Brexit ?

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/esAgIRp.jpg?1

[MGR1]

One from Brian Taylor, BBC Scotland's Political Editor (note, he does have a tendency to wax lyrical...:shifty:):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36625068

Reactions from around Scotland:

Glasgow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36620366

Dundee - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-36619374

Edinburgh - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36620276

Dumfries - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36620036

Aberdeen - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-36618743

Highlands - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-36619344

Anyway, that's Ruth Davidson arguing against a second IndyRef:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36613544

Mike.:hmmm:

[Skybird]

Superb German opinion piece in Die Welt, going to where it hurst:

in German: LINK (http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article156536868/Ploetzlich-ist-die-EU-nur-noch-die-Haelfte-wert.html)

Volltreffer.

[eddie]

My question for our members from the UK who understand this a whole lot better then I do, is-Was this a vote against the EU or was this a vote that said we are fed up with Cameron?

[MGR1]

My question for our members from the UK who understand this a whole lot better then I do, is-Was this a vote against the EU or was this a vote that said we are fed up with Cameron?

For disgruntled Conservatives, it was both.

For everyone else who voted Leave, it was against the EU.

Mike.

[Skybird]

Next question, naturally, must be: to what degree had the assassination of Jo Cox an effect? Would the lead by Brexit been even bigger without that sympathy-invoking event making some people vote for Bremain?

Maybe not polite to ask this, but the question is valid.

[STEED]

Well after the stock market sell off it closes higher than Monday's close.

Lets see what next week holds on the political and trading fronts.

[Catfish]

Next question, naturally, must be: to what degree had the assassination of Jo Cox an effect? Would the lead by Brexit been even bigger without that sympathy-invoking event making some people vote for Bremain?

Maybe not polite to ask this, but the question is valid.

Psychologically, it will have worked like the assassination on the modern israelian minister back then, it lead to a right-shift and the hawks having their say fo decades to come.

[Oberon]

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-Wdk9-ySBsZg/TqrwSR3uilI/AAAAAAAAAmw/xWwWhdKS7Hc/Wile%252520E%252520Coyote%252520catches%252520Road %252520Runner%2525203_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800

[mapuc]

For those of you, who voted Leave congrats to your win

For those of you who voted Remain-I feel your defeat, whoever its not the end of the world/UK/Britain/England.

Markus

[Oberon]

whoever its not the end of/UK/Britain.

Actually, it might just be. :dead:

[Catfish]

If Scotland and Ireland decide to hold a separate referendum of leaving the UK to stay in the EU.. i doubt it though. Too much chaos in the moment.

[mapuc]

Actually, it might just be. :dead:

While writing my comments I didn't know if I should write World as the only word or only use England Because I have throughout the day heard about Scotland and Northern Ireland talking about referendum.

Markus

[Oberon]

While writing my comments I didn't know if I should write World as the only word or only use England Because I have throughout the day heard about Scotland and Northern Ireland talking about referendum.

Markus

Yeah, it's just Norn Iron and Scotland making noises, Wales voted in line with England so they'll stay, and Cornwall...well, no-one really knows what Cornwall is thinking. :O:

[Nippelspanner]

I find it amusing how all the right wingers cheer and act as if Britain will be the Empire of milk and honey in a week or two just because of this, while in reality, no one can say for sure what this will cause. :yeah:

[Oberon]

I find it amusing how all the right wingers cheer and act as if Britain will be the Empire of milk and honey in a week or two just because of this, while in reality, no one can say for sure what this will cause. :yeah:

Indeed, and there's going to be a lot of unhappy youths given the way the vote split went in age groups, they're going to feel, rightly or wrongly, that the older people of this country have robbed them of their future, and that's going to blow back somewhere down the road.

This comment in the Financial Times that has been circulating social media sums it up well:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cls2sU3XEAACuaV.jpg:large

[Nippelspanner]

Indeed, and there's going to be a lot of unhappy youths given the way the vote split went in age groups, they're going to feel, rightly or wrongly, that the older people of this country have robbed them of their future, and that's going to blow back somewhere down the road.
But...but Oberon... Britain first!! (though no one knows what that means)

[Oberon]

But...but Oberon... Britain first!! (though no one knows what that means)

Death to traitors, freedom for Britain! :dead: :nope: :/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

(And Farage has the gall to say that he 'won' without a shot being fired....Jo Cox would tend to disagree with that.)

[Bubblehead1980]

Beyond proud of our relatives across the pond as the people have chosen their sovereignty over subjugation to the monstrosity known as the EU.When obama, the political establishment in Britain, media, and global power brokers are against it, know that made the correct decision was made.Hopefully this is the first shot(so to speak) that will bring about same for once great nations such as a France to save their nation before it is too late. Hopefully this will translate to not electing Cruela Devil in November and both Britain and America can be great again.

[mapuc]

Some response from our Danish Politicians

Former Danish party leader for the Danish Social democrats Mogens Lykketoft

"Rebuke Cameron: A fault to let the people decide" Between the lines-The British people is not clever enough to make such a decision.

Markus

[Oberon]

If Bubbles is congratulating us then you know we've screwed up.

[Julhelm]

Some response from our Danish Politicians

Former Danish party leader for the Danish Social democrats Mogens Lykketoft

"Rebuke Cameron: A fault to let the people decide" Between the lines-The British people is not clever enough to make such a decision.

Markus

It is referendum results like this one that really bring out the establishments despise for ordinary people and their firmly anti-democratic opinions into the light for all to see. After all, career politicians know better than us what's best for us.

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cltv36fXIAApUqS.jpg:large

[Catfish]

^ yes, not only because of that i think England (not the UK) has made a mistake.

Now the UK can deport all 20 million EU workers that have become illegal, in a day. If we let people have their say about all decisions, we will have the death penalty, huge alcohol reserves and a future that ends in a week from here. This is all about short sighted egoism. And it is very very dumb.

[Bubblehead1980]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cltv36fXIAApUqS.jpg:large


Boo hoo boo hoo. Emotional dribble.

[Bubblehead1980]

^ yes, not only because of that i think England (not the UK) has made a mistake.

Now the UK can deport all 20 million EU workers that have become illegal, in a day. If we let people have their say about all decisions, we will have the death penalty, huge alcohol reserves and a future that ends in a week from here. This is all about short sighted egoism. And it is very very dumb.


Brits survived Hitler and The Blitz, they can certainly over time deport 20 million illegals and find their own unemployed jobs.May have to pay a decent wage with cheap labor gone.Kind of like if we actually deported the illegals here and stopped allowing H1B workers.No wonder the powerful interests and their politician puppets(on both sides of the pond) were against Brexit eh? hmmm

[Bubblehead1980]

If Bubbles is congratulating us then you know we've screwed up.


Personal bias against me has nothing to do with this.

Congratulating Brits on wisely reclaiming their sovereignty and rejecting global collectivism which is pushed by powerful business interests and their puppet politicians so they can pay less and acquire more.Should wake up and be proud of your nation.Hopefully my nation will follow the lead in November and reject Cruela Devil, as she is one of those puppet politicians.

[Oberon]

Aye, he's the type that would applaud this:

http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article8213029.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/JS92765699.jpg

Or this:

http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/564b63a41f00002400f3cf97.jpeg

[Catfish]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

"No one ever remembers the past." (Catfish)

Fear of immigrants, my donkey. Didn't Nigel Farage use the very cartoon from above, for his campaign :nope:

But hey, Bubblehead is right: Boris and Donald will be the best of friends. Beautiful times ahead.

[MGR1]

Calmly, peeps, calmly - let's not allow the thread to degenerate, shall we?

At this point in time there's no point getting into a urinating contest.

We'll all have a better understanding of where we stand in due course.

Mike.

[Onkel Neal]

Google search spike suggests people don't know why they Brexited (http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12022880/google-search-spike-brexit-why-leave-eu)

Google's Trends Twitter account reported an increase of 250 percent in people searching "what happens if we leave the EU," at around midnight British time, two hours after the referendum polls closed.

Be careful what you ask for, oh, too late, you got it.

[Oberon]

Google search spike suggests people don't know why they Brexited (http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12022880/google-search-spike-brexit-why-leave-eu)



Be careful what you ask for, oh, too late, you got it.

As I put on the book of faces this morning, we reap what we sow. :dead:

[Skybird]

If Scotland and Ireland decide to hold a separate referendum of leaving the UK to stay in the EU.. i doubt it though. Too much chaos in the moment.
If the EU would consider to let two net receivers in, this time as sovereign states, then this would indicate that the EU still has not realised what hour the clock is showing. The UK received a lot of its spendingds back via special rabates, but still was a net payer. Scotland and Ireland will not be able to be net payers. They will not ease but increase the burdens for the EU net payers. From a German perspective I must say that is the last thing we need: increasing our bills. I love Riverdance and Amy Macdonald, but they do not compensate for N-Ireland'S and Scotlands economic weakness. And I reject for principle reasons - already since long time before - to let in candidates who are not strengthening but weakening a union.

Other regions/countries of EUpistan stand in line already to hold referendums, too, soemthigntnhat the EU will try to prevent at all cost, even if needing to play dirty. France. Holland. Austria. Poland. All countries where scepticism of the EU is quickly growing.

Juncker on German TV just half an hour ago said that the EU now needs to revive its "old" ideals (I thought he was talking of the new ones that came after the end of the cold war and brough us to where we are today...) , and that he demands that progress is being made quicker with integration and enforced unification. And that migration rules must be binding for all. And bla and bla and blablabla.

I welcome this unwillingness by this moron to read the scripture in today's events. He will help the EU to flew apart at all directions faster than I would have dared to hope. Go ahead, Jean-Claude, I'll applaude you all the way!

He also pointed out quite clearly that he hopes for the independence debate regarding Ireland and Scotland ripping the UK apart. "And then we will see what people think about today", he ended. It's as I feared: the Scottish and Irish "issue" will be instrumentalised by the EU in an act of revenge, and executing a deterring example.

After the US and France, GB is Germany's third-biggest trading partner. France is in deep turmoil, unable to reform, and driven by fantasies to inflate money and debt levels faster than it takes me to say "hell and fire". If France fumbles, too - and it will, it cannot dodge the consequences of its economic self-ruining forever -, then that was it with the EU. Without a superstrong running German economic engine to pay for the show, its game over for the EU.

[Nippelspanner]

Google search spike suggests people don't know why they Brexited (http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12022880/google-search-spike-brexit-why-leave-eu)



Be careful what you ask for, oh, too late, you got it.
This is SO embarrassing, it makes me cringe.

If one really believes Brexit is good because he is convinced and shares the according political opinions - totally fine.
But that is exactly the problem: THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY DID! :/\\!!

It's like in a comic:
"Don't push the red button if you aren't aware of the consequences!"
*Brit pushes the red button because why not*

[Oberon]

Meanwhile Daesh are getting jealous at our ability to break Europe better than they can:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/24/brexit-vote-isis-calls-followers-paralyze-europe/

[Skybird]

Google search spike suggests people don't know why they Brexited (http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12022880/google-search-spike-brexit-why-leave-eu)

Be careful what you ask for, oh, too late, you got it.
If so, tja, dumm gelaufen. I warn of politicians and catch phrases and empty paroles and promises all day in and all day out.

You cannot only have a right to cast a vote. You also and inevitably have the right to be held responsible for your vote. Often overlooked...

[Bubblehead1980]

Aye, he's the type that would applaud this:

http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article8213029.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/JS92765699.jpg

Or this:

http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/564b63a41f00002400f3cf97.jpeg


Oh the tired old Nazi references. Hyperbole

Sorry, but having an issue with immigration and it how it harms actual citizens, you know those with a right to be in their country is not nazism, xenophobia, racism, or whatever bs term is used to smear those who are standing up for their country.Nothing more than political correctness from hypersensitive people.I understand the hypersensitivity given events of 1930's and 40's, but enough is enough.

What is happening is the people, the majority are rising up against the so called "elites", the powerful and their puppets.This is happening in the US with the ascent of Trump and in Britain with Brexit.Once great countries such as the US and Britain have nearly been ruined by globalism and their people have suffered greatly and continue to.Nations can be salvaged and made great again if we start now.The people are awake and perhaps Brexit is the first step.Hope to see the US follow suit in November and not elect Cruela Devil.Hopefully France and other once great nations will follow suit of Britain and reclaim their sovereignty.

[Bubblehead1980]

Google search spike suggests people don't know why they Brexited (http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12022880/google-search-spike-brexit-why-leave-eu)



Be careful what you ask for, oh, too late, you got it.


The post vote propaganda being spewed by those in power and their puppets such as the media is having an effect, causing some "buyer's remorse". Still amazes me how effective propaganda is on the masses.

[Oberon]

I understand the hypersensitivity given events of 1930's and 40's, but enough is enough.

So we should stop making sure that we don't end up walking into making the same mistakes again? That it's fine if people use divisionist language to turn one set of people against another by de-humanising them?

[Skybird]

I never cared for Thatcher, and never was especially interested in her. Don't know a lot about her either. But this speech at Bruges from 1988 that I got linked to today, repeatedly caught my attention:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3562258/Full-text-of-Margaret-Thatchers-speech-to-the-College-of-Europe-The-Bruges-Speech.html

Well spoken, Ma'am.


Europe is not the creation of the Treaty of Rome. Nor is the European idea the property of any group or institution.

We British are as much heirs to the legacy of European culture as any other nation. Our links to the rest of Europe, the continent of Europe, have been the dominant factor in our history.
(...)
The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one.
(...)
The European Community belongs to all its members. It must reflect the traditions and aspirations of all its members.
And let me be quite clear. Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community.

That is not to say that our future lies only in Europe, but nor does that of France or Spain or, indeed, of any other member. The Community is not an end in itself.
Nor is it an institutional device to be constantly modified according to the dictates of some abstract intellectual concept. Nor must it be ossified by endless regulation.

And that was not even the EU, but the EEC.

[Catfish]

Oh the tired old Nazi references. Hyperbole

Yes, if you did not see it, it was used by "Brexit" Nigel Farage, to warn of foreigners and immigrants.

What is happening is the people, the majority are rising up against the so called "elites", the powerful and their puppets.This is happening in the US with the ascent of Trump and in Britain with Brexit.Once great countries such as the US and Britain have nearly been ruined by globalism and their people have suffered greatly and continue to.Nations can be salvaged and made great again if we start now.The people are awake and perhaps Brexit is the first step.Hope to see the US follow suit in November and not elect Cruela Devil.Hopefully France and other once great nations will follow suit of Britain and reclaim their sovereignty.

I just let that stand here. it is just that "the people" are tired of learning and understanding, instead they blame the "elites" that make their life soo bad. And life in England has been soo bad with the EU, when you think of England's economical state in the 50ies, and 60ies.
And Trump is of course not from an elite, with his Golf parcours in Dubai, Qatar etc., who is one of the biggest winners of your globalism. Something you invented, by outsourcing everything to China.

[Respenus]

Ah yes, the (in)famous College of Europe speech, a topic of many a debate.

What is ironic in fact, is that the British have yesterday rejected a one of the principles she considered necessary for Europe to succeed:
Willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.

Now, of course, one can debate what independent sovereign states mean in the modern context (the world has, after all, changed in the last three decades), but it is the willing and active part that is often forgotten.

Is is also this part that was referred to by Juncker when he spoke of the need for Europeans: far too many capitals wish to see benefits, without actually trying to work for them; this goes across the divide of new/old, Eastern/Western Member States.

Oh, an another thing that Thatcher was supporting off, but which makes current-gen "Eurosceptics" rabid:

We should develop the WEU, not as an alternative to NATO, but as a means of strengthening Europe's contribution to the common defence of the West. Above all, at a time of change and uncertainly in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, we must preserve Europe's unity and resolve so that whatever may happen, our defence is sure.

[mapuc]

What a day it has been

Last night when I went to bed the exit polls and the first result showed that Britain had decided to stay in EU.

In the noon when I got up and watch the TV It was an extra news schedule and it was about the Brexit

I like What !??

I was also thinking about the last comment in this tread before I logged out

Something about "48 for leave and 52 for remain its time to celebrate"

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Something about "48 for leave and 52 for remain its time to celebrate"
"Man soll den Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben!"

[Bubblehead1980]

Yes, if you did not see it, it was used by "Brexit" Nigel Farage, to warn of foreigners and immigrants.



I just let that stand here. it is just that "the people" are tired of learning and understanding, instead they blame the "elites" that make their life soo bad. And life in England has been soo bad with the EU, when you think of England's economical state in the 50ies, and 60ies.
And Trump is of course not from an elite, with his Golf parcours in Dubai, Qatar etc., who is one of the biggest winners of your globalism. Something you invented, by outsourcing everything to China.

Okay, there is nothing wrong with warning about foreigners and immigrants and potential dangers, given the world we live in.That is the problem, people are so PC and worried about not being "inclusive", they forget to preserve their own culture and nation, worry about their own people first.

Not all wealthy people are "ELITE". Trump may be "ELITE" money wise but why is he so despised by the ELITES? Because he is not part of the club.Trump was not part of the club when went from "small time" real estate and into Manhattan.Trump is seen as noveau riche, and he is still not part of the club.Half way accepted because of his wealth, but not fully.Trump plays by his own rules. I have seen nothing that makes me doubt he sincerely wants to see America be great again.Such a simple, uncomplicated slogan but it is great.America is failing because of corrupt politicians who are puppets of the elites and their policies that are not helpful for average people, such as immigration etc.Trump is also the Alpha and in these emasculated times, it's wrong to be the Alpha according to many.Look at our current President, one of the more emasculated "men" to ever hold the office.

Yes, Trump is wealthy and would love him to be a bit more articulate and serious at times, but he is intelligent and has the right motivation, which is to restore this country.Sure, he was a winner in globalism, he was not in power nor did aspire to the office at the time.After watching the cycle of stupidity and harm, he has decided to run while he is able, he just turned 70.Trump is arguing against something that benefits him, yet the political puppets on both sides oppose him as well as the media.hmmmm

Same reason Britain voted to leave EU, that once proud nation has deteriorated into a shell of it's former self but could be salvaged and this is the first step for them.Hopefully, our first step is in November and this revolution keeps going.

[Skybird]

What is ironic in fact, is that the British have yesterday rejected a one of the principles she considered necessary for Europe to succeed
Have they?


Now, of course, one can debate what independent sovereign states mean in the modern context
Can one?

