Brexit ?

[Jimbuna]

Is that the same Juncker who maybe a week ago during a trip to France was asked what was to come of the EU treaties that make it mandatory for France to cut its yearly deficit to below I think 3% and that states should never expect or be allowed to get bailed out, and who only answered with something like this (translated from my mind, from the German news): "Those treaties were for the France of the past, but I deal with the modern France. The France that is now."

In other words: treaties mean nothing for this lying, cheating fraudster? Is this the same Juncker?

That such people like him get spilled to the top of EU hierachy time and again, is one of the best aergument against tzhe EU, and for bringing it down. An organisaiton where imposters and fraudster and liars like him are the rule, not the excpeiton, obviously is run by principles that not only allow, but work for making this possible.

Its like with FIFA's claim to work for anti-corruption all by itself, and cleaning itself up without need and help from outside. It just does not work that way.

Bureaucracies are a well-deceived form of dictatorship by which established elites in states keep themselves in power, and bring more and more of their family into lucrative positions.

What happened to pacta sund servanda... All animals are equal. But the party pigs are even more equal than equal.

All the more reason to get out if at all possible.....before the whole house of cards collapses.

[Respenus]

I feel it is high time to bring some levity into the Brexit discussion on Subsim, so here is a win-win scenario for England :)

http://i.imgur.com/WznvO8E.png

[MGR1]

A little bit of "Scotia Nostra" might be just what the EU needs.....!:O:

Mike.:03:

[Jimbuna]

Last chance to register for in or out...midnight tonight.

[Respenus]

I guess the following news will be warmly welcomed by some in this thread:

Euroscepticism on rise in Europe, poll suggests (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36471989)

Euroscepticism is on the rise across Europe, new research has suggested, with little more than two weeks to go before Britons decide whether to remain within the EU.
Nonetheless, the Pew Research Center report found that a slim majority - a median of 51% - of respondents across 10 EU countries still favoured the EU.
Forty-two percent want more power returned to their national capitals.
Another poll has found most Europeans want the UK to stay in the EU.
And it seems that the Danes may be following suit (with the Italians and French close behind)

More Danes want referendum on EU membership (https://euobserver.com/institutional/133738)

Forty two percent of Danes want a UK-type referendum on EU membership, up five points on three months ago. "It would be an extremely bad idea", one leading party said.Maybe, just maybe, the threat or realisation of Brexit will be sufficient to create momentum towards a new Intergovernmental Conference (official terminology for a grand debate that would create a new treaty), where a new, more adapted to the 21st century/relevant document would be signed. What many here will like is that the current treaties (Article 48 of the TEU) allow for the following:

These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.

I personally hope for the latter than for total dissolution.

[Jimbuna]

Last chance to register for in or out...midnight tonight.

Surprise, surprise, a last minute surge brought the system down.

Do we say "Tough luck, you shouldn't have waited till the last moment despite weeks of national reminders in the press and on tv etc." or have an extention?

Mr Cameron is certainly for the latter probably because it is widely thought it is the younger generation who are unable to register and those are the people who are expected to vote 'IN'.

David Cameron has urged people to continue to register to vote after an online glitch ahead of the EU referendum registration deadline.
The prime minister tweeted a link to the sign-up page and said "urgent discussions" were taking place to ensure people who register can vote.
The Electoral Commission called for the registration deadline to be extended.
The problems lasted from 22:15 BST on Tuesday until after the midnight deadline.
Users reported a page displaying the message "504 Gateway Time-out" instead of the online registration form.
The government blamed "unprecedented demand" with over half a million people trying to register to vote on Tuesday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36476176

My money is on an extension.

Be prepared for a turnout of somewhere around 80%

[Catfish]

re Respenus' links:

Getting dumb and dumber.
Back to single governments and nationalist patriotic views, furious citizens at the helm, Generation Y on the march everywhere. Bring back death penalty, hate all immigrants and cry with the masses.
Before at least someone did something instead of only criticizing and bitching all the time, while waiting that the world realizes how great he and his view of the world is.
It seems that after a war it only needs a generation or two until all is forgotten; and hate, prejudice and war starts anew :shifty:

[Skybird]

I wonder if the link between growing tension and animosities and the growing totalitarian centralism of the EU and the Euro disaster, really tells you nothing, Catfish. Are you really that determined to deal with this link just as if it were non-existing, at least meaning nothing? Do you really think of more of what has caused the problems to raise and constantly grow, will finally solve them one unknown, distant, questionable day?

Centralism and collectivism may be tempting ideologies, in your ears, I do not understand how somebody can like these and support these, but obviously such people do exist. But if theory collides with reality and both cannot come together, i know that it is always theory that is wrong. ALWAYS. And the EU ideologists want what oh so many people do not want, and the EU way too far reminds of the patterns and structures of power organisation and accumulation we know from the Soviet system, and the Third Reich. And the GDR system.

You crazy Germans! Two major disasters with totalitarian socialist experiments, with planned economies and total state control within the past 80 years - and yet you already are busy again with demanding more collectivism, more socialism, and more centralist state power! You Germans are a lost case. You are right, it seems: people do not learn.

I have given up on the Germans already years ago. Wer nicht hören will, muß fühlen - but even then he may refuse to learn the lesson.

The famous "I have a dream" speech by German libertarian and powerfully eloquent freedom thinker Roland Baader, from his book "Kreide für den Wolf" (beware, this is in German language):

http://ef-magazin.de/2012/01/09/3353-roland-baaders-traum-zum-abschied

Amen.

But instead: Atlas Shrugged is turning into reality more and more. The described outcome in that novel will find us. Inevitably. Its the logical, causal consequence.

[Catfish]

I detest the site's name, but it is not bad at all, here they even have something to say about 'Brexit'.
Only about scientific funding, however if England would be able to divert the spared money to science, after a Brexit, it would probably(!) cope up. I just doubt a politician who cannot have the oversight of what all is happening, would be able to care for every detail, let alone scientific research.

"How will British Science be affected if the UK votes to leave the EU?"
http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/british-affected-uk-votes-leave-eu/

" ...Far more directly, however, the funding the UK would receive would evaporate. The UK, one of the richest nations on Earth, contributed around $6.1 billion to the EU’s research program over the period 2007 – 2013; during this time, it received $9,9 billion in direct EU funding for research, development and innovation activities – making it a net receiver of science funding. These figures aren’t projections or estimates; they’re recorded facts... "I am by far no expert, but i find it ridiculous how all those self-appointed experts bitch and bash the EU (and everything else, it's just about ranting, no facts needed) while not having the faintest idea about what it does and its advantages. Certainly there is good old corruption in the EU (i am sure you will never have this in England, after a Brexit :03:)
I guess it's true what the Romans stitched on some halters "You are either a hater or not". Seems some people have not much fun over there.

[/rant]

Just read some "opinions" of furious citizens ranting about each and everything in F@ceb00k, explaining or better perpetrating their uninformed "philosophy" and "world view". I was just overcome by this "!"§$%&/ and had to rant myself :/\\!! :nope:

[Jimbuna]

In the most simplest and fundamental terms my limited educational capability will allow....

Those who are against EU membership do so because they wish to be able to make their own laws and maintain control of their countries borders.

Immigration is an add on created by the mess mainland Europe currently finds itself in.

Who caused it or dare I say encouraged it are of minor significance in the wider scheme of things.

Call it British mentality, stupidity or anything else you care to but we are what we are and want more than we are currently permitted to have.

[Betonov]

I am by far no expert, but i find it ridiculous how all those self-appointed experts bitch and bash the EU (and everything else, it's just about ranting, no facts needed) while not having the faintest idea about what it does and its advantages.

I live in a small municipality with a politically independent mayor and council, which means we're ignored or shuned by the rulling parties in Ljubljana.
And we still managed to replace half of all of the municipal roads (that were 30 years old at that time) and the other half is on paper and ready to begin when weather permits. All with EU money. Spent as intended.
Thousands were also spent to improve tourism venues and we had a rise of tourism income, EU money was also invested in a local industry zone and 2 companies already sprung up there employing 200 people.
So let me put it in simple words: 200 JOBS were CREATED with EU FUNDS.
A large grant was also given to our company to re-start the production of boats after we broke last year and I got employed along with another 120 people and we're doing so good that a further 100 will get jobs in a few months just so we can keep up with the orders.
So again: 120 JOBS were CREATED with EU FUNDS

So taxes I paid to the state and we're paid to the EU actually got invested into a better living area for me and others, unlike the taxes I paid and were kept by the state, that were kept by the state.

To end this rant let me just say, I'd realllllllly want to live in a country, that consideres EU totalitarian. Really, if that totalitarian to you, than your local goverment is run by elves and unicorns and they poop tax deductible subsidies that you receive just for breathing.

[Skybird]

So you imply that EU bureaucrats and politicians are the better, the smarter, the less selfish people?

I have a better model for you. Instead of paying taxes to distant far away places who claim t he nright to spend them for you (and by doing that claim simply base on the law of the strongest), simply refuse to pay taxes to a central authority in Luibljana, keep them in the regions where they get spend by local peop0le for local purpüoses, and leave it to trade interests by private businessmen to contact other, distant regions for trading ties. Then youz do nto need NO men in the middle at all - not in Lubljana, and not in Brussel. you rreemain masters of yoru fate, yorf reedom, your rpoerty, ynd your self-responsibility. And the paraistes in Lubljana and the ever groweing bureaucrcies there and in Brussel - will starve to death.

Serious, Betonov, your logicv with your example is serously flawed.

And consider this. Ifg you pay into a big pot, but take out more of it than you7 havwe put in, either somebody else has to comeposnate for your inadequate contribution, which is morally questionable, or growign debts are allowed to mount in that pot, which means you sink deeper and deeper minto probölpems, becasue making debts means to cinsume early what in the future is not avialable for cosnummation anymore.

If however, you pay in as much as you get out, the quesiton si why you even need to start this redistriubtion cycle in the first - if you do not get more than what you put in before?

This whole scheme si abotu alchemy: abotu the illusion that one can spend more than one can afford without penalty, that one can create monetarian value out of nothing.

And that is what has broguht the apper moneya regfime to where it is: into the process of collapsing. The explosion already has takn place, it cannot be taken back. It onyl happens in slow motion,. tus ngiving the impression of a frozen, static event not moving.

But that impression is terribly wrong.

"One cannot make the world richer by increasing the ammount of circulating currency."

With your example in you argment, your remind of a hamster in a hamster wheel. You have your legs runnign and action taking place - but you get nowhere.

Remive the men in the middle. Nobody needs them. Their excistence is opurely parasitic, and all the time created much more mess than good. And when they claim to repair the mess (they do not admit to be respmnsible for), they make even bigger mess. And then they say "See, you cannot live without oiur expertise, you need us to manage your (!) mess, who else can do it if not us? And so they raise their salaries, and increase bureaucracies, becasue they need more epxerts and gria in helpinmg to manage the mess, which becomes messier and messier all the time.

Thats what you vote them for. Maybe not by intention - but by effect.

And no, this is not what ancient Greek democracy has been about, by ancient greek standards this is called tyranny. Its monopolism, ochlocracy and oligarchy in unholy union.

Sinc edemocracy is oriogionally an elitist, feudal govenrment form, I do not want dmeictracy either. I want freedom. Either you have it and an act freely - or you have it not, then you get possessed and owned by somebody stronger than you who is claiming rights over you.

Think of it. Almost all major business monopolist who dominate the world market today, gained their monopolies by massive assistance and protection from their country's governments who supported them with according regulative tax legislation, protective measurements and where needed: trade wars and pently taxes on foreign goods. This was only possibole becasue people alow the state hierarchy to act as a monopolist itself: the worst and most powerful of all monopolists there are. Alreayd over a hunbdred years ago, the school of the socalled classical national economists - arch-capitalists, btw! - condemned both business and state monopolies and declared them the worst evil, and the worst danger to