for the good of the continent
-counsils job is to gently guide Europe forward, give advice to the Emperor, weigh in options, provide a common anchor during a crisis
-increased spending on practical and engineering courses for education, we need doctors, engineers and high yield farmers
-art schools accesible only to those that have shown talent
-reality shows, ''documentaries'', tabloids, etc. will pay special tax which will fund independent expert media to counter the spread of ignorance
-drinking water and internet to every home

and most importantly

-a kukri will be used to shave the fat off the buerocracy, no parliament, no large administrations, just me and some support staff. I think Europe can handle to upkeep one medium house, large garden and 10 people :03:

http://i.imgur.com/5XWOhPZ.jpg?1

[Oberon]

For the love of god, this time put some bullet proofing around your monarchs, ok?

[Betonov]

Everyone will carry a kukri at all times.
That should be enough and easy on the taxpayers.

[Jimbuna]

Everyone will carry a kukri at all times.
That should be enough and easy on the taxpayers.

We already have a brigade totalling nearly four thousand to do that for us.

[Schroeder]

Imperial party:

-open borders for EU members, duty free flow of goods
-reintroduction to work visas and immigration quotas between members
-advanced screening for outside immigrants, doctors and engineers to be accepted before ditch diggers (we already have JCBs and Bosnians)
-one strike and you're out penal system for immigrants and first generation immigrant born
-member self-governance
-EU laws limited to inter-member interactions and basic human rights
-counsil of Europe formed by independent intelectuals and experts, rotated yearly, voluntary work for the good of the continent
-counsils job is to gently guide Europe forward, give advice to the Emperor, weigh in options, provide a common anchor during a crisis
-increased spending on practical and engineering courses for education, we need doctors, engineers and high yield farmers
-art schools accesible only to those that have shown talent
-reality shows, ''documentaries'', tabloids, etc. will pay special tax which will fund independent expert media to counter the spread of ignorance
-drinking water and internet to every home


That sounds a lot better than the crap most other parties come up with....:/\\!!

[Catfish]

hehe sonds reasonable :up:

But maybe England wants to exit because it sees a war coming, with Russia? :hmmm:
With the new cold war, experts say that with western sanctions and the oil price dropping, it will be bankrupt in roughly 18 months. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

hehe sonds reasonable :up:

But maybe England wants to exit because it sees a war coming, with Russia? :hmmm:
With the new cold war, experts say that with western sanctions and the oil price dropping, it will be bankrupt in roughly 18 months. :hmmm:

I wouldn't have thought it likely, but can't utterly discount it. However, exiting the EU wouldn't keep us out of a war with Russia because of NATO, so that's a defunct point really.
Coming back to NATO though, I honestly have some concerns about its viability long term depending on the US elections, I think..and there's a growing portion of isolationist Americans who would agree with me, that Europe needs to strengthen its military ties within Europe but outside of NATO. In short, Europe needs to militarily stand on its own two legs.
However, it's a double edged sword, because certain former Warsaw Pact nations are going to be a little bit more 'pro-active' when it comes to defending against any Russian 'recon'. Especially, at this moment in time, I wouldn't trust the current Polish 'government' as far as I could throw it.
Still, perhaps Clinton will get in, and she'll take the same route with NATO that all her predecessors have. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Hitler isn't the only lesson from Europe:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a6a54c52-1c66-11e6-bf22-78061c6f2b5c#

I love this quote:

Yes, Hitler tried to dominate Europe. Yes, it led to war. The trouble is, most things in European history led to war.It's not wrong. :haha:

EDIT: Balls, sorry, didn't realise the rest of the article was hidden behind a paywall...I hate that with news media sites. Still, the opening paragraph raises a good point, that both trying to tighten and loosen EU control over Europe could very well lead to war, because that is what we Europeans have spent the last three millennia doing.

[STEED]

I urge all Brits stop listening to the in/out camps both sides mash the truth with lies and lots of BS. Make your own mind up and tell these politicians to take a running jump into a pond. As I may already said both sides have no idea what will happen if we leave the EU. Don't let these B'stards tell you how to vote, politicians are the scum of the earth feathering their own nests.

:)

[BossMark]

I urge all Brits stop listening to the in/out camps both sides mash the truth with lies and lots of BS. Make your own mind up and tell these politicians to take a running jump into a pond. As I may already said both sides have no idea what will happen if we leave the EU. Don't let these B'stards tell you how to vote, politicians are the scum of the earth feathering their own nests.

:)
Sod them all scaremongering don't bother me.

[Reece]

That's right, just vote out!!!:yeah:

[STEED]

That's right, just vote out!!!:yeah:

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFMD2/pint/image.jpg?w=462&c=1

[STEED]

Joking aside if you vote in or out please make your own mind up yourself and don't let these jokers tell you how to vote.

[Jimbuna]

Not seen you on the tv yet STEED :hmm2:

[STEED]

Not seen you on the tv yet STEED :hmm2:

I'm not a brain dead on the take politician jim. :)

[Jimbuna]

I'm not a brain dead on the take politician jim. :)

http://i.imgur.com/1zD7n9u.jpg

[Reece]

One of the biggest reasons to vote out is to keep your independence, no offense to the EU but you are British, what would Churchill do?:hmmm:

This is entirely my opinion, and not being English, (my wife is though) should probably butt out!!:oops:

[Jimbuna]

One of the biggest reasons to vote out is to keep your independence, no offense to the EU but you are British, what would Churchill do?:hmmm:



Strange as it may seem....

Now Churchill's grandson has entered the fray to tell the BBC that he believes Churchill would be voting to stay in the EU were he alive today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36253224

[Oberon]

‘Hard as it is to say now.. I look forward to a United States of Europe, in which the barriers between the nations will be greatly minimised and unrestricted travel will be possible.’

‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’

‘There is no reason for us not to succeed in achieving our goal and laying the foundation of a United Europe. A Europe whose moral design will win the respect and acknowledgement of all humanity, and whose physical strength will be such that no person will dare to disturb it as it marches peacefully towards the future.’

‘The British Government have rightly stated that they cannot commit this country to entering any European Union without the agreement of the other members of the British Commonwealth. We all agree with that statement. But no time must be lost in discussing the question with the Dominions and seeking to convince them that their interests as well as ours lie in a United Europe.’

`The French Foreign Minister, M. Schuman, declared in the French Parliament this week that, ‘Without Britain there can be no Europe.’ This is entirely true. But our friends on the Continent need have no misgivings. Britain is an integral part of Europe, and we mean to play our part in the revival of her prosperity and greatness.’

‘We are prepared to consider and, if convinced, to accept the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and the safeguards… national sovereignty is not inviolable, and it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the lands finding their way home together.’

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/a-euro-sceptic-churchill-never-1365239.html

http://www.military-print.co.uk/images/user/brit%20pc%207.JPG

[STEED]

Well well well look at what I got..

THE 2016 EU Referendum Voting Guide published by The Electoral Commission

Take a look at page 4 and 5 now where are your eyes drawn to? Yes page 4 and why?

Its noughing to do in what they are saying its the Fonts, colours and shorter paragraphs which draw you in a subliminal way because page 4 looks :cool: and page 5 looks like :zzz:.

Typical.

BTW: If it was the other way around I would still point it out here. :arrgh!:

[STEED]

Well blow me down it just came up on the radio on LBC and the presenter was shocked by this.

I rest my case.:smug:

[Eichhörnchen]

Some new research apparently reveals that the British public are far more concerned about how this issue, either way, will impact on their PERSONAL finances (food and fuel bills etc) than the broader questions of immigration and the economy.

Let's now see just how long it takes for the Posh Boys to bring out a new forecast of how badly off we'll all be following a Brexit, or maybe they'll even start offering us money if we vote to stay in.



http://i.imgur.com/C7aFx4Y.jpg "Hey guess what, peeps: your houses is gonna be worth 10 to 18 percent less if we leave the EU, innit?"

[STEED]

http://i.imgur.com/C7aFx4Y.jpg "Hey guess what, peeps: your houses is gonna be worth 10 to 18 percent less if we leave the EU, innit?"

Good..the housing market is over inflated and the London housing market bubble will cause real problems if that one bursts. George PONZI Osborn's right to buy scam is based on the American sub prime Ponzi that blew up in 2007/8. Not only that old Gids has said on a few occasions he is worried by the housing market prices that keep going up, what a two face hypocrite old Gids is.

[Jimbuna]

The cost of housing is of little or no relevance to me, mine being paid for and the deeds stored in a safe and secure location.

Up to my kids what will become of it when I'm gone.

Shame some of the mega rich oligarchs etc. might suffer though :smug:

[Eichhörnchen]

He knows us older folks are already decided so he's now focussed on scaring new mortgagees :nope:

[Jimbuna]

The older you are the more likely you are to vote in an election or referendum.

According to the 'experts' anyway.

[Skybird]

One thing is certain. If the Brits make the wrong choice, Germany will invade again.

:88)

And if its the other choice, we do it anyway.

:huh:

So go ahead with your choosing, but remember: you decide your own destiny.

:O:

[STEED]

One thing is certain. If the Brits make the wrong choice, Germany will invade again.

What, the invasion of German porn in the 1980's :hmmm:

[Betonov]

The Germans Schlieffen plan us every summer to get to Croatia, I wouldn't worry to much about it

[Eichhörnchen]

The older you are the more likely you are to vote in an election or referendum.

According to the 'experts' anyway.

That's the truth, so what better way of galvanizing the younger generation than to scare the crap out of them? :)

[STEED]

Old farts will not be voting as you lot are way too busy screaming and ranting at the TV the radio the news papers and the world in general. :03: :haha:

[Oberon]

you lot are way too busy screaming and ranting at the TV the radio the news papers and the world in general. :03: :haha:

Says the man who screams and rants at the TV, the radio, the news papers and the world in general. :O:

[STEED]

Says the man who screams and rants at the TV, the radio, the news papers and the world in general. :O:


https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFOWH/hey-i-got-a-licence-to-moan-and-grown-you-know/image.jpg?w=586&c=1

[STEED]

Household bills for food and clothing will rise by an average of £220 a year if we leave the EU, according to the Prime Minister.

http://news.sky.com/story/1700107/brexit-will-hit-you-at-the-checkout-pm-warns

I am buying less and paying more now!

I have removed a number of food items off my food shopping as they are now out of my price bracket. And if pot noodle goes up another 5p that too will be off my list.

I miss fresh fish. :(

[Catfish]

I don't know what they mean with rising prices, e.g. for fuel.
I always tank for 20 Euros.

[Betonov]

I always blamed the rising food cost due to increasing number of middlemen.
The farmers are similary blaming that to lower prices of produce.

Someone in the middle is taking a too big of a cut than they deserve and while the EU is a nice target to blame, it really has nothing to do with it.

[Jimbuna]

I don't know what they mean with rising prices, e.g. for fuel.
I always tank for 20 Euros.

What are you driving, a Zippo? :hmm2:

[Betonov]

What are you driving, a Zippo? :hmm2:

What are you driving, a Hummer :doh:
€20 gives me a weeks worth of drive or one return trip to the coast (350km)

[Jimbuna]

One thing is certain. If the Brits make the wrong choice, Germany will invade again.

:88)

And if its the other choice, we do it anyway.

:huh:

So go ahead with your choosing, but remember: you decide your own destiny.

:O:

Chances are we won't even notice if the invaders are Germans or not, there are that many nationalities in your country these days :hmm2:

[Catfish]

What are you driving, a Zippo? :hmm2:

Have not used the Zippo for a long time, stopped smoking some 20 years ago :hmmm:

1st i had a Triumph 'Herald' my girl friend back then called 'Hippo' :O:
2nd of course it was a joke, but you know that..
3rd it's a '84 VW 'Passat' with an unusual "Elsbett" engine, constructed to run with plant oil. Plant oil stations have long shut down in Germany when Big oil protested, so i have to run with Diesel, which is a bit less efficient, but still gets a 100 km with 3-3.5 litres. So a full tank with 60 and a bit litres gets me around 1600 kilometers, or 1000 miles, at least.
But meanwhile, spare parts are virtually non-existent.

[Jimbuna]

What are you driving, a Hummer :doh:
€20 gives me a weeks worth of drive or one return trip to the coast (350km)

€65 a week but do use my car for work purposes.

Have not used the Zippo for a long time, stopped smoking some 20 years ago :hmmm:

1st i had a Triumph 'Herald' my girl friend back then called 'Hippo' :O:
2nd of course it was a joke, but you know that..
3rd it's a '84 VW 'Passat' with an unusual "Elsbett" engine, constructed to run with plant oil. Plant oil stations have long shut down in Germany when Big oil protested, so i have to run with Diesel, which is a bit less efficient, but still gets a 100 km with 3-3.5 litres. So a full tank with 60 and a bit litres gets me around 1600 kilometers, or 1000 miles, at least.
But meanwhile, spare parts are virtually non-existent.

A VW eh?

Is the above before or after the green test fiddle scandal? :O:

[Catfish]

...A VW eh?
Is the above before or after the green test fiddle scandal? :O:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aWK6DlQ650

No, this^ is not mine :03:
Engine is not VW, but Elsbett. There is no fine dust particles, my engine produces solid coal bricks when you stand on the accelerator :haha:

[Jimbuna]

LOL :)

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFP5V/we-must-stay-in-the-eu/image.jpg?w=400&c=1

[Oberon]

Meanwhile Darth Brexit uses force push to defeat an opponent:

http://i.giphy.com/12HM8t3Sl5hjTW.gif

[Rockstar]

If every European nation democratically elects leaders to run their respective country. Who runs or is in charge of this thing called the E.U.? How are these E.U. government officials elected, or are they appointed and if appointed, who appoints them?

And why the big scare of all things going to hell in a hand basket if the U.K. leaves the E.U.? Switzerland isnt a member of the E.U. and they seem to do just fine.

[Oberon]

If every European nation democratically elects leaders to run their respective country. Who runs or is in charge of this thing called the E.U.? How are these E.U. government officials elected, or are they appointed and if appointed, who appoints them?

EU ministers are voted in by the public of the respective countries, in the UK they're known as MEPs and elections are held every five years.

And why the big scare that all things going to hell in a hand basket if the U.K. leaves the E.U.? Switzerland isnt a member of the E.U. and they seem to do just fine.

Switzerland has never been a member of the EU, and thus their economy is geared to cope with this, our economy is not. In the long term things may settle down, within the next decade or two, but to begin with, no-one is really sure how much of an impact there will be, but most can agree that there will be an impact.

[Rockstar]

I just visited http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

and according to that site the members of the E.U. Commission are not voted into office by the public they're appointed. Id bet these clowns if they actually had to ask the public wouldnt even be elected as street sweepers.

Interesting too is this appointed comission sole job is to represent the interests of the European Union as a whole (not the interests of individual countries).

Hell if it were me if I couldnt decide by vote who ruled I'd remove myself out of such a union too

[Oberon]

The far right weaselling into the mainstream:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/02/far-right-europe-austria-democratic-right-elect-cleaned-up-fascist-president-suspend-country-from-eu

[STEED]

I see project BS Fear has gone into high gear today well I got news for you. My Polish and Hungarian neighbors next door were going to vote to stay in but after the latest project fear they are now voting out. In your face Gids and Toff Boy.

[Rockstar]

The far right weaselling into the mainstream:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/02/far-right-europe-austria-democratic-right-elect-cleaned-up-fascist-president-suspend-country-from-eu

Those inept clowns, the ones who refuse to see the writing on the wall who just keep pushing their agenda, never really taking into consideration the voice of the people they actually work for. Now have found themselves voted out of a job because of it and made it quite easy for anyone else to walk right through the front door, no weaseling necessary.

Now articles like this pop up crying about the rise of nationalism, facisim, Putin taking over the world, the fall of NATO.

Poor Europe now its the rise of the weasels who are out to get you. I would think the sky could fall only so many times.

Still,how aunty Merkel is still in office baffles me to no end.

[Oberon]

I have to admit, that is the main thing that is stopping me from being firmly in the Bremain camp, the worrying far-right rise in Europe and the powerlessness of the EU. I worry that the ship has been fatally holed and consider that it might be an idea to get to the lifeboats before the rush.
Equally though, the thought of giving any credibility to the likes of UKIP and the right-wing Tories who want us to leave the EU wrankles me somewhat. STEED may rant about 'Toff Boy' but if we exit, then it's almost a dead cert that 'Toff Boy' will be replaced eventually by Bojo and that's not a prospect that heartens me.

[Eichhörnchen]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3603793/Why-quit-EU-Cameron-s-guru-Friend-strategist-Steve-Hilton-breaks-ranks-Brexit-say-Britain-literally-ungovernable-unless-power-self-serving-elite.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

It was 'hubristic elites' who allowed Hitler to (Ooops... nearly...)

[STEED]

STEED may rant about 'Toff Boy' but if we exit, then it's almost a dead cert that 'Toff Boy' will be replaced eventually by Bojo and that's not a prospect that heartens me.

You know the old saying mate..

One B'stard out and another B'stard in. :03:

[Jimbuna]

I have to admit, that is the main thing that is stopping me from being firmly in the Bremain camp, the worrying far-right rise in Europe and the powerlessness of the EU. I worry that the ship has been fatally holed and consider that it might be an idea to get to the lifeboats before the rush.
Equally though, the thought of giving any credibility to the likes of UKIP and the right-wing Tories who want us to leave the EU wrankles me somewhat. STEED may rant about 'Toff Boy' but if we exit, then it's almost a dead cert that 'Toff Boy' will be replaced eventually by Bojo and that's not a prospect that heartens me.

I agree overall with your concerns but what really troubles me is the possibility of being governed by a clown that nobody outside of the UK would take seriously.

[Reece]

Sorry STEED!!!:doh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/

[Buddahaid]

The photo under the headline is really over the top crap and is meant to serve as the emotional trigger. Brrrrr....

[Catfish]

The photo under the headline is really over the top crap and is meant to serve as the emotional trigger. Brrrrr....

Yes, Cameron looks really really happy :haha:

[Catfish]

Brexit risks (be careful what you vote for!);


Tweed everywhere. No more garlic.

You will never win Eurovision again.

Nigel Farage will be bored.
(Or pleased, which is worse.)

Paella to be replaced by custard pie.

Foie Gras is now fatty liver.

Thousands of UK bakers will go bust costing millions of jobs, when French sticks and croissants are made illegal.

"Brussel Sprouts" to be renamed "Westminster growths".

[STEED]

Sorry STEED!!!:doh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/

I don't give a dam what the polls say as they can not be trusted 1% even if they said Brexit will win the vote 90/20. Polls are another form of manipulation and that is why I tell people sod what the politicians the polls and newspapers say make your own mind up and don't let these B'stards do it for you.

[Eichhörnchen]

http://i.imgur.com/C7aFx4Y.jpg "Hey guess what, peeps: your houses is gonna be worth 10 to 18 percent less if we leave the EU, innit?"

And now all you idle bleeders are going to have to fork out twice as much for another grotesque self indulgence: your holidays, innit? "Every Little Hurts" should be the new slogan :haha:

[Jimbuna]

Sorry STEED!!!:doh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/

Well, here is one pensioner who will still be voting to leave.

[Reece]

Well, here is one pensioner who will still be voting to leave.
:up:

[Jimbuna]

Just been informed by my boy that he has nominated me as his proxy voter seeing as how he'll be out of the country on the day of voting.

No problems there, we both intended voting the same way anyway.

[STEED]

Just been informed by my boy that he has nominated me as his proxy voter seeing as how he'll be out of the country on the day of voting.

No problems there, we both intended voting the same way anyway.

I trust you did not bribe him to vote out?

[Fubar2Niner]

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13241327_10154430171530579_8540489489463920716_n.j pg?oh=9d9b2b92bd59d3bd84f9b7838977926c&oe=57CE64AE

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFTA5/i-tell-you-the-facts-and-the-facts-are-this/image.jpg?w=634&c=1


https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFTA9/brexit-the-eu-and-you-will-all-die-from-horrors/image.jpg?w=634&c=1


https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFTAE/listen-to-me-you-plebs/image.jpg?w=634&c=1

[Reece]

I stand at attention with my right arm raised!!:salute:

[Catfish]

The EU is a disease:

"It is official: Leave EU has produced 2,000 “Brexit condoms”. The punchy slogans printed on the wraps are "The Safer Choice" — which apparently compares the EU to an STD— and "It’s riskier to stay in"— with a sexual innuendo intended."

:rotfl2:

[Catfish]

I stand at attention with my right arm raised!!:salute:

Like.. that?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/Cameron_zpsicblz9ex.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/Cameron_zpsicblz9ex.jpg.html)

[Reece]

Yeh that's it!!:har:

[Jimbuna]

I trust you did not bribe him to vote out?

Nope, yet he is a Tory.

[STEED]

Nope, yet he is a Tory.

Good man. :)

Vote jim the honest all round nice guy. :)

[STEED]

I am going to give you a silly EU Law I came up against today.

Took the old lawn mower up to the dump still works only three years old but I could not get on with it. And no I did not buy another flymo anyway moving on, now in the past the guys who work up at the city dump would take stuff off you if it still works but now they can not. I am quoting from this one guy said to me, under EU rules they can be prosecuted under the health and safety act.

So I asked what about CD's and DVD's he said the same applies to them, if we cut our selfs on a disk we can be prosecuted!

This has got me thinking would that same law apply to car boot sales? :hmmm:

[Catfish]

^ Well could it be, that after all it was England which introduced that and made it legal all over Europe :hmmm:
You have the most "advanced" rules regarding the environment.

[Betonov]

I am going to give you a silly EU Law I came up against today.

Took the old lawn mower up to the dump still works only three years old but I could not get on with it. And no I did not buy another flymo anyway moving on, now in the past the guys who work up at the city dump would take stuff off you if it still works but now they can not. I am quoting from this one guy said to me, under EU rules they can be prosecuted under the health and safety act.

So I asked what about CD's and DVD's he said the same applies to them, if we cut our selfs on a disk we can be prosecuted!

This has got me thinking would that same law apply to car boot sales? :hmmm:

That's weird. We have no such law :hmmm:
Scrapyards and sorting dumps are legally abliged to take any crap you bring in as long as the scrapryard is either privately owned and has a policy to take in what you brought (a car scrapyard can refuse your busted couch), or is owned by the same company you pay your utility bills to.

[Jimbuna]

I am going to give you a silly EU Law I came up against today.

Took the old lawn mower up to the dump still works only three years old but I could not get on with it. And no I did not buy another flymo anyway moving on, now in the past the guys who work up at the city dump would take stuff off you if it still works but now they can not. I am quoting from this one guy said to me, under EU rules they can be prosecuted under the health and safety act.

So I asked what about CD's and DVD's he said the same applies to them, if we cut our selfs on a disk we can be prosecuted!

This has got me thinking would that same law apply to car boot sales? :hmmm:

STEED, that rule only applies to you. Tell the canny folk on here the truth, you are known locally as 'The Midnight Fly Tipper' :)

[STEED]

Anyone want the lawn mower you will find it in the electrical dump container. But you may get prosecuted for stealing it. :03:

Just for the benefit of the rest of the world the dump is a council run that takes all sorts of stuff you can dump apart from Industrial wast.

STEED, that rule only applies to you. Tell the canny folk on here the truth, you are known locally as 'The Midnight Fly Tipper' :)

No chance jim, I am always reporting fly tipping, only a few weeks ago some sod fly tipped a bed mattress. Took the council a week before they moved it.

[STEED]

EU net migration has hit a record high at 184,000, the last immigration figures to be released before the referendum show.

It is an increase of 10,000 on the previous year, according to the Office for National Statistics

http://news.sky.com/story/1702361/eu-net-migration-highest-on-record

So much for Toff Boy Cameron again.

[MGR1]

Another one from the BBC News website:


Do Scots really feel more positive about the EU?

By Sarah Smith, Scotland editor

Opinion polls consistently suggest that Scottish voters seem more inclined to back remaining in the EU than people elsewhere in Britain.
An average across recent polls (http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-eu#line) indicates about two thirds of Scots are planning to vote to stay in the EU. But the polls don't tell us why voters in Scotland seem to feel more positively toward the European Union.
There is no single, simple answer to that question.
Lower levels of immigration in Scotland undoubtedly helps - alongside the economic benefits for thriving export industries like fine foods and whisky.
Although the fishing community in the North East of Scotland argue passionately that it is in their interests to leave.
It is also very noticeable that there are no well known senior politicians in Scotland campaigning for a vote to leave.
All the five party leaders in Holyrood want to stay in and only a few Tory MSPs, plus one Labour MSP (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36383590), who disagree.
UKIP have never made much of an impact on Scottish politics and don't have a loud voice in this debate.
The SNP, which enjoys such buoyant support in Scotland these days, firmly wants to stay in. Only their former deputy leader Jim Sillars makes a nationalist case for leaving - and he is very much a lone voice.

What of identity?

For many Scots the real question is why are we having this referendum at all? Viewed from north of the border it looks like a civil war inside the (English) Tory party that's now being played out across the whole of the UK.
For decades Eurosceptism has looked like an almost exclusively right wing pursuit and that makes many Scots want to deliberately vote the other way.
But that position is slightly confused by the fact that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are campaigning to remain.
Lots of left wing voters have told me they feel deeply uncomfortable voting the same way as Cameron and Osborne.
And it's obvious Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is not keen to give full throated support for the cause supported by most of the Tory cabinet.
She says she very much wants to see a vote to remain but doesn't hesitate to criticise the PM's campaigning tactics.
As I have travel around Scotland asking voters how they feel and why - many have made eloquent points about how views of national identity can shape people's feelings toward Brussels.
Scots have a strong sense of what it means to be "Scottish", one voter told me in Islay. So they don't feel their national identity is threatened by also being part of the EU.
Whilst it may be that some English voters see this referendum as an opportunity to reclaim some sovereignty and with it a sense of English national identity back from Brussels.
Scots are so accustomed to wearing different national identities - being comfortably Scottish and British at the same time. So a third identity as a European sits quite easily alongside, one remain campaigner in Edinburgh told me.
Also, Scotland's position inside the UK means it is also used to being a small part of a larger political block and may mean people are therefore more comfortable with the UK's position inside the EU.
Scottish voters may not feel quite so passionately about this referendum as voters in other parts of the UK - but they do know the outcome could have a momentous effect on Scottish politics.

Difficult questions

Ms Sturgeon has said that if the UK votes to leave but Scotland votes to remain - a situation she describes as Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will - that could trigger another referendum on Scottish Independence.
Many people assume that in those circumstances a desire to re-join the EU might be enough to create a majority in favour of breaking away from the UK. I'm not so sure that scenario is inevitable.
Until the SNP can answer the more difficult questions about what currency an independent Scotland would use and address what the current low oil prices would mean for the Scottish economy they aren't going to be rushing into calling a vote any time soon.
But, nonetheless the ramifications of the EU referendum could be felt in Scotland for quite some time to come.
The article raises some interesting points. It is true that many up here view the EU ref as a manifestation of English Nationalism and the point about identity that Smith makes is a good one.

As the article states, Scots have had a multi-identity for a long time, whereas I think for many in England "Englishness" and "Britishness" have been one and the same, i.e, Britain is England. Therefore any threat to that identity, be it the EU or Scottish Nationalism, provokes an intensely negative reaction.

Who knows.

Mike.:hmmm:

[Catfish]

EU = English nationalism? You guys seriously misunderstand the whole idea.. but whatever the outcome, Ireland will not like a 'Brexit'.

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFUO8/you-will-vote-to-stay-in-the-eu-or-you-will-be-sent-to-room-101/image.png?w=500&c=1


https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFUPG/vote-to-stay-in-the-eu/image.jpg?w=400&c=1

[MGR1]

EU = English nationalism? You guys seriously misunderstand the whole idea.. but whatever the outcome, Ireland will not like a 'Brexit'.

I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make, Catfish!:03:

It's not so much "EU = English nationalism, it's more "EU Referendum = English nationalist reaction against Europe".

It all comes down to who is in control.

In the UK, England is in control because it's the largest and most populous part. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland just have to tag along as best they can as they don't have the weight of population to really have any meaningfull effect on which direction England takes the UK. England just has too many MP's in relation to the other three components.

In the EU, the UK is but one of 28 nations, all with the same influence regardless of their population sizes. Thus, the EU isn't really a scary place for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as their used to being part of a larger whole. Arguably, it is a scary place for English nationalists as England does not have the same clout within the EU as it does within the UK. It's larger population size counts for nothing in the grand scheme of where the power lies as all nations of all sizes are supposed to be equal.

Note that I'm merely being analytical here, for my own part I believe the situation to be far more complex and naunced, making it much harder to pinpoint any one or group of reasons as to why the current situation is occuring.

Personally, I'm likely to vote "out" as I believe the EU has become far too unwieldy to ever successfully function as a single entity. There are just too many individual national interests at stake, let alone the simple cultural differences between Northern, Southern and Central/Eastern Europe. The added bonus of Holyrood gaining full control of Scotland's agriculture and fishing policy is incidental, of course!:03:

Mike.

[Catfish]

^ Ah ok, i think i got it. :up:
Thanks for explaining, and your opinion.
The english national advantage by numbers, within the UK. And why Scotland, Ireland and Wales are probably not that afraid, when it comes to the EU - population numbers are not that relevant there.
But even though, you would prefer to leave, hmm.. but .. ok, accepted.


My view is different, not that i do not understand why you would want to leave the EU.

I can understand each and every problem a country may have with the EU, or staying in it, if it is explained to me. Yes there is that sheep herder who protests against some silly EU rule preventing him of selling more wool, or less, or other quality, or elsewhere. EU rules are not so fine-grained, some are outright silly, and some are plain wrong. Lots of lobbyists, awkward, disgusting, yes.

And yes, there are several different national interests at stake, but i'd say just because of that they should stay together and discuss them, to overcome prejudices, to overcome personal national greed, to come to gripe with the overall picture, rather than fighting each others, if only with words (first..)
For me, leaving an international association for nationalistic opinions and isolated advantages against others is a fallback in times i hoped were long over.
We will have to go to space sooner or later, we will need some worldwide consent on technical and social solutions. I'd prefer an international common project before all national projects, be it US, Russia or China having the "advantage".
Only looking at the challenges of keeping peace on earth are reason enough for working together, rather than falling back into isolated nations again.

Personally: I like the idea of international public woozling around, in the tube, in the universities, at the job, fresh and different ideas, sport events, different approaches and problem-solving, international exchange, discussing philosophies ... that is where the life is, and where progress is made. All imho, of course. I like living in the countryside, but i also need exchange and sharing ideas with other people. Thanks for the internet, also being something new and international.

The EU is not perfect, but imho it is a step on the way to real internationalism, and common sense. Nigel F. and a lot of others will not like this idea. They need fear against all foreign, to exploit.


OT here: For me, if there is any reason for a "Brexit", it would be
"... to scare Tories, and Cameron in particular, about the consequences caused by their anti EU migrants slogans during the political elections campaign last year. Before obtaining the overall majority Cameron wasn't that pro-EU because of his strategy aimed at beating the extreme xenophobe right of Farage's UKIP. ..."

From here, good article regarding Cameron and keeping his face:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/brexit-hows-dangerous-mocking-extreme-right-only-win-votes-emy-muzzi

[Eichhörnchen]

He knows us older folks are already decided so he's now focussed on scaring new mortgagees :nope:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36393513

The cynicism has now reached almost comic proportions; if monkeys had a vote in this, I guess we'd be facing years of rotten bananas.

[STEED]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36393513

The cynicism has now reached almost comic proportions; if monkeys had a vote in this, I guess we'd be facing years of rotten bananas.

All Gids is trying to do is pass the buck, he has screwed up and he knows it.

[Jimbuna]

All Gids is trying to do is pass the buck, he has screwed and he knows it.

What worries me is the possibility the electorate will fall for all this carp :hmm2:

[STEED]

What worries me is the possibility the electorate will fall for all this carp :hmm2:

I think its two fold jim, there are those who do not want change it scares them they rather stagnate and slowly move back into the slime. The others will fall for Project Fear all the way, I know someone who said to me we must stay in the EU to prevent a another world war! How he comes to that conclusion I will never know.

I watched Brexit the movie on Youtube the other day and it just showed me what I already knew for many years. The EU is a State within a State, its over complicated full of red tape and most of all its stagnating and going no where. Its just a club for a bunch of gangsters and crooks and to hell with the little folk of the UK and Europe.

[Diopos]

... the EU isn't really a scary place for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as their used to being part of a larger whole.
...
Mike.

Being part of larger whole is not a problem. On the other hand, being part of a larger hole ... ???

:hmmm:


.

[MGR1]

Being part of larger whole is not a problem. On the other hand, being part of a larger hole ... ???

:hmmm:


.

Well, Greece's current economic problems are largely the fault of it's own politicians stupidity.:03: It should never have joined the Euro in the first place.:hmmm:

What the Greek situation shows is that the trying to weld a disparate set of economies into using a "one size fits all" currency doesn't work unless there's a strong central authority, both political and monetary. Ironically, the lack of a strong central authority exacerbates the EU's problems, but it's highly unlikely one will emerge as it's not in the interests of the various Nations that are in it.

Mike.

[STEED]

Roll on the vote I say, getting fed with both sides point scoring off each other and acting like a load of big baby's. Both sides are throwing their toys out the pram left right and centre and both sides are confusing people and putting them off.

I was listening to LBC Radio at 1am and the presenter said hes had enough and is going to spoil his ballot paper and urged others to do the same.

[Jimbuna]

That course of action would only benefit the 'IN' vote.

[mapuc]

Yesterday it was told in the Danish news program that some economist from England had warned people to vote for a brexit.

This and all the other warnings made me wonder-are they speaking from their knowledge or from the fear of leaving what they hold dear(the membership in EU)?

Markus

[Eichhörnchen]

I think George Osbore will make them put lots of naked women on the TV all day on voting day, so that all of us normal people will stay at home and not vote... hang on, I think I'm turning into STEED

[STEED]

That course of action would only benefit the 'IN' vote.

In one way Jim I can understand his frustration just like some of my friends they are fed up with both sides bombardments.

[STEED]

I think George Osbore will make them put lots of naked women on the TV all day on voting day, so that all of us normal people will stay at home and not vote... hang on, I think I'm turning into STEED

More like a bribe which he will get back later on with compound interest. :haha:

[STEED]

I see Toff Boy was kissing the new Mayor of London...Verbal not full on. :haha:

The vote stay in battle bus is off the blocks.

http://news.sky.com/story/1704202/pm-hails-proud-muslim-khan-on-eu-trail

[STEED]

Just to add some balance.

UKIP Slammed For Using Great Escape Tune

http://news.sky.com/story/1704034/ukip-slammed-for-using-great-escape-tune

[Jimbuna]

The Electoral Commission has called on Bristol city council to scrap an EU referendum how-to-vote guide over claims it favours the Remain campaign.
A UKIP MEP complained about the pictorial instructions on how to vote, which show a pencil hovering over the Remain box.
The election watchdog said the graphic "shouldn't have been used".
Bristol City Council said it would amend the form and insisted it was not trying to influence the vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36411509

[Reece]

Notice how it's always "remain",:timeout: I hope they lose!!!:salute:

[Jimbuna]

I think the 'In' camp are oblivious to the possibility the voters might well get sick of the constant diatribe they are being fed and stick their fingers up and vote to leave simply as a way of displaying their annoyance.

[Reece]

Only 23 days to vote, even I'm getting nervous!!:yep:

[Catfish]

I think the 'In' camp are oblivious to the possibility the voters might well get sick of the constant diatribe they are being fed and stick their fingers up and vote to leave simply as a way of displaying their annoyance.

True, have not seen much rational discussion, not even here.
Being against Cameron seems to be enough :03:

[STEED]

The number crunchers on some article I read suggested stay in will win by a good 70%.

[Oberon]

Long term for internal stability it's probably better for In to win it by a large margin if they're going to, otherwise the Tory Out group will bring down Cameron, and whilst it's en vogue around here to hate on Cameron, the other choices are not really much better...in fact I would go as far as to say that they are worse.
But who can say what will happen? Everyone is just guessing really, no-one knows for certain what will happen if we stay or if we go, and honestly that's enough cause for concern, it's a big gamble for the future of the nation on something that no-one really knows what will happen.
However, equally, it's clear that no-one in the current parties dominating the EU parliament actually wants to fix the EU and instead just wants to destroy it, and with the far-right in the rise in Eastern Europe, the continuing refugee crisis that no-one wants to deal with, I don't know how much longer the EU can actually continue under its current setup, and thus whether it's actually worth staying in.
Equally though, I don't trust the British government not to take advantage of leaving the regulations of the EU which are designed to protect the rights of the people and workers of the nations within it, I really wouldn't trust them not to take populist measures which are detrimental to the rights of the people of Britain and get away with it because there is no governing body to censure them.

It really is a no-win scenario. :nope:

[Jimbuna]

Damned if you do and damned if you don't Jamie....some choice :hmm2:

[Skybird]

People prefer the perceived safety of the known evil to any uncertainty over what the future's outcome will be - ignoring the chance for improvements acompyning the risks. Me too now thinks that Bremain camp will win. Also, the fear-mongering of the Bremain camp's fiscal number offensives, even if they often were ridiculously blown out of proportions, will do their psychological effect for which they had been fired.

I think a Brexit would be difficult in the medium term, but show positive outcomes in the longterm for Britain. But both politics and ordinary people tick by extreme short term calculations only, which seals our doom, and not just for Britons.

[Oberon]

The real question is, do you gamble the lives of 64.1 million people on an unknown outcome? Of course, Bremain also has a strong element of unknown in it (as well as reading a lot like Bremen, which always makes me double check), we have no idea how the next few years are going to shape the EU, we can extrapolate on current trends; ie: the EU will continue to be absolutely helpless to deal with the migrant crisis, but we cannot say for certain.
But, I have to agree that it is entirely possible that in the long term the UK will be better out of the EU, indeed in the long term there might not even be an EU.
I'm not buying a good portion of what either side have said in this campaign, I know that the Brexit group are fond of accusing the Bremain group of 'Project Fear' but the truth is, they've done their own amount of scaremongering, it's just using different scares.

Honestly, I think a good portion of my uncertainty comes to my disbelief that the current British government, or indeed even the next British government if current trends continue, will act in the best interests of the British people in a post-Brexit situation. So far Brexit have promised the Earth, and I really don't think they can deliver. They say that all the money saved from not being in the EU will be spent on things like the NHS, national infrastructure, and so forth, but I honestly do not believe that either UKIP or the Conservative Party would do that, and I don't think that the Labour Party has a gnats chance of being elected any time soon, and the Liberal Democrats might not even exist for all the good they do, so there you have it.
I also don't trust either the Tories or Labour not to use a lack of EU oversight to start curbing certain individual freedoms in the name of 'National security', I mean we've already had the 'Snoopers Charter', what else would they think up with no supervisory body to curb their efforts? :hmmm: Not to mention the effect on workers rights, I mean, this is a Tory government, the children of Thatcher, they'd probably start taking an axe to workers rights on day two after Brexit.

Still, all that is supposition, and heavily clouded by scepticism and political bias, I'll freely admit that. But here we are, June 1st, 23 days to go...and honestly...I'm still not sure which way I'm going to vote. :hmmm: :dead: :/\\!!:/\\!!

[Catfish]

At least some of the posts are beginning to make sense here :D:03:
We cannot look into the future, all we can make is more or less educated guesses, and frankly most of 'us' do not have the oversight to do the latter.


On the one hand, personally i would not like to see England (and the UK?) go, just because imho it is better to form the future together (but i already wrote about all that).

(There may be rumble in the EU just of all with the eastern states (thinking of Hungary, Poland, Romania, Austria:03: and maybe later Turkey:-?), who are as good in fearmongering as any other, if using opposite themes like xenophobia, foreign immigration, own patriotism, nationalism and accusing immigrants and the EU to be the scapegoat for all bad things on earth.
They use their citizen's vague fear, insecurity and fury for their own goals, canalizing it and instrumentalizing the force behind it (i wonder where we saw that before..).
But even with some states acting illogically or plain dumb, it has never been an advantage to isolate oneself from them, and stop talking and trading. I still think the EU is better than most people think about it.)


On the other hand, imho England has gone the 'wrong' way for a longer time, concentrating on banks and financial markets, instead of supporting its own middle class with its proven creative power for building and inventing.
Competition is meanwhile international, and maybe it was at some point wise to switch to finance and services sectors then. The decision to do that was not formed by the EU, but by England alone. It was economics, international competition and imho good old bankers' greed. (along with products' bad quality and lots of strikes. Well Thatcher saw to the latter in her own special way.. when i was in England at that time i saw the sheer hate, most people on the street expressed for her).
This decision of how to run an economy can be changed again, but I wonder if England and the UK will and can change to a more 'material market' and fare better, if they leave the EU. Imho you do not need a 'Brexit' to reform, but personal/national willing and appropriate legislation. Imho the Eu is more a platform for that, than a hindrance.

We will certainly have to accept your decision, whatever the outcome :salute:

[Skybird]

Euro and EU have an almost 100% certainty to end as disastrous blunders. Leaving them has a risk in the short and medium term, a risk shrinking for the longterm outlook. So the latter has the lower risk.

So who gambles the lives of 64.1 million Britons away here?

Personally, i have written off Europe completely, by the end of this century, it will be meaningless, or a police state, or both. Its social structure and integrity is getting ripped apart, its economic fundaments devastated.

Islam must no try to militarily conquer Europe. It just needs to increase pressure on the social systems and watch as we allow social system getting blown out of proportions and then collapsing, which will be the end of state and society as we know it today. And it only must make it costly to defend our way of life, both regarding war and terror, and mass migration and failing integration. This all has follow-on costs that are ruinous, and all the time worstens the status of freedom and wealth in our countries.

It all comes together, it all works together, all factors fall in their matching places - and it all works for the fall of Europe. If I would have founded family and would have children, I would educate them in a way so that they leave Europe as soon as possible.

The EU is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It turns into the outcome that it claims it wants to prevent. The harder it tries, the faster it gets there. Its already happening since many years. Just open your eyes and look. Harmony is not spreading in the EU, but aggression. Fiscal security is not growing, but declining. Euro crisis is counting volumes much higher than in 2007. Paternalism and regulation is exploding.

And still Europeans are drunk of biting off more than they can chew, and the claims for more central state powers and more debts skyrocket into heavens. Let the music play. The party. Must. Go. On.

[Schroeder]

If I would have founded family and would have children, I would educate them in a way so that they leave Europe as soon as possible.

And why are you still here?:hmm2:
I mean you're not too old to go someplace else yourself. After all the EU could fail within a decade or so which is most likely within your lifetime.

[Catfish]

According to Skybird's earlier posts, all that has happened already three years ago.

Since i am living in the countryside, i guess it will take 20 years until the news of the EU's downfall reaches us :smug:

[Skybird]

And why are you still here?:hmm2:
I mean you're not too old to go someplace else yourself. After all the EU could fail within a decade or so which is most likely within your lifetime.


I personally can hold my life together while staying alone, so I have no family at risk; next: I am almost 50, that is not the youngest anymore; third: I failed to learn a profession that is in demand in other countries outside Europe that I would consider as destinations - and I am not too certain and a bit clueless which countries that really could be: there is a reasons why I say that in principle the crisis is global- ; and finally: a certain amount of laziness, and lacking courage on my side. I did a lot of travelling in my 20s and 30s, and it now holds no attraction to me anymore. I also already have moved not too rarely, so moving once again and starting new somewhere else, this time even in a foreign country, sounds not too appealing to me. Some people do not care to move every couple fo years, they do not consider any place a home where the feel "at home", but I do, and to have such a place is very important for me, could not live happily while always being "on trek". I need my cave, my home, my castle, where I feel safe and "gemütlich". Without it, first I get grumpy, then I get difficult. :D And last, my health is slowly detoriating, I am irreversibly ill and this will have an effect on my life expectancy. P.S.: Regarding money, if maintaining a modest lifestyle and not founding a family anymore, I should have enough to hold out for as long as my life is still worthwhile to live it. If the Euro-lunatics do not mess it up even faster than even I would expect, that is. Thankfully, I do not need much anymore, feel only very minor material desires. you probably would be surprised if you knew with how little money I can make it through the month.

So I do not really have any own horses in this race named "exodus". If I would have own children now, however, I would educate them and try to influence them such that they move outside the EU, and have good chances to survive that: courage, and a profession that is in demand somewehre else. Their old father they better should leave behind in that case. ;) The future belongs to the young, not the old. Well, I am not that old, I mean - but young I am certainly not anymore. :)

I also think the EU already is collapsing right now, at least it works hard on its self-destruction - but that is a process that takes longer than just one decade - several decades. Consider it to happen in slo-mo.Unfortunately, it tries hard to pull Europe down with itself, too. Once the economic fundaments have been sufficiently eroded and cannot be sustained anymore, things then will slide and fall quite quickly. Remember the Warsaw Pact states - they practically were economically ruined and bankrupt already in the very early 70s - and still held themselves together somehow for another almost 20 years. But once a certain treshhold was reached, things happened incredibly fast. Faster than anyone in the west felt comfortable with. Nobody dared to forsee that momentum, that speed. Certain Western powers even wanted to put their feet on the brakes, that worried they felt over the pace of events in the East.

[mapuc]

You know what ? Absolutely NO ONE knows exactly what is going to happen with England and EU in the first few years or in the next decade or so-If the British people decided to leave EU.

Maybe the EU will collapse after some years and England will see a economical uprising or even England would face a economical breakdown.

The outcome in case of a Brexit is many-the is what I know- There is no historical or economical history of what happened when a country like England left EU

Markus

[Skybird]

Nevertheless one can make some reasonable calculations, assumptions on the ground of earlier experiences, historical comparisons and one can weigh the probability of several scenarios.

Actually man does that all day, all year, all life long. We never decide on the grounds of 100.00% certainties, and events never get repeated by a 100.00% exact identical copy.

We take gambles - and calculate their probabilities. And we cannot avoid to do so. We must choose.

[mapuc]

Nevertheless one can make some reasonable calculations, assumptions on the ground of earlier experiences, historical comparisons and one can weigh the probability of several scenarios.

Actually man does that all day, all year, all life long. We never decide on the grounds of 100.00% certainties, and events never get repeated by a 100.00% exact identical copy.

We take gambles - and calculate their probabilities. And we cannot avoid to do so. We must choose.

True. However there haven't been a EU Exit of that scale before that's why no one knows exactly what's going to happen if Britain leaves.

The only Country who left EU after a few years membership was Greenland.

When I meant scale I was thinking of England's PNB and other economical things.

Furthermore these "warmonger"(or what they are called" is useless ´cause those "people" have a political and a economical interest in staying or leaving EU or have been ordered to make a "Survey" from a party who is either for or against EU.

Markus

[Skybird]

A Brexit maybe is a bigger problem for Germany, than for Britain itself.

Usually France gets mentioned to be the numero uno ally of Germany in the Eu, which is nonsense. Paris' positions on many EU-related issues could not be any more different than that of the official line in Berlin. Paris is economically weak. Paris wants a stronger socialist regime, and less austerity. Paris wants Germans to mount more of foreign nation's debts, directly and/or indirectly. Paris wants the ECB taking Paris' commands. Paris wants stronger centralism in the EU, under strong French influence and dominance, of course. Paris wants the Mediterranean union with the Northafrican and ME states. Nothing of that is in us Germans' interest. And all of it is at our cost.

As a German taxpayer I say we could need Britain as an ally much more urgently, than France, even if it is only the lesser evil. Just switch on TV and watch the news about what is going on in France. Who wants to pump money into that mess of a state, into such an openly socialist society that still has not understood what hour the clock is showing? To me France is the far greater problem than Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal...

In the end, everybody in Europe just waits and hopes for the fall of Germany, and already has the champagne stored cold. Simple envy, you see. In this, inside Europe we are in the same position like the US in the world. Everbyody needs America's military strength and Germany's money (even if thta money is just a fallacy), and everbody hates that he needs or even depends on us. And the more we or America help, the more we will get dispised.

[Oberon]

Got to admit, I think that if Daesh have any smarts about them, their next target will be Germany. It's the perfect target.
One major Paris-style attack and there's a good chance that Merkels government will fall, AFD will rise in popularity, Muslim immigrants and anyone who vaguely looks Muslim will face increased rejection from the local populace which means that they'll be much much easier to recruit.
So in one attack they kill the infidels™, collapse a government, and increase their recruit rate by a large amount. It's a win-win scenario.

I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened already.

[Skybird]

It would also mean that they obliterate their most favourite holiday refuge that they have in Europe. Germany is the primary recreation and hiding centre for Islamic terrorists in Europe, thanks to the good heart of the natives who are endlessly disgusted by themselves.

[Betonov]

Slovenia is their favourite holiday refuge, thank you very much.
There are constant reports of shady bearded men renting private picnic spots with a segregated area for women.
But a Slovene takes money first and then call the police.

[Reece]

I hope you guys are joking!!

[Betonov]

Yes.
About a real thing.
I hope Delo has an article about it, the only paper I trust here.

But we do get a lot of tourists from Saudi Arabia and Emirates.
They like our nature, low prices and relaxed attitude towards islam.
So that bunch of terrorists could just be some engineers enjoying a grill and discussing how to better exploit the oriental slave labor.

[Oberon]

Meanwhile in the Tory Party:

http://www.belltoons.co.uk/bellworks/var/albums/leaders/2016/3993-250516_RESERVOIRDOGS.jpg?m=1464116098


If it wasn't for the fact that one of the idiots will wind up as Prime Minister when the dust has settled it would be amusing to watch the Tory Party do what it does best, turn on each other.

[Skybird]

I hope you guys are joking!!
The miracle in Germany is that so far no attack has been successful - its not as if such attacks have not been tried. Just today three IS terrorists have been arrested in a nation-wide raid, they planned mass murder in Düsseldorf copying the attack method in Mumbai, with suicide bombings as the opening for a random amok shooting across the whole city centre. Its not the first time we had arrests like this in past years. By far not.

The majority of terrorists in European attacks and plots had ties to, lived in, got commands from masterminds in or withdraw to Germany. Germany is said to be the most forgiving and thus preferred refuge for the Mafia and comparable structures of organised crime, and Muslim terrorism.

Say what you want - we are not using Gestapo methods anymore. We have become really kind and denazificated guys. That's why the scum of the earth likes us so much - it has to fear less from us than from other nations.

[Catfish]

... Say what you want - we are not using Gestapo methods anymore. We have become really kind and denazificated guys. That's why the scum of the earth likes us so much - it has to fear less from us than from other nations.

Methods to find certain persons or getting information on their behaviour (metadata) and mindset are much more subtle now, cameras everywhere and eavesdropping telephone, private mail and Internet would have been the wet dream of the Gestapo.

And make no mistake, the white-tiled cellars with the special interrogation devices still exist, in every state.


So.. back to the good old times, eh?

[Oberon]

Say what you want - we are not using Gestapo methods anymore. We have become really kind and denazificated guys. That's why the scum of the earth likes us so much - it has to fear less from us than from other nations.

So things would be better for Germany if the Nazis were still in charge right now, is that what we're to take away here? That the process of de-nazification made Germany weak?

[Schroeder]

So things would be better for Germany if the Nazis were still in charge right now, is that what we're to take away here? That the process of de-nazification made Germany weak?
Let's say making a 180° turnaround was perhaps not the best way. 175° would have sufficed. Our justice system is a bad joke that protects the perpetrator while mocking the victim. Criminals have not much to fear here and even criminal asylum seekers are not automatically deported after conviction. There were people among the perps of New Year's Eve disaster here who's asylum requests had been denied years ago and who had run ins with the law on several occasions. Yet they were still here and not back in Morocco....

[Oberon]

Let's say making a 180° turnaround was perhaps not the best way. 175° would have sufficed. Our justice system is a bad joke that protects the perpetrator while mocking the victim. Criminals have not much to fear here and even criminal asylum seekers are not automatically deported after conviction. There were people among the perps of New Year's Eve disaster here who's asylum requests had been denied years ago and who had run ins with the law on several occasions. Yet they were still here and not back in Morocco....

The law is an ass, as the saying goes...but I think that lamenting de-nazification is a bit daft, sure, there is likely a case for improving the criminal justice system, but you can do such a thing whilst still remaining an open and tolerant society, the two are not mutually exclusive.

[Catfish]

While "Brexit" sounds a little like cat food, the alternative (Britain stronger in Europe) "BSE" does not sound so much better :03:

[Oberon]

While "Brexit" sounds a little like cat food, the alternative (Britain stronger in Europe) "BSE" does not sound so much better :03:

At least we've had more experience with it! :O:

[Skybird]

So things would be better for Germany if the Nazis were still in charge right now, is that what we're to take away here? That the process of de-nazification made Germany weak?
No, it means that Germans are more concerned about not being called Nazis (even being called that unjustrified) and thus being more tolerant and daydreaming on security things than is healthy or reasonable.

The terror cell arrested yesterday has three IS terrorists in custody now who got into Germany as Syrian "refugees". But their interrogation so far showed they were TEN people who should run the Düsseldorf attack in a combination of suicide bombings and randomly shooting civilians with autmoatic rifles at various points of the city simultaneously. They get quoted wioth that the plan was to kill as many random civilians as possible.

If you want best chances to have Germans obey to your demands, threaten to call them Nazis if they don'T comply. Most times they immediately will turn defensive and obey, may it be a political debate, may it be security procedures-wise. The worst casefor the German Zeitgeist is not a terror plot coming to life, but getting called "Nazis!"

Short while ago we also had another case of mass sexual harassment of young women like in Cologne, not on that monumental scale, but still severla dozens, if counting charges filed as well as estmations on those cases where women still are too ashamed to step forward. Again a mass event, up to 15 men jumping on one girl. The warning that we should not consider that to be linked to the cultural background of the foreign young males runnign these assaults, had not to be waited for for too long. Some days later Merkel said that every German should try to get into contact with an immigrants and try to learn him closer and better.

Its social engineering ambitions at display here. The EU needs a new kind of man more friendly to its reign. Breeding out the stubborn old Europeans with their stupid historically grown feeling of cultural identity, is only a nuisance.

---

Back on topic, Britons have to expect one thing if unexpectadly voting for leaving. The EU will not forgive this heresy and offence, and will take revenge, it also will want to run a warning exmaple to deter any other population in Europe to separate from the EU. Thus, you guys need to prepare in the short and medium run to dala with EU "partners" during renegotiations of treaties and relation that will be stubborn to make it constructive and helpful a negotiation, but who will aim at punishing you as hard as they can. I do not say Britons should give up due to this threat, but they should knopw what is coming for them if they vote No, and should be prepared to sit it out. The EU will take bitter revenge, you can take that as granted. And I thjn k Wahsingtons reaciton will not be too different, too, for the US also wants to prevent European people falling away from the EU. so, the US maybe also will practice a demonstrating example. In fact, Obama already has said it will. He used other words, but the core of his message was crystal clear: don't dare to even think about it.

[STEED]

Dam I missed it..

The university student who accused David Cameron of "waffling" during a Sky News debate on the European Union has said the PM "had it coming".

http://news.sky.com/story/1706101/student-waffling-cameron-had-it-coming

[STEED]

People of the United Kingdom as you know we are voting in three weeks time to stay in or withdraw from the EU and I urge you please please make your own mind up. Please don't let these in/out camps tell you how to vote, politician's are a load of big baby's throwing their toys out the pram.

Finally don't let these corrupt polls make your mind up and bias news papers, all of you are capable of making your own mind up's. Please don't let these B'stards do it for you they got a set agenda and don't give a toss about you.

And don't let anyone here make your mind up and that includes me.

There how about that you big baby politician's.

[Jimbuna]

Back on topic, Britons have to expect one thing if unexpectadly voting for leaving. The EU will not forgive this heresy and offence, and will take revenge, it also will want to run a warning exmaple to deter any other population in Europe to separate from the EU. Thus, you guys need to prepare in the short and medium run to dala with EU "partners" during renegotiations of treaties and relation that will be stubborn to make it constructive and helpful a negotiation, but who will aim at punishing you as hard as they can. I do not say Britons should give up due to this threat, but they should knopw what is coming for them if they vote No, and should be prepared to sit it out. The EU will take bitter revenge, you can take that as granted. And I thjn k Wahsingtons reaciton will not be too different, too, for the US also wants to prevent European people falling away from the EU. so, the US maybe also will practice a demonstrating example. In fact, Obama already has said it will. He used other words, but the core of his message was crystal clear: don't dare to even think about it.

I do believe there is an element of truth in that but I would add the following.....DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE MINDSET OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE because Europe has had need of such a mindset in the past and should, as so many have already predicted, there be a break up of the EU in the short to medium term future, I should imagine there will be a need of such an alliance again. Understand, I am talking in terms of solidarity and economics, not military.

As for America and in particular Obama, he is a spent force, if he even was one at any time during his presidency.

I don't see such long lasting close ties being severed or even diminished all that much, the American stance is probably more from the aspect of a perceived weakening of resistance to Putin and the east but the UK's continued membership of NATO (not forgetting we actually spend the 2% of GDP on military spending) plus the fact there will soon be a new POTUS with potentially different opinions should see said ties being continued.

I make no secret of the fact I am for leaving and base that mainly on the fact that we should take back control of our borders, immigration and law making which, in the main is being increasingly dictated to us by what are usually unelected beaurocrats who run a system that wastes countless sums of money and can't even get its own accounts verified.

Anyone caring to look at how much each country pays into the EU and receives back will clearly see that the UK is the third or fourth largest payer in. All those four recieve back less than what they pay in, the remaining 24 countries recieve more back than what they pay in:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

Now add to that those countries who have applied or have expressed an interest in joining and you can easily come to the conclusion none of them will be joining the ranks of the top four who pay in more than they receive back. In fact, one of the above isn't even recognised as a state by some of the present EU member states:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/664966/EU-Which-Countries-Waiting-to-Join-European-Union-Turkey-Balkan-States

I appreciate there are a multitude of links out there but I have chosen those above as a way of illustrating my viepoint so if anyone differs in opinion then fair enough.

http://i.imgur.com/KPYQk1Y.jpg

[STEED]

I just like to say If the UK stays in the EU then we should sweep away the House of Commons and go all the way, I'm sick of this half arse situation we have. And that goes for Europe to, say bye bye to your individual parliaments and get it all under one EU parliament hat.

[Skybird]

I do believe there is an element of truth in that but I would add the following.....DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE MINDSET OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE because Europe has had need of such a mindset in the past and should, as so many have already predicted, there be a break up of the EU in the short to medium term future, I should imagine there will be a need of such an alliance again. Understand, I am talking in terms of solidarity and economics, not military.

(...)

Oh, I absolutely agree!

But the Britons will not vote with the needs of continental Europe on mind, but their own hopes and fears. Which is okay, blackmailed solidarity that gets enforced, is no solidarity, but blackmailing and force. Something that the many politicians who abuse the term on a daily basis and make inflational use of it, do not want to see. The word "solidarity" thus has a stinking smell to it today, its meaning has rotten to grease and slime.

If i can trust what our media paint in pictures about the mood in Scotland, the Scots I expect indeed to have a second referendum to split from Great Britain if Britain leaves the EU; Scotland bases stronger on trade ties with the EU than the other regions of the UK, I believe, and it wants more money form the EU.

Either a united kingdom in the EU, or a torn-apart smaller kingdom outside the EU - and Scotland wanting to join the EU again. - Doofe situation. :D

[STEED]

I see the Don of JP Morgan has spoken..

JPMorgan has 16,000 staff in Britain, but may employ far fewer if the country leaves the European Union.
That's the warning from bank CEO Jamie Dimon, speaking to employees in the U.K. Friday.http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/03/news/economy/brexit-jpmorgan-jamie-dimon/index.html

Sod off you criminal rat. :stare:


Wooo.....:huh:

Farage: Staying In EU Risks More Sex Attacks
UKIP's leader is accused of "sinking to new depths" by warning about what he sees as possible dangers of staying in the EU.http://news.sky.com/story/1707208/farage-staying-in-eu-risks-more-sex-attacks

Nigel Farage has suggested there could be mass sex attacks by gangs of migrants like those in Cologne unless the UK votes to leave the EU.

He does have away of blurting it out even if he only suggested it could happen. :shifty:

[Skybird]

I see the Don of JP Morgan has spoken..

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/03/news/economy/brexit-jpmorgan-jamie-dimon/index.html

Sod off you criminal rat. :stare:


Wooo.....:huh:

http://news.sky.com/story/1707208/farage-staying-in-eu-risks-more-sex-attacks



He does have away of blurting it out even if he only suggested it could happen. :shifty:

We already have seen repetition in Germany. Not on the scale of Cologne, but still: dozens of girls and women individually got surrounded and attacked by packs of rats again. Over thirty chrages have been filed last time I read about it, but police says they assume that many girls and women still are too ashamed or intimidated to step forward and file their case as well.

We have a very huge increase in imports of child wives as well. German courts are too shy to run a consistent course against Sharia law here.

We also see family clans of certain Germany-enriching cultures taking over organised crime in the metropoles of Germany. Many police officers admit when the cameras do not run that they are no longer in control of things and simply fear for their lives. The state'S authority is in constant, slow retreat here, it has not the ressources anymore to make these clans stop. These clans count their members by the hundreds.

Sharia law and parallel justice is installed in Germany, de facto, and consolidates its influence. Politicians deny that. Of course they do, what else is left for them. The usual stupid, empty platitudes: Islamophobia, racism, "law and order is strong", and "we will protect you iof noyu vote for us", all that hot air.

[Jimbuna]

The EU President at work. Must make every 'In' voter supporter proud ya reckon?

https://youtu.be/XPgiI46FCDU

I couldn't see Juncker greeting Obama or Putin with a slap. Just shows the contemptuous nature of the EU relationship with the 'little' countries. Juncker knows he can get away with it.

[Oberon]

Well, his greeting to Orban wasn't exactly wrong. :haha:

[Skybird]

The EU President at work. Must make every 'In' voter supporter proud ya reckon?

https://youtu.be/XPgiI46FCDU

I couldn't see Juncker greeting Obama or Putin with a slap. Just shows the contemptuous nature of the EU relationship with the 'little' countries. Juncker knows he can get away with it.
Is that the same Juncker who maybe a week ago during a trip to France was asked what was to come of the EU treaties that make it mandatory for France to cut its yearly deficit to below I think 3% and that states should never expect or be allowed to get bailed out, and who only answered with something like this (translated from my mind, from the German news): "Those treaties were for the France of the past, but I deal with the modern France. The France that is now."

In other words: treaties mean nothing for this lying, cheating fraudster? Is this the same Juncker?

That such people like him get spilled to the top of EU hierachy time and again, is one of the best aergument against tzhe EU, and for bringing it down. An organisaiton where imposters and fraudster and liars like him are the rule, not the excpeiton, obviously is run by principles that not only allow, but work for making this possible.

Its like with FIFA's claim to work for anti-corruption all by itself, and cleaning itself up without need and help from outside. It just does not work that way.

Bureaucracies are a well-deceived form of dictatorship by which established elites in states keep themselves in power, and bring more and more of their family into lucrative positions.

What happened to pacta sund servanda... All animals are equal. But the party pigs are even more equal than equal.

[STEED]

The EU President at work. Must make every 'In' voter supporter proud ya reckon?

https://youtu.be/XPgiI46FCDU

I couldn't see Juncker greeting Obama or Putin with a slap. Just shows the contemptuous nature of the EU relationship with the 'little' countries. Juncker knows he can get away with it.

I liked this comment from the comments below. :har:

Explosm Noncuck:- I wonder how he greets David Cameron? Probably spanks his ass, no wonder porky wants to stay in the EU