View Full Version : Brexit ?
Cameron's plan to reform the EU was unsuccessful.
What does that mean for the EU referendum which is to be held in the UK in June?
It has become more likely that the UK leaves the EU because Cameron, who actually wants the UK to stay in the EU, is now in the position that
a) he has to explain to the voters that already by now it is beneficial for the UK to stay in the EU despite his reform plans have failed
or
b) he keeps claiming that he successfully reformed the EU which the voters won't buy from him.
Especially scenario b) bears the risk that the EU referendum mutates into a referendum for or against Cameron instead of for or against Brexit.
It has not become easier for Cameron to keep the UK in the EU.
Btw, what would that mean if the UK leaves the EU?
It has 7 alternatives to EU membership as described here:
http://www.cer.org.uk/publications/archive/policy-brief/2016/if-uk-votes-leave-seven-alternatives-eu-membership
AndyJWest
02-19-16, 10:42 AM
I've seen no evidence that Cameron actually had a plan to 'reform the EU'. His plan seems to have been to talk tough, and maybe wheedle a few minor concessions out of other EU members - the objective being to present an appearance of having 'won', and to convince enough undecided voters that it is worth staying in. Which he of course wants, because the political paymasters of the Tory party - big business - know full well that leaving the EU would result in a large drop in profits.
Personally, I've yet to make my mind up which way to vote in the referendum - or even whether to vote at all. The EU is undemocratic, bureaucratic, and frequently corrupt - but none of the alternatives offered by the anti-EU mob actually any prospect of more democracy, less bureaucracy, or less corruption - merely the replacement of foreigners with locals doing the same 'job', while leaving the economy on just as shaky ground, if not more so...
Regardless of which way the vote goes, it'll hurt and also be very divisive. In more ways than one.:hmmm:
The UK may not survive in it's current form, either.
Mike.
It's going to be a real political hot potato over here in the coming months, at the moment I'd say that the national mood is in favour of exit, but not by much, there's a lot of confusion and a lot of fear-mongering by both sides in regards to the subject.
A lot of the main emotion is over sovereignty, I think that being an island nation we've never taken very well to being told what to do by, well, pretty much anyone. When you add the Migrant Crisis and the EUs 'Rabbit in the headlights' solution in dealing with it, and the Eurozone crisis before that, there's not been a lot of positive publicity in European and British media regarding the EU, and it's the media that makes 9/10s of the decision.
Personally I think that we will be poorer off outside of the EU, especially economically, however there's a large part of me that is wondering whether the UK exiting now may well be a case of getting to the first lifeboats before the ship sinks. If the EU can't get a handle on the migrant crisis, with the EU parliament packed with Euro-sceptics, with Poland going far right and most of the Eastern European nations already there, with Greece on the verge of collapse from inability to handle the sheer number of migrants coming into it, and Italy not far behind. Spain cannot form a government, Germanys government is almost as popular as Adolf Hitlers, and France isn't quite sure what way to turn.
Perhaps building a firewall between us and Europe might be a better option for self-preservation, although if we do leave the EU and the EU does eventually collapse then European nations are going to have to realise that they are in the dustbin of history, and that their opinion means absolutely nothing on the world stage because as individual nations they have as much power as a mosquito compared to the elephants of Russia, China and America (even those elephants are on unicycles on a tightrope which is fraying badly).
It will be a sad sad day to see the EU fail, it was a great experiment, and the idea behind it was in my opinion, good. However you can't get rid of 2000 odd years of nationalism, and conflict so easily. :/\\!!
I just hope that NATO holds together as well. :dead:
It's going to be a real political hot potato over here in the coming months, at the moment I'd say that the national mood is in favour of exit, but not by much, there's a lot of confusion and a lot of fear-mongering by both sides in regards to the subject.
Sentiment in Scotland is a bit different from what seems to be happening in England: LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35602861). With the usual caveats about polling data, but the general feeling seems to be for remain.
This is a rough guess, but since Scotland hasn't been a sovereign country since 1707, swapping Westminster for Brussels doesn't really make that much of a difference to most people. Assuming they actually think about it.
Besides, the EU Referendum is of secondary importance to Scotland's political class at the moment, the major story is the ongoing negotiations for increased fiscal powers for Holyrood.:hmm2:
Mike.
Skybird
02-19-16, 11:26 AM
It's all theatre and stage-play. If Greece would not have started to torpedo the screenplay in last minute, they already would be finished, a deal would be presented, and Cameron would pretend that he delivered a big fight and bla and bla and blablabla.
Don't buy it, dear Britons! He tries to fool you like the EUSSR tries to fool the rest of us. If you say you want to leave, many of us will wave to you with an envious heart.
http://www.007james.com/i/thumbs/articles/top_10_villains/mr_big.jpg
All this talk is for Tomb Stones Baby the UK is staying in the EU.
Mr Big will see to it.
I think you are right Steed, because of this:
‘Yes, Minister’ unveils secrets of British foreign policy on Europe; United Nations and diplomacy (https://vimeo.com/85914510):D
It's ok, they've had a breakthrough in the negotiations, Cameron has unleashed his top secret weapon to bring UK victory:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cbl2RnFUYAAyqKf.jpg:large
I can not get worked up over nothing the FACT is we are staying in, the likes of Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan & Chase will throw Billions at the stay in campaign. And Cameron and Co is put the scare on and people will go screaming into the night to vote stay in.
Meanwhile on BBC15 you can catch STEED telling dirty jokes in London tonight at 11pm. What do you mean you can not get BBC15? Tough luck if you don't pay that is hard cheese on you. :O:
Be lucky enough to get BBC3 old boy, let alone 5x3! :O:
Be lucky enough to get BBC3 old boy, let alone 5x3! :O:
Clue
Try the Internet for BBC3. :)
No Cabinet Meeting Tonight - PM
Tory party cabinet celebrated the news and went straight to Parliaments Bars to get tanked up on champaign. :rotfl2:
You guys should read the comments on the news sites. :har:
I could make a ton of money selling stress pills to all that lot who are getting worked up! :ping:
AndyJWest
02-19-16, 01:20 PM
It's all theatre and stage-play. If Greece would not have started to torpedo the screenplay in last minute, they already would be finished, a deal would be presented, and Cameron would pretend that he delivered a big fight and bla and bla and blablabla.
Don't buy it, dear Britons! He tries to fool you like the EUSSR tries to fool the rest of us. If you say you want to leave, many of us will wave to you with an envious heart.
If there's one thing likely to swing me over to voting to remain in the EU, it's nonsense like this. EUSSR? ROFL!!!!!
You can't really blame them though STEED, it's probably one of the biggest decisions that the UK is going to make since we voted to join it.
I'd honestly say, Goldman Sachs or no, that it's not as cut and dried as you'd think, I think that there's only one pro-EU newspaper on the shelves right now, and if you watch nearly any episode of Question Time you'll see them all coming out about the loss of sovereignty and the mass influx of migrants from Eastern Europe, etc. There has been nearly two decades of bad publicity about the EU, from the arguments over fishing quotas, to cattle transportation, and now migration.
Let's face it, in overall votes during the last election who had the third largest share of the vote? UKIP, the party whose primary objective is leaving the EU, as well as stopping gay marriage causing flooding. :O:
I think it is going to be very close to the wire.
Eichhörnchen
02-19-16, 02:57 PM
I'm honestly still not decided one way or 'tother; my instinct is that if Posh Boy says "Stay" then we should run like hell.
I'm honestly still not decided one way or 'tother; my instinct is that if Posh Boy says "Stay" then we should run like hell.
BREAKING NEWS
https://johnnyvoid.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/cameron-black-tie-done.jpg?w=500
David Cameron wins a big fat back hander for himself but still no deal for the UK.
Catfish
02-19-16, 04:13 PM
If national interest and short-sighted patriotism count more than a EU-wide community of values, i'd say good bye and won't shed a tear about an exit, be it a "Brexit", or Hungary leaving the EU.
I still doubt that though :)
THE DEAL IS MADE.
WORSHIP YOUR EU MASTERS NOW!
https://bootthedoorshoutthroughthecrack.files.wordpress.co m/2015/08/maidan-1-feb-berkut-pic-of-eu-flag-and-nazi-flag.jpg?w=350&h=200&crop=1
Unanimous support for UK-EU deal - Tusk
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768
I hear we got special status from ToffBoy, what is it Dave?
And if Dave thinks that's going to matter one iota to the Out campaign then he's even more delusional than we thought. He could get the EU to promise a golden toilet seat for every Britain it wouldn't make a difference. :dead:
Skybird
02-19-16, 05:25 PM
If national interest and short-sighted patriotism count more than a EU-wide community of values, i'd say good bye and won't shed a tear about an exit, be it a "Brexit", or Hungary leaving the EU.
Careful. A union "based on values" instead of just profane material interests - trade and business relations - is what has made the EU what it today is and wants to be in the future: a continental central state with planned economy and totalitarian control over every single citizen's views and opinions.
I don't want their EUSSR values. Leave things to cooperated trading - to give it some name -, and to that alone. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And moral values.
The best international diplomats: are private traders and merchantmen. Politicians are laymen only. And usually they create havoc sooner or later. Always.
And if Dave thinks that's going to matter one iota to the Out campaign then he's even more delusional than we thought. He could get the EU to promise a golden toilet seat for every Britain it wouldn't make a difference. :dead:
http://www.shoutoutuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/david-cameron.jpg
That's the spirit Oberon, come join Uncle Dave on the victory celebrations. :woot:
Party time, get on down and boogie with the EU you know its God. :yeah:
Time for a sing song..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtCittJyr0
All together now..
Meanwhile things were going well at this evenings 'Grassroots Out' campaign meeting, very busy hall, with many being refused entry due to fears of overcrowding. Farage gets a standing ovation, rumour has it a big trade union is going to join the campaign on Monday, and then Nigel Farage pulls in the special guest...'a towering figure of the left'...George Galloway...
http://i.imgur.com/jPfEYDx.jpg?1
https://media.giphy.com/media/IJDhQOK6f3oFq/giphy.gif
Hundreds of people are leaving, all very angry. "It's a disgrace" says one man. Very annoyed about Galloway
"This has ruined it as far as I'm concerned" "I said to my husband we must go" "He is disgusting" "disgrace" - just a few comments ..."He's an anti Semite, it's disgusting" says one v angry activist. Seriously let down people here. Very bad decision from Grassroots Outhttps://twitter.com/KateEMcCann
And a clip:
https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/700795954987925506
Still, never fear, that bastion of the free press 'The Sun' has got tomorrows breaking headline sorted:
http://i.imgur.com/iTk9HXV.jpg?1
Its all done and dusted we are staying in end of. Just sit back have a dam good laugh as both sides now duke it out with their BS and lies. Democracy has gone missing and has been replaced by Punch & Judy :yep:
Well, if the Grassroots Out doesn't get its act together then it'll just be down to the media to trumpet the Out vote.
George Galloway... :nope: :har:
The OUT is not organized and all over the place and the IN has got big money to insure they win.
Meanwhile in another Galaxy..
http://www.heromachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/cylons-vs-daleks.jpg
I'm putting £2 on the Daleks.
Schroeder
02-19-16, 06:33 PM
I'm putting on the Daleks.
Are you sure you still have £2 after 6 years under Cameron?:o
Are you sure you still have £2 after 6 years under Cameron?:o
No problem just rob a bank, after all these bastards been robbing off the people with their scams like PPI. :) :haha: :03:
Wilson2?
And your press already got mad over Cameron before the Council meeting.
http://zelo-street.blogspot.de/2016/02/daves-eu-deal-yes-its-no.html
"Those of us of A Certain Age could be forgiven today for experiencing a sense of déjà vu at the reaction to Young Dave’s “deal” with his fellow EU leaders on all those jolly firm manifesto commitments on which the Tories went into last May’s General Election. That is because we have been here before: Harold Wilson told the country back in 1975 that he had “renegotiated” the terms of Britain’s membership of what was then the EEC.
What had actually happened is that there was very little that had been “renegotiated”: the referendum called by Wilson was a device to hold together a Labour Party that was badly divided over the issue of Europe. Fast forward 40 years, and, once again, very little has been “renegotiated”, because the referendum called by Cameron is, er, a device to hold together a Tory Party that is badly divided over the issue of Europe..."
Blimey, Harold Wilson. I wonder if the Tories of the future will think of Dave as positively as Labourites think of Wilson. :hmmm:
AndyJWest
02-19-16, 07:19 PM
Wilson2?
And your press already got mad over Cameron before the Council meeting.
http://zelo-street.blogspot.de/2016/02/daves-eu-deal-yes-its-no.html
"Those of us of A Certain Age could be forgiven today for experiencing a sense of déjà vu at the reaction to Young Dave’s “deal” with his fellow EU leaders on all those jolly firm manifesto commitments on which the Tories went into last May’s General Election. That is because we have been here before: Harold Wilson told the country back in 1975 that he had “renegotiated” the terms of Britain’s membership of what was then the EEC.
What had actually happened is that there was very little that had been “renegotiated”: the referendum called by Wilson was a device to hold together a Labour Party that was badly divided over the issue of Europe. Fast forward 40 years, and, once again, very little has been “renegotiated”, because the referendum called by Cameron is, er, a device to hold together a Tory Party that is badly divided over the issue of Europe..."
Yup. Though Cameron is a lightweight in comparison to Wilson when it comes to political shenanigans, and there is no guarantee that it will work for him. A vote to leave (against his personal wishes) will call his leadership into question, while a 'stay' vote might well result in substantial defections to UKIP from Tory MPs who will see little opportunity for further advancement in a party that they are in fundamental disagreement with over such a core issue. The promise of a referendum has helped hold the party together - an actual vote could well tear it apart.
wow, this is even more exciting than the US Presidential race:ping:
I bet the EU Courts will be busy from those who want our benefits. Bet they win as well.
https://d3sex9wb5bzca9.cloudfront.net/images/uploads/articles/FUDGE.PNG
I was chatting on Monday to a Polish lass, she's been over here for a while now and is married with one boy and another on the way, she works part time with us and the rest of the time with the police, I think she's done some translation work, but her goal is in criminal psychology IIRC.
Anyway, she told me that there was a group set up by a couple of Polish girls on facebook in order to help Polish people in the UK who were inbetween jobs understand what benefits they could claim, not as a way to live off the state for free but as a way to survive in between employments.
Unfortunately these girls were soon overwhelmed by people who were looking to live off the system rather than work, and they had to close the group down.
It's a shame, because I've met some really hard working European men and women who will do virtually anything you ask of them and do long hours that few others would touch. I think, though, that as the economic situation got worse after 2008, native people re-evaluated what they were willing to put up with in their work place and thus were no longer as accepting of allowing Eastern Europeans to come in and do the jobs that they didn't want to. :hmmm:
http://61.media.tumblr.com/d0bc6855d1116c6c5179381a66a5e394/tumblr_ntly3jwgt01u1r20bo1_500.jpg
The starting gun has been fired, Referendum day will be June 23rd
Skybird
02-20-16, 07:41 AM
June 23rd.
Jimbuna
02-20-16, 09:21 AM
wow, this is even more exciting than the US Presidential race:ping:
Let us call it a....draw :shucks:
Well, here's the text for Michael Gove's announcement that he supports Brexit: LINK (http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/02/goves-statement-in-full-by-leaving-the-eu-we-can-take-control.html).
Bit of an irony that the OUT campaign have Gove and Galloway on side - they're both Scottish!
Mike.
The real fun with Galloway is him campaigning alongside his new friend Farage:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbpUhEpXIAAscB8.jpg
Two thoughts
For a moment yesterday I got the idea of starting a new thread UK-EU referendum-I didn't I thought it was a task for an English member.
I have heard so many conspiracy about EU-One of them is that no country can ever leave EU once they have become a member and if a country does leave-The EU will send the EU military and occupy the country.
Markus
The real fun with Galloway is him campaigning alongside his new friend Farage:
It does have to be said, "Perma-Tanned Fedora Man" can be quite entertaining, in his own, distinct way. As is Farage, albeit somewhat differently. Should make for a good comedy act, anyway!:haha:
Two thoughts
For a moment yesterday I got the idea of starting a new thread UK-EU referendum-I didn't I thought it was a task for an English member.
Ahem.:timeout:
British, Markus, British! England isn't the whole of the UK, remember?:03: The largest part, yes, but not the whole shebang!
I have heard so many conspiracy about EU-One of them is that no country can ever leave EU once they have become a member and if a country does leave-The EU will send the EU military and occupy the country.
MarkusMad scaremongering, but not one I've heard fom anyone bar the most "out there" Tories.
Mike.
It does have to be said, "Perma-Tanned Fedora Man" can be quite entertaining, in his own, distinct way. As is Farage, albeit somewhat differently. Should make for a good comedy act, anyway!:haha:
Ahem.:timeout:
British, Markus, British! England isn't the whole of the UK, remember?:03: The largest part, yes, but not the whole shebang!
Mad scaremongering, but not one I've heard fom anyone bar the most "out there" Tories.
Mike.
I used UK because I heard it was a referendum for England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and some the areas in the United Kingdom.
Markus
True, but you wrote "English member" rather than British member.
It's a relatively minor nit, but considering what's happened in British politics lately, not unimportant.:03:
Mike.:)
True, but you wrote "English member" rather than British member.
It's a relatively minor nit, but considering what's happened in British politics lately, not unimportant.:03:
Mike.:)
I did
I guess if It had be correctly I should have written a "UK resident"
Back to topic
Markus
Merkel had sex with Hollande and David filmed it. That is what happened.
David was probably the best choice for cameraman, he wouldn't get carried away since his interests lie elsewhere, quite a trot away one could say. :O:
Catfish
02-20-16, 06:24 PM
Poor Hollande.
Jimbuna
02-21-16, 07:47 AM
The fact that Dave could not get anything of signifigance into the deal being offered is proof, we already have no influence, pretty much as all countries in a 28 bloc that has the rules that almost anyone can veto anything.
I think the country could make better use of the £15 Billion per year we currently pay.
AndyJWest
02-21-16, 08:04 AM
The fact that Dave could not get anything of signifigance into the deal being offered is proof, we already have no influence, pretty much as all countries in a 28 bloc that has the rules that almost anyone can veto anything.
I think the country could make better use of the 315 Billion per year we currently pay.
It isn't that simple. We pay in 315 billion per year (if your figures are correct - I can't seem to find the current data), and get most of it back. The net contribution (what we pay minus what we get back) is apparently around £8.6bn per year - or less than 0.5 per cent of British GDP. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk Leaving the EU isn't going to result in the UK having £315 billion more per year to spend, and arguments for leaving shouldn't be based on misleading data.
Jimbuna
02-21-16, 08:33 AM
My apologies, I believe the figure to be £15 billion and have edited the post to that effect.
There are many sets of figures out there but you takes your pick I suppose.
The £15 billion figure is actually set to rise.
https://fullfact.org/economy/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
The fact that Dave could not get anything of signifigance into the deal being offered is proof, we already have no influence, pretty much as all countries in a 28 bloc that has the rules that almost anyone can veto anything.
I think the country could make better use of the £15 Billion per year we currently pay.
Give you £15 Billion then me then Oberon then Bossmark then we all can meet up. :DL
After the hand out to us yes use the money where its needed.
I like to see Europe and the UK free of that bloated EU that has become to powerful.
Skybird
02-21-16, 08:42 AM
If one gets back as much as one puts into something - then there is no need for those two transactions at all. The final balance is the same.
Men in the middle benefitting from fees for managing - in the widest meaning of the term - these transactions must not be liked, or accepted. Skip them and tell them to try some honest work for a change. Their schemes are as much needed as much as an appendicitis. And they only pretend to solve probolems that without their effort to raise them would not even exist in the first.
Brexit has just deployed the Boris. So that's slashed the odds of us leaving from 5/2 to 2/1.
Catfish
02-21-16, 01:06 PM
Mrs Merkel being insulted as Adolf Hitler, and the EU being the Nazis (by e.g. the "Sun", but by far not only), when just of all England denies refugees the immigration to their country.. some real orwellian newspeak eh?
I would also like to hear what exactly are the british or its population's reasons for this seemingly urgent wish to leave the EU, apart from patriotic bull and commonplace in media like the "Sun".
Brexit has just deployed the Boris. So that's slashed the odds of us leaving from 5/2 to 2/1.
I think that now rules Borris out of the leadership challenge. Yes he may stand but it now looks like Osborne or May and May is the front runner at the moment. I would say the question is who will Borris back for that one. :hmmm:
Never under estimate Cameron that pig poker will pull a rabbit out the hat. :03:
Aside from the usual 'sovereignty' stuff, the other major issue at the moment is (surprise surprise) immigration, and perhaps a very small part in regards to the restrictions regarding government assistance to companies on the open market, in particular our steel industry which is floundering under a ton of cheap Chinese metal.
Terrorism comes up a bit, but is (surprise surprise) often linked to immigration, with Iain Duncan Smith claiming that we're more vulnerable to a Paris style attack whilst in the EU.
In short, it's part patriotic chest thumping, and part fear over strange people coming over from Eastern Europe or the Middle East and taking our jobs/benefits or blowing them up.
I think the latter is something that most of Western Europe is chasing its tail about at the moment.
Somehow I think that, in Scotland at least, the EU referendum will be a repeat of the 2014 IndyRef. Nor would I be too surprised if there's going to be strong undercurrent of England vs Scotland to it as well, north and south of the border.:hmmm:
Mike.
I could have said-May the best side win
I don't- As a EU-skeptical myself I hope the No-side wins and UK/Britain leave EU, that may give us Danish/Swedish EU-skeptical voters a little chance. We may get an election even here.
Markus
Catfish
02-22-16, 04:04 PM
^ i guess all you EU critics and afraid-of-evil-foreigner-immigrants types have to understand that this is not a german problem alone. The whole EU is asked, and if you prefer to get out of the EU for whatever official reason, but really just because of the inconvenience to allow real refugees to seek asylum, this is not much better than what happened in the 1930ies, in England, USA and Switzerland. See Anne Frank, but also lots (100,000s) of others.
Take the advantages, and opt out when things get difficult. Good show.
Onkel Neal
02-22-16, 05:58 PM
I am pretty ignorant of the the whole EU history and reasons, but why in the world would Germany want to be in a union with anyone? German science, technology, and engineering is the best in the world, think of the powerhouse you could be if you were not shackled to .... other countries.
Skybird
02-22-16, 06:08 PM
Take the advantages, and opt out when things get difficult. Good show.That freedom any side always must have, else it is a porked treaty binding and gagging it.
If you do not like it, make according treaties/arrangements. Maybe the EUrocrats - especially us Germans!! - expected too much and too unrealistic altruism and self-sacrifice from others? Maybe our over-idealistic view of what the EU should be (as much a superstate as possible) , is not wise to be assumed to9 be shared by others?
Germans are romanticists. Most others and especially the Anglosaxons, are rationalists. I alway remind of the enlightenment in the Anglosaxon sphere, which was aimed at the realm of reason and ratio. Germans at that time did not follow that "cold-hearted" rationalism - our forefathers instead started to feel the world and to drown in sentiments and to wallow in emotions, et voila, instead of the enlightenment we got the era of the socalled "Romantik". Ratio in Anglosaxony :), romanticism in Germany: or shall we call it irrationality? :O: Somehow Hitler must and can be explained, and it goes a bit beyond just the treaty of Versailles, me thinks. It also is about how the German psyche ticks. And I do not like how it ticks. It is so strongly empotion-driven - and thus prone to irrationality, hysteria, and collective sit-ins.
I cannot help it, I often feel more with the Brits than with the Germans. It serves my cold-blooded temper much better.
Schroeder
02-22-16, 06:10 PM
I am pretty ignorant of the the whole EU history and reasons, but why in the world would Germany want to be in a union with anyone? German science, technology, and engineering is the best in the world, think of the powerhouse you could be if you were not shackled to .... other countries.
The issue is globalization. We have to compete with the USA, China, Russia and some more. A comparatively small country like Germany can't stand up to those alone when it comes to negotiations (TTIP anyone?).
Jimbuna
02-22-16, 06:16 PM
^ i guess all you EU critics and afraid-of-evil-foreigner-immigrants types have to understand that this is not a german problem alone. The whole EU is asked, and if you prefer to get out of the EU for whatever official reason, but really just because of the inconvenience to allow real refugees to seek asylum, this is not much better than what happened in the 1930ies, in England, USA and Switzerland. See Anne Frank, but also lots (100,000s) of others.
Take the advantages, and opt out when things get difficult. Good show.
Is any other government giving a referendum?
Skybird
02-22-16, 06:25 PM
I am pretty ignorant of the the whole EU history and reasons, but why in the world would Germany want to be in a union with anyone? German science, technology, and engineering is the best in the world, think of the powerhouse you could be if you were not shackled to .... other countries.
You talk about a past, Neal. Our palaces were founde doin quick sand. Our economic strength is so massively depending on foreign markets beyond our control, that in fact we are extremely vulnerable, and thus: economically weak. We depend far too much on others. An economy that to our ammounts depends on export, is no strong economy. It is exactly the opposite, due to the dangerously high dependencies.
And you probably have no representative idea of the Zeitgeist and the collective intellectual self-deconstruction over here. Add that to what I just said about German romanticism and hyper-idealism one post above. It is not an exaggeration what I said there. There is unfortunately much truth in it.
Last but not least, the German collective duty of beign ashamed, for all time to come. Our forefather shave been perfect monster,s now we must be perfect ion feeling guilty, me must be the perfect confessors and the perfect comepnsators of that guilt. German perfection in good and in evil, you see. Modern Germans think they owe it to history to allow just any abuse and to do just anything in order to make sure that the whole world loves us. That gives us the feeling that we are no perfect monsters anymore. We MUST be loved by everybody at all cost, and shall not be seen as somebody taking care of his vital interests - that would be selfish, and selfishness is Nazi imperialism.
German psyche was irrational already before Hitler. After Hitler, it was left crushed and raped, and denazification and later a massive swing to the left destroyed the last remains of it. Its a deeply deranged people we are talking of, Neal: it's the Germans. No wonder it is no realistic rationality growing in Germany today in answer to the political abberations of left thinking and poltical correctness, but primitive brown ghosts and spirits again. More robust, more basic, like cockroaches probably survive easier any apocalpyse than higher life forms like dolphins or civilised man.
Skybird
02-22-16, 06:33 PM
The issue is globalization. We have to compete with the USA, China, Russia and some more. A comparatively small country like Germany can't stand up to those alone when it comes to negotiations (TTIP anyone?).
As it is going, TTIP should not be passed, for many reasons. If Germany would say No, the rest of Europe would have no toher choice. Its just that Germany will not dare to say No. Perfect monsters and perfect confessors of guilt and being loved by everybody, you see - just what I wrote beforer.
We must be sure that we are everybody's darling. We are not egoist barbarians anymore. Like Britain, with its selfish referendum. How could they dare to hold a referendum if the riski is real it wiull not be what the EU wants in result? Do they feel no solidarity? Is there no sense for altruism left in Britain anymore? :shucks: We all must be the guardians of our next brothers these days.
Schulter an Schulter mit unseren Brüdern dem sozialistischen Endsieg entgegen!
The issue is globalization. We have to compete with the USA, China, Russia and some more. A comparatively small country like Germany can't stand up to those alone when it comes to negotiations (TTIP anyone?).
I think that's exactly the problem, Skybird talks about German romanticism, in the UK there's a sort of rose tinted spectacles about our nations past, in particular thinking that we're still the Britain of 1950-something and that the rest of the world gives two hoots about what we think or do as a single nation. There was once a time when British and German industry could rival every other nation in the world on its own, when our only rivals were each other, but now Britain has no industry, because any industry we did have just couldn't operate at a profit in the current market. So we rely on tertiary industry, with our farming industry pretty much reliant on EU subsidies for survival (which is something that no-one has mentioned in this whole referendum talk yet) and our manufacturing industry greatly reduced and mostly building stuff for overseas companies.
Quite how people think the UK can stay relevant outside of the Eurozone I really don't know, a lot of our profit has been made from being Americas gateway into the zone, but nationalistic pride will always triumph over common sense.
Is any other government giving a referendum?
I think they're waiting to see what we do...I think the Dutch are being pushed for one, if we leave chances are that they will consider it.
Catfish
02-23-16, 02:52 AM
Is any other government giving a referendum?
Swtzerland of course did (having lots of referendums), but then they never were in the EU, staying neutral in their own special way. Uncoupling their currency from the Euro on one hand strengthened it, but it also makes all swiss products too expensive for anyone else now, so tourism and general export has gone back badly - except weapons, of course.
Sweden and Denmark might have a referendum, others may also consider it.
France has just said to reduce immigration, also Austria, Poland, Hungary and Romania. The last three are of course the paragon of democracy hrrrm. Not that they had a referendum, they just did it and thus violated especially those EU treaties that were installed to guarantee human rights. They also signed certain UN treaties that are violated by this action b.t.w.
Germany is damned anyway, if we welcome refugees we are just of all pictured as "Nazis" (Sun et al.), if we deny them immigration we are, guess what, Nazis. In that respect i'm with Neal, since we are "Nazis" anyway we can as well do what we want :03:
Of course any nation has the freedom to join or leave, and when the decision is based on economical or any other reasonable foundation, go ahead.
But when it is based on buzzwords like "terrorism", "foreign infiltration" and "patriotism"?
Maybe those immigrants want to take our worker's palaces away? :O:
But yes I can understand this, there are also lots of very.. uneasy reactions here in Germany, also plain hate by some. Something i had hoped would be long gone.
Forget the EU and think Europe. It is a humanitarian problem, and it does not affect Germany only. And may i add Germany did not initially cause the problem and did not take part in the Iraq war back then. We take the can for the mess created by others. It is ok and we will still do our part. But we cannot solve this problem alone. Closing borders and going out of the EU for that reason is not a solution.
I see the lies and BS is well under way now and we have four months of this! :huh:
I wonder if the Army will be posted at Polling Stations? :hmmm:
@Steed, enjoy:
Britain's coming home (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk)
Parody song to support the Leave Campaign, grassroots out go !
@Steed, enjoy:
Britain's coming home (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk)
Parody song to support the Leave Campaign, grassroots out go !
What a painful song...:o
I agree with this comment below the video.
Well that's the Eurovision entry sorted.
Dam right only fit for that load of rubbish. :haha:
Jimbuna
02-23-16, 11:45 AM
@Steed, enjoy:
Britain's coming home (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk)
Parody song to support the Leave Campaign, grassroots out go !
Add a couple of decent singing voices and it isn't all that bad :)
Catfish
02-23-16, 01:45 PM
Add a couple of decent singing voices and it isn't all that bad :)
Of course it's good, this is where they "stole" it from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltIbWpHaHmw
I think it was 1998, when this was played 24 hours a day over all radios, in Germany
:up:
Of course it's good, this is where they "stole" it from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltIbWpHaHmw
I think it was 1998, when this was played 24 hours a day over all radios, in Germany
:up:
The original was 1996, but they rereleased it in '98.
I remember the '96 one being very popular at school. :yep:
Jimbuna
02-23-16, 03:24 PM
Yeah, very popular in the UK but for obvious reasons :)
Eichhörnchen
02-24-16, 04:02 AM
...our farming industry pretty much reliant on EU subsidies for survival (which is something that no-one has mentioned in this whole referendum talk yet)
This issue was mentioned last week on Radio4... "Farming Today", most probably (I get up early). Somebody did ask what happens to the farmers when their subsidies disappear, answered with the vague assertion that the government will probably ensure that something is put in their place.
But at the moment I'm for out.
Catfish
02-24-16, 04:11 AM
"They rode in from the South."
"But why?"
Jimbuna
02-24-16, 07:47 AM
This issue was mentioned last week on Radio4... "Farming Today", most probably (I get up early). Somebody did ask what happens to the farmers when their subsidies disappear, answered with the vague assertion that the government will probably ensure that something is put in their place.
But at the moment I'm for out.
I'd have thought seeing as we get less back than what we put in that would be easily sorted.
I'm for out also.
AndyJWest
02-24-16, 07:56 AM
I'd have thought seeing as we get less back than what we put in that would be easily sorted.
I'm for out also.
Sorted by the present British government? I admire your confidence...
In out in out shake it all about the bad mouthing has started and BS is flying about. :D
Over to you Elmo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9zVnjbx7Qc
Catfish
02-24-16, 09:32 AM
Some business wants to threaten Brexit supporters:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/23/brexit-campaigners-should-be-less-quick-to-dismiss-the-threats-of-big-business
I'm sure England alone can prosper without the EU, but what about the rest of the UK?
Angst Referendum
Naughty boy David has started his fear campaign for Bremain already, if you follow him on Twitter
https://twitter.com/Number10gov/status/702073491827326976
https://twitter.com/Number10gov/status/702073880953942016
https://twitter.com/Number10gov/status/701840094769106949
+++
interesting read here imo with bit of UK-Europe and as well UK-EU history:
Britain is part of Europe- like it or not (http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_britain_is_part_of_europe_like_it_or_no t_6007)
"We are condemned to sink or swim together, Britain can leave the EU but it can't leave Europe as history has proven".
That is comforting.
Skybird
02-24-16, 05:22 PM
I expect better of an island that resisted Napoleon while the French dominated the whole continent. Or resisted Hitler while the Germans raped the whole continent.
Britain interacted with continental Europe. But it always stayed different, somewhat apart. after all its an island. And I think that this also forms a mentality, a habit, a way of life, a feeling, a certain kind of self-understanding. I know this island feeling myself: from the years when we lived in W-Berlin and it still had a wall around it.
Island form their own islander-mentality. And that must not automatically be something bad.
Cameron will not so much convince b reason and argument, but by fear. After all, he is playing for continuing his own career. And is his career not worth to see Great Britain being sacrificed to the EU? :88) C'mon, its the big David. You know you owe it to him! :03:
AndyJWest
02-24-16, 05:26 PM
I expect better of an island that resisted Napoleon while the French dominated the whole continent. Or resisted Hitler while the Germans raped the whole continent.
Britain interacted with continental Europe. But it always stayed different, somewhat apart. after all its an island. And I think that this also forms a mentality, a habit, a way of life, a feeling, a certain kind of self-understanding. I know this island feeling myself: from the years when we lived in W-Berlin and it still had a wall around it.
Island form their own islander-mentality. And that must not automatically be something bad.
Cameron will not so much convince b reason and argument, but by fear. After all, he is playing for continuing his own career. And is his career not worth to see Great Britain being sacrificed to the EU? :88) C'mon, its the big David. You know you owe it to him! :03:
I'm glad to see your intimate knowledge about absolutely everything extends to Britishness as well. Perhaps you could tell me more, since my limited experience of the matter (only having lived here my whole life) is clearly lacking...
Onkel Neal
02-24-16, 06:12 PM
I think that's exactly the problem, Skybird talks about German romanticism, in the UK there's a sort of rose tinted spectacles about our nations past, in particular thinking that we're still the Britain of 1950-something and that the rest of the world gives two hoots about what we think or do as a single nation. There was once a time when British and German industry could rival every other nation in the world on its own, when our only rivals were each other, but now Britain has no industry, because any industry we did have just couldn't operate at a profit in the current market. So we rely on tertiary industry, with our farming industry pretty much reliant on EU subsidies for survival (which is something that no-one has mentioned in this whole referendum talk yet) and our manufacturing industry greatly reduced and mostly building stuff for overseas companies.
Quite how people think the UK can stay relevant outside of the Eurozone I really don't know, a lot of our profit has been made from being Americas gateway into the zone, but nationalistic pride will always triumph over common sense.
I think they're waiting to see what we do...I think the Dutch are being pushed for one, if we leave chances are that they will consider it.
You could always lobby to be the 51st state.
You still have Mississippi to boss around. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-would-be-poorer-than-any-us-state-except-mississippi-if-it-joined-america-9693240.html)
Then you too could have the pleasure of serving under President Trump. :/\\!!
Catfish
02-25-16, 05:19 AM
^ Link above did not work properly for me, did you mean this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2736056/Britain-poorer-American-state-except-Mississippi-s-thanks-South-East.html
Even if heavy industry and other has been neglected, London still is Europe's financial center. I don't think they would leave in case the Uk stepped out of the EU. Also the british economy is recovering, if slowly. Telegraph and Guardian desribe the current situation as "the best time ever".
If you look at Switzerland being entirely neutral, it still buys and sells and its economy is strong without being in the EU, the recent uncoupling of the Schweizer Fraenkli from the Euro has only strengthened the swiss currency. Backdrop is of cours that swiss products are now too expensive for all others, and foreign investors begin to hold back.
I am not an economical sage to judge whether this is good or bad in the long run, or if such development would happen in a Brexit-UK as well. :hmmm:
You could always lobby to be the 51st state.
You still have Mississippi to boss around. (http://Britain would be poorer than any US state except Mississippi if it joined America)
Then you too could have the pleasure of serving under President Trump. :/\\!!
:doh:
I think we'll take this opportunity to relocate the home islands to the South Atlantic, just to annoy Argentina.
Meanwhile:
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12733413_10156368102800478_2479102057234084704_n.j pg?oh=756716ccc684f0bf9e586695a8f7bdad&oe=57697B3A
Catfish
02-25-16, 08:37 AM
^ lol But to late, for them.. :O:
I think we'll take this opportunity to relocate the home islands to the South Atlantic, just to annoy Argentina. Maybe Germany could leave the EU and move to .. hmm .. to the Bismarck Islands?
Oops, now New Britain and New Ireland ..
Seems the world has already been partitioned, again :yep:
Onkel Neal
02-25-16, 01:00 PM
^ Link above did not work properly for me, did you mean this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2736056/Britain-poorer-American-state-except-Mississippi-s-thanks-South-East.html
Even if heavy industry and other has been neglected, London still is Europe's financial center. I don't think they would leave in case the Uk stepped out of the EU. Also the british economy is recovering, if slowly. Telegraph and Guardian desribe the current situation as "the best time ever".
If you look at Switzerland being entirely neutral, it still buys and sells and its economy is strong without being in the EU, the recent uncoupling of the Schweizer Fraenkli from the Euro has only strengthened the swiss currency. Backdrop is of cours that swiss products are now too expensive for all others, and foreign investors begin to hold back.
I am not an economical sage to judge whether this is good or bad in the long run, or if such development would happen in a Brexit-UK as well. :hmmm:
Link fixed, yeah, your article makes the same point.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-would-be-poorer-than-any-us-state-except-mississippi-if-it-joined-america-9693240.html
The Czech Republic may choose to follow Britain out of the European Union
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/czechrepublic/12170994/Czechs-will-follow-Britain-out-of-EU.html
Should these expert on EU, who are on Danish and Swedish TV be right when they say this immigrations problem could be the end of the Schengen and EU then this referendum in UK would have no means, that is if the yes win and want UK to stay in EU.
Markus
Catfish
02-26-16, 02:55 AM
Interesting that before WW1, you did not even need a passsport or ANY paper, if you wanted to go to another country, and live there.
Can you imagine what a stop of the Schengen treaty would mean for industry and trade?
B.t.w. as far as i know the UK has never been part of the Schengen treaty, but they "co-operated". Ther was always that special Extrawurst.
Schroeder
02-26-16, 05:43 AM
Should these expert on EU, who are on Danish and Swedish TV be right when they say this immigrations problem could be the end of the Schengen and EU then this referendum in UK would have no means, that is if the yes win and want UK to stay in EU.
Markus
I find it almost funny that Merkel of all people could very well be the doom of the EU.
I see it with a laughing and a crying eye. On the one hand the EU has become a control obsessed Kraken with disconnected idiots in charge who would like nothing more than adding more and more inadequate countries to the union (all empires fell when they got too big btw...:/\\!!) and is in desperate need of reforms away from a European super nation towards a more liberal trade union. On the other hand we've achieved a lot together and it would be sad to see that all go to waste.:-?
Skybird
02-26-16, 06:18 AM
Why the drama? Europe did well with the EWG (EEU) before 1990s. What came after that, wqhat the EUSSR then started wanting to become - a de facto centralised continental state with parasiotes in Brussel benefitting fromt heir new regained de facto feudal positions - must not be wanted one bit. The the border regions, neighbouring peope,m from two coutnries most of the time already cooperated - until it were polticians telling them that they had to march against each other again and have another little war.
Trade is the best political ambassador to improve relations where it really counts - on the level on private human interaction.
I never liked this madness named globalization. Accordingly big corproations also are not welcomed, since they tend to compromise poltical power and to form monopolies.
The EU never was a key issue for the European people. It always has been a hobby of self-declared indispensable career-politicians.
And if you pass the border to another country, I see no problem at all in waiting some minutes and have my ID paper checked, or to prepare my purse by exchanging some coins and notes. What a big super-drama deal!
Anybody would vote for having all apartment and house doors removed from flats and buildings? Hardly.
Catfish
02-27-16, 06:46 AM
No one can tell you what to vote or if at all, you have to decide for yourself.
There is enough stuff in the 'net to see and decide, you don't need to base your opinion from Cameron on one, and the Sun on the other side :D
Just saying, when you read "Britain pays 20 billion to Eu" you should probably see if this sum is right and how much this is compared to other important stuff "Britain" [sic!] pays. And you ecomomy is going up, if slowly, whoever you want to blame this on.
But showing Merkel as Hitler and the EU as Nazis and posting this here, i guess you already made your mind up :haha:
But showing Merkel as Hitler
She's quite talented is Tante Merkel, she's managed to become Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Osama Bin Laden and the Ayatollah all at the same time.
Ordinarily you need to be the US president to do that but she's managed it as the leader of Germany.
Props to her. :up:
Jimbuna
02-27-16, 08:58 AM
No one can tell you what to vote or if at all, you have to decide for yourself.
Precisely....this is most likely a once in a lifetime opportunity for everyone to have a vote, no proportionality, regional or any other form of weighting to be taken into account.
The majority win.
The majority win.
Or lose, as the case may be.
I would like to see the UK and Europe free of these EU gangsters.
I would like to see the UK and Europe free of these EU gangsters.
https://thedisorderofthings.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/nicholas-cage-you-dont-say.jpg?w=540&h=305
https://giant.gfycat.com/SilkyBoringHorsechestnutleafminer.gif
Jimbuna
02-28-16, 07:54 AM
Who'd a thunk he'd go against the will of his master?
The campaign to leave the EU represents hope over pessimism, said Iain Duncan Smith, as he dismissed suggestions a UK exit would be a "leap into the dark".
The work and pensions secretary said leaving would be a "stride into the light", enabling the UK to trade freely and control migration.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35681525
http://madworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screenshot-52.png
You tell those Bastards to fall in line, I am their leader and they will do as I tell them. If they fail I will say all sorts of things about them, I have the power to send them into the gutter!
Jimbuna
02-29-16, 03:04 PM
They have to power to deny you your position as party leader.
They have to power to deny you your position as party leader.
His bags are already packed for his new job in the EU. :03:
Meanwhile...
The Labour peer wades into the EU fray arguing members of the Government campaigning to quit are fortunate not to be sacked.
http://news.sky.com/story/1651447/brexit-ministers-got-off-lightly-mandelson
Jimbuna
03-01-16, 02:59 PM
^Just posted that over on the UK Politics thread.
Catfish
03-01-16, 05:12 PM
"Britain is part of Europe, like it or not." Good article--
http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_britain_is_part_of_europe_like_it_or_no t_6007
"“Fear” slugs it out with “Loathing”." :shifty:
Put up on YouTube last year still worth a look.
URGENT MESSAGE To All British People
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokwQi15pO0&ebc=ANyPxKrFW9xVw6xW4sH4X5YEMbXKwCjEAbrd71MTozn8Ul aWabn_EczDx5I4DTF66534htkBELA1x2wfl82vr_SBI9K74zzk bQ
Yes this video is against the EU.
More up to date and yes anti EU, I noticed something which I will be looking up in due course that caught my eye. :hmmm:
Watch this one first
Introduction to The Peoples Channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETTO6h4TxY8
Second video
Mind Manipulation and Lies - EU Referendum – A Warning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KwEqF2KkI
Catfish, I have a question, and it's not a loaded one or a trick question or anything, because honestly I agree with you on all that you've posted.
I think that the UK is better as a part of a European community, however I don't think that the European community is going to last much longer before it collapses.
So here's the question; Do you think that in the current geopolitical and economic climate, and with the leaders and large Eurosceptic parties that have gained positions of power in Europe, that the EU can survive the next decade?
Put up on YouTube last year still worth a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokwQi15pO0&ebc=ANyPxKrFW9xVw6xW4sH4X5YEMbXKwCjEAbrd71MTozn8Ul aWabn_EczDx5I4DTF66534htkBELA1x2wfl82vr_SBI9K74zzk bQ
Yes this video is against the EU.
That's an eye opener!! Sounds like the 4th Reich to me!!!:doh::oops:
That's an eye opener!! Sounds like the 4th Reich to me!!!:doh::oops:
Long before I held my against the EU point of view I recall a guy I used to work with many years ago said..the EU will succeed where Hitler left off.
That's an eye opener!! Sounds like the 4th Reich to me!!!:doh::oops:
Those who's against EU-Will say
What more evidence do you need ?
Those who's for EU-will say
Every word in this video is so far from the truth about EU.
Markus
Catfish
03-02-16, 04:04 PM
@Oberon
How can i foresee this.. the UK is a part of Europe, and the EU (yet), whatever UK/Britain/England (words of areas, regions, nations, pacts, alliances used change regularly, probably to bedazzle the rest of the world, but especially me) does, Great Britain will always be a part of Europe, geographically.
But this alone includes trade and political influence, in all directions.
First, i do not think the EU will break, even if nations like the new Poland, Hungary, Romania and maybe Greece (which does not even want to leave, but maybe has to) will leave this federation.
Second, the more nations leave the EU, the less word the EU has in the world. But a lot more of this loss applies to the countries leaving.
If England leaves the EU it still has to trade, export and import. Lots of custom barriers again, lots of companies getting problems. Trade with the US only? I do not think this would be competitive enough, but i may be wrong.
So here's the question; Do you think that in the current geopolitical and economic climate, and with the leaders and large Eurosceptic parties that have gained positions of power in Europe, that the EU can survive the next decade?
Yes, i do think so. Maybe not with all the nations that are in it now*.
If England leaves, this will be a heavy blow against the EU, maybe hard enough to let the EU stumble over it.
On the other hand, the EU might get a leap forward, without being held back by the english Extrawurst, and it will be very hard to ever enter again.
Maybe England and Poland can form an alternative organisation? I wish you good luck with Poland as it is now.
OT
I am currently happy some nations are not in the EU, like Turkey. And we have a lot of nice turkish people in Germany, this is only because of Erdoghan.
Some people try to spread panic, and lots of other people jump the bandwagon, without thinking. They were not interested in the EU and too lazy, but now their runs are all the EU's fault.
This vid posted by Steed is a fine example. (Did anyone notice how they are contradicting themselves?) Diffuse fear of foreigners, fear and loathing being canalized on a sudden scapegoat that is guilty of all people do not like, and uncomfortable demands by foreigners on the continent (not quite so cosmopolitan as one might have expected).
Mixed with conspiracy and the fourth Reich. But what has that to do with interest-free money demanded in the vid? People thinking a Brexit-England will get that when it leaves the Eu, have not reckoned with their host. British banks are like all other banks in the world, just of all this good old capitalistic financial system is core-England, and is not "imposed" on anyone by the EU. This is your system, and an international one.
There's so much wrong in this vid i do not want to get into that.
*The EU will surely not break because of immigrants, but maybe for other reasons (you see every recent european nations's political or nationalist idea uses the threat of foreign immigants and illegal aliens raping our women and killing our children, for blaming others and cook their own thing). People are made into believing illegal aliens will rob the workers of their golden palaces (lmao).
As Mr. Kilmister said, if you meet less than ten donkeyholes a day you can call it a good one. Transfer this to political positions in the EU and to national european politicians, we get it full in our faces. :shifty:
This one may be pro EU made back in 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvqYnZJFrBk
EUphoria - What is the European Union?
Please note at 1 hour 25 seconds very near the end how many pro EU people make that effort? :hmmm:
@Oberon
How can i foresee this.. the UK is a part of Europe, and the EU (yet), whatever UK/Britain/England (words of areas, regions, nations, pacts, alliances used change regularly, probably to bedazzle the rest of the world, but especially me) does, Great Britain will always be a part of Europe, geographically.
But this alone includes trade and political influence, in all directions.
First, i do not think the EU will break, even if nations like the new Poland, Hungary, Romania and maybe Greece (which does not even want to leave, but maybe has to) will leave this federation.
Second, the more nations leave the EU, the less word the EU has in the world. But a lot more of this loss applies to the countries leaving.
If England leaves the EU it still has to trade, export and import. Lots of custom barriers again, lots of companies getting problems. Trade with the US only? I do not think this would be competitive enough, but i may be wrong.
Yes, i do think so. Maybe not with all the nations that are in it now*.
If England leaves, this will be a heavy blow against the EU, maybe hard enough to let the EU stumble over it.
On the other hand, the EU might get a leap forward, without being held back by the english Extrawurst, and it will be very hard to ever enter again.
Maybe England and Poland can form an alternative organisation? I wish you good luck with Poland as it is now.
OT
I am currently happy some nations are not in the EU, like Turkey. And we have a lot of nice turkish people in Germany, this is only because of Erdoghan.
Some people try to spread panic, and lots of other people jump the bandwagon, without thinking. They were not interested in the EU and too lazy, but now their runs are all the EU's fault.
This vid posted by Steed is a fine example. (Did anyone notice how they are contradicting themselves?) Diffuse fear of foreigners, fear and loathing being canalized on a sudden scapegoat that is guilty of all people do not like, and uncomfortable demands by foreigners on the continent (not quite so cosmopolitan as one might have expected).
Mixed with conspiracy and the fourth Reich. But what has that to do with interest-free money demanded in the vid? People thinking a Brexit-England will get that when it leaves the Eu, have not reckoned with their host. British banks are like all other banks in the world, just of all this good old capitalistic financial system is core-England, and is not "imposed" on anyone by the EU. This is your system, and an international one.
There's so much wrong in this vid i do not want to get into that.
*The EU will surely not break because of immigrants, but maybe for other reasons (you see every recent european nations's political or nationalist idea uses the threat of foreign immigants and illegal aliens raping our women and killing our children, for blaming others and cook their own thing). People are made into believing illegal aliens will rob the workers of their golden palaces (lmao).
As Mr. Kilmister said, if you meet less than ten donkeyholes a day you can call it a good one. Transfer this to political positions in the EU and to national european politicians, we get it full in our faces. :shifty:
I think it's not so much the immigrants that will break the EU but, as you say, the ammunition that these immigrants and the EUs inability to react to the unfolding situation that will only serve to strengthen the cause of the 'Leave' crowd.
The immigration crisis is probably the biggest crisis to hit the EU since its foundation, and the sheer lack of co-ordination and the selfish actions of many nations (mostly Eastern European) has thrown a spotlight on the organisations biggest weaknesses.
It's possible that the EU will be better off without us in it, we've always been a thorn in the side of any attempt to increase the unity of the organisation, and our Eurosceptic position has encouraged other movements across the EU, and I think you're correct, that Britain will be worse off outside of the EU in many measures. However, unless someone gets up on the stage in the EU and categorically states that everyone in the organisation has to pull their weight or get out, so that rather than Germany taking all the hits in this current crisis it is spread out across the organisation, I can foresee big problems in Germany if Merkels current strategy continues, and it's only fueling and encouraging the likes of PEGIDA and AFD, we've already seen Poland go far right, Hungary is not that far behind it, the Front Nationale in France has increased in popularity but fortunately not far enough to gain major power, UKIP in the UK is statistically very strong, and if our voting system had been arranged through Proportional Representation then they would have replaced the Lib Dems or SNP as the third largest party.
Then there's America, with two blowhards vying for power of the most powerful country on Earth.
It's a very hard time to be a liberal, open minded, peaceful person.
I dunno, I'm not so confident that the EU can survive the future, even if it makes it through the current crisis, it's going to be irrevocably damaged from it, and Europe itself is going to become a very hostile and angry place, and while we can't get away from it geographically, I'm not so sure we should be standing so close to it politically, lest the fallout hit us too. :hmmm:
Perhaps I'm wrong, I hope I'm wrong, and perhaps I will vote to remain in when the vote comes around, a lot of the things that will influence me will be what happens in the coming months in Greece and France and how the EU reacts and tries to organise a way to deal with the issue.
It's just I see a lot of people turning very angry and very scared lately, people who ordinarily not like that, and that makes me concerned for Europes future when fear begins to control politics and peoples voting choices. :nope:
France has a warning for you Brits if you vote to leave the EU! Part of it will be to let the immigrants to cross the channel. Sounds like fightin' words !
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/if-britain-leaves-the-eu-france-says-to-let-migrants-go-to-britain-ft/ar-BBqhoHs
France has a warning for you Brits if you vote to leave the EU! Part of it will be to let the immigrants to cross the channel. Sounds like fightin' words !
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/if-britain-leaves-the-eu-france-says-to-let-migrants-go-to-britain-ft/ar-BBqhoHs
If Britain votes to leave the European Union in a June referendum, France will allow migrants to move to Britain by ending border controls
Some one should tell that dork the agreement we have with France has sod all to do with the EU.
Nothing to stop France tearing it up though.
Jimbuna
03-04-16, 11:15 AM
Nothing to stop France tearing it up though.
True that....but the Channel will once again be our front line of defence.
I hear from Sky News yesterday that French Minister got told off by his boss and the agreement stays in place. As jim said above the channel stands in the way, it seems to be more scare from the stay in the EU lot.
Yeah, the Channel is still in the way...but the Mediterranean is in the way between Africa and Europe and look how well that's gone...not to mention we built two big tunnels under the Channel. :03:
http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-love-the-eu-10.png
http://www.dw.com/image/0,,17463365_303,00.jpg
I love you sweet cheeks.
http://www.pi-news.net/wp/uploads/2015/01/merkel-hollande.jpg
I love you sweet cheeks.
Where's that puke smiley?:hmmm:
Where's that puke smiley?:hmmm:
http://rs231.pbsrc.com/albums/ee81/DynV/emoticons/vomit-boy01-vomit-puke-sick-smiley-emoticon-000652-large.gif~c200
Jimbuna
03-05-16, 09:16 AM
Yeah, the Channel is still in the way...but the Mediterranean is in the way between Africa and Europe and look how well that's gone...not to mention we built two big tunnels under the Channel. :03:
Simples.....we impose the same requirements on the rail and ferry companies that we impose on the airlines.
No entry without the correct documentation and an instant return to start of journey location.
Simples.....we impose the same requirements on the rail and ferry companies that we impose on the airlines.
No entry without the correct documentation and an instant return to start of journey location.
That only works if they come in as passengers, they're not even doing that now, they come via lorries and to stop and scan every single lorry that uses either the Chunnel or the Ferries would slow down traffic and cause massive tail backs.
Then there's the small boats making quiet runs between France and the UK, not so easy to do any more thanks to modern radar, but I imagine that the smarter ones will find ways, tucking in behind cargo ships perhaps to mask the radar return and then darting out to land on a beach at night.
We'd have to up our spending on border security a hell of a lot if the French withdrew their co-operation.
I hear Lord Rose in the Pro EU camp said if we withdraw we would pay higher wages! Is he feeling alright saying things like that?
Jimbuna
03-05-16, 10:31 AM
That only works if they come in as passengers, they're not even doing that now, they come via lorries and to stop and scan every single lorry that uses either the Chunnel or the Ferries would slow down traffic and cause massive tail backs.
Then there's the small boats making quiet runs between France and the UK, not so easy to do any more thanks to modern radar, but I imagine that the smarter ones will find ways, tucking in behind cargo ships perhaps to mask the radar return and then darting out to land on a beach at night.
We'd have to up our spending on border security a hell of a lot if the French withdrew their co-operation.
Those are the possibilities that the counter-measures would have to be funded for to guard against.
It is now up to the electorate to dictate to the government whatever requirement is necessary.
Same for the French mind, massive congestion etc. should they decide to renage on a treaty that has nothing to do with the EU.
EU referendum: Barack Obama to urge Britons to back remain vote on UK visit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-barack-obama-remain-campaign-brexit-europe-a6927731.html)
"Barack Obama will jet into the UK next month and use his star power to convince Britons they should vote to stay in the European Union."
What? Why would he do that? I like the phrase "star power" though.
EU referendum: Barack Obama to urge Britons to back remain vote on UK visit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-barack-obama-remain-campaign-brexit-europe-a6927731.html)
"Barack Obama will jet into the UK next month and use his star power to convince Britons they should vote to stay in the European Union."
What? Why would he do that? I like the phrase "star power" though.
Maybe he wants a job in the EU. :hmm2:
Obama has become an "elder statesman", that is for sure.
Jimbuna
03-14-16, 02:17 PM
I'm not sure many if any of the electorate will take much notice of what Obama will say, taking he is obviously coming to support a PM who is growing more unpopular by the day.
I'm not sure many if any of the electorate will take much notice of what Obama will say, taking he is obviously coming to support a PM who is growing more unpopular by the day.
Maybe so but if he held a surprise general election I can't see old JC winning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BdlbPjqRMT0/T55vN-WJX6I/AAAAAAAABVg/2BtIjCpq-3g/s1600/IMFCAM.jpg
Jimbuna
03-14-16, 02:51 PM
Maybe so but if he held a surprise general election I can't see old JC winning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BdlbPjqRMT0/T55vN-WJX6I/AAAAAAAABVg/2BtIjCpq-3g/s1600/IMFCAM.jpg
On that we can both agree :yep:
Eichhörnchen
03-14-16, 03:35 PM
http://i.imgur.com/2qtFMD9.jpg We're gonna derail your gravy train, Posh Boy...
100 days to go...
http://www.seekwellness.com/images/ardell/gonna-die.jpg
Jimbuna
03-15-16, 02:43 PM
I saw a high ranking American officer on the news today stating a case for a yes vote based on the assumption that any weakening of the EU would have a knock-on affect to NATO :hmm2:
M'yeah, I think I'd file that under B for Bollocks.
There are many good arguments to be made for not leaving the EU, but that is not one of them...
There are many good arguments to be made for not leaving the EU, but that is not one of them...
If we leave we can say good buy to that rough old EU toilet paper and hello silky smooth Free UK toilet paper. :):03:
If we leave we can say good buy to that rough old EU toilet paper and hello silky smooth Free UK toilet paper. :):03:
Well, that's me won over! :O: :haha:
Come on though STEED, even at its worst, EU toilet paper can't beat...
http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/womens_magazines_1950s/bronco.jpg
Catfish
03-15-16, 03:12 PM
If we leave we can say good buy to that rough old EU toilet paper and hello silky smooth Free UK toilet paper. :):03:
Back to good old english economy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-f1mssUeI
:haha:
Back to good old english economy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-f1mssUeI
:haha:
We never had it so good™ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Come_Home)
Well, that's me won over! :O: :haha:
:yeah:
Rough on one side, shiny on the other and seemingly non-absorbent, toilet papers such this ‘Bronco’ brand would be very familiar to anyone over the age of forty.
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/objects/display?id=1790
Oh dear I'm feeling old..."Hey you kids get off my lawn"
I may need my walking stick in 100 days time. :yep: :haha:
If we stay in the EU they will stop me using...
http://d3e4r6ceupz1gi.cloudfront.net/pub/avatar/3475543/corriere/original/eu-toilet-paper.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2qtFMD9.jpg We're gonna derail your gravy train, Posh Boy...
With this?
http://bd24.eu/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/9/5903683001133.jpg
Founder of FTSE 100 broker backs EU exit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35822037
Eichhörnchen
03-19-16, 10:17 AM
http://i.imgur.com/7M4iYGN.jpg "That'll do for me, Tommy!"
Jimbuna
03-19-16, 10:30 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35822037
Owner of at least £2bn :hmm2:
Jimbuna
03-25-16, 09:41 AM
One of the arguments being used by the 'Remain In' campaign is that we are better off with regard to security information sharing with our other partners but it didn't appear to help the Belgians recently and this article actually disagrees.
A former CIA director has said the European Union "in some ways gets in the way"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35898255
https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/713140025647497217
It's a mistake to start giving the terrorists the power to influence our decision to remain in or leave the EU.
One of the arguments being used by the 'Remain In' campaign is that we are better off with regard to security information sharing with our other partners but it didn't appear to help the Belgians recently and this article actually disagrees.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35898255
I was reading on a news site over the course of a few days a government minster stated if we leave we will be cutting ourselves off from vital Intel. Another article by a former worker in the intelligence service world thinks we would be better off out of the EU as the UK intelligence service is the best in Europe and dismisses the government minsters argument on the grounds intelligent sharing has nothing to do with the EU.
Donald Trump predicts Britain will leave the EU and attacks Boris Johnson for criticising his comments about Muslims
The billionaire tycoon has said Britain will vote to leave the EU because people are "pouring in all over the place" as a result of 'crazy' levels of immigration
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/12202941/Trump-attacks-Boris-Johnson-for-criticising-his-comments-about-Muslims-and-predicts-Britain-will-leave-the-EU.html
Never going to happen, the powers to be will make sure of that. :yep:
Jimbuna
03-25-16, 10:12 AM
https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/713140025647497217
It's a mistake to start giving the terrorists the power to influence our decision to remain in or leave the EU.
Oh, I agree. I also believe our NATO and US connexions are sufficient, especially when you add what little I suspect we get from mainland EU.
Most Young Back EU But Unlikely To Vote - Poll
Although most young Britons back staying in the EU, they are far less likely to cast a ballot than older voters who want to leave.
http://news.sky.com/story/1671919/most-young-back-eu-but-unlikely-to-vote-poll
Only way to get the young to vote is offer them free beer and a meat pie.
Only way to get the young to vote is offer them free beer and a meat pie.
Thirty years ago maybe, these days you'd be lucky to get a vote without a free iphone. :O:
Thirty years ago maybe, these days you'd be lucky to get a vote without a free iphone. :O:
Young adults today. :damn:
When the oil runs out and we go back to Victorian times they will be grateful for a free beer and meat pie. :yep: :03:
Jimbuna
04-03-16, 09:35 AM
http://news.sky.com/story/1671919/most-young-back-eu-but-unlikely-to-vote-poll
Only way to get the young to vote is offer them free beer and a meat pie.
I'll take them up on an offer like that but my vote would still be to leave.
I'll take them up on an offer like that but my vote would still be to leave.
Two pints for jim and a big meat pie and chips. :)
Jimbuna
04-03-16, 09:49 AM
Two pints for jim and a big meat pie and chips. :)
Chuck in a savaloy dip and a pot noodle and I'm in :up:
Chuck in a savaloy dip and a pot noodle and I'm in :up:
You got it. :)
Moving on..
Anyone else has noticed this EU referendum non stop hype poll after poll has gone to sleep? Seems it me, probably saving it all to nearer the time.
Jimbuna
04-04-16, 12:17 PM
Give it to a fortnight before and it should get frenetic.
Fortnight? You're hoping. It'll probably start a month to two months before, and then the countdown will begin, television debates probably, political adverts, news report on news report on who has said what.
This is the calm before the storm. :O:
Catfish
04-05-16, 03:39 AM
I'm sure Jim meant the pot noodles.
PM: 'No Apology' For £9.3m Pro-EU Leaflets
David Cameron stands firm over the controversial, taxpayer-funded mail campaign, as he launches a drive to recruit young voters.
http://news.sky.com/story/1674346/pm-no-apology-for-9-3m-pro-eu-leaflets
Well that looks like a good reason to vote out.
Verb, Noun, Pot Noodle? :hmmm:
Schroeder
04-07-16, 01:27 PM
Cameron's best weapon would be to threaten to ban pot noodles if people vote for the Brexit. That would sway the result around. :hmph:
Cameron best weapon would be to threaten to ban pot noodles if people vote for the Brexit. That would sway the result around. :hmph:
I'm sure jim and I can go without. :O:
Schroeder
04-07-16, 02:58 PM
I'm sure jim and I can go without. :O:
Nah, you two are full tilt addicts! Denial is a symptom of the illness.:know:
Nah, you two are full tilt addicts! Denial is a symptom of the illness.:know:
Put me on this addict-list
If our politicians said -we remove all noodles from Denmark if you vote no-It would without any hesitation make me change my view on EU from Negative to very positive
Markus
Jimbuna
04-08-16, 06:01 AM
Nah, you two are full tilt addicts! Denial is a symptom of the illness.:know:
Rgr that :)
Nah, you two are full tilt addicts! Denial is a symptom of the illness.:know:
Pot Noodle season is over, I'm on salads now. :smug:
Schroeder
04-08-16, 06:28 PM
Pot Noodle season is over, I'm on salads now. :smug:
You know it won't last! Soon the craving will start, then the "just one can't hurt" thoughts and before you know it you're are back on it.:yep:
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/Prime-Minister-David-Cameron-Europe-flag-624460.jpg
David here you beloved Prime Minister, now I see many of you still not made your minds up so listen up plebs if we in the UK withdraw the result will be the end of the world! Do you want to see that or vote to stay in for a better brighter tomorrow and put the Great back in Great Britain.
Staying in the EU has many benefits for me and my chums and the banks. As for the rest of you low life vermin you get sod all apart from the fact the world will not end. I'm off to kiss some banking booty now so toodle pip and remember I am not a son of a crook or a crook. :smug:
Jimbuna
04-09-16, 09:33 AM
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/Prime-Minister-David-Cameron-Europe-flag-624460.jpg
David here you beloved Prime Minister, now I see many of you still not made your minds up so listen up plebs if we in the UK withdraw the result will be the end of the world! Do you want to see that or vote to stay in for a better brighter tomorrow and put the Great back in Great Britain.
Staying in the EU has many benefits for me and my chums and the banks. As for the rest of you low life vermin you get sod all apart from the fact the world will not end. I'm off to kiss some banking booty now so toodle pip and remember I am not a son of a crook or a crook. :smug:
http://i.imgur.com/0oV66hR.gif
:rotfl2:
STEED, you should get yourself a job as Cameron's speechwriter.
You are quite creative.
And damn right.
Catfish
04-09-16, 03:58 PM
This is all nice and funny (NOT!), but it does not touch the real problems with the EU. Your hate for Cameron is one thing, but what will any other politician in England do, if he comes to power?
Is there anyone who really opposes the EU except Mr. Farage?
I would hate to see you go because i thinkt the EU is generally a good thing, and it is, partially.
But i have come to the conclusion that
a) England leaving the EU does not have to mean cutting all ties or becoming enemies, on the contrary!
b) Eu-internal ploys to help big companies and ease the TTIP trade deal will only help big money.
The idea of a united Europe is not bad imho, and national chauvinistic thinking should be a thing of the past, but: Lux leaks anyone?
If this all is only a club to help big business, screw 'em!
Leave as long as you can, and let us be friends on another level.
:rotfl2:
STEED, you should get yourself a job as Cameron's speechwriter.
You are quite creative.
And damn true.
Let me think about it. :hmmm:
Bring the enemy down from within. :hmmm:
Jimbuna
04-10-16, 07:12 AM
Boris will be visiting Newcastle soon....oh the drama.
Boris will be visiting Newcastle soon....oh the drama.
Get him boys before he does a Liverpool on us. :shifty: :ping:
Jimbuna
04-11-16, 09:33 AM
Got my pro EU booklet through the door and despite the great expense it cost, after reading it I resigned it to the bin.
Got my pro EU booklet through the door and despite the great expense it cost, after reading it I resigned it to the bin.
Though the post in a envelope or posted by the postman just a leaflet? :hmm2:
You only needed a leaflet STEED, Jim needed a booklet to get through to him, didn't work obviously!!:D
Schroeder
04-12-16, 05:50 AM
You only needed a leaflet STEED, Jim needed a booklet to get through to him, didn't work obviously!!:D
Not enough pictures.:yep:
:O:
Jimbuna
04-12-16, 06:22 AM
Though the post in a envelope or posted by the postman just a leaflet? :hmm2:
A booklet, about ten pages and through the letterbox by whoever.
You only needed a leaflet STEED, Jim needed a booklet to get through to him, didn't work obviously!!:D
Not enough pictures.:yep:
:O:
Cheeky blighters :stare:
Got my one today jim delivered by the postman who had a wodge of them.
Straight away on page one -
The UK has Secured a special status in a reformed EU:
What planet is Cameron living on these days, clearly not planet earth. And from then on the lies the BS the twisted facts, how can anyone believe this booklet after what he tried to cover up in recent days. Like you jim it went straight in the bin.
Eurosceptic not kept in the picture as his photo is used in pro-EU leaflet
A eurosceptic photographer got a shock when he saw a picture he had taken featured in the latest pro-EU leaflet.
A eurosceptic photographer got a shock when he saw a picture he had taken featured in the latest pro-EU leaflet.
Aerial photographer Mike Page, who plans to vote in favour of the Brexit campaign, took the picture of the Port of Felixstowe, Suffolk, for use on the company's website and own promotional literature.
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/eurosceptic-not-kept-in-the-picture-as-his-photo-is-used-in-pro-eu-leaflet-11364051440186
EGG ON YOUR FACE CAMERON! :har: :har:
Jimbuna
04-12-16, 01:36 PM
Looks like the IMF are the latest to pin their colours to Camerons mast...
The UK's exit from the European Union could cause "severe regional and global damage", the International Monetary Fund has warned in its latest outlook.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36024492
With each passing day this looks like yet more overkill.
I hope the voting public will rebel and show him (Cameron) who actually decide who runs and controls the country, if only in theory.
The way its going jim if we break away the UK will be a war zone riddled with plague and the toilet of the world. Yea yea yea....Hope it backfires on this pro EU criminals.
Just remember, once done there's no backing out, this is a huge decision so vote well.:hmmm:
Jimbuna
04-14-16, 06:52 AM
Just watched the Corbyn speech on staying in the EU.
Wasn't he the chappie who has spent countless opportunites objecting to everything it stands for? :doh:
I wonder which union leader wrote his speech :hmm2:
After reading some articles and watching a few videos about the Muslim problems over there I certainly would think twice about joining the EU.
Here are just a few: (Nasty stuff :doh:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAeyOp_INUI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lq3F4CUVIU
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/paris-killings-europe-wakes-face-muslim-problem-video/
http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/11/in-europe-muslim-extremists-turn-to-sexual-terrorism/
Catfish
04-20-16, 03:34 PM
Got my one today jim delivered by the postman who had a wodge of them. Straight away on page one -
Quote: The UK has Secured a special status in a reformed EU:
What planet is Cameron living on these days, clearly not planet earth. n.
The "UK" ? England has a very special status in the EU, yes. It still has the Pound, not the Euro, it controls immigrants and tourists like they are all terrrorists, it still molests the EU with its special status and Extrawurst all the time and in oh so many ways, while securing all advantages for itself and blame all others for own home-made problems, and it is a pain in the donkey in each and every EU voting. And Cameron has even made it all worse :stare:
Congrats :haha:
i can't but admire your complete abstinence of reason while your stubborness will probably still see you through.
But: sorry for being a bit serious here.
If you get out because of EU bureaucracy and idiotic regulations, i'm all with you.
A bailout just because of the diffuse fear of foreigners and immigrants instead of seeing the problems England itself had a good share in (strikes, bad economy while still using the rests of the Commonwealth for trading, and anyone remembers the coalition of the willing) and trying to solve it together, is a downright bankruptcy of your humanity, and wrong.
Ah whatever :nope:
Jimbuna
04-21-16, 06:10 AM
The latest polls still have both sides even. It'll probably be the 15% or so of undecided who will decide the final outcome.
Rockstar
04-21-16, 09:29 AM
Your exit has been prophecied leave or be doomed to the lake of fire. :har:
A new wall mural in north Belfast quotes a Bible verse in support of the campaign for the UK to leave the European Union.
Read more: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/northern-ireland-news/gable-mural-quotes-bible-in-brexit-debate-1-7342081#ixzz46THu0y94
http://cdn.mamamia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/facepalm.png
Onkel Neal
04-22-16, 02:57 PM
So, now Obama has said you should stay in the EO (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks). Guess that settles it, don't make him whup out an EO. :D
Rockstar
04-22-16, 03:14 PM
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/e4995e45eac8d73c0c5400de8f845a1f.jpg
Catfish
04-22-16, 05:32 PM
Ok there's that 15 percent undecided, however if we win again via penalty kick, we know how you will decide.
Also, we let you win two wars. Go. Goooo.
We will miss you.
But what has Paul the Octopus got to say about it? :hmmm:
Jimbuna
04-23-16, 05:56 AM
Also, we let you win two wars. Go. Goooo.
It would appear you conveniently forgot to mention the third world war victory in 1966 :hmm2:
Jimbuna
04-23-16, 06:04 AM
So, now Obama has said you should stay in the EO (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks). Guess that settles it, don't make him whup out an EO. :D
I think he is being a bit of a hypocrite tbh. There are some over here in the UK who say he is more popular here than he is in the US but I honestly wouldn't know.
I doubt he has done himself any favours with the UK population when he suggests we should give up so many sovereign powers to foreign states.
Will he lead by example and open up the border with Mexico to allow free cross border travel for immigrants?
Will he consider dropping the US $ in favour of a Canadian one?
How about allowing the Supreme Court to be submissive to another countries court rulings and law making?
Obama once said “The US guards its democracy with more hysterical jealousy than any other country on earth,”
For the United States to tell us in the UK that we must surrender control of so much of our democracy—is a breathtaking example of the principle of do-as-I-say-but-not-as-I-do. It is incoherent. It is inconsistent, and yes it is downright hypocritical.
I've always liked Obama but right now I'm feeling a little let down with our supposed number one ally.
Skybird
04-23-16, 06:36 AM
It is more grim than just ironic that an American leader told the Brits what Obama told them. It illustrates how far the American establishment has moved away and has abandoned core values and core principles of the American foundation. Founding fathers must turn in their graves.
Jimbuna
04-23-16, 06:41 AM
Putin must be sitting back having a bloody good laugh at the west right now :nope:
Skybird
04-23-16, 07:26 AM
Putin must be sitting back having a bloody good laugh at the west right now :nope:
Erdoghan as well.
Torplexed
04-23-16, 07:37 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cgf2bN1UsAAjkgD.jpg
Interesting campaign ad. Since it's from the Leave side, I kinda wonder if a photo of Dunkirk would have been more appropriate. :)
Don't worry about it guys, President Trump will sort it all out soon.:yep:
Torplexed
04-23-16, 07:43 AM
Don't worry about it guys, President Trump will sort it all out soon.:yep:
Trump probably won't even be allowed by law to set foot in the UK, let alone make any speeches for 10 Downing Street there. :O:
Catfish
04-23-16, 03:17 PM
It would appear you conveniently forgot to mention the third world war victory in 1966 :hmm2:
One more reason. Goooooo.
(:haha:)
Rockstar
04-23-16, 03:33 PM
During an eight-year conflict in Kenya from 1952 to 1960 in which Britain sought to restore order many Kikuyu were relocated. According to David Anderson, the British hanged over 1,090 suspected rebels: far more than the French executed in Algeria during the Algerian War. It was found out that over half of them executed were not rebels at all. Thousands more were killed by British soldiers, who claimed they had "failed to halt" when challenged.
Among the detainees who suffered severe mistreatment was Hussein Onyango Obama, the grandfather of U.S. President Barack Obama. According to his widow, British soldiers forced pins into his fingernails and buttocks and squeezed his testicles between metal rods and two others were castrated.
Knowing that, Im surprised thats all the President said.
I guess what comes around goes around. :o
I have a question, which I can't find anywhere-I can only find words or sentence like-The British has to decide if they want to stay or leave EU on 23th of June.
If a person living in Britain-wants to stay-what should he or she vote or mark on the vote paper ? or if they want to leave EU ?
Markus
I have a question, which I can't find anywhere-I can only find words or sentence like-The British has to decide if they want to stay or leave EU on 23th of June.
If a person living in Britain-wants to stay-what should he or she vote or mark on the vote paper ? or if they want to leave EU ?
Markus
Something like this I think:
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/EU-referendum-ballot-paper-638210.jpg
Jimbuna
04-24-16, 06:52 AM
http://i.imgur.com/EWPMvwJ.jpg
Fahnenbohn
04-24-16, 11:32 AM
http://i.imgur.com/EWPMvwJ.jpg
Funny. In France, you would be considered as a "fascist" for this picture ...
Because nowadays, european people must disappear in a huge open market where everything is for sale and purchase. No more culture, no more morale, no more nations, no more rules. Long live the law of the jungle ! :nope:
Personally, I think that the european solidarity is a very good thing. But this has to be a cooperation, not a forced union where orders are given by a centralised power which only obeys to financial interests (banks, lobbies ...). So yes, I'm against THIS european union too.
Catfish
04-24-16, 12:27 PM
I wonder what Ireland and Scotland will do regarding staying in the UK, if the vote favours an exit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12114578/Will-the-EU-referendum-trigger-the-break-up-the-United-Kingdom.html
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm160222/debtext/160222-0001.htm#16022210000001
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/brexit-vote-scotland-out-uk-scottish-independence
:hmmm:
Fahnenbohn
04-24-16, 03:20 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cgf2bN1UsAAjkgD.jpg
No, they died to solve the financial crisis in the United States, and preserve the international financial interests of parasitic speculators.
:down:
I wonder what Ireland and Scotland will do regarding staying in the UK, if the vote favours an exit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12114578/Will-the-EU-referendum-trigger-the-break-up-the-United-Kingdom.html
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm160222/debtext/160222-0001.htm#16022210000001
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/brexit-vote-scotland-out-uk-scottish-independence
:hmmm:
Brexit may cause issues in Northern Ireland due to the way the Peace Process was agreed by Blair and co.The way things have gone over there post "the Troubles" it would be fair to say that NI's not entirely British, but it isn't Irish either.:hmmm: As far as I'm aware, opinion polls in the Republic are lukewarm at best about re-unification - nice for it to happen (tradition), but not really practical for a number of reason's. Nor can I see Dublin really wanting the thumping migraine that the Unionist population would represent.
As for Scotland, who knows. We have to get the Scottish Parliament elections out of the way first, so the EU Ref isn't the priority it is in England.
Mike.
Meanwhile in Austria:
https://45.media.tumblr.com/26f46d0b6d3e5aac92468c67c72c4a92/tumblr_o4xl2iwhDg1rfd7lko1_400.gif
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36124256
:/\\!!
Onkel Neal
04-24-16, 05:53 PM
No, they died to solve the financial crisis in the United States, and preserve the international financial interests of parasitic speculators.
:down:
Haha!
Rockstar
04-24-16, 09:04 PM
Meanwhile in Austria:
https://45.media.tumblr.com/26f46d0b6d3e5aac92468c67c72c4a92/tumblr_o4xl2iwhDg1rfd7lko1_400.gif
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36124256
:/\\!!
Why is Hitler dancing, isnt National Socialism a left wing ideology? I mean really, a population is disgusted with their current left wing governments lack of action on immigration and the economy excercises their right to vote. Then the voters are accused of being nazis?
AndyJWest
04-24-16, 10:00 PM
...isnt National Socialism a left wing ideology?
No. Not according to serious historians, or indeed anyone with more than a passing knowledge of the subject. The claim that it was 'left wing' has exclusively been made by right-wingers who would clearly prefer to distance themselves from it.
And please, if you wish to dispute this, do so by citing actual evidence regarding the ideology, rather than trotting out the tired old line about the word 'socialism' appearing in the name. Politics is about actions, and not about arbitrary words translated without understanding. And of course, one of the actions to be considered regarding the Nazis is who placed them in power in the first place - it was the old right-wing establishment, who did so because of an exaggerated fear of actual left-wingers coming to power. If the Nazis had been left-wing (rather than merely using occasional leftist rhetoric on occasion when it suited them) you can be sure that the industrialists in particular amongst those who subverted German democracy to place Hitler in power would have acted differently. They did what they did because they wanted the left in Germany smashed. And got what they wanted, albeit with the result that everything else was destroyed along with it.
Catfish
04-25-16, 02:58 AM
... isnt National Socialism a left wing ideology?...
What? :doh: No! :/\\!!
The claim that it [edit: National socialism] was 'left wing' has exclusively been made by right-wingers who would clearly prefer to distance themselves from it. ...
This. Hitler was a dictator. "National socialism" is the extreme right, chauvinistic (in its real meaning) branch of the politic spectrum.
Don't fall for how any political party calls itself.
Hitler named it that way to lure as much people as possible into voting for him as long it was necessary, before the illegal takeover.
You do not call robbing money from the jews and financing a political party and the building up of arms with it, 'socialism'? And all the good companies supported Hitler, in his effort. Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen was then founded, Krupp, Thyssen and whatnot who all saw their chances of making big money. B.t.w. you may include Henry Ford here, too. Only Hugo Junkers did not sympathise with the new potentate, and was therefore 'neutralized', his company nationalised. Heinkel also had some problems, and was called "Heinkel the jew" (what he was not), to discredit him. Who heard of Junkers or Heinkel, after the war?
Back on topic
If Romania and now right-wing-Austria leave the EU, with the UK maybe too, the EU as we know is indeed finished. We will see how the 'secession' states will fare then – my prediction would be: much worse. But it would be soo patriotic.
Then of course Ireland and Scotland can leave the UK, and Germany can crumble away into a hundred kingdoms. And then we have the nice middle ages again.
The one thing i would like about it is seeing Bavaria leave. :O:
I think that you could say that some of the early policies of NSDAP were socialist in nature, the focus on the workers, but that also came at a cost of eliminating a choice of trade unions. Fascism itself does have its origins as a radical offshoot of early socialist thought, however its destination is definitely not liberal or indeed, socialist. The Austrian Freedom Party is described as a far-right movement (or probably just slightly left of center in American politics :O:) and so was the Nazi party. There are some areas where fascism and socialism do cross paths, but ultimately their methods are very different.
Catfish
04-25-16, 07:22 AM
Sorry for OT:
Scientifically, socialism is the stage before it becomes communism. Which never really worked out, in practice. Communism itself also never existed, or may be only "some years ago" in the stone age.
I think the problem some people have, is the influence on production/companies and consumers by "the state":
- If the people have the influence and means, you would call this communism.
- If a few private company leaders competing against each other have the influence and means of production, you would call this capitalism.
If all the people have all the power, and in a way ARE the government since there are no real leaders (political or economical), you would call this communism. When all those people have control about the methods and means of production, this is an automatic by-product of communism.
But, as we have seen, communism does not work. In all cases there has been a dictator finally controlling all, the 'parliament' has no power, let alone the masses.
So the soviet Russia of the cold war never really was communist, or socialist. Stalin, Krushtschov a.s.o. were all dictators, one man at the top reigning with more or less brutal methods.
What IS true is, that they had complete control of the means of production, and there were no individual company bosses, but it did not make them communists. Russia was a dictatorship with a dictator at its head. It never was the people, that ruled.
So was Germany, under Hitler. But: he did not control all the companies, the latter were queuing up to get production orders, and money.
Nothing to do with socialism, or communism. And after all, H. was a communist hater.
Rockstar
04-25-16, 07:33 AM
Matter of perspective I guess. But still, a group of voters displeased with their government freely exercise their right to vote and remove a leaders who in their eyes are useless as teets on a boar hog. Then someone from the peanut gallery comes out and associates them with Hitler and Nazis?
The key here I guess if you think your ideology is the most wonderful and bestest in the whole wide world. Then do your job and dont piss off the voters. But when government sits on its fat arse assuming all is well in the world when in reality its not. Dont be surprised when the day comes and you get voted out. And dont be a sore loser and go around calling people nazis.
double head pound :/\\!!:/\\!!
Aktungbby
04-25-16, 07:45 AM
"National socialism" is the extreme right, chauvinistic (in its real meaning) branch of the politic spectrum.
The one thing i would like about it is seeing Bavaria leave.
We could then say Bavaria is Left?:O:
Catfish
04-25-16, 08:03 AM
...The key here I guess if you think your ideology is the most wonderful and bestest in the whole wide world. Then do your job and dont piss off the voters. But when government sits on its fat arse assuming all is well in the world when in reality its not. Dont be surprised when the day comes and you get voted out. And dont be a sore loser and go around calling people nazis.
I agree, but in Austria this is a protest vote. The current parliament was already on the right side of the spectrum. The voters willingly condoned some chauvinists just to piss lazy politicians off.
And then maybe it happens like in Turkey, where the new "elected president" (by fraudulent manipulation) Erdoghan disposed entirely of free elections, and made himself the head of the state, forever. But then this is always the threat, in a democracy.
Anyway the austrian election is is a decision on a gut level, not intellectual. And there we are back on topic, and Brexit :D
Catfish
04-25-16, 08:06 AM
We could then say Bavaria is Left?:O:
:O: Let's say they'd be left for good (and all).
B.t.w. after WW2 the US administration of Bavaria at some point just quit and left, since they saw the Bavarians would never change. No joke.
Aktungbby
04-25-16, 08:41 AM
:O: Let's say they'd be left for good (and all).
B.t.w. after WW2 the US administration of Bavaria at some point just quit and left, since they saw the Bavarians would never change. No joke. My great grandmother had the same opinion and left Bavaria....in 1890. The Scottish Kincaids left in the "45' for Canada; and some time during the American Revolution a small subclan, the Reids, left revolutionary Massachusetts for Canada. My grandfather then left Canada and went to Connecticut; I am the end-product of a whole lot of very timely leavings. With the current disgusting presidential election, Costa Rica or Vancouver is lookin' good...'voting with the feet' is in the blood!
Rockstar
04-25-16, 05:37 PM
I dont doubt that Hitler was a National Socialist and lead from depths of the lunatic fringe. But we should not doubt that reaching such depths can just as easily be accomplished from the otherside of the political circle as well.
Dont Stalinists see anyone voting, thinking or voicing opinions different than them as a threat and accuse them of evil like for instance calling them nazis, or maybe the bourgeoise elite? You know, to advance their noble cause and all. :D
Skybird
04-25-16, 07:08 PM
Sorry for OT:
Scientifically, socialism is the stage before it becomes communism.
Its more a deceptive manouver. "Socialism" is a way to mean "communism" without getting criticised for it.
Correspondingly, nowadays "social market economy" has become in the West a way to mean "planned economy" without speaking out this term. All for the goodness of social solidarity and social justice, of course. Which are two other deceptive terms to mean socialism (aka communism) without allowing to get criticised for wanting that.
The difference is that there is no real difference between socialism and communism, while there is a big difference between market economy and social market economy. Market economies are social as long as they do not get overwhelmed by monopolism (both state and corporations), while social market economy becomes the more anti-social and right the opposite of what it claims to be, the longer it lasts.
On Hitler, you are being fooled by the popular misperceptions, I fear. National socialism indeed is as socialist and thus: left-leaning as "left" politically could mean. Goebbels already in the early 30s and during the founding days of the NSDAP agitated very aggressively against the possessing class and left no doubt on how dearly they would be cashed if the nationalist socialist movement in Germany would come to full power. And Hitler in a speech to the party in February either 1944 or 1945 expressed that in his view there were no principle differences between national-socialist and bolshewist ideology. If you look at how far the public was owned and expropriated by the state, how the state has organised to full control of any realm of communal life, education, pensions, money, health, law, and ruled unconditionally over the industrial ressources of Germany, you must conclude that Germany was a planned economy from A to Z.
And I think in a way today it is even worse.
It is a ingenious coup by the political left to have successfully raised the false impression that there were fundamental differences between Nazis and socialists, while in truth there are almost no significant ones. This is heritage of the Sowjet "Selbstinszenierung" of course, as the victor over the evil of German national-socialism, while leaving (Soviet and else) socialism unavailable for criticism. The parallels between both are striking, but nobody dares to attack socialism, because it would trigger his brandmarking as a Nazi.
The only thing Hitler added, was the racism card as a strawman case to rally the Germans behind him.
Totalitarianism, collectivism, planned economy, state tyranny, the state's monopole on everything: no real difference there is between Nazism and socialism. The dialect may sound different. The language remains to be the same.
Heck, even the term already gives it away: "national socialism". ;)
I know why I make no principle differences between Nazis and Antifas (German anti-fascists), fascism and socialism. What I dispise in the one, I dispise in the other for exactly the same reasons. And both camps are willing to use the same amount of barbarism and dictatorship and tyranny as the other does. Don't choose between the two. Condemn both. In the end, you are talking about one and the same thing.
Has it never struck you how similiar the terror and the mechanisms of state power unfolding was in the Third Reich and the Sovjet Union? ;)
We are living in the age of strong and blossoming socialism. And since the cold war ended, never has it been this strong and well in the West as today. Socialism as an idea is stronger and more popular than ever before - not in Russia, but here, in the free and capitalist West, the winner of the cold war, the victor over the socialist world order made in the USSR. Hahaha! And never has it been called so rarely by its real name. Obviously there is a strong link between the spreading and boosting of socialism, and the immense inflation of the social wellfare state. It also serves as the primary tool to bribe the voters and to deceive their eyes.
Nobody has nailed it in so clear words and so unforgivingly and uncompromised, as Roland Baader did. The text in THIS LINK (http://www.misesde.org/?p=5849&print=1) is in German, from his book "Fauler Zauber. Schein und Wirklichkeit des Sozialstaates", from 1997.
https://derhonigmannsagt.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/baader-roland.gif?w=500&h=338
AndyJWest
04-25-16, 07:46 PM
" nobody dares to attack socialism"? ROFL. The political right in most Western democracies has done little else for many decades.
Please stop using this forum to plug your half-baked von-Mises-cult 'analysis', Skybird, it doesn't fool anyone, and just makes you look silly.
Sailor Steve
04-25-16, 08:22 PM
Please stop using this forum to plug your half-baked von-Mises-cult 'analysis', Skybird, it doesn't fool anyone, and just makes you look silly.
And a request for you to stop making personal attacks. Anyone is free to state his opinion, so long as it doesn't break the forum rules. If you can refute his argument with facts, please do so. If not, please refrain from dismissive attacks such as this.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_rules3_faq_item
Rockstar
04-25-16, 09:01 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z0jGXSrrL0s/TaxQfybeF_I/AAAAAAAAADo/Q9Fyi_o-k9w/s1600/busted.jpg
Eichhörnchen
04-25-16, 11:51 PM
Some new research apparently reveals that the British public are far more concerned about how this issue, either way, will impact on their PERSONAL finances (food and fuel bills etc) than the broader questions of immigration and the economy.
Let's now see just how long it takes for the Posh Boys to bring out a new forecast of how badly off we'll all be following a Brexit, or maybe they'll even start offering us money if we vote to stay in.
The nearer the day comes, the more frantic their efforts become to prevent the derailment of their gravy train. Someone usefully pointed out that if Obama had been using his own words last week, he would've said that the UK would be last "IN LINE" for trade with the US, not last "IN THE QUEUE", a British expression:
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/queue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA&feature=youtu.be
Buddahaid
04-26-16, 01:07 PM
Good one.
Jimbuna
04-26-16, 01:12 PM
I think he is being a bit of a hypocrite tbh. There are some over here in the UK who say he is more popular here than he is in the US but I honestly wouldn't know.
I doubt he has done himself any favours with the UK population when he suggests we should give up so many sovereign powers to foreign states.
Will he lead by example and open up the border with Mexico to allow free cross border travel for immigrants?
Will he consider dropping the US $ in favour of a Canadian one?
How about allowing the Supreme Court to be submissive to another countries court rulings and law making?
Obama once said “The US guards its democracy with more hysterical jealousy than any other country on earth,”
For the United States to tell us in the UK that we must surrender control of so much of our democracy—is a breathtaking example of the principle of do-as-I-say-but-not-as-I-do. It is incoherent. It is inconsistent, and yes it is downright hypocritical.
I've always liked Obama but right now I'm feeling a little let down with our supposed number one ally.
Adding to the above...
Some new research apparently reveals that the British public are far more concerned about how this issue, either way, will impact on their PERSONAL finances (food and fuel bills etc) than the broader questions of immigration and the economy.
Let's now see just how long it takes for the Posh Boys to bring out a new forecast of how badly off we'll all be following a Brexit, or maybe they'll even start offering us money if we vote to stay in.
The nearer the day comes, the more frantic their efforts become to prevent the derailment of their gravy train. Someone usefully pointed out that if Obama had been using his own words last week, he would've said that the UK would be last "IN LINE" for trade with the US, not last "IN THE QUEUE", a British expression:
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/queue
I think that Obama's speech could well be turning out to be a spectacular own goal by the "in" campaign.....people, even our own "leaders" and "allies", would do well to remember that, on the whole, Brits don't respond well to threats, no matter how veiled, and invariably only gets you a V sign.....
Was Britain 'at the back of the queue' when it came to Iraq and Afghanistan?
Catfish
04-26-16, 01:53 PM
^
Honestly i cannot say whether England will be better off, or not.
But as far as i know all admit by now that attacking Iraq and supporting the IS was a big mistake.
And just of all the nations who did NOT partake then, have to take the major load now, while the creators of that mess are now gallantly chickening away from the consequences. You can show the V-sign as long as you want, this was not a victory, in the middle east. "Misson accomplished", my donkey.
Also England will indeed be at the rear end if they leave the EU, however as far as i know that is exactly what the Brexit supporters want, to re-adjust economy. Maybe this is a wise thing to do, but it will take some time – speaking of decades here.
And first you have to get rid of the banks, since they will not re-adjust without pressure, or they will just leave.
On the other hand, a big difference in economical efficiency between EU-UK may just present those banks with big wins if they stay in London, using the economical slope for their business.
But i do not think the common man will profit from that.
It always gets me when the 'Out' side accuses the 'In' side of being 'Project Fear' when it is only too happy to state veiled threats about thousands of migrants over-running the country if we stay in the EU and all kinds of dire threats to our country because of Europe.
Strikes me that both sides are dishing out their own helpings of fear to an already jumpy subject. :nope:
Jimbuna
04-26-16, 02:20 PM
@Catfish....are you aware of the context the 'V sign' remark was intended?
Rockstar
04-26-16, 02:41 PM
So if the U.K. votes to leave the Union wouldn't that mean a drive towards Nationalism? And if Nationalists wouldn't that be clear evidence that those who are voting to leave the union, well, wouldn't they be NAZIS?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GKfEBkN2aNU/UORj5Ut3fsI/AAAAAAAALbc/uVH-lw-p-Uo/s1600/giffed-hitler06.gif
Fahnenbohn
04-26-16, 04:53 PM
http://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/IMG/arton20574.png?1381082463
Jimbuna
04-26-16, 05:11 PM
:ping:
So if the U.K. votes to leave the Union wouldn't that mean a drive towards Nationalism? And if Nationalists wouldn't that be clear evidence that those who are voting to leave the union, well, wouldn't they be NAZIS?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GKfEBkN2aNU/UORj5Ut3fsI/AAAAAAAALbc/uVH-lw-p-Uo/s1600/giffed-hitler06.gif
Some (https://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/11/bnp-member-list-households-displaying-ukip-posters/) would (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/former-bnp-leader-nick-griffin-says-he-ll-vote-ukip-9893376.html), yes (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10735155/Nigel-Farage-I-am-proud-to-have-taken-a-third-of-the-BNPs-support.html).
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/16/133916-004-F0B47751.jpg
Rockstar
04-26-16, 10:27 PM
https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M2c74e0ae12110778d53efce22c1c257fo0&pid=15.1:03:
Eichhörnchen
04-26-16, 11:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA&feature=youtu.be
We can be outside of the EU and remain signatories to the ECHR, but it's a requirement of EU membership to be a signatory to ECHR. Resigning (as is the wish of some Tories) would mean loss of EU membership anyway.
https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M2c74e0ae12110778d53efce22c1c257fo0&pid=15.1:03:
Only McCarthy can save us now! :O:
We can be outside of the EU and remain signatories to the ECHR, but it's a requirement of EU membership to be a signatory to ECHR. Resigning (as is the wish of some Tories) would mean loss of EU membership anyway.
This is true, although quite honestly I wouldn't trust the Tories or UKIP not to resign from the ECHR if we left the EU, just because it ties their hands on some things. I mean look at the dogs mess that is their current dealings with the NHS. :nope:
Quite honestly I'm still in the undecided crowd although leaning towards the 'Remain' option if only because of our economic security, but I do have my doubts about the longevity of the EU with its inhabitants all pulling in different directions.
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