Is is also this part that was referred to by Juncker when he spoke of the need for Europeans: far too many capitals wish to see benefits, without actually trying to work for them; this goes across the divide of new/old, Eastern/Western Member States.
Juncker is one of the greatest proponents of easing fiscal discipline and has tremendously helped, like practically everybody else, to erode the legal obligation of that no state shall be allowed nor obliged to finance the debts of another state, and that the ECB should not finance the debt-making of states, and so on: all those damn lies and violations of laws and treaties that dress the Euro's history from head to toe. Juncker is one of the most unscrupulous liars and fraudsters in the whole EU hierarchy. It is a big mistake to pout any trust in words that he blew inbto the air. Even laws he wilkl ignore the next day, if he finds that opportune. And he has even be arrogant enough to openly admit that in the past. Repeatedly.

Also, by having gone beyond a union for economic cooperation and wanting to become a cultural supersphere and a master-educator for half a billion people , Brussel now mixes things that do not match together. A free trade arrangement without private secret courts. Freely market-negotiated currencies in every nation that can allow nations to compensate for their economic competitveness level. Avoidance of any form of state-driven protectionism. The right to freely travel between nations, but with controls at the border to fight smuggling, criminal gangs trafficking, and terrorists, is desirable, too; so is in form of a restrengthening NATO: military cooperation to defend a clearly defined territory that gets marked by the outer borders of the memberstates. - Thats all that peace and good neighbourship needs for us in europe. And more I do not need nor want, and will not tolerate. All that ideologcial ballast and foreign law making and enforced collectivism - not wanted here, keep it away, and well-hidden.

We should go back to the goals of the early EEC. And only economies of comparable strength should form such a union. Or two such unions that exist parallel to each other, maybe even three, I don't know. The Euro disaster has mercilessly shown that it does not work to throw together economies that are not on roughly same eye level. It never has worked in history, with so many attempts of currency unions already - and with partners even having been economically much closer, and with fewer participants. They never have worked for lasting existence, they all failed. It did not work when everythign was easier - and the EU narcissists only concluded from that that if they try the most difficult of such constellations ever, with the most members ever, they would succeed and the laws of economics would bow to the dreams of ideology and megalomania. We see where it led us. Madness, growing tension, hostility between people again , and financial armageddon this century, probably before it even has reached its halftime.

Oh, an another thing that Thatcher was supporting off, but which makes current-gen "Eurosceptics" rabid:What you indicated there, already got put into relation by Thatcher herself back then, in the passages that I marked in my quotations.

The EU sees itself as synonymous with "Europe", and so do you, but that is right the problem. And that she has made very clear back then already. The EEC is not Europe. And is no end in itself.

Better see her speech in completeness, not just some picked cherries. She was in defence of Europe, yes, so was Churchill - but both meant by Europe something that in no way has something to do with what the EU now is, and wants more of.

[Betonov]

https://scontent.fbeg2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13501870_10157072798790483_4643129784211734007_n.j pg?oh=3a8d87c0347edb62c569f4870d79ab58&oe=57F56F63

[BossMark]

No more EU no more Cameron, the only worry is that idiot Boris Johnson becoming PM.

[Hawk66]

Google search spike suggests people don't know why they Brexited (http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12022880/google-search-spike-brexit-why-leave-eu)



Be careful what you ask for, oh, too late, you got it.

I still cannot believe what happened and my last words in this thread is a quote from Albert Einstein:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

[Betonov]

I won't erase the UK from my ''countries I'll immigrate to after I finish study'' though.
I'll just apply for visa.

[Oberon]

We just have to hope now that the EU doesn't want to make an example of us in order to encourage other member states not to leave. Of course, if they do decide to do this then it will certainly display their true colours and the Brexit group will have a moral high-ground...but the snag will be that our economy will be in the u-bend, along with the country.

[Betonov]

We just have to hope now that the EU doesn't want to make an example of us in order to encourage other member states not to leave. Of course, if they do decide to do this then it will certainly display their true colours and the Brexit group will have a moral high-ground...but the snag will be that our economy will be in the u-bend, along with the country.

It all depends if the lesser states (such as not Germany and not France) see it in a more hostile way and decide they won't be bullied.
They would only need a rally point, which Poland or Hungary will be more than willing to provide.

[Mittelwaechter]

The more I try to understand what happened, the more I see arrogance at work. Sure about controlling the media - and with it the perception and consequently the motivation of the people as usual - the CAPs (mostly London high finance in GB) may have become sloppy and casual. Their true surveys - the ones they run to verify the perception control - may have been based on data conveniently accessable in the London area. Misinterpreting the overwhelming pro-EU mood in their own parallel world - and tending to give a tuck on the rest anyway - they didn't realize the true disposition of the Society.
They were in control of their 'London majority' - and may have extrapolated it pretty careless onto the whole country.

The inattentive (cost efficiently working) survey agency doing the job will have a problem, I guess. Maybe we will be able to observe the clash and it's result.

The media is losing control, the politicians are losing control - the rulers have a problem. The beginning of the end, just as it was in the middle ages?

We should prepare to take control this time - and agree on the future we want to live in. I suggest without legal criminals.
Maybe we should grant them some form of reservation, as there are many still following their religion.
We just have to make sure, they can't expand into the honest, peaceful world - like we do with criminals traditionally.

So we could arrest the 1%...

[Skybird]

The German former conservatives from Merkel's claquer club want to run an example against Britian, to intimidate others, so wants the fat leader cats on the EU bridge. The German SPD socialists want to focus on avoiding to smash more porcelain and instead want to give Britain a special status that allows most of the trading ties and treaties to work as before, more or less, to minimise damage both to Britain and the EU, and to German exports. What Merkel wants, is - as usual - unknown, but her past record shows that one can trust in that she will manouver according to what is needed to stay in power. And she can turn her head on her shoulders by 720° and from one day to the next, if needed.

I prefer the moderate, economic perspective.

Precondition is that Cameron does not play games (the divorce letter sent not before October is such a trick), and EUcrats must control their hunger for revenge and resist the temptation to teach the disobedient subjects a lesson that nobody will ever forget.

If you look at it all one day later, its not the sky falling. We will get used to it, and life will move on.

More troubling is the growing tendency in the UK to split up. I hear that now even London City has a referendum on wanting to become independent. Of course, libertarian that I am, I accept regional populations claiming sovereignty and independence, but I would regret if things would lead this far.

However, no matter whether its the Irish, the Scots, or the Londoners: they must be sure that they can afford it to be sovereign, I totally reject any perspective for them to enter the EU. Last thing we need is more boarders we need to feed through.

If you cannot come up for your living costs all by yourself - then you are not sovereign at all, but you are dependent.

[STEED]

David Cameron our Prime Minister has shown he is a coward by stepping down which will result in a new unelected Prime Minister and this is wrong. I urge the people in the UK to contact their MP and tell them you don’t want an unelected Prime Minister, demand this must never happen and a general election should be held and to hell with their BS.

Now the result is known it is our duty to watch our MP’s and the government and not fall back to sleep saying job done. The job is not done, we have a massive problem with British politics and to me its clear. If we just walk away these politicians will continual to walk all over us. People in the most part have forgotten the golden statement..

THEY WORK FOR US

And not the other way around as it stands now! It is our duty to make sure our politicians don’t pull the wool over our eyes and make sure they tell us the facts of the withdraw negotiations once Article 50 is triggered. All of us must make sure we don’t get screwed over by our politicians, this will be the only opportunity we will have and if the people of the UK fall asleep don’t come crying and screaming in my direction because the politicians have pulled a fast one you don’t like.

A rough rocky road now lays ahead and if we let our politicians continual to feather their own nests and to hell with us the electorate then the result could be a cliff’s edge and none of us want that. It is our duty to make them work for us and demand changes like no more career politicians. This is our opportunity to clean up Westminster and get an agreement with the EU on the new deals.

This is our final chance and the days of farting around are now over. Once we have left the EU we can no longer blame them for this and that. Hot black tea/coffee all round and all hands to the pumps people, we must make this work and I for one want to see a smooth road ahead after the bumpy road.

I’m off now to get to work on my letters and do my bit and hope you will as well. I’m taking a break now and will be watching and responding to Westminster like a Hawk, my talons are sharp.

[Torplexed]

The aftermath of Brexit is getting bizarre. Now people are seeking a electoral Mulligan.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324

A petition calling for a second referendum on UK's membership of the EU has gained more than one million signatures following the vote to leave.

The petition will be considered by Parliament as it has passed the required 100,000 threshold.

In a separate petition more than 100,000 people have called on London Mayor Sadiq Khan to declare the English capital independent from the UK and apply to join the EU.After reading about how many people didn't think their vote would count or what it was about or who now want a do over I'm wondering if...

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Voting.jpg

[Skybird]

Scotland just made it official they are preparing a new referendum. They also just declared they want to open talks with the EU.

Sorry, folks, the split from England I leave to you, its your business and I will accept any outcome - but once again being a stupid German needing to pay another country's bills I do not want to be. No Scotland into the EU.

Northern Ireland maybe would melt with Ireland, I assume!? But its religion mixed into that constellation, so never take anything for granted in this case.

Strange mood. The British queen is quite old, and the longest reigning monarch ever in European history. Now that even she inevitably approaches the biological end of her term and life, this may fall together with the end of the "United" in "United Kingdom", too? Hollywood could not have scripted it better.

[Admiral Halsey]

As an American who has a basic understanding of this what i'm wondering is what happens if Scotland does leave the UK but the EU doesn't allow it to join due to certain members with their own independence movements?

[Respenus]

Better see her speech in completeness, not just some picked cherries.

First off, I have read her entire speech, more than once and am well aware of what her position towards the EEC was at the end of her premiership. Furthermore, I have no more cherry picked her arguments than you did when you originally posted the speech.

Have they?

The passage I picked was meant to indicate that despite her personal dislike for what was happening under Delors, Thatcher was committed to European countries working together and that effort should be made by all participating countries to solve their common problems.

Can one?

As for the statement what an independent sovereign state means in the modern context, then yes, that is indeed something that can and needs to be debated thoroughly (see above). We have never been as interdependent and interconnected as we are today. Even in the past no state was absolutely independent (when considering all aspects, from economy to society to diplomacy), today this is even less true. So the question arises, how far can one go towards less cooperation/harmonization of everyday life on an international level and still not hurt the economy (which on a side-note is in deep deep trouble).

In your own words: If you cannot come up for your living costs all by yourself - then you are not sovereign at all, but you are dependent.

---
Concerning Juncker, I agree that he is playing with fire and there is even a good Der Spiegel article (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-commission-president-juncker-under-fire-a-1098232.html) on how there are increasing doubts about how he is running the ship (the way he used to run a small country, ie. his way).
---

As for the rest, especially about trying to forcefully put together unmatching puzzle pieces, I am strongly in agreement with you (I even made that clear in my previous long post on the Brexit issue). Thatcher's position was that European countries should solve problems pragmatically and work towards opening their markets internally and externally. That is a position I share with both her and you. While it is true that there are some areas that do require more precise regulation (environmental, chemical and medicine regulation, common consumer protection rules, removing non-tariff barriers such as roaming charges), I do feel that we should be closer to the Cassis de Dijon principles, with punishments for countries/companies that willing poison/injure/harm their European customers.

However, you must also realise that new Member States have a slightly different perception on many of these issues. Being part of the "capitalist" internal market was an aspiration for many generations and Schengen enables us to do what we were forbidden from doing for a very long time. Consequently, the EU as such, was something so attractive that we decided to completely change our economic and political systems in 15 years or less in order to be able to join. The creative destruction that it has brought into our societies was a breath of fresh air and enabled massive progress to be made (not equally in all countries and in some cases major social problems arose, but such is the price for ridding oneself of ossified systems). Even governance improved, as the public's participation is now required when making new legislation. For all the bureaucracy (which can and should be reduced on the local/national/European level), the EU has been a force for good, something that apparently is no longer the case for older Member States. With this historical perspective in mind, is it any wonder that citizens of new Member States have a generally more favourable view of the EU? In Slovenia's case it is not even about money, as we are close to becoming a net payer!

[Oberon]

The aftermath of Brexit is getting bizarre. Now people are seeking a electoral Mulligan.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324

After reading about how many people didn't think their vote would count or what it was about or who now want a do over I'm wondering if...



Well, Farage did say that if it was a close call in favour of Remaining that he'd consider calling for a second referendum...so what's sauce for the goose. :O:

Not a hope in hell of it actually happening though, nope...we're stuck with this....and we can't even blame Obama for it. :/\\!!

[Schroeder]

Not a hope in hell of it actually happening though, nope...we're stuck with this....and we can't even blame Obama for it. :/\\!!
How about you blame it on the EU?:yeah:

[Mittelwaechter]

... I'm wondering if...

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Voting.jpg

It isn't working as we expect it, as we are told. Our motivation is controlled by someone else. Our granted version of peoples rule is no rule of the people at all. Someone rules and grants us to vote - the way he makes us to vote.
Realizing it may be a schock.

It didn't work this time and the result is unsatisfying for all participants - and motivation to whine.


Brittain's better off as a single-party state.

That's what we see in the US. They have ONE conservative party - with a democrat convervative wing and a republican conservative wing. And the people are told they have a choice - in their democracy simulation.

[Skybird]

Thatcher expressed quite clearly that she saw strict limits for what the EEC should want to be, and that it has no exclusive right to claim that it stands for what before was called "Europe". This sets limits to the reach of her other explanations of cooperation and "staying together", and defence of "Europe". Europe is more than just the EEC (or EU). If she would live today, you can bet that she would totally oppose what has become of the former EEC - the EU of today which reaches so tyrannically far beyond free trade agreement. I do not compare the EU for no reason with the USSR. The patterns and schemes of power accumulation, corruption and power projection, compare to a degree that your neck'S hair should rise. Even the language to disguise things is more or less the same. And I do not know how often I heard something on TV, may it be the political news moderator or a politician, and I thought "This sounds like 30 years ago in the Aktuelle Kamera" (which was the main propaganda news in the GDR's state TV) The phrasing, the posing, the moral lecturing all sounds so very familiar. Terrible. Awful. Depressing.

We must even pay for it a head-tax if we do not even possess a receiving device! :03:

The older EEC, lets go with it, or something like that, I'm fine with that. Military cooperation to defend a certain territory against threats from the outside - I'm all for it, but be choosy with the members, however, thinking especially of Turkey, Greece.

But with cooperating police forces I am already getting cautious, for experiences teach that state will always abuse big data for his elitist/monopolist interests, and that are not the interests of the citizens, but all too often in explicit violation of these. Trusting laws and regulations in a digital data world, is naive. And the state cannot be trusted to self-regulate himself anyway. We see it every day. Even less so in the digital world there now is. Since some time I am no longer convinced that the gains of the digitalization of the world outweighs the risks. I think we made a terrible mistake choosing for that road - often for childish and comfortable reasons. But if you say that, soon somebody comes along and accuses you of wanting to live in a cave in the stone-age again, and there you are, gotten overkilled again.

Nothing becomes stronger and healthier if you throw together weak and damaged components. You strengthen a system by adding good and solid stuff. The simpler the construction,t he more robust it is, make it overly complex and complicated,d and face problems and malfunction en masse, and even breakdowns.

But the EU wants a word in all and everything, and wants to take over from the national states. It wants to be ALL. We have had regimes like that before. None of them we would want again if we would not have lost our marbles beforehand.

Trade and business treaties, a restrengthening NATO, freedom to travel - you have my vote. But the rest the EU wants, all that supranational, multicultural, brainwashingly educational, social engineering mumbo-jumbo - keep it, for the sake of mankind: keep it. People living close to borders get along with their neighbours on the other side all by themselves, they do not need paternalism from the EU to show them how to do it. Politically, Poland and Germany are locked in almost a new ice age currently. But the ordinary people crossing the border and visiting the other country usually get along with each other very well. Better than ever before in past 25 years. And if I need to spend some minutes in an exchange shop to trade some D-Marks for some Zlotys, I honestly couldn't care less. Keeping a potential tyrant like the EU away and defend my freedom and privacy is so much more important than some minor detail about a holiday tour.

People are so cheap to be had for handing their freedom over and then bending over a chair. Hauptsache die Party knallt rein. Cheap.

[Skybird]

Another good comment, in German: LINK (http://www.focus.de/finanzen/experten/weik_und_friedrich/crash-propheten-prognostizieren-der-brexit-markiert-den-anfang-vom-ende-der-eu-und-des-euros_id_5669187.html)

[Torplexed]

That's what we see in the US. They have ONE conservative party - with a democrat convervative wing and a republican conservative wing. And the people are told they have a choice - in their democracy simulation.

Hey, in America you get to vote for the clown with the cigarette in the right side of their mouth or the left. Woo-hoo.

Where's the Amerexit from our Bizarnum & Failey Circus System? :O:

http://pyxis.homestead.com/clowns.jpg

[Mittelwaechter]

Trump is independent. Independent on donations, usually ensuring the receiver to act the way the investing rulers order. That's the republicans problem with him. Same goes for Sanders and the democrats.
Hillarious will get the job - the rulers media cares for it. She has endless money too, but is still greedy as tuck.

[Oberon]

How about you blame it on the EU?:yeah:

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ow59c0pwTPruU/giphy.gif

[Penguin]

[..] Even governance improved, as the public's participation is now required when making new legislation. For all the bureaucracy (which can and should be reduced on the local/national/European level), the EU has been a force for good, something that apparently is no longer the case for older Member States. With this historical perspective in mind, is it any wonder that citizens of new Member States have a generally more favourable view of the EU?

That's actually a pretty good explaination for the different perception between the new and old member states.

A widespread view here, is that we now have less public participation than 2,3 decades ago.
German politicians don't do much to change this perception, as many unpopular laws are now established via detour through Brussels and then it's said we are bound to establish those EU laws. Can't do anything about it, they come from "above"...

Personally I'm happy that we still have the German supreme court as well as the ECJ doing their jobs as the last bastion to cut down on some of the more nasty legislations.

[Respenus]

The older EEC, lets go with it, or something like that, I'm fine with that.

Trade and business treaties, a restrengthening NATO, freedom to travel - you have my vote.

There is one thing that you never answered in any of your posts of the EU, how to ensure free trade between so many different nations? If all you do is remove tariffs, you are still left with 28 different national regulatory systems. Just look at the US, they have 17 regional technical certification centres, with no or limited recognition of international standards, making trading extremely difficult (especially for Germany, since it exports such a vast amount of machinery). So imagine the same applied in Europe, allowing each country to act like Russia, preventing the sale of some items due to "safety/sanitary concerns". In such cases, negative rules are insufficient, you need some common standards.

The same goes for the freedom to travel, if you can move and work in another Member State, do you not need some sort of common framework on work health&safety and social rights (like the worktime directive)? Let us take the practical case of truckers. Since the expansion in 2004, there has been a surge of "cheap" Eastern European truck companies, with Germany and France respectively having adopted or thinking about adopting legislation of making sure foreign truck drivers are paid the French/German national minimal salary when operating on their territory. I also know that Swedes have similar concerns. Consequently, if you have the freedom of people/worker movement and the freedom to provide services (in addition to free movement of goods and capital), how do you fight against social dumping? Realistically, you have two options, either you adopt common rules or you prevent countries that do not have equivalent standards from operating in your country. The latter goes against the principal of free trade and is something Mises, Bastiat and other liberals/libertarians would likely oppose (of course, you could say the same thing about the former, which is why the while EU debate is so complicated).

As you surely know from your own professional and personal experience, day-to-day interaction between individuals, communities and countries reveals the need to work more closely in some areas and that this cooperation is then codified and changed as necessary. Consequently, what applied to early human communities that formed into states, applies also to the community of states and to the Europe of today. As for concrete solutions, well, human societies are complex and diverse and Europe all the more so, which means there are no easy solutions.

[Skybird]

There is one thing that you never answered in any of your posts of the EU, how to ensure free trade between so many different nations? If all you do is remove tariffs, you are still left with 28 different national regulatory systems. Just look at the US, they have 17 regional technical certification centres, with no or limited recognition of international standards, making trading extremely difficult (especially for Germany, since it exports such a vast amount of machinery). So imagine the same applied in Europe, allowing each country to act like Russia, preventing the sale of some items due to "safety/sanitary concerns". In such cases, negative rules are insufficient, you need some common standards.

The same goes for the freedom to travel, if you can move and work in another Member State, do you not need some sort of common framework on work health&safety and social rights (like the worktime directive)? Let us take the practical case of truckers. Since the expansion in 2004, there has been a surge of "cheap" Eastern European truck companies, with Germany and France respectively having adopted or thinking about adopting legislation of making sure foreign truck drivers are paid the French/German national minimal salary when operating on their territory. I also know that Swedes have similar concerns. Consequently, if you have the freedom of people/worker movement and the freedom to provide services (in addition to free movement of goods and capital), how do you fight against social dumping? Realistically, you have two options, either you adopt common rules or you prevent countries that do not have equivalent standards from operating in your country. The latter goes against the principal of free trade and is something Mises, Bastiat and other liberals/libertarians would likely oppose (of course, you could say the same thing about the former, which is why the while EU debate is so complicated).

As you surely know from your own professional and personal experience, day-to-day interaction between individuals, communities and countries reveals the need to work more closely in some areas and that this cooperation is then codified and changed as necessary. Consequently, what applied to early human communities that formed into states, applies also to the community of states and to the Europe of today. As for concrete solutions, well, human societies are complex and diverse and Europe all the more so, which means there are no easy solutions.

There must not be 28 states in said trade agreement zone. If a state thinks the thing is not suiting its economy well, it can stay out. The union itself , if members think things become too complicated, they can refuse to accept any more members in (there cannot be a basic right for any outsider to get access), or they decide against new candidates due to the candidate not fulfilling matching criteria (Greece and the Euro is one example where one should have stuck to the rules one has given oneself before). And in principle I think that free trade means anyway that government shall have not too much to say anyway. The history of the EU and the Euro is a history of broken promsies, lies, cheating, broken treaties and broken laws. All of them designed by the EU itself. And you put trust into it, still...???

You do not need a political union. You do not need a currency union. The first has created increasing hostility in past years, so has the latter, plus growing economic distortions. They do right the opposite of what they claim they intend to do.

Why do you guys always want to regulate all and everything? Why must differences be ignored, instead of accepting them? The alienation of people in the EU is growing not just since Britain and not just for the reasons that are typical for Britain, but it is spreading since 10-15 years. While all the time the EU went into right the direction you outlined. There is a link, no doubt.

And @Penguin,

the German supreme court in principle has just ruled couple of days ago that the violations of laws and treaties by the ECB are acceptable, and set up some alibi conditions that everybody know to not make a big effect. Its not the first time that the court has completely and totally failed to do its duty, it shied away from originating the necessary conflict with the ECB and EU commission , and it shied away from telling the German government that its tolerance violates valid international treaties.

Put your trust into this "guardian", if you think you must. But I tell you that is foolish. Its leaving the gate guarded by a gifted wooden horse.

---

Things can detoriate beyond repair. Lets tear down that house, clean the rubble, and then build a new one. A smaller one, with less excessive and exotic desires and plans, build it more realistic, and solid, and with no extra wishes added every day. Or continue just like before, and in 10, 15, 20 years see our economies collapsing like those in the former Warsaw Pact states, and bitter conflicts between us strong Western allies. When it is about mere survival again, I tell you these pathetic talking about "friendship" will be the first victim being thrown out of the window. States and government have no friends. States and governments have interests. Thats an iron law of politics. the good side in it is: it can make states predictable to the other, which may help to avoid provocations and crossing of red lines that necessarily will lead to conflict. The EU mistakes this with just bribing members for their loyalty. Bribery never works for ever. We can clearly see that in the Euro-zone.

[Mittelwaechter]

You want to have sugar in your coffee, I prefer milk.

We can agree to serve the coffee black, with both of us responsible to add what he want, or serve the coffee with sugar and milk and have both what we want plus some unwanted compromise. Or you agree on my standard. I may even agree on yours.

But definitely we don't have to marry to come to a solution.


But - as a couple we have more power to deal with Xi, Huan or Boris, Abdullah, Jim, Fernando or N'Bele.

[Penguin]

the German supreme court in principle has just ruled couple of days ago that the violations of laws and treaties by the ECB are acceptable, and set up some alibi conditions that everybody know to not make a big effect. Its not the first time that the court has completely and totally failed to do its duty, it shied away from originating the necessary conflict with the ECB and EU commission , and it shied away from telling the German government that its tolerance violates valid international treaties.

Put your trust into this "guardian", if you think you must. But I tell you that is foolish. Its leaving the gate guarded by a gifted wooden horse.



Yes, that was indeed a weak decision, especially the argumentation "we have worries, but we are bound by the ECJ." A good example for the Obrigkeitsstaat train of thought. We both know that the "just following orders" argument is not too moralistic valid in Germany...
For example I'm also disappointed by the reluctance of the supreme court to address the tv tax (oh no, I just called the" Gebühr" what it de facto is ;))

This doesn't change the fact that they, as well as the ECJ, did a good job on the data retention laws, both arguing that they are unconstitutional. It also doesn't change the fact that those buggers in parliament (with a great part of their demography being lawyers) didn't stop until it passed last year. We'll see how the constitutional lawsuits will go, I'm slightly optimistic in this case.

This doesn't mean I have blind trust in this institutions, you can compare it that I put more trust into the police than into the Ordnungsamt, without blindly trusting the former. Hey, even a goalkeeper who occasionally lets a ball slide, is better than nobody standing on the last line.

[Oberon]

Actually, I've lost 5.4 kilo in a little over a month so you can now refer to me as Skinny Jimmy :smug:

Looks like you might get some additional assistance Jim:

http://qz.com/716156/the-british-import-a-quarter-of-their-food-from-the-eu-and-thats-a-problem/

[em2nought]

Looks like you might get some additional assistance Jim:

http://qz.com/716156/the-british-import-a-quarter-of-their-food-from-the-eu-and-thats-a-problem/

Let them eat Haggis :D

[Respenus]

@ Skybird,

you still have not answered my question, nor have you replied to a very concrete and current case that I pointed out.

Furthermore, I was not speaking about regulating everything. To use Mittelwaechter's metaphor, while you need not agree on what coffee you drink, you do need to agree for coffee not to include poison. The same for the need for cars to meet certain safety standards, as trade is simplified if you have common standards for such important stuff.

I have to make it clear at this point that apparently contrary to you, free trade for me does not mean that companies or individuals have the right to poison me, cause me injury or deprive me of my rights in any way, shape or form just because they were seeking a higher profit margin.

As for the European project, if everything was so perfect under the EEC, why was there no progress made in making trade easier for almost 20 years (from 1968 when the tariffs were removed to the Single European Act in 1987 which helped establish the Common Market)? Even the Cassis de Dijon case was in 1979, very late in the whole development and which did not contribute sufficiently for the removal of non-tariff trade barriers (which is why Thatcher lobbied for the SEA, even if things turned out differently to what she hoped).

In my previous post and in this one, I was not talking about a political or currency union. Right now, we are purely looking at free trade, and to call the EEC's track record before the SEA abysmal would be far too kind. As for the later, especially monetary developments, I am - once again I might add - in agreement with you.

Also to tackle your argument about a smaller number of cooperating counties: the common market did not work (was never even realised, see above) with 9 very, very close countries (original 6 + Ireland, UK and Denmark). So unless you wish for a really, really restricted agreement with countries that are practically mirror images of your own, you would have nothing to gain, as you would not be liberalising markets in countries you would otherwise seek access to (ie. Latin countries).


Things can detoriate beyond repair. Lets tear down that house, clean the rubble, and then build a new one.

Considering what is happening in the world at large and what developments we can be expecting in the near future, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I would much rather see a stronger (if less complex) structure in place that will help Europe survive the upcoming upheavals, than to build a palace and see it fall to ruin when the seas come crashing upon it.

[Oberon]

And it looks like Tata Europe is going down the tubes, so that's a load of people out of work. But that's ok, because Boris is going to use all the money that we saved with Brexit to support our workers...

Right Boris?

Boris?



Boris?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/13/1410624056705/Boris-Johnson-outside-No--012.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Looks like you might get some additional assistance Jim:

http://qz.com/716156/the-british-import-a-quarter-of-their-food-from-the-eu-and-thats-a-problem/

I doubt it seeing as we import more than we export I believe it gives us an advantage.

[Rockstar]

omg didnt win at the voting booth so fan the flames of hysteria. See what you have done! Sinners, all is lost, the end is nigh fall to your knees pray you survive the collapse of U.K. We are going to starve, the E.U. hates us, the sky has fallen, who will protect us, they are out to get you! I want my mommy :har:

[Oberon]

I doubt it seeing as we import more than we export I believe it gives us an advantage.

I wouldn't bank on that:

http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-brexit-how-important-would-uk-trade-be-eu

[Oberon]

omg didnt win at the voting booth so fan the flames of hysteria. See what you have done! Sinners, all is lost, the end is nigh fall to your knees pray you survive the collapse of U.K. We are going to starve, the E.U. hates us, the sky has fallen, who will protect us, they are out to get you! I want my mommy :har:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClzQUgPWYAA5Zvk.jpg


:har:

[Mittelwaechter]

The Bankster CAPs in London were taken by surprise. They are working on a solution right now. Nice excerpt of the actual media comments.
We may see the second referendum - with properly instructed British voters then.

But the EU CAPs (capitalist asocial predators) may be quite happy, sick with the London CAPs steady extra conditions. They may try to fix the status immediately.
It seems to be the case...

Some ideal situation to make the GB more adaptive to Brussels' wishes.

And the US don't like to see one of their traditional U-Boats leaving the European waters.
They still have Germany under control, and a motivated follower Poland has got Tusk in charge right now, but they surely want to have the Brits back on station.

[Schroeder]

Is thinking of such allowed at all?

Of course not. When it comes out that you even thought of something like that you'll get arrested and shot without trial and rightfully so!:huh:

[Takeda Shingen]

Like a "thought-crime" or "mind-crime" or so?
No, that's a holy grale of PC! Do not touch it!

Nah, you got it wrong. The EU is the bastion of all things evil and scary and responsible for pushing the socialist-homosexual-Muslim-scarybrownperson agenda. We need to protect our heritage from the foreign and domestic hordes.

[vienna]

It seems you lot in the UK didn't do your due diligence before casting those votes:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

This is rather akin to looking up the effect of botulism after having first blindly consumed tainted meat. I guess you can look forward to the indigestion and discomfort... :)


<O>

[Schroeder]

It seems you lot in the UK didn't do your due diligence before casting those votes:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

This is rather akin to looking up the effect of botulism after having first blindly consumed tainted meat. I guess you can look forward to the indigestion and discomfort... :)


<O>
And that is why I'm not a big fan of direct democracy. A hell lot of people are just too uninformed about the subjects they are voting on.:/\\!!

[Oberon]

And that is why I'm not a big fan of direct democracy. A hell lot of people are just too uninformed about the subjects they are voting on.:/\\!!

One of the things that's saddened me the most, more so than the sudden collapse of our economy (which to be fair in time will recover but probably not back to the strength it was before, which is bad news for the average pleb as much as for the millionares [who will just move anyway]), but it's the empowerment that it has given the parts of society that I'm ashamed to share a country with:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clz_0SwWgAALJkd.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl0AYK6WEAEh30O.jpg:large


And, it would be funny were it not so tragic or deeply unsettling, it's all for naught because if Britain wants to trade with Europe in the manner in which it has been trading up until now, which it clearly does, then it will have to accept the free and unrestricted movement of workers to and from Europe! :/\\!! So in regards to migration from Europe, nothing is going to change! :dead:
Australian points system my arse. :nope:

[XabbaRus]

I'm pretty pi***d off to be honest with the result. Especially those who voted out but don't seem to know why and when interviewed are wondering if they made a mistake.

Just listened to a couple of old ladies on the news, smug as punch about the result "we remember the old days, we don't like being bossed about". Well your all right jane aren't you? You will be dead soon.

I'm more worried for my children who have to live with this decision. Those who believed the rubbish about controlling imigration and the £350 million a week bollocks (which the leave campaign are backpedalling from as quick as the can on both issues), well I hope you are happy. So you wanted to stick one to David Cameron, I get that. But this wasn't the place.

I hope they do have a debate in parliament and it is over turned. It's obvious the leave lot haven't a clue what to do. Shroeder I agree, some decisions are too big to be left to the great unwashed, who from what I'm seeing on various interviews haven't the intelligence to really understand the issues.

Looks like Scotland will get another referendum, and in this case there is the mandate to run one. Last thing I wanted was to see the UK break up, but hey looks like it.

[Torplexed]

but it's the empowerment that it has given the parts of society that I'm ashamed to share a country with.


That's sounds sooo similar to the atmosphere here in certain parts of the US since Trump took the political stage.

In the meantime, the voter's remorse continues apace.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/britons-split-after-seismic-eu-vote/ar-AAhBY7D?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPCDHP

More than a million Britons pleaded for a second referendum Saturday as Britain's seismic vote to abandon the EU split the nation after pounding world markets, toppling the prime minister and raising the threat of a breakup of the island nation.In a sign of the fissures exposed by the June 23 vote, 1.2 million people signed a petition on the official government website by late morning calling for a repeat vote -- more than 12 times the 100,000 signatures required for a proposal to be discussed in the lower house of parliament.

Unprecedented traffic forced the site to be taken out of action at one point, a parliamentary spokesman said.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

This hysterical reaction is somewhat amusing and also quite silly. People seem to be acting like this was end of the world and sky was falling into their heads even though nobody really knows how this will affect UK's economy beyond initial turbulence.

What comes to Scotland it is interesting that Scots seem to take it as granted that they will be taken in to EU. As if they didn't have to go through all the hoops and loops as any other country wanting to join EU. Also as stated already several EU countries have their own separatist issues and taking Scotland in would be horrible predecent for them.

I personally don't believe this to be death knell to British economy nor the United Kingdom itself and certainly not to the European Union (unless EU itself does something really stupid in response). Besides I don't believe it until it really happens, no matter how much politicians talk about respecting the result.

[Subnuts]

As an American, I probably shouldn't be commenting on this issue, but...

I find it "amusing" that so many of my countrymen get all fired up and fist-pumping when talking about some of the questionable policy decisions made by Conservative British PMs in the past. The same time a lot of American conservatives were shedding tears for Margaret Thatcher, "Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead" became a Top 10 single in the UK. Nobody here seems to care about the collapse of British heavy industry in the 80s, Winston Churchill's many questionable strategic decisions during WWII, or David Cameron's plummeting approval ratings, and the incredibly divisive nature of the Brexit vote. Apparently, having the world's sixth largest economy in chaos, with their national currency plummeting overnight, is a telltale sign of great things to come.

Again, I'm a dumb Yank who has no business discussing this, but I find the love affair some Republicans have with the Conservative Party beguiling. I get the impression the average British Conservative is no where near as "conservative" as the average American conservative is. Apparently, the "C word" just sends positive waves directly to the Cerebrum of certain folks. :hmmm:

[XabbaRus]

I don't get it. What is it that some folks must always push everything that does not match their PC-Pro-EU-views into a right corner? That gets really irritating. And it is mostly Germans playing that "PC-card".

Come on, so is DEMOCRACY! It has been a FREE VOTE of the people - something that the Germans can only dream of. Are such referendums allowed in Germany? Is thinking of such allowed at all?

I note to myself: The Great Britain with all his ancient monarchy apparently has more democracy than Germany with all its "Gutmenschen" and "politically correct social justice warriors".

Because when you look at those who are cheering the loudest they are right-wing, Le Pen, the Italian right wing leader.

[Oberon]

That's sounds sooo similar to the atmosphere here in certain parts of the US since Trump took the political stage.

In the meantime, the voter's remorse continues apace.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/britons-split-after-seismic-eu-vote/ar-AAhBY7D?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPCDHP

I wonder what caused this massive rise in fear and anger against not just immigrants but any and all non-white people in western countries? I mean, in the fear against Muslims there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of collateral damage on Sikhs, people who are third generation natives will get abuse because they either wear religious apparel or have a different skin tone.
It can't just be the aftermath of 9/11...perhaps it's because the internet and fast communication has made the world a much smaller place, therefore those people feel threatened by the fact that it is so small now? That the pace of change has ramped up so much that people are not able to keep up with it and thus push back against it? :hmmm:
It makes me sad. :nope:

[Catfish]

That's sounds sooo similar to the atmosphere here in certain parts of the US since Trump took the political stage.

Lots of friends are ashamed what happens in Germany, when it come to the AfD party, playing teh same tune as Mr. Farage regarding immigrants. It is not so that those groups only exist outside Germany.. which has a special commitment to granting fugitives a sanctuary.

In the meantime, the voter's remorse continues apace.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/britons-split-after-seismic-eu-vote/ar-AAhBY7D?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPCDHP

I think i read that a hundred thousand signatures are necessary in England, to discuss the theme or a petition in parliament. You wrote about a million, but i just heard it is now three millions, and rising.

The british people are deeply split, 51 percent for and 49 against – which could have been the other way round a day before, or after.
And most obviously did not know at all what they were voting for, or against :/\\!!
Most of the younger people (under age of 50) voted for staying, and blame the "old curmudgeons" of robbing them of their future.

[Oberon]

The british people are deeply split, 51 percent for and 49 against

And yet Farage will probably not be interested in the possibility of another referendum, despite having said only a few days before that

In a 52-48 referendum, this would be unfinished business by a long way.

Meaning that if Remain won by 52-48 then he'd continue campaigning for a second referendum. And this one was even closer than that.
Still, he's a politician, I guess hypocrisy comes as standard.

[vienna]

...
Still, he's a politician, I guess hypocrisy comes as standard.

Truer words never spoken..



<O>

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Meaning that if Remain won by 52-48 then he'd continue campaigning for a second referendum. And this one was even closer than that.
Still, he's a politician, I guess hypocrisy comes as standard.51,89 for Brexit and 48,11 for Bremain, not that much closer but I get what you mean.

I said to my friend in Wednesday (22.6. a day before vote) that Britons will keep voting until "correct" result is achived. So go on vote! :yeah:

[Torplexed]

I wonder what caused this massive rise in fear and anger against not just immigrants but any and all non-white people in western countries? I mean, in the fear against Muslims there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of collateral damage on Sikhs, people who are third generation natives will get abuse because they either wear religious apparel or have a different skin tone.
It can't just be the aftermath of 9/11...perhaps it's because the internet and fast communication has made the world a much smaller place, therefore those people feel threatened by the fact that it is so small now? That the pace of change has ramped up so much that people are not able to keep up with it and thus push back against it? :hmmm:
It makes me sad. :nope:

A lot of people have been left behind by globalization. Or are bewildered and afraid of it. The backlash stems from a growing realization that the biggest winners of globalization have been international corporations, wealthy families, skilled and educated workers and those with easy access to capital. Older, working-class families in many Western nations have instead struggled with stagnant wages, job losses and staggering debt. Income inequality has grown worse in many of the same countries that have embraced globalization. Immigrants, of course being from all over the globe are a glaring symbol of globalization, so the losers in the economic game resent them.

I used to do a double take when I saw women wearing a burka in the street corners here in the far left corner of the US known as Washington State. Not any more they are so common. But, that doesn't mean there aren't still some who are freaked out by this "alien" culture popping up all around them.

The really, really surprising part of the Brexit referendum and the rebellion against globalization here in the US is that it’s mostly held up by a graying group of baby boomers that benefited enormously from open societies. Now they’re rebelling against their own economic history. I guess until someone figures out a way for globalization to benefit those left behind the strife will continue.

[mapuc]

From what I know there is a "call for a second referendum" and this proclamation have about 1-2 million British people signed(on line)

If I lived in Britain(England) and I was one of them who have voted "Leave" I would start a similar but with another sentence-"No Second referendum"

Markus

[MGR1]

What comes to Scotland it is interesting that Scots seem to take it as granted that they will be taken in to EU. As if they didn't have to go through all the hoops and loops as any other country wanting to join EU. Also as stated already several EU countries have their own separatist issues and taking Scotland in would be horrible predecent for them.

Please don't equate what the SNP say as being the only voice Scotland speaks with.

Your making the same mistake as too many people in England do i.e. SNP=Scotland, Scotland=SNP. They don't. Yes, the SNP form the government of Scotland's devolved administration, but their's is not the only Scottish voice, for goodness sake!:/\\!! There are other party's, Scotland is not a one-party state, despite the right-wing media's assertions otherwise.

There's a fundamental truth in Scottish politics that Scotland votes for any party that will protect and fight for Scotland's interests within the structure of the UK.

Prior to the SNP it was Labour, before them it was the Unionists and before them it was the Liberals.

This has only become a visible sore because the SNP are a Nationalist, Scotland only, hang everyone else, pro-independence party.

I highly doubt there would be the same level of vitriol directed at Scotland if it had voted for a party that was pro-union.

However, a majority of those who voted in the 2015 General and the subsequent 2016 Devolved Parliament Elections did vote for the SNP precisely because they are of the opinion that none of the pan-UK parties will fight Scotland's corner vis-a-vis the rest. Which, to be brutally honest, means Conservative England. This is because, as it is viewed by many up here, despite portraying itself as a British Party, the Tories are actually an English (and Welsh, to a lesser extent) party which is fundamentally opposed to Scottish interests.

The irony is, despite resenting Scotland "leaching" resources and money from England, England may have to send even more money north if, as I suspect, the Scottsh economy effectively tanks because of England's decision. As Colin Powell apparently said to George W. Bush back in 2003 "You break it, you own it." Sharing resorces means that the prosperous areas support the less prosperous ones. Do I think Scotland's funding package via Barnett etc needs to be re-evaluated? Yes I do. However, I fear that the only funding package that the English electorate will accept for Scotland will probably do more harm than good for the Scottish economy thus increasing Scotland's dependence on England.

I voted to leave despite knowing that decision could cause severe damage to Scotland's economy because I believe that the EU as it currently exists cannot continue. There is far, far too much power being gathered in an organisation which is not designed to wield such power effectively in the face of the national interest of the (now) 27 states that comprise the EU. There are way too many cultural and economic differences between North and South, East and West. It cannot work and as such I see no utility in being shackled to something that has a reasonable chance of imploding.

Edit: I don't blame the English people for feeling the way they do, but I don't think they understand that what they decide doesn't just effect England, but it affects the other three components of the UK.

I have to ask, for the average English person, is their British identity actually a red and white English one with a bit of blue tacked on?:hmmm:

Mike.

[Oberon]

I have to ask, for the average English person, is their British identity actually a red and white English one with a bit of blue tacked on?:hmmm:

Mike.

I'm not sure if I can speak as an average English person because my father is Scottish and my mother is English, but I consider myself as British, and I was fiercely in support of maintaining the Union during the Scottish Referendum. I still deeply feel that as a nation we are stronger together...but I also felt that way about us and Europe. So...what do I know, eh? :O: :03:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Mike,

With Scotland I meant Scottish government not the nation at large. Should have written that more clearly. I'm aware of difference between Scotland and SNP although I was in mistaken belief that they had majority in Scottish Parliament (63 for goverment, 65 for opposition) and therefore thought that they could force their agenda. That apparently isn't the case.

Your explanation of UK's internal national politics (is that sensible term?) is greatly appreciated as they naturally do not get much press attention here in Finland.

[Skybird]

German media have started to openly speculate about the British parliament ignoring the referendum to prevent Brexit - by locking the majority votes of the referendum out. It seems the legal situation is such that the referendum is legally not binding.

That would be the last missing nail in the coffin of politics' trustworthiness, and would justify any remaining other means then to get rid of such a political caste. Even violence as a means of last defence.

I wonder whether the British people would really allow their political caste to get away with such a monstrous coup - or whether courage is already wavering again.

[Oberon]

Your explanation of UK's internal national politics (is that sensible term?) is greatly appreciated as they naturally do not get much press attention here in Finland.

It rarely gets so much attention in British media either, especially Scottish politics unless it's going to affect London in some manner. :dead:

[Mittelwaechter]

To those who wonder what happens in their society...

The christian religion has two main dogmata to reign the people: affiliation to the religion results in happiness, in this life by being a child of the loving god, as in the afterlife by being blessed in believing during your life in the only true god. The other dogma introduces the devil, the counterforce to god, the tempter, the evil, the one who may lead you on the wrong path, to make you burn in hell for eternity.

As long as the first dogma is working to get the flock in formation, servile and enduring, motivated and conform, it is all a loving and caring community. The priests are calm and indulgent, brothers willing to settle disputes, living the precept of loving thy neighbour...

In times the herd tends to lose the faith in the first dogma, by realizing in the first person, in eyesight the lies behind the crooks' stories, they switch over to the second dogma. They start to warn the people not to trust any other story, any seducing influence antagonizing the only true religion. There is only one god - no alternative. They pretend to defend the people from the devil, the bad guy they invented to have a menace.
They rule with fear, forcing the believers to stay conform, to support the religion, to act against their better knowledge.

A priest pointing with the finger at whoever, whatever group, telling the people this is the devil, makes them react. They are only hindered by laws, by common regulations they accept, to not go after those marked by the priests. If those stigmatized are different, in appearence or behaviour, they are easily identified and can be addressed. Fearing the strange, the unknown, the inconclusive motivation of the foreigners, they defend their territory, their traditions, their lifestyle - just because the priests tell them, there is a danger to it.

Personal contact to the stigmatized, being colleagues at work, friends in school, sharing common interests immunizes the people against the agitation. But the majority has little to no personal experience, strictly believes in their religion and their priests to tell them the truth.

Our media has exactly the same function to our modern society as the christian religion - the church, the priests had, when the people were not able to read, listen to the radio or watch TV.

With the newspaper, the paintings on the church walls and the sermon moved into the daily lecture. With the radio it was possible to listen to the priest every evening. The colourful windows behind the altar changed into animated stories, to be watched on the colourful window we keep in our livings rooms. Everyday we invite a media priest into our homes and let him tell us about right and wrong, good and evil, worth to attack or worth to fear.

In times of distrust and personal experience, the preached religion's first dogma - our glorious capitalist happiness - to be doubtful, the media priests switch over to their second dogma. There is some evil crawling up our backs, taking our jobs, destroying our traditions, endangering our children, seducing our minds, misleading the society. We have to defend ourselves! The media will do it's best to elucidate it's readers...

The people are motivated by this reality shown in our modern media. If there were no 'terrorists' acting against our modern 'christianisation' overseas, the devil would have to be invented and cared for.
Well, that's exactly what we do. We care for the terrorists ourselves, by sending our own uniformed terrorists into their homeland, to expand our dominion. Capitalism is dependent on brutal expansion, on violent growth. Our capitalist religion is aggressive by default. If someone refuses to follow our rules, he shall be attacked.

To distract our people from these facts, they are told our nonconformists may endanger our societies. Immigrants, living with us for decades, are suddenly evil.
Active muslims are violent by default, because they defend their territory, their traditions and their lifestyle - and that is all wrong. They pray to the wrong god. Mammon is the only true god.

[Skybird]

German media have started to openly speculate about the British parliament ignoring the referendum to prevent Brexit - by locking the majority votes of the referendum out. It seems the legal situation is such that the referendum is legally not binding.

That would be the last missing nail in the coffin of politics' trustworthiness, and would justify any remaining other means then to get rid of such a political caste. Even violence as a means of last defence.

I wonder whether the British people would really allow their political caste to get away with such a monstrous coup - or whether courage is already wavering again.
Speculation is going even further. The motive for Cameron to not sent article 50 notification before October might be that he want to buy time. In the parliament, the majority of politicians of all parties are against Brexit. If they would openly ignore the referendum outcome within the first days or weeks, it would be seen as an affront against people's will. But after three months have passed, people might have changed their view once again, being more mild then with the political establishment not brexiting at all.

As somebody has written on Twitter: if the notification has not been send until well before October, chances are it never will be sent anyway.

That would be a coup much worse than the betrayel on the rejected EU constitution, which resulted in the dictate of Lisbon that brought it into effect under a different name, and with a reshuffled content list, but same content, and in violation of one's own self-given rules.

Legally the referendum has been avoided by Cameron to be given a binding status, he carefully avoided to write any legal obligation into the according law. As a German commentator wrote: in princple it is just a glorified, blown-up opinion poll. It has no binding power.

I did not know that, not in full consequences. I fear the worst.

Link - The Moment of Truth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E)

"If you cannot remove the people governing you, you live in a dictatorship, however many fancy labels and buttons they dress it all up in. We cannot remove the people who run the European Union, no matter what they do, so they do what they want. (...) Everything that they have touched, has been a disaster, they couldn't have done a worse job if they purposely set out to screw things up - and we want to give these people even more power? Are we insane?"


Link - I vote against YOU! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjYLWadz5Yc)

[Rockstar]

This is why we see things in the media after the fact, about people allegedly searching "what happens if" just hours before the vote. IMO its planned so politicians can point out to the sheep that they really didnt know whats good for them. So now they'll attempt to prevent the vote from being legally binding. Our saviors :shifty:

[Mittelwaechter]

And how do the people ever find a suitable politician to vote for, in the expectation him/her to be the right one, who will decide in their favour over problems and issues nobody knows at the moment of voting?

The people are not able to vote responsible for actual problems, but are able to vote for a reliable custodian.

Rulership of the people...

True democracy would be a learning process.

[Skybird]

True democracy is a feudal system, I explained it often enough. What today is eratically called "democracy", means ochlocracy in reality, and only its mixing with oligarchy turns it into something that always and necessarily lead towards socialist dictatorship and subsequently the desintegration of what defined and held together our Western and - dare I say it - superior civilisation.

Pat uses a different terminology in the two videos I linked above, maybe not knowing about ancient Greece himself - most people don't. But what he talks of, is freedom, he just labels it "democracy". I replace his use of "democracy" with the word "freedom", and all what he says falls into its fitting place.

Sometimes it helps to feel better to see somebody being angry for absolutely the right reasons. Makes you feel less isolated yourself when walking all alone the plains in the land of the dead.

[Oberon]

It does certainly look like Dave may well have effectively left a poison chalice for whoever goes for the job of Prime Minister. Either they pull the lever on Article 50 and start the ball rolling, thus becoming the leader who broke up the Union and took the UK out of the EU, or they reject the results of the referendum and stay in...becoming the leader who ignored the will of the people.
Sly move Dave, sly move...still, people around here might be pleased to realise that the longer this goes on, the more it's going to annoy the EU leaders who just want Britain out now so that they can get on with running the EU and preparing for what comes next.
Still, though, if Boris does get it...and at the moment there are a lot of whispers of there being a general election rather than just a change of Conservative leadership, which means that Labour...if they can get the right leader...have a shot at it, but if Boris does it get...he's going to really, really wish that he hadn't.
Which probably explains why he looked even more ragged than normal in Fridays speech...he wasn't expecting to win. :haha:

https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/542744954.jpg?w=840&h=485&crop=1

[Subnuts]

Americans Confused By System Of Government In Which Leader Would Resign After Making Terrible Decision :haha: (http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-confused-system-government-which-leader--53156)

[Torplexed]

I love the term being used for all these frantic efforts to apply for redoing the vote.

Regrexit.

:rotfl2:

[Mittelwaechter]

Over here they call it Bregret.

[Sailor Steve]

On the other hand, I just saw this on FaceBook...

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Brexit_zpsahlam0w7.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Brexit_zpsahlam0w7.jpg.html)

[Nippelspanner]

On the other hand, I just saw this on FaceBook...
I think I just woke the neighbours up :har:
This is great, love it!

[Skybird]

Oh look, Labour plays theatre: Corbyn sacked his shadow foreign secretary over night, and now faces a palace revolt with half of Labour's shadow cabinet against him in a bid to force him to resign. :)

Nothing beats Monthy Python!

[Hottentot]

In other news: a global British invasion is underway! Run for your lives before it's breakfast time!

The media is reporting how over 2 million Brits are demanding a new referendum. Specifically, they are referring to this, if I'm not mistaken: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

See how much verification it has. And also check the statistics data from the bottom
(https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215.json)

North Korea: 20 743 signatures (and growing fast.)
Vatican City: 34 770 signatures (and growing fast.)

I didn't even know there were that many people in the Vatican City. :06:

[Oberon]

Meanwhile the self-destruction of the Labour party continues, Benn criticized Corbyn and got sacked and now it looks like half the shadow cabinet plan to resign because of it.

Brexit, the political commentators gift that keeps on giving.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

North Korea: 20 743 signatures (and growing fast.) Vatican City: 34 770 signatures (and growing fast.)Intresting! I didn't know there were that many Britons in North Korean re-education camps.

[Hottentot]

Now there are approximately 40 times more Britons in the Vatican than there are people in there in the first place.

It's an invasion! Run to the hills! :timeout:

[MGR1]

Mike,

With Scotland I meant Scottish government not the nation at large. Should have written that more clearly. I'm aware of difference between Scotland and SNP although I was in mistaken belief that they had majority in Scottish Parliament (63 for goverment, 65 for opposition) and therefore thought that they could force their agenda. That apparently isn't the case.

Your explanation of UK's internal national politics (is that sensible term?) is greatly appreciated as they naturally do not get much press attention here in Finland.

No probs, mannie!:up: It can be quite frustrating to have to continually point out to people that Scotland isn't monolithic in it's opinions any more than any other country or region is.

On the other hand, I just saw this on FaceBook...

Now that IS funny!:haha:

The only way to stop things going completely down the pan for the EU is major reform, but, I can't see that happening. Too many vested interests will prevent that.

As for the UK, well, it's either game over too, or there's major reform in how the UK is structured and where political power lies. That would require Westminster to effectively be the turkey voting for Christmas and I can't see that happening either.

However, stranger things are possible.

In reference to my earlier post, that was me venting somewhat, but I do think the Brexit result has a lot to do with English national identity. Here's a lttle something from Lord Ashcroft's analysis over on Conservative Home:

http://www.conservativehome.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/8-English-or-British-1024x912.jpg



In England, leave voters (39 per cent) were more than twice as likely as remain voters (18 per cent) to describe themselves either as “English not British” or “more English than British”. Remain voters were twice as likely as leavers to see themselves as more British than English.



Two thirds of those who considered themselves more English than British voted to leave; two thirds of those who considered themselves more British than English voted to remain.



In Scotland, remainers (55 per cent) were more likely than leavers (46 per cent) to see themselves as “Scottish not British” or “more Scottish than British”.



Pity there wasn't similar data for Northern Ireland and Wales.:hmmm:

Mike.

[Mittelwaechter]

There won't be any true adaption. Free markets in the unions of the free are the child of business. It's not the people to get what they want, but the business.

See, I'm selling shoes - cheap shoes for Germany. I am the largest cheap shoe seller in Europe, with a smaller competitor in France - and there are some high quality shoe manufactures in Hungary and Portugal.
I have saturated the cheap shoe market in my country. Absolutly everybody here has more cheap shoes than necessary, but I have to create growth - for my capitalist business concept is dependent on growth.
I even communicate negative growth, just to communicate growth.

I want a unified Europe with a free market, were I can expose all Europeans to my cheap shoe offers. No toll shall protect the French competitor, protect the French jobs. I am the big fish and I want to grow.
The eastern societies may have not the money to invest even in my cheapest shoes, but if I get a central European government in my favour to allocate taxmoney, collected especially here in the saturated Germany, to those poor societies, they shall have the necessary means to buy my shoes. I would be able to get more money out of the German shoe consumers, by making them pay shoes for other folks.
I am after granted sales and granted profit. I need growth! The free market shall be a controlled market, just hidden behind the labels 'free', 'deregulated' and 'in favour of all'.

See, I build jet fighters. My market is not public, I need governments to buy my jet fighters. I care for a community called NATO, were we are able to define the NATO worthy equippment - my jet fighters. There are cheaper and better jet fighters available on the world market, but I managed to grant my sales and profit. I want the NATO market to grow. I need a growing market because my capitalist business model is endless growth. Accepting Georgia, Ukraine or Moldavia as new NATO members grants me to sell my NATO standard jet fighters. Of course not directly to our new members, because they don't have the money for it. But our collective orders them to get rid of their equippment - sell it to Africa, where my friends care for demand - and buy some used material - still NATO standard by now - from my country. And I am able to sell my newest jet fighters to my country again. Ukraine will get some credit from the IMF later, to replace the old equippment bought today. And I will sell them my new jet fighters. too.
The best thing is, my product doesn't have to be high quality, doesn't have to be competitive in this regulated, 'free' market. I can force the costumers - the governments - to buy from me.

Especially with some collected information about their sins, I am able to motivate any government, to buy my expensive but cheaply engineered stuff.
I'm advertising my superior Ducky Drake 35 right now...

[Oberon]

Meanwhile Tom Watson finally gets a signal on his phone while returning to London from Glastonbury:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl3ZvoRWEAA4qCh.jpg


CURRENT UK STATUS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1rRszEYKdM

[Schroeder]

On the other hand, I just saw this on FaceBook...

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Brexit_zpsahlam0w7.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Brexit_zpsahlam0w7.jpg.html)
I just hope they won't form a new alliance...imagine the first country wishing to join would probably be us and that would mean a Germentry campaign.:dead:

[Oberon]

Oh heavens. Let's not become TOO PC because then we would really mess *everything* up :haha:

Just for the record: Marine Le Pen is French, not Italian.



:doh: :o :D :haha: :woot: :har:

He meant Le Pen AND the Italian right wing leader.

Meanwhile, more hilarity from the Mail:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl3m_xRWYAA2SLN.jpg

And IDS on the Marr Show:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl3iw4WXEAA1U25.jpg:large

[cuthbo2001]

It was sad to see the hope of my son and daughter replaced by uncertainty of what the future holds. Instead of a bright future in the Royal marines my son is now contemplating potentially joining the police force as a second choice. Why ? Because our asinine politicians contented themselves with trying to scare the hell out of people instead of making the positive case for the EU. Sure democracy within the EU is an issue, however in the UK and particularly in Scotland when has that not been the case , even at a domestic level. Now we face the real possibility of the breakup of the UK, and whether we have to wait 2 or 5 years , Scotland I suspect ,with its natural socialist background will have more in common with the thoughts and aspirations of the EU than the majority of England.

[Mr Quatro]

What have you done to the world UK?

Now is the time for the new world order to barge into everyone's mind after a complete
loss of confidence in the EU to bring prosperity to the masses. :yep:

The New World Order - A Very REAL Story! - UFO International Project
www.ufointernationalproject.com

http://www.ufointernationalproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/A51.jpg


Their ultimate goal is for a one world government which they will control, also a one world currency, and they want control and ownership of all land, ...

[Catfish]

I now know what Jim meant.

Positive thought for the day:
- If you weigh yourself in #pounds. Today you lost a lot of weight. #brexit

[Oberon]

Meanwhile, to quote someone from another board, the Labour Party has gone from 'The Thick of it' to 'Game of Thrones'.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl4ZSe4WgAAPQow.jpg:large

[Mittelwaechter]

What have you done to the world UK?

Teach some people to be careful?

http://abload.de/img/gtrendsexky9.jpg

And be careful, Mr Quatro - the CAPs don't like it to be pointed at.
We should make the folks aware of them, when they are motivated to search the true reason for their pitiful situation.

And don't you now Bill Gates is the richest of all? Read the media! ;)

Why do you link to the UFOs?

[Jimbuna]

Meanwhile the self-destruction of the Labour party continues, Benn criticized Corbyn and got sacked and now it looks like half the shadow cabinet plan to resign because of it.

Brexit, the political commentators gift that keeps on giving.

Oh look, Labour plays theatre: Corbyn sacked his shadow foreign secretary over night, and now faces a palace revolt with half of Labour's shadow cabinet against him in a bid to force him to resign. :)

Nothing beats Monthy Python!

What a right royal mess.

Whoever wrote the script should be made best comedy writer of all time.

[MGR1]

An interesting viewpoint:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-desperately-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of Brexit" as far as both Labour and Tories are concerned. Looks like the only political parties not plagued by infighting at the moment are the nation specific ones. Oh, and the Lib Dems, but they're too small to have split now!:O:

Mike.

[Skybird]

Statistics show that the claim that the old voted the young ones out, are not true. Truth is that the participation amongst young ones was very low, and increased with growing age. And that the young ones did not use their voting power.


Doch damit macht es sich die junge Generation zu einfach. Das zeigt ein Blick auf die Wahlbeteiligung. Die lag insgesamt bei 72 Prozent. In der Gruppe der 18- bis 24-Jährigen gingen aber nur 36 Prozent zur Wahl, in der Gruppe der 25- bis 34-Jährigen 58 Prozent. Dann steigt die Beteiligung sprunghaft an: Die Wähler zwischen 35 und 44 Jahren liegen mit 72 Prozent genau im Durchschnitt. Mit jeder Alterstufe steigt die Wahlbeteiligung: Von den Über-65-Jährigen gingen sogar 83 Prozent zur Wahl. In the group of 18-24 year olds, only 36% went to vote. The group 25-34% went voting to 56%. The average age group 35-44 years had 72% participation, those older than 65% years voted to 83%.

But the young ones now want special deals, rules bend in their favour and second and third referendums?

Sorry you careless stupid kids, when two thirds of you did not care to cast a vote in such a special and important case deciding so much at stake, you have now no call to make.

I never go voting at political elections for I see no real choice there, nor am I a fan of general elections vor every unqualfiied clueless Peter and Paul, and I participated only once in a town referendum, and that only to do my father a favour (it was about whether a concert hall should be build in town or not, he was musician himself) - but if I were a Brit, even me would have gone to that EU referendum - and if even me goes voting, then that really means something. ;) Becasue this time it was a chocie that was for real - and makes a dramatic difference. You can carelessly throw it away - but then please shut up. You made it clear that you did not care when it counted.

Blödheit schützt vor Strafe nicht...

[MGR1]

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/MGRiddell/69079982_zps7zaembsx.jpg

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/MGRiddell/one-does-not-simply_576ff99f7e587629_zpswocr0fpb.jpg

Mike.:03:

[MGR1]

That one's simple - the majority of those who voted for Brexit want greater control of immigration from the EU along with the UK not paying any money to Brussels.

The EEA option is a non-starter for these people as nothing actually changes, no limit on EU immigration and UK still hands money over to Brussels.

Mike.

[Mittelwaechter]

That one's simple - the majority of those who voted for Brexit want greater control of immigration from the EU along with the UK not paying any money to Brussels.

The EEA option is a non-starter for these people as nothing actually changes, no limit on EU immigration and UK still hands money over to Brussels.

Mike.


... and the UK would have to apply the single market’s rules and regulations without having a vote on them.

[Oberon]

Quite, and since it seems that immigration was at least 50% of the reason of being behind the Leave campaign, it does rather beg the question...how are they going to spin that?

Meanwhile the knock-on effects continue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl5Do5lXIAA-Z_g.jpg:large

https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash


Sad times. :nope:

[Catfish]

...So when official documents say so, why is it that mass-media once again spreads false information as if it were the end of the entire world? Why the whining about "oooh, the future of my children is ruined" and all such? And the above is only ONE option.
Help me understand that, please!

First it is of course not the end of the world, but it may be the end of the UK economy for decades to come (bad enough), and may well lead to the end of the EU, which imho would be - despite all problems like bureaucray, corruption and so forth - a tragedy.

Spreading false information? You can find all kind of information on the web, pro and contra. In fact nobody can know what happens, this is a first.
And, b.t.w., for the media bad news is good news.

What especially younger people feel (dumb enough of the UK youngsters not to go voting) is pretty good expressed here:

1. It was the elders and working classes who voted for the UK to leave because they were economically disregarded, and let themselves lure into the trap by populist leaders like Nigel Farage promising them more money and playing their fear with his anti-immigrants slogans.

But it is the same working classes who will suffer the most in short terms from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. No one can believe that, with the EU being out of influence, the workers rights and conditions will take a turn for the better side. If you think so look at the UK in the 1950ies to 1970ies, and the Thatcher "era" [sic!].

Also prices will rise, and there will be no levelling influence possible from the EU. To rebuild a british eceonomy that is not based on banks and making money out of nothing (which they did voluntarily, and willing, instead of pushing production) will take very very long, and it is by no way secure whether it will work out. I believe the british are clever and intelligent enough for all kinds of scientific research and inventions, but to compete against the whole world including China, Japan, South Korea and last not least the part of Europe they left, will need a better education alone in the UK, will be arduous and take time.

2. The younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. As they say "We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences (also job-wise) they will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by their parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of their predecessors".

But the main problem is education and sciences. While Uk studenst were free up to now to work, study and live wherevere they wanted in the EU, this will now be anything but simple. And it will only be possible for rich families, which was not the case as long as the EU guaranteed their ability to study.
They call the EU "socialist", but this is not true. It is just that they cared for human rights in a way never achieved before.

Demagogues like Farage said "the British people are sick of experts", and maybe he was right. But when was the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has been good for a country, and lead to anything other than bigotry?
Why didn't they do what they think is better, in the EU, influencing it?
It was possible, but no one over there was interested. They always bashed the "Eurocrats" but did nothing to better the situation, which they could have. The EU is as same as guilty, but the EU cannot be better than the nations that represent the EU. Juncker is the head, but he has no power at all.
It seems good old nationalism and demagogues like Farage influence the masses much easier, than common sense, and thinking for yourself.

Sad.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I have mixed feelings of youth complaints. I understand their feelings and sort of feel sorry for them but at the same time it is hard to find much compassion for them. In referendum only way to voice your opinion is to vote and apprently majority of youngsters failed to do so. Whining about older people's voting is pointless.

That petition for revote with favourable conditions is extremely undemocratic action. I agree - outcome is bad - but it is still outcome achived by democratic means.

[Skybird]

I say aagin, 2 out of 3 of the young did not even care to vote.

And while I said earlier that i am for free travel, by that I mean just that states may allow you to travel through the country - migration and residency and labour I do not mean by that - the people of a place must have any right todecide over every single case whether they accept somebody or not, else it is no longer their place and we end with that Swedish politician who said that the Swedes now have no more right over Sweden, but that Sweden shall belong to those who newly arrive.

There is no such thing like a human right for migration. Or for no controls at borders. Such a human right would declare the locals to be the property of the migrants. So i necessarily must have a problem with that.

[Oberon]

I think Nicola Sturgeons tweet summed the current situation up well...in fact, she seems to be the only political leader actually organised at the moment:

PM & Chancellor who proposed #EUref are in hiding, those who campaigned for leave have no plan and the opposition is imploding. Disgraceful.

The Nikkei opens in four hours, should be an indication of how well the markets are going to do on Monday. Perhaps another race to the bottom will bring Osbourne out of hiding. :hmmm:

[Catfish]

I say aagin, 2 out of 3 of the young did not even care to vote.

And, what does this mean? Dumb, of course. Now they realize what they missed. But not dumber than what the UK and EU did in the last decades, instead of promoting and improving the system they created.
No interest, no ambition, nothing.

I am not interested of what you say about free travel at all. in Europe like in most regions of the earth where a lot of "nations" (this backwards old farts' justification why to fight against other human beings of another "nation") have to live in close proximity, passports do not make sense. Workers are going anywhere where they are needed, scholars where they think they can learn something, Europe has not had passports until WW1, when its need became obvious - IN WAR TIMES.

In the Uk whoever came into the country, mostly from colonies (lmao) and accepted the rules was automatically a citizen of the commonwealth and allowed to stay and live there. Why suddenly not ? Because of a bunch of idiot terrorists ?
There is no such thing like a human right for migration.Oh yes there is and it has always been, worldwide, until WW1. Even in the US.
Such a human right would declare the locals to be the property of the migrants. So i necessarily must have a problem with that.Why am i the "property" of a fugitive whom i grant access, as long as he's being in threat of being shot elsewhere? What kind of word choice is that? "Property"??
Also if Germans decide to die out because they are too dumb to deliver babies, and whover then lives here becomes the majority, why TF not?

[MGR1]

I think Nicola Sturgeons tweet summed the current situation up well...in fact, she seems to be the only political leader actually organised at the moment: PM & Chancellor who proposed #EUref are in hiding, those who campaigned for leave have no plan and the opposition is imploding. Disgraceful.

Nippy has a point. Like her or not, she has a definite point.

Mike.

[MGR1]

I just had a thought:

Labour imploding - led by a man (currently) who can't control his MP's.

Tories infighting - led by a man (currently) who can't control his MP's.

Brexit Campaign - led by men and has no post Brexit plan and can't control the situation they've helped create.

SNP - led by a woman and has a plan (for Scotland) and can control her MP's and MSP's.

What is it they say about women being more organised than men?

Mike.

[Skybird]

These feudal narcissists in Brussels still have not heard the shots: Juncker today said the consequence of Brexit must be to speed up the enforcing of "European integration", and that it now must be enforced as well that all EU countries not already sharing the Euro desaster have to adopt this fake currency, and immediately.

What egoist, worthless, super-hyper-mega-arrogant, self-convinced dirtbags they are.

And the people? The people let it happen. I will never understand that - and that speaks in my favour.

[eddie]

Quite, and since it seems that immigration was at least 50% of the reason of being behind the Leave campaign, it does rather beg the question...how are they going to spin that?

Meanwhile the knock-on effects continue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl5Do5lXIAA-Z_g.jpg:large

https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash


Sad times. :nope:

Looks like its getting worse Oberon, going after people from Poland who have been in the UK for quite some time too! Getting right in their faces too, going to be some real trouble soon I bet!


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-sharp-spike-in-racist-incidents-reported-after-the-brexit-vote/ar-AAhE8xs?li=BBnb7Kz

[Respenus]

These feudal narcissists in Brussels still have not heard the shots: Juncker today said the consequence of Brexit must be to speed up the enforcing of "European integration", and that it now must be enforced as well that all EU countries not already sharing the Euro desaster have to adopt this fake currency, and immediately.

From what I have reading, Juncker appears to be increasingly sidelined, with calmer voiced winning over. I can hardly see his proposal winning any favours and it would appear that the more level-headed Tusk may actually contribute massively to the resolution of the current conundrum.

Of course, in the end it all depends how much Merkel will push for her vision; parts of the French government and the German SPD are proposing a new convention, during which a new vision for the EU would be established with full participation of the public.

The one silver lining coming from this entire debacle, is that a debate has been reopened on what European integration should actually be like, so maybe a more rational approach to the whole issue may well be established (but I am not holding my breath).

[MGR1]

For anyone who thinks the UK parliament can't override the result of the refendum, think again. It will cause a major crisis, but it can be done, and legally.

The vote is "advisery" under the UK system as the population are not the sovereign power in the UK. Sovereignty lies with Parliament:

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.

Parliamentary sovereignty and the UK constitution

People often refer to the UK having an 'unwritten constitution' but that's not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament - known as statute law.
Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as 'partly written and wholly uncodified'. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)

Developments affecting Parliamentary sovereignty

Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.
They include:


The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
The Human Rights Act 1998.
The UK's entry to the European Union in 1973.
The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.

These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.More specifically (from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty_in_the_United_Kingdom)):

It was the view of A. V. Dicey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._V._Dicey), writing in the early twentieth century, that parliament had "the right to make or unmake any law whatever; and, further, that no person or body is recognised by the law of England as having a right to override or set aside the legislation of Parliament". He refers to "England" but his view held for the other nations of the United Kingdom, with slightly different details.

.......

A group of individuals cannot hold sovereignty, only the institution of parliament.Mike.

[Torplexed]

A Polish centre in Hammersmith was vandalized today. Seems like Brexit has emboldened the racists, who are out in force. Man, I hate to see this sort of asshattery. I'm sure plenty there do as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36634621

http://i.imgur.com/MD67xzI.png?1

[Oberon]

Aye, that's the definite downside (well, one of them) of this result, it's really emboldened the racists and the xenophobes. I feel very sorry for anyone in this country who 'looks or sounds a bit foreign', they're going to feel very vulnerable in the coming days.

Someone on another forum I frequent made an interesting and amusing point.
Both the Tories and Labour look as though they're going to be going through leadership contests shortly. There's a chance that Hilary Benn will throw his hat in the ring for Labour and get it, and there's also a chance that the General Election might be called as early as November, or thereabouts...

So...come November, both the US and the UK might have a Hilary battling a crazy haired racist buffoon. :doh:

[Oberon]

It will cause a major crisis

That's a slight understatement. There will be riots if they try that, or at the very least a lot of protests.

One potential wiggle way out is through Nippy. If I were a Remain supporting political leader who found my way into Number 10 I would consider making a quiet deal with Sturgeon that she blocks Article 50 in return for a drip feed of greater devolution and perhaps even a date for a second referendum for independence. That way, the English parliament can blame Sturgeon for the UK staying in the EU and Sturgeon can say that she fought for Scotlands corner, and she also gets bonus goodies down the road.
The big downside is that there will be a massive uprise in anti-Scottish sentiment in the English public...although that would play nicely into Sturgeons hands in encouraging and winning a second independence referendum. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

A Polish centre in Hammersmith was vandalized today. Seems like Brexit has emboldened the racists, who are out in force. Man, I hate to see this sort of asshattery. I'm sure plenty there do as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36634621

http://i.imgur.com/MD67xzI.png?1
Sick.

[Oberon]

Sick.

Galatians 6:7

[Admiral Halsey]

Out of Curiosity what would happen to Scotland if the do leave the UK but the EU blocks them from entering due to certain members own independence group problems? Buyers remorse even worse then the UK right now?

[Reece]

Take heart and remember::yep:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03591/sun-claim-queen-is_3591477b.jpg

[Betonov]

A Polish centre in Hammersmith was vandalized today. Seems like Brexit has emboldened the racists, who are out in force. Man, I hate to see this sort of asshattery. I'm sure plenty there do as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36634621

http://i.imgur.com/MD67xzI.png?1

Anyone dumb enough to be a knuckle dragging mouthbreather nationalist is not smart enough to understand what brexit is about and we can really blame the media (again) for giving them airtime.
This kind a crap happens all the time, but it's intereating to report it if there isn't a semi related issue going on.

It's same in Slovenia. There's a "južnake v smetnake" (southeners/bosnians in trash cans) graffiti in Jesenice for 30 years straight and no one gave it much thought until the migrant crisis started, after which it was medias symbol of slovene anti islamic movement. :shifty:

[Catfish]

^ True. The media should have the decency to support their people, rather than to polarize them in this situation.
But for the media, bad news is good news. At least for certain loo papers like "Bild" in Germany and the "Sun" in England.

@Reece: This is very old. And no wonder that the Royals prefer their country to be out of the EU :haha:
And, of course, the Sun lied, again
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/22/the-sun-queen-brexit-front-page
But seriously, even if it was the Queen's opinion, what she says does not matter. She has no say about politics. Certainly the EU has left its tracks and needs some correction to say at least. Would be better if the Queen said something against xenophobia. It is perfectly possible that she did, but that it did not make it into the "Sun"'s article :03:

Also, Cameron making shortsighted "deals" that prefer the UK before other nations, but not trying to make necessary corrections as a whole for the whole EU..? The EU is not a self-service shop.


Secession, financial ruin and racism are bad for a nation. The UK chose to leave the European Union because of anti-immigration sentiments and politicians who specialize in selling fear. Xenophobia has been there all the time, it is just in times as such that those hooligans show themselves openly. Farage will be happy, his supporters are coming out of their holes. The UK has not deserved this :nope:

[Rockstar]

this is great stuff a one stop shop for the latest hysteria, accusations of xenophobia, racisim, questionable photographic evidence of nationalism, threats of starvation, end of the world, divisive politics, doom preachers quoting the bible, it's all here. :har:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tumblr_ljh0puClWT1qfkt17.gif

[Catfish]

»Meanwhile India is just blown away, that you can get Britain to leave by voting«

Had they known that earlier..

[Jimbuna]

That's a slight understatement. There will be riots if they try that, or at the very least a lot of protests.

One potential wiggle way out is through Nippy. If I were a Remain supporting political leader who found my way into Number 10 I would consider making a quiet deal with Sturgeon that she blocks Article 50 in return for a drip feed of greater devolution and perhaps even a date for a second referendum for independence. That way, the English parliament can blame Sturgeon for the UK staying in the EU and Sturgeon can say that she fought for Scotlands corner, and she also gets bonus goodies down the road.
The big downside is that there will be a massive uprise in anti-Scottish sentiment in the English public...although that would play nicely into Sturgeons hands in encouraging and winning a second independence referendum. :hmmm:

A long shot but a possibility.

[MGR1]

Hmmmm. That depends on whether the SNP actually try to block Article 50 at Holyrood.

What seems to escape people's notice is that Westminster can overrule Holyrood any time it wishes, it just chooses not to:

Quote Brian Taylor (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36635012) again:

Does it mean Holyrood has a veto over Brexit?

This scenario is based upon an interpretation of the Scotland Act 1998 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/contents), the statute which created (or, rather, recreated) the Scottish Parliament.
Clause 29 of that Act, anent legislative competence, empowers the Scottish Parliament to legislate in the devolved areas for which it is responsible - while obliging it to take care that nothing it does is "incompatible" with EU law.
In short, EU law has force in Scotland and, in devolved areas, is enacted and implemented by the Scottish Parliament, not Westminster.

That has led constitutional experts, such as Sir David Edward to suggest that the consent of the Scottish Parliament would be required were it to be suggested that the UK's relationship with the EU, in legislation and other areas, might be altered.
Sir David made this point in evidence to a House of Lords inquiry (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/138.pdf). Their Lordships report cited Sir David as envisaging that there might be "certain political advantages" to be drawn from withholding consent.
Which is true. It is further true that it is an established Convention (formerly known as the Sewel Convention) that the Westminster Parliament should not interfere in devolved areas without the consent of Holyrood. Such agreement is customarily given via a legislative consent motion, LCM, at Holyrood.
So does that mean Holyrood has a veto over Brexit? Up to a point, Lord Copper. Firstly, one should understand that relations with the EU have a long and complex history, in the context of the demands for self-government.

What does the law say?

A seat at the EU top table has long been a prize sought after by supporters of independence. Even those who backed devolution, rather than full independence, foresaw that Scotland would develop her own relations with the EU, in consort with the UK.
Thus the White Paper of 1997 which led to the 1998 Act fudged the issue. It said that dealing with the EU was a matter for Westminster, alongside foreign affairs.
But it suggested that the UK government would seek to consult the devolved administration in Scotland and take account of its views.
Let us turn now to statute. The 1998 Act proceeds by specifying the issues which are reserved to Westminster - then grandly declaring that everything else is devolved.


Schedule V to that Act lists the reserved areas. At sub-clause 7, it is noted that "international relations, including relations with territories outside the United Kingdom, the European Union and other international organisations" etc….."are reserved matters." They are, in short, Westminster's purlieu.



However, it then goes on to note that this reservation does not include obligations under EU law.



Hence, Nicola Sturgeon's argument that Holyrood is entitled to a say: based upon the legal formula which obliges Scotland to adhere to EU law. Westminster might usefully point to the broader Schedule V, reserving relations with the EU to the UK.



Then there is a further point. Clause 28 of the 1998 Act notes at sub-clause 7, in dry terms, with regard to legislative competence that "this section does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland."

In that single little line is the subordinate nature of devolution. Generally, Westminster will let the Scottish Parliament get on with devolved legislation. Carry on governing. But it is also made clear that Westminster's ultimate sovereignty over the UK, the entire UK, is unaffected.
So it could be argued - it is already being argued - that, if it came to a constitutional battle, Westminster would have the final say. Holyrood might withhold consent for the legislative moves to implement Brexit. Westminster might note such a verdict, no doubt with polite gratitude - then proceed to implement Brexit, exercising its over-riding sovereignty.


So, if Holyrood tries anything cute, Westminster will just override it. Also remember, as Parliament is the Sovereign Power in the UK, it can dismantle the devolution settlement and close down Holyrood if it felt it was necessary.

It might be political dynamite, but direct rule from Westminster is still a possibility, as it is for Wales and Northern Ireland.

Mike.

[Skybird]

I know I know, its the Daily Mail, and still - others report similarly:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3661760/EU-diplomats-say-don-t-believe-Britain-formally-trigger-Brexit.html

Comment in a German magazine: its like a death penalty without executioner.

[Aktungbby]

»Meanwhile India is just blown away, that you can get Britain to leave by voting«

Had they known that earlier..It would have saved ammunition::damn:https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/cb/22/e3/cb22e359538175bd67f4c02715c619d5.jpg

[Oberon]

this is great stuff a one stop shop for the latest hysteria, accusations of xenophobia, racisim, questionable photographic evidence of nationalism, threats of starvation, end of the world, divisive politics, doom preachers quoting the bible, it's all here. :har:

We're just getting it in before you lot do the same in November. :yeah:


I know I know, its the Daily Mail, and still - others report similarly:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3661760/EU-diplomats-say-don-t-believe-Britain-formally-trigger-Brexit.html

It's entirely possible, I don't blame the diplomats for believing that, it certainly seems as though none of the Brexit campaigners had an actual plan for what would happen or be said or done if they actually won.
Then, of course, you add on to that the fact that most of the Brexit campaign was based upon Britain likely taking a Norway style approach to the EU, becoming a member of the single market...but one of the rules of being a member of that market is that you have to accept free movement of workers from EU nations, which is in direct contradiction to UKIPs wish to halt the free movement of workers from the EU to the UK.

So, basically, aside from losing all the EU funding that we receive, and throwing away our position in the EU decision making process, not a great deal is going to change...certainly not this Australian points based system that so many have talked about. :/\\!!

[Betonov]

We're just getting it in before you lot do the same in November. :yeah:


November ??
They've been at it for 2 years.

[Oberon]

November ??
They've been at it for 2 years.

....

https://media.giphy.com/media/qMp03DEsNwqDm/giphy.gif

[Rockstar]

Somebody brought up earlier how Americans didnt understand the idea of a politician resigning after making a mistake. As an American I expect wrongs to made be right and see resignation simply as a cowards way out.

On the otherhand as an American I am completly baffeled by how a nationwide vote can be held and then ignored by the government.

[Oberon]

Some more buyers remorse from Kelvin Mackenzie from 'The Sun':

http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Cl86SiAWEAAiaUL.jpg

[Aktungbby]

Somebody brought up earlier how Americans didnt understand the idea of a politician resigning after making a mistake. As an American I expect wrongs to made be right and see resignation simply as a cowards way out.

On the otherhand as an American I am completly baffeled by how a nationwide vote can be held and then ignored by the government.HUH! Jeff Davis resigned? Ol' Abe ignored us!?? One ran away and the other...got shot!:D http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/images/070.jpg

[Catfish]

Is this fake, or is this ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZO9JGSScMQ#t=147

Just when you think you've seen all :rotfl2:

[Jimbuna]

Hmmmm. That depends on whether the SNP actually try to block Article 50 at Holyrood.

So, if Holyrood tries anything cute, Westminster will just override it. Also remember, as Parliament is the Sovereign Power in the UK, it can dismantle the devolution settlement and close down Holyrood if it felt it was necessary.

It might be political dynamite, but direct rule from Westminster is still a possibility, as it is for Wales and Northern Ireland.

Mike.

What I wonder is why is it Sturgeon wants to become independent yet wants to remain in a block with 27 other countries?

[Oberon]

What I wonder is why is it Sturgeon wants to become independent yet wants to remain in a block with 27 other countries?

Probably the same reason that Yorkshire and Cornwall are bricking it.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120 (https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/george-osbornes-northern-powerhouse-cities-seek-reassurance-brexit-vote/)

[Jimbuna]

Probably the same reason that Yorkshire and Cornwall are bricking it.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120 (https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/george-osbornes-northern-powerhouse-cities-seek-reassurance-brexit-vote/)

Everyone for themselves....nothing ever changes much.

[Catfish]

What I wonder is why is it Sturgeon wants to become independent yet wants to remain in a block with 27 other countries?

They did not see a reason to leave the UK, when the latter remained in the EU. The EU has created jobs, and initiated some infrastructure projects. Then, oil. Also, whisky exports ;) Now the situation has drastically changed.

[Jimbuna]

http://i.imgur.com/G2wMWxi.jpg

[XabbaRus]

Oh heavens. Let's not become TOO PC because then we would really mess *everything* up :haha:

Just for the record: Marine Le Pen is French, not Italian.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Brexit_zpsahlam0w7.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Brexit_zpsahlam0w7.jpg.html)

:doh: :o :D :haha: :woot: :har:

Belated reply but I know Le Pen is French. Should have used my punctuation better. This isnt about being PC but pointing out that on mainland europe the euroskeptic are in the main to the right and close to the far right. But sure you want to think disliking the likes of Le Pen is just being PC then fill your boots.

[Oberon]

http://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/corbyn-jpg.278802/

[Oberon]

But sure you want to think disliking the likes of Le Pen is just being PC then fill your boots.

He's a Skybirdian, Xabba...I'd save your energy. :dead:

[MGR1]

What I wonder is why is it Sturgeon wants to become independent yet wants to remain in a block with 27 other countries?

They did not see a reason to leave the UK, when the latter remained in the EU. The EU has created jobs, and initiated some infrastructure projects. Then, oil. Also, whisky exports ;) Now the situation has drastically changed.

What Catfish wrote, Jim. As a whole, being part of the EU has been good for Scotland. Although I still believe it's fundamentally flawed as a concept, I'll give the EU that. If the UK government had invested properly in the UK as whole (not just in Scotland) instead of into London and the South East, then all that EU money would not have been necessary. Nor would it have raised the spectre of, shall we say, alternative national loyalties.

Everyone for themselves....nothing ever changes much.

Thatcherism's biggest bequest - selfishness (someone had to bring her up!!:O:).

Mike.

[Takeda Shingen]

There goes the credit rating.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-s-p-idUSKCN0ZD2EM

In before "all according to plan" or "you need to run 100 yards backward before you can run 100 yards forward" or some similar nonsense.

[Betonov]

Don't panic, we have a BBB rating and we're still a developed nation :03:

[Takeda Shingen]

I think it is amusing when people try and characterize anything alone the lines of "hey things aren't going very well right now" as panic. No, Betonov, I am not in panic. Nor am I hysterical, obsessive, compulsive or irrational. I'm perfectly fine. Thank you for your concern, though.

[Betonov]

I know you're not panicking and you don't seem to know I'm joking :stare:

[Catfish]

http://i.imgur.com/G2wMWxi.jpg

:haha: :up:
But missing the Zombies :hmmm:

[Oberon]

I know you're not panicking and you don't seem to know I'm joking :stare:

It's all Project Fear™ :haha::O:

Ah, things I think will probably level off eventually, but we're going to be a poorer nation for this decision, even in the long term, I mean the country was still suffering from the ripples of 2008 and this rock was thrown into the pond.

What concerns me more is the social knock-on effect in a nation which is already getting some pretty nasty levels of hatred:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-muslim-racism-hate-crime-islamophobia-eu-referendum-leave-latest-a7106326.html

[Takeda Shingen]

It's all Project Fear™ :haha::O:

Ah, things I think will probably level off eventually, but we're going to be a poorer nation for this decision, even in the long term, I mean the country was still suffering from the ripples of 2008 and this rock was thrown into the pond.

What concerns me more is the social knock-on effect in a nation which is already getting some pretty nasty levels of hatred:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-muslim-racism-hate-crime-islamophobia-eu-referendum-leave-latest-a7106326.html

I'm sure that the new right's apocalyptic fantasies and rise of neo-feudalism won't be coming to light. You're probably looking at something of a Lost Decade scenario but you're not going to be the new Rwanda, at least not financially. What the wingnuts plan to do with all of the undesirables is another matter entirely.

As an aside, I have checked the BBC archives for any references to predictions about Godzilla and Mister Stay Puft burning Parliament to the ground and have found none. I have not cross checked mentions of Gamera or any of the kaiju from Pacific Rim but will do so. I will keep you updated.

[August]

HUH! Jeff Davis resigned? Ol' Abe ignored us!?? One ran away and the other...got shot!:D


About those Johnny Rebs, that picture was taken by their Yankee captors. Just throwing it out there! :)

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

So, basically, aside from losing all the EU funding that we receive, and throwing away our position in the EU decision making process, not a great deal is going to change...certainly not this Australian points based system that so many have talked about. :/\\!!Question: Where does that money come from?

Answer: United Kingdom is net payer meaning it pays more money to EU than it receives. Therefore that "EU funding" is essentially British money circulated via Brussels to England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and so on.

Comment: That money can be used for exactly same things after end of EU membership as it is used for currently. Unless ofcourse UK government signs some sort of treaty which says otherwise.

[MGR1]

Exactly, but therein lyeth the rub. Would Westminster allocate that money the same way with regard to the various parts of the UK if it wasn't wrapped up as an EU development grant?

There's a fair bit of suspicion in "the periphery" that it wouldn't. The money would possibly be used to shore up the government of the day's political position in it's heartlands, which, for the Tories, is mainly the south of England. Thus the north and south west of England, plus Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland would not benefit very much. You'd see an acceleration of current trends - mainly "brain drain" from these areas into London and the South East, thus exacerbating the financial dependency of those areas on the richer parts of England as the local economies start to decline in a vicious spiral.

Mike.

[Betonov]

Exactly, but therein lyeth the rub. Would Westminster allocate that money the same way with regard to the various parts of the UK if it wasn't wrapped up as an EU development grant?


Like I said before on this thread, the EU is more willing to give my taxmoney to my area, while Ljubljana only spends my tax money in Ljubljana.
Especially the last few years since we elected aparty independent mayor.
I trust the EU more to invest in my area than my own country :nope:

[mapuc]

You know what !?

I have lost track on what's happen so far, can't find head or tales in all the information there is coming from English, Danish, Swedish and from reading comments here in our GT and on FB.

It's so much.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

You know what !?

I have lost track on what's happen so far, can't find head or tales in all the information there is coming from English, Danish, Swedish and from reading comments here in our GT and on FB.

It's so much.

Markus

You lucky bugga!! :)

[Catfish]

...I trust the EU more to invest in my area than my own country :nope:

I hate to admit ... i mean ... :shifty::dead:
Nationalism has its drawbacks :03:

But it is not so that the UK does not help other countries, itself. It became the third-biggest economy worldwide (after joining the EU).

And it spends a lot for foreign aid:
http://www.theweek.co.uk/63394/where-exactly-does-britains-122bn-foreign-aid-go
"The bottom line is that ordinary people want politicians to continue to keep our development aid promise to poorer countries."
Which is very generous, i think :hmmm:

[Mittelwaechter]

Free markets in the unions of the free are the child of business. It's not the people to get what they want, but the business. This may result in some simple people having more money to spend, while others lose their jobs.

See, I'm selling shoes - cheap shoes for Germany. I am the largest cheap shoe seller in Europe, with a smaller competitor in France - and there are some high quality shoe manufactures in Hungary and Portugal.
I have saturated the cheap shoe market in my country. Absolutly everybody here has more cheap shoes than necessary, but I have to create growth - for my capitalist business concept is dependent on growth.
I even communicate negative growth, just to communicate growth.

I want a unified Europe with a free market, were I can expose all Europeans to my cheap shoe offers. No toll shall protect the French competitor, protect the French jobs. I am the big fish and I want to grow.
The eastern societies may have not the money to invest even in my cheapest shoes, but if I get a central European government in my favour to allocate taxmoney, collected especially here in the saturated Germany, to those poor societies, they shall have the necessary means to buy my shoes. I would be able to get more money out of the German shoe consumers, by making them pay shoes for other folks.
I am after granted sales and granted profit. I need growth! The free market shall be a controlled market, just hidden behind the labels 'free', 'deregulated' and 'in favour of all'.

(This is the principle of EU taking UK taxmoney and give it to the rural UK regions. The rich centers are fed and have more money than needed. Rich people don't spend the surplus money, but gamble at the stock market to increase it)

See, I build jet fighters. My market is not public, I need governments to buy my jet fighters. I care for a community called NATO, were we are able to define the NATO worthy equippment - my jet fighters. There are cheaper and better jet fighters available on the world market, but I managed to grant my sales and profit. I want the NATO market to grow. I need a growing market because my capitalist business model is endless growth. Accepting Georgia, Ukraine or Moldavia as new NATO members grants me to sell my NATO standard jet fighters. Of course not directly to our new members, because they don't have the money for it. But our collective orders them to get rid of their equippment - sell it to Africa, where my friends care for demand - and buy some used material from my country. And I am able to sell my newest jet fighters to my country again. Ukraine will get some credit from the IMF later, to replace the old equippment bought today. And I will sell them my new jet fighters. too.
The best thing is, my product doesn't have to be high quality, doesn't have to be competitive in this regulated, 'free' market. I can force the costumers - the governments - to buy from me.

Especially with some collected information about their sins, I am able to motivate any government, to buy my expensive but cheaply engineered stuff.
I'm advertising my superior Ducky Drake 35 right now...

... and You'reUp tries to create an independent defence coalition, to get rid of the actual dominant weapons seller...

[Catfish]

^ Lot of truth in it :hmmm:

However if you really have a certain niche, where you produce something very special (and maybe expensive), i would be probably able to hold my own. Until some big fish looks at my store and decides that i fit in their portfolio.. and makes an offer i can't deny.

What i saw is that a lot of products have become cheaper, but this is mostly true for electronics like made in South Korea, and Japan, and now China.
The quality of their products is not bad at all, and if you now buy cheap german products produced locally, they are usually crap. I will not go in the overpriced car industry, i wonder who has enough money to buy a new german car - it's all being leased, borrowed and lent. Not that the cars are worth the prices.

And big business of course lets produce e.g. in China, where they pay a dollar per pour and worker (hello Apple!). And then sell it here for the usual price they could fetch if it was produced here.
Production costs for an iPhone in China: 89 Dollars.
Selling price here: around 1000 $.

The 'problem' is globalism.. but the solution is not to become small, unconnected states again.

[Catfish]

A bit OT:

"Brexit 1975", some good photos:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/brexit-1975-als-grossbritannien-ueber-europa-abstimmte-fotostrecke-138291.html
(If we leave there will be trouble, and if we stay it will be double.. but still: Thatcher for joining the EU)
At the time, Labour and the left were against joining the EU.

"Hey Uwe, du alter Nazi!"
And very good article in german, about an english-german couple. Wow.
http://www.spiegel.de/einestages/a-1099072.html
"Wenn ich zehn Jahre jünger wäre", sagte Churchill kurz nach Kriegsende zu seiner Frau Clementine, "könnte ich vielleicht der erste Präsident der Vereinigten Staaten von Europa werden."
"If i were ten years younger, i could probably become the first president of the United States of Europe.", Winston Churchill to his wife Clementine, shortly after the end of the war.

"Wir waren nicht zimperlich in unserer Journalistenfreundschaft. Wir teilten kräftig aus, aber nie gehässig wie heute die "Kollegen" vom "Daily Telegraph" und - schlimmer noch - von der "Sun", die sich schamlos vor den Karren der EU-Hasser spannen lassen und sich noch lustig finden, wenn sie in ihrer Agitation gegen die angeblichen Weltmachtgelüste Deutschlands immer wieder Hitler heraufbeschwören."
"... We were not gingerly, in our journalist's friendship. We meted out strongly, but never spiteful like today's "colleagues" from the "Daily Telegraph" or - even worse - from the "Sun", who let themselves put brazenly in front of the cart of EU-haters, while considering themselves funny when they agitate against Germany's alleged craving for world power, evoking Hitler time and time again ..."

Well said (but probably not well translated :oops:)

[MGR1]

Like I said before on this thread, the EU is more willing to give my taxmoney to my area,

Precisely.

Even within Scotland, there are areas that trust Brussels over this more than they do Holyrood, let alone Westminster!

Mike.

[Skybird]

Its all a great redistribution scheme -. with career politicians making their living by demanding fees for their "service".

Anyhow, I make two predictions here, maybe it will explode me in my face, but i don't think it will:

1. In man years, the Brits will still be members of the EU. The EU of today, or an EU that will have formed a special status for difficult candidates/members like Britain. The referendum will have no meaning and will be ignored.

2. The ossification (and megalomania) of the EU will continue. The Southern plundering of the North will increase. Merkel will not always stand in the way of the Keynesian debt-fetishists and plunderers from France, Italy, Spain, Greece. - Germany. Will. Pay.

Such are the fruits that come from such planting.

You cannot spend your way out of debts. You cannot afford more than what your economy can sustain. Reality never bows to ideology. Printing money does not make you rich. Ignore this, and the consequences will mount on you until you inevitably break.

[Catfish]

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-06-27/the-u-k-doesn-t-have-a-brexit-plan-but-the-eu-does

"... the EU has defied its reputation for waffling: It does have a plan, as well as people willing to put their signatures to it...."

"The British case is unique. But we must also acknowledge that support and passion for our common project has faded over the last decade in parts of our societies. Neither a simple call for more Europe nor a phase of mere reflection can be an adequate answer. To prevent the silent creeping erosion of our European project we have to be more focused on essentials and on meeting the concrete expectations of our citizens. We are convinced that it is not the existence of the Union that they object to but the way it functions. Our task is twofold: we have to strictly focus our joint efforts on those challenges that can only be addressed by common European answers, while leaving others to national or regional decision making and variation. And we must deliver better on those issues we have chosen to focus on."

Good article

[Catfish]

So while EU-leaders wake up (slowly and finally, but they seem to do) I just read it is worse with the British:

B.t.w. did you read what i wrote trying to answer?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2414595&postcount=896

[Oberon]

LBC (Leading Britains Conversation) host James O'Brien makes a good point, skewering the hypocrisy of The Sun newspaper:

https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/10154082514826558/

[blackswan40]

Now Theres A First England Leaving Europe Twice in Same Week

[Aktungbby]

Am I missing an undercurrent; didn't Scotland vote to stay in the UK on the supposition that it would be in the EU and now may hold another referendum to separate so as to rejoin the EU? http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-scottish-referendum-scotland-eu-remain-nicola-sturgeon-snp-a7100736.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-scottish-referendum-scotland-eu-remain-nicola-sturgeon-snp-a7100736.html)! The alternative, in Scotland’s case at least, is a second independence referendum: something which Sturgeon has said is “on the table”. Some in the SNP, though, consider this a risky strategy (http://www.thenational.scot/comment/marco-biagi-holding-second-indyref-after-brexit-would-risk-throwing-the-independence-campaign-into-disarray.18905). While Scots pragmatically voted Remain, there isn’t a huge fondness for the EU, and framing such a vote as a choice between the EU and the more familiar UK could be difficult terrain on which to campaign. But there are others who argue that walking away from the UK after this EU referendum result would be popular. There's a lot of North $ea oil riding on such a vote!

[MGR1]

The catch with the oil is the cost of extraction versus what it can be sold for. At the moment the former costs more than the latter, largely due to the continuing urinating match between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Therefore Brent crude isn't worth too match. That may or may not change depending on what happens in the future, but what the drop in oil price has shown is just how skewed Scotland's economy is towards one industry. Currently the Scottish part of the UK economy is sliding into recession, Brexit will probably tip it over the edge.

In that case, all the warnings about what would happen to Scotland's economy if it voted for independence would have happened anyway, despite still being part of the UK.

Understandably, many people in Scotland are a bit miffed with the rest of the UK.

Mike.

[Buddahaid]

I thought Scots were always a bit miffed as a national pass time.

[blackswan40]

Article - 50 from what I understand David Cameron is not Sailing Happy Ship Blighty through the Brexit Door today or next week or next month that's a job for the new Prime Minister who ever that will be so at best another three months of Financial uncertainty in the markets or will there be blue birds over the White Cliffs of Dover Tomorrow just you wait & see
Once Britan Leaves the EU will the British Pound have 240 Pence in it
like it did before we joined the Common Market

:Kaleun_Party::k_rofl::Kaleun_Party:

[em2nought]

I thought Scots were always a bit miffed as a national pass time.

Is miffed slang for schnockered? :har:

[Sailor Steve]

Is miffed slang for schnockered? :har:
It's slang for pissed, which in BritSpeak can also mean schnockered, so I guess yeah, it could be. :O:

[Rockstar]

I guess if I were to offer advice to those who are against and oppose the certain change BREXIT is going to bring to your country. I suggest this great advice: stop being unreasonably afraid. I mean really, your fears are unfounded and you dont want to be 'like them' do you? So just deal with it because it's the new norm!

[Oberon]

When we figure out what the new norm is...

Because right now, no-one actually seems to know...which is a bit disconcerting.

[Torplexed]

Enhough doom and gloom. Come the fall, Britons need to rickroll the vote.

http://www.robvegas.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rick-Astley-Prime-Minister-338x480.jpg

[Oberon]

I'd be down for PM Astley, we've had an Asquith which is close enough. :yeah:

That being said, one of the latest rumours from Bojo central is that if he gets the Tory leadership then he might not call an election. :doh:

Little wonder the crowd outside Parliament this evening were chanting "What's your plan?!" :dead:

[blackswan40]

I prefer Billy Bragg heres on of his iccle numbers

Days Like These lyrics

The party that became so powerful by sinking
Foreign boats
Is dreaming up new promises because promises
Win votes
And being resolute in conference with the
Ad man's expertise
The majority by their silence shall pay for days like these

The right to build communities is back behind
Closed doors
'tween government and people stands the right arm
Of the law
And shame upon the patriot when the mark of the
Bulldog breed
Is a family without a home and a pensioner in need

Those whose lives are ruled by dogma are waiting
For a sign
The better dead than red brigade are listening on the line
And the liberal, with a small l cries in front of the tv
And another demonstration passes on to history
Peace, bread, work, and freedom is the best we
Can achieve
And wearing badges is not enough in days like these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSuqpqfM7AQ

[MGR1]

It's slang for pissed, which in BritSpeak can also mean schnockered, so I guess yeah, it could be. :O:

I think I did see something a while ago that said that we Scots have something like 90 different terms for being drunk....

Mike.:03:

[Catfish]

I think I did see something a while ago that said that we Scots have something like 90 different terms for being drunk....

Mike.:03:

There are certainly more than 90 grades of being drunk :haha:

[Skybird]

Brilliant idea in Der Tagesspiegel:

after the Brits voted for Brexit, and the English football team executed it, Hodgson becomes new Prime Minister.

:D

[Takeda Shingen]

In the meanwhile market prices in Great Britain seem to have stabilized with a loaf of bread being valued at 2 and a half cartons of cigarettes. Similarly most merchants will accept 3 liters of unfiltered water or 8 pounds of scrap metal.

[bertieck476]

Dont see what the Scots have got to be miffed at. When you had your referendum everyone knew there was going to be another referendum on EU membership, but Scotland voted to stay.
Ms sturgeon saying its a democratic disgrace is all about rabble rousing so the snp can justify another independence vote, if the first one had resulted in 51 to 49 for yes she wouldn't be calling it a democratic disgrace, you'd be a independent scotland now even though practically half wanted to keep the union.
I cant get over the hypocrisy of the snp's position, leading up to the independence referendum European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to join the European Union. This was just waved away as nonsense, they were happy to go ahead and try and win independence and be outside the EU but now its a disgrace.

[MGR1]

Well, Sturgeon's had her little jaunt to Brussels to fight Scotland's corner.

Naturally she's been told "we'll talk to you if/when Scotland's an independent state". Add to the fact that no national leaders wished to speak with her, plus the "the whole UK is leaving, not part of it" twitter comment from Hollande and the usual rhetoric from Spain, I can't quite see how useful her publicly stated mission was.

However, we don't actually know the precise contenets of her discussions, and I highly doubt anyone will be told.

From what I can decipher of what seems to be the SNP's policies at the moment, they know that there's nothing they can do about the UK leaving the EU. Soooo, I lay reasonable odds that Sturgeon's sounding out the EU's opinions on an independent Scotland being successfull in applying for and getting EU membership.

It would be reasonable to say this was just a scouting and fact finding mission to help the SNP design a new campaign plan for themselves in the event of another IndyRef for Scotland.

Mike.

[MGR1]

Dont see what the Scots have got to be miffed at. When you had your referendum everyone knew there was going to be another referendum on EU membership, but Scotland voted to stay.
Ms sturgeon saying its a democratic disgrace is all about rabble rousing so the snp can justify another independence vote, if the first one had resulted in 51 to 49 for yes she wouldn't be calling it a democratic disgrace, you'd be a independent scotland now even though practically half wanted to keep the union.
I cant get over the hypocrisy of the snp's position, leading up to the independence referendum European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to join the European Union. This was just waved away as nonsense, they were happy to go ahead and try and win independence and be outside the EU but now its a disgrace.

The SNP are nothing if not persistant, Bertie. Independence for Scotland is their entire raison d'etre and they're now sitting on some very dedicated support, probably a bit too dedicated even for their own tastes.

All of Sturgeon's rhetoric is for the benefit of her own domestic support, not the rest of the UK.

There also isn't any large scale, organised, political opposition to the SNP within Scotland. Scotland isn't a one party dictatorship, but it has tended to one party hegemony, to use one Scottish political commentators term. True adverserial, two party, democracy has never fully developed here. It's a bit weak in comparison with England's.

What that boils down to is that the SNP are considered to be the best of a bad lot. They may not be dynamite governing, but they have made a much better job of it than their Labour predecessors. They've actually tried to fix things, whilst their Labour and Unionist (i.e. Tory) predecessors generally didn't. As I've written before, if previous UK Governments had run the country (not just Scotland, but the entire UK) more wisely in comparison to the way they actually have, I don't think the SNP (and UKIP, let's be honest) would have been able to find a font of discontent they could use to further they're own aims.

There's also a little matter of national identity and how you view the UK:

Is it one single nation, or is it four nations working together?

Mike.

[Catfish]

^ If Scotland, England and Ireland edit: and Wales, sorry (thanks MGR1) each send its own football teams, they should all be independent. Otherwise the UK should have one team? :)

[MGR1]

Don't forget Wales!:O:

When it comes to football (soccer) the UK fields four teams and in rugby, three (Northern Ireland joins with Eire for that).

Likewise cricket - it's England, not the UK.

In ideal circumstances in all three it should be "Team GB" as it is for other sports.

It has been mooted for football, but it hasn't progressed very far largely due to fears that it would end up being "Team England" by another name.

That's what I mean by the UK's national identity being something of a question mark as it means different things to different people.

As mapuc asked in his earlier thread, when is it British and when is it not? A question not helped when "England" has always been shorthand for "Britain".

Mike.

[Oberon]

Is it one single nation, or is it four nations working together?

Working what? I think the together has gone out the window somewhat. :haha:

[Skybird]

The parliament of the German federal state of Northrhine-Westfalia now considers it to be discrmination if the official oaths that representatives swear if they get elected into offices or parlimant include the formula "I swear to serve... blablabla... for the German people." This prevents integration, said the Green socialists, and the red socialist agreed. Instead, the formula now reads "for the state of Northrhine-Westfalia" only - the evil, wicked, sub-valued, racist, integration-preventing German people no longer get mentioned.

This has two implications. First, politicians consider themselves to no longer working for the people, and worse: they put the state before the people; and second: they deny that this country belongs to and is property of the people and their forefathers who over generation have formed and build this country.

In 2014, the former Swedish prime minister told the Swedish people this:

"There is a choice of which country Sweden will be. Is this a land that is owned by those who have lived here for three or four generations, or is Sweden [a country] where people who come here in mid-life makes it to be and develops it? To me, it is obvious that it should be the latter and that there is a stronger and better society if it will be open [to more immigration].”

In other words: Sweden does not belong to the Swedes. It belongs to the foreigners.

Europe will not stop until it has completely destroyed itself.

Don't dare to waver, dear Brits - your decision was a tough one, but you made the right one. Obeying the tyrants in Brussel would have been easier, yes: but the easy way often is not the right way. And do not allow the EU to blackmail you in the future: "no market access if no total and uncontrolled migration into Britain". That island of yours - is yours, and yours alone. Do not let them take it away from you.

Juncker today said he wants to bypass all national parliaments and waving through the CETA agreement with Canada all alone, only decided by the EU central commitee. And he dares to pull that stunt after what just has happened in Britain! Totally disconnected form reality, he still has no clue that his doings and plans are not part of a solution, but represents the essence of the crisis the EU is in. Stupid old man. Unscrupulous, silly man.

BTW, has anyone ever noticed how he uses body language and physical domination gestures to press persons he deals with vis a vis into a subordinate position and into the defensive from all beginning on? He grabs their heads and dunk them down, pats their faces and heads with one hand and hold their head with the other so that they cannot escape, and he pulls them down and kisses them onto the top of the head, or leaves his hand rest on their head for longer time, resulting them in necessarily having a bowed head. You can see this kind of aggressive body language in quite some mammal species.

Dieser Typ ist so ekelhaft.

If somebody would dare to grab my head for a greeting, and foricng my head down and forcing me to allow him kissing me and patting me, he would risk a violent reply.

[Catfish]

^ You've got to cut drunks some slack :-?:nope:

[MGR1]

Working what? I think the together has gone out the window somewhat. :haha:

Yup, definitely a problem if people in both England and Scotland can't think of a good reason to keep the UK together beyond money and inertia.

Certainly the vitriol directed at each other by internet warriors hardly helps.

Wasn't it an American who said that Britain had a problem defining itself after the Empire? Perhaps the UK is indeed in the "endgame" period.:hmmm:

Who knows what the future holds, as they say.

Mike.

[Catfish]

What did they say against the EU, and promise after a "Brexit"?

There was this argument about "unelected politicians" in Brussels.
Somewhat amusing and not true. Amusing especially when considering the unelected politicians in the House of Lords (which apparently are totally legit, because ... traditions, the ultimate British non-argument). Double-standards, eh?

And you directly elect MEPs to the European Parliament, who vote on laws proposed and prepared by the European Commission - the EU equivalent of your own (unelected) Civil Service, which performs the same function. The whole system, structure, pay, is incredibly transparent and well-documented.
If people were not too lazy to read them, but ranting is easier and more fun.

Just when was the last time you voted on whether you should adopt a particular law? Did you vote in the Data Protection Act 1998? The millions of cameras in London? The Charities Act 2011? The Industrial Development Act 1982? Of course not. There is a representative democracy in the UK, and by constituency elections you choose and empower a politician to represent your interests (and those of their party). The voting public, have never had any "control" to take back beyond your choice of politician.


The EU has modified or introduced laws that the UK adopts, or not. Sometimes these are annoying, sometimes they actually stop your government from doing something unpleasant or unethical. Sometimes the UK even actually started the whole process because they wanted the EU to do something, or indeed blame the EU for desired legislation that would have been unpopular had it been introduced by your own government.
And the UK has so much extra treaties deviating from the EU legislation that it almost never was in the EU.

One of the best things, for trade and as a citizen, is that these laws are the same (in one form or another) across all 28 member states. And your elected representatives (voting with regard to your own political party views) often agreed to them along with everyone else!


Then there were e.g. the fishing rights.

Also, it wasn't the EU that took away fishing rights from Scotland or the UK. The British government sold their national quotas to the highest bidders, which they hadn't have to. There's a lot to be said about European fishery policy (and curved bananas), but does anyone seriously believe that totally unregulated fishing would have yielded a better result? The seas around Europe would be devoid of all fish without the application of quotas and limitations of fishing net mesh widths, so the fishing industry would have gone south just as well, just faster, and with an even worse ecological impact if it had been left exclusively to national and non-regulation.

It speaks volumes when Mr. Gove brings up his father's terrible fate as his "career as a fisherman was destroyed by the EU", and said father goes on record saing that the EU had nothing to do with his decision to change jobs.


Apart from hating the EU, falling for Farage's immigrant hate and patriotism being misunderstood i can see no sober reason why you decided to leave :shifty:

[Reece]

Independence for one.:yep:

[Catfish]

Independence from trade? From resources, like oil?
Independence from necessities and basics demands of living?

Sovereignty, yes. England and GB maybe would have been sovereign after a 'Boadicean' victory against Rome. Then came the Saxons, then the Normans. It was not all an invasion, more an assimilation of immigrants.

Independence from your environment. Words.


edit: Sorry reading this it came along arrogant or doctrinarily (doctrinaire?), it is not meant that way.
What i mean is that this word does not really fit in the context of the UK and the EU, since the UK is represented, and chose to join voluntarily. It also exited voluntarily (or so it seems), but as i wrote i cannot see a real reason for that decision, apart from patriotic-sounding words.

Living well and having my say is better than having no influence and be poorer, financially and culturally, while enforcing laws that are worse for the people. Even if i can then call myself independent. Regarding resourses this is probably easier for Australia, than for England/GB. And the other european nations.

[Reece]

Independence, being able to make their own (UK) decisions for the benefit of their own country. That is the impression I got, but in the end it was their own decision to leave, they have to make the best of it now.:yep:

edit: Sorry reading this it came along arrogant or doctrinarily (doctrinaire?), it is not meant that way. Politics has that effect!:salute:

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/4DBNpUo.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UL3bydx.jpg

[blackswan40]

Michael Gove Borjo's Campaign Manager has Now Thrown his Hat into the Torie Leadership Contest

So by October 2016 The Milkybar Kid Could Be Our New Prime Minister


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/zZUg1x.png (https://imageshack.com/i/pnzZUg1xp)

[Oberon]

It's sheer chaos in the Tory ranks at the moment! :har:

[Catfish]

http://i.imgur.com/4DBNpUo.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UL3bydx.jpg


:haha:
B.t.w. he is from french ancestry, and married to a german.
I agree, those immigrants can be tiresome.

[Skybird]

In the 1980s, Greenland had to open its fishing grounds for the EU flotillas, because Greenland was under rule of Denmark. Greenlanders were against this step by huge majority, like today the Scots and Irish. It led to a bitter conflict with Denmark with Greenland's de facto autonomy being the result - and so Greenland left the EU. No, Britain's Brexit is NOT the first event of this case, although back then it was the European Economy Union.

However, thjey then negotiated the EU'S imperial demand to open their fishing grounds, and soled them for a yearly fee that was described to be the most costly fishing deal ever done anywhere on the planet. Foreign flottilas got what they wanted, and Greenölan ders got wehat they wnatedf.

Deal is deal, one would assume. Pacta sund servanda. You do not know the EU!

Today, only a part of that money is being paid to Greenland in cash. The EU took it upon itself to decide that some share of it should only be indirectly be paid now, into funds that may be linked to Greenland, but are decided in volume and purpose in Brussels, because foreigners in Brussels needing to justify their pensions and overpriced incomes and tax privileges need to to something to justify these, and since they claim to know better what is good for local people, they know it better than the local people.

Same story we see so often with the EU: treaty is not really treaty. Law is not really law.

It is a good advice if negotiating something with the EU to never accept anything that sounds beneficial but in the end makes you depending on it. You may have been strong in the beginning - but in the end you end up weak.

[Reece]

Michael Gove Borjo's Campaign Manager has Now Thrown his Hat into the Torie Leadership Contest

So by October 2016 The Milkybar Kid Could Be Our New Prime Minister


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/zZUg1x.png (https://imageshack.com/i/pnzZUg1xp)

Press (http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/)

[Jimbuna]

and so Greenland left the EU. No, Britain's Brexit is NOT the first event of this case

A true fact and one I suspect is not as widely known as some may think :yep:

[Catfish]

@Skybird

"Greenland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland), a self-governing territory of the European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) (EU) member state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union) of Denmark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark), is one of the EU's overseas countries and territories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_ Union) (OCT)."
"Greenlandic citizens have EU citizenship" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_citizenship)

Greenland left the EEC in the 1980ies. Disputes were - among other details - about seal hunting, which the EU only wanted to grant to the native Inuit. Not so bad a decision, even if you do not like Greenpeace.
The EU together with Greenland later changed the treaties regarding fishing grounds, because the EU fished much less in greenlandish waters, than was being paid for. So it is was not a costly fishing deal for Greenland, but the EU!
The EU still pays Greenland almost as much as when it was a "full" member of the EU. Greenland relies on significant EU funds for schools, and receive further money from "selling" some fishing rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations

It is a good advice if negotiating something with the EU to never accept anything that sounds beneficial but in the end makes you depending on it. You may have been strong in the beginning - but in the end you end up weak.
Thinking before making treaties is beneficial for all countries negotiating, however where exactly is Greenland so bad off?

So what lessons are there for the UK? Not that many. Greenland is a country of 56,000 people with an economy dominated by a single industry, fishing. Britain is neither of those things.

[STEED]

Greenland left the EEC not the EU back in the 1980's. :O::03:

[Oberon]

Boris is out! :o

That's a lot of gamblers out of pocket! :doh:

[Catfish]

Boris is out! :o

"Speaking at a hotel in central London, Johnson said the agenda for the next prime minister was for the UK to become a more outward-looking nation that resets its relationship with Europe."

I hear Mr. Farage would probably ...

[Oberon]

I hear Mr. Farage would probably ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc


Meanwhile - the current status of the left and right wings of British politics:

http://i.imgur.com/1tfPPvv.jpg

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc

Meanwhile - the current status of the left and right wings of British politics:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmMhe_4WIAAUOkx.jpg

Thanks, but again i cannot see the second link, or picture. Two different browsers, two different PCs at different locations. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

@Skybird
Greenland left the EEC in the 1980ies, the EU later. But maybe enter it again soon. Disputes were - among other details - about seal hunting, which the EU only wanted to grant to the native Inuit. Not so bad a decision, even if you do not like Greenpeace.
The EU together with Greenland later changed the treaties regarding fishing grounds, because the EU fished much less in greenlandish waters, than was being paid for. So it is was not a costly fishing deal for Greenland, but the EU!
The EU still pays Greenland almost as much as when it was a member in the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations

Thinking before making treaties is beneficial for all countries negotiating, however where exactly is Iceland so bad off?
I know, but you udnerstood me wrong. The financial deal was good for Greenland, costly for the EU.

However, the Eu later almost blackmailed them when "cutting" the costs it formerly had agreed to. While one could at least understand that when they do less fishging there, they want to pay less, it is unacceptable that a foreign entity decides unilaterally to pay out the remaining money only in partly in cahs, but the rest into funds that were decided on in Brussel. This also was a bitter conflict, because it was a way by which the Eu again tried to enforce more influence in inner politics.

Thats why I said one should be careful to accept no benefits from the eU that make oneself depending on them. If one became depending, they can and will blackmail you. The EU always should be something that in case of coubt you also can do without - without this distancing threatening you. Closer you better should not get to it, history teaches. I just do not believe in that if you put two weaks together, their additions make them strong. To me it more sounds like even more weakness. The EU is a parade example.

The EU now wants to give access to the trading market only if Britian allows undiscmrinated, uncontrolled miogration. Both things have nothign to do with it but it is already again the kind of madness that has brought us ot this pass. If you order an item and the producer sends you the product and you paid the demande dprice, the deal is done. Finish. End. Ther emight be warranty rules playing a role for some months or even years, but thats it. Why the customer now should ahve the right to demand the producer to return parts of the money he got, to pay for the customer's debts, or why the producer must accept that the customer de,mands him to give some people he knows a hjob, is beyond me. The producer dfid ntoi get the customer's money for free - it was no gift! It was a price, paid for the product that the customer wanted, and got. Deal is done. No further claims can be based on it.

I see no reason why Germanyx is expected to accept that it must pay for others because its economy is still going a bit better than that of others. Germans do not get this for free - they work for it. German products got delivered for the money customers in other countries pay for it. They do not do us gifts and favours, Germ,any does not get these moneys for free, but its a deal, and the deal is: product for money. If you do not want us to have that money, do not buy our products then. Simple, isn't it. Your debts and your partying at home that you cannot afford - have not been part of that deal. The agreed product was delivered by us, the agreed price was paid by you (or not), we are done with each other. Finish. You want more? Pay us. You cannot afford it? Don't order. So simple it is.

Same is true for Britain. If they negotiate trading right son the EU market, it is about easing formalities,so that the traffic of products goes easy. Both imports and exports are affected, the advanatges are mutual - What the heck has enforced indifferentiated migration to do with it? NOTHING! The only ones who have a word in whom they allow to live in their place and whom not, are the Britons themselves. Not Brussel.

I also see no reaosn for many of the other horror stories there are. Why should Britain not continue to allow foreign students at its universities? Do foreign students need Brussels' permission to do so? Oxford and Cambridge and so forth still have world-class prestige, even if the EU is stupid enough to ban British university diploma from being legally accepoted for job qualificvaitons in Europe (which says somehtign about how far state contorl of the planned economy already has gone), the qualification is in sufficient demand so that British students still could move elsewehre, if they want to not stay in Britain.

It is fully understandable that Britain takes its time with declaring article 50. The disadvantage from the uncertainty hurts the continent and the EU more, than Britain. Even if the EU currently wants to pose as being the unmovable mountain, it will need to move and negotiate before the clock has started to tick down those two years. Britain is well advised to not declare art 50 be3fore major key issues hasve been formally agree on, else the eU will become the one using time as its weapon and press Britain the more the less time of those two years remain.

I do not think that Britian's position is as weak, as some Eurocrats try to make the public believe. My best advise woulkd be: TAKE YOUR TIME. Time is your best ally. Let it go too easily, and you will find yourself between a rock and a hard place. Britian has the longer breath over the EU, regarding time. Its biggest advantage.

Regarding the Scottish referendum, for sentimental reasons I would regret if "United Kingdom" would become a name formt he past, but then - that is sentimentality again, evolution means to adapt to always changing circumstances, and those who fail to adapt, go extinct. If the Scots want to leave, let them. Its their birth right to decide for themselves anyway.

In the long run I still think this watershed event holds more chances than risks for Britain.

[Oberon]

Thanks, but again i cannot see the second link, or picture. Two different browsers, two different PCs at different locations. :hmmm:

Bloody GCHQ...one moment, I'll fix it. :up:

[Catfish]

@Skybird: Regarding Greenland you have some arguments, alright. But i would not consider the drawbacks and mistakes to be intentional or done due to bad faith, but simply evolution of an international club of nations that has not existed before.

Single European Act 1986
"A more generalised free movement of persons for nationals of the member states within the enlarged European Community was hastened following the Single European Act, which came into force in 1987. The treaty was championed by UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, who wished to see the European customs union developed more fully into a single market, with the removal of internal barriers impeding the free flow of capital, goods, and services. A more generalised free movement of persons was viewed as necessary to realise a genuine single market."

Regarding free movement etc. the above is valid for the EU, and not for Africa, or countries like Pakistan. On the other hand the UK grants its Commonwealth members the right to live in e.g. England.
This has nothing to do with the EU.
AND:
"Article 14(1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a14) (UDHR), which was adopted in 1948, guarantees the right to seek and enjoy asylum in other countries."
Which means that the UK has to accept or deny refugees from Africa or the Middle East by the same international laws. And this is international law signed by the United Kingdom in 1951, and ever since ratified.
The UK will still have to accept refugees, especially when they are not citizens of the EU.


In the long run I still think this watershed event holds more chances than risks for Britain.We will see, it is entirely possible. I wish them and us the best. :)

[MGR1]

We've the usual slanging match during First Minister's questions at Holyrood, Nippy versus Ruthie over the effects of Brexit and a possible IndyRef on Scotland.

Score draw.

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Nicola hasn't had a chance to sharpen her claws yet...give her a little time :)

[HunterICX]

Boris is out! :o

I'll refrain from putting the words down I yelled at the TV when I heard that :rotfl2:

So he saw himself running the country into the ground but not seeying himself at the lead picking up the pieces and give the people the Britain he campaigned for :yeah:

Well played Boris, Well played!

[Skybird]

"Article 14(1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a14) (UDHR), which was adopted in 1948, guarantees the right to seek and enjoy asylum in other countries."
Which means that the UK has to accept or deny refugees from Africa or the Middle East by the same international laws. And this is international law signed by the United Kingdom in 1951, and ever since ratified.
The UK will still have to accept refugees, especially when they are not citizens of the EU.

This "law" has been successfully so fundamentally abused, like many other so-called "human rights", that now every agenda that wants recognition tries to be declared as a human right: it goes as far as the human right for banking account without securities (the community comes up for that, enforced), and access to an internet account one cannot pay for.

Regarding Asylum, I have said it often by now: I do not accept that to be called a Human Right. Governments giving asylum are coercive towards their own population, and I do not accept that. Asylum given by states leads to freedom rights of local populations being violated on behalf of those place-foreign asylum seekers - again, this decision to share, in the widest sense, can only be made voluntarily and individually by the single person, and shall never be enforced on the population by a government. Finally, a general right of asylum cannot be reasonably and logically construed from Natural Law, and the three Human Rights that I exclusively accept to be basic human rights indeed and that i have repeatedly explained on various opportunities, also do not support the claim that there could be a fundamental basic human right for being given asylum.

So, hinting at the so-claimed "human right" for general asylum, does not impress me.

I demand you and people of your thinking to depend on voluntary acts of people sympathising with your way of thought. And who knows, when checking case for case you may even get my support on some cases, and on some cases you won't. To declare people seeking asylum as legally more valid than the natural population of a place, is not acceptable for me, for it violates MY human right for my own freedom and property.

And lets face it, from a pragmatical perspective as well: neither can be import all suffering and evils of the world and claim them to be our responsibilities (they are clearly not), nor can we ignore the fact that their is massive, huge, wide-spread and very voluminous abuse of "asylum". And for some of our treacherous allies like Erdoghanistan, enforcing demographic change by invading us via legalised migration on grounds of asylum, is a weapon that is aiming to destroy us by eroding our social system and overloading our financial systems, increasing tension that kill structural integrity of our societies, and finally sees them exploding, with them then taking over in the name of their own nationalism, or religious ideologies. We see that happening in France, Sweden, sometimes England, and increasingly in Germany, and else.

Im not a good masochist. I reject to crucify myself on moral terms that may be well-meant in themselves, but that get redirected at me and turned into the tool for my intended destruction. What kind of fool would I be if I accept that being done to me - with my morally blackmailed agreement that excuses this violation of my natural rights? I would be needed to be laughed out of town. Such basic rights are precious, and so I hold such rights in higher esteem, then the state, and many others.

Finally, your last sentence said
"And this is international law signed by the United Kingdom in 1951, and ever since ratified.The UK will still have to accept refugees, especially when they are not citizens of the EU."
Even if this were so, this still is no issue for the EU and Britain and their bilateral trade negotiations. It is not the EU's job to tell another nation whom they have to let in and whom not. The issues of wealth migration (and that is what the major part of the issue is about), refugees, and European neighbours trafficking in and out for work and businbess contacts, are all totally different. The Right for Asylum can only be used on the refugees - not on work-traffickers, or wealth migration. And it has nothing to do with bartering goods and "money" on a shared open market.

Keep things separate that are separate from all start on. The EU wants to blackmail Britian with this artificial linking, not accepting that this is one of the top issues that Britons probably has driven out of the EU. Now they must be taught - no. matter.what.

As I said, I think Britain has good reasons to trust in it having the longer breath here. At least as long as not some idiot becomes next government leader who cannot wait until he or she is allowed to drop pants and bending over.

[Schroeder]

I'll refrain from putting the words down I yelled at the TV when I heard that :rotfl2:

So he saw himself running the country into the ground but not seeying himself at the lead picking up the pieces and give the people the Britain he campaigned for :yeah:

Well played Boris, Well played!
I hope everyone is proud of the Brexit campaign heads.
One runs home with the tail between his legs and the other just made a complete fool out of himself in Brussels.
Congratulations UK you scored big time with these two clowns.:yeah:

BTW did nobody ever ask them during the campaign what their actual plan was?:doh:
I mean it's obvious they don't have the foggiest what to do now let alone a well thought out plan to go with even though the Brexit campaign was head to head with Bremain for months so even the dumbest idiot should have seen that there was at least a chance that Brexit would win but that obviously never crossed the Brexit leaders' minds and now they are completely unprepared.:/\\!!
What have you actually been discussing over the last few months in the campaigns????:doh:

What a royal mess!:nope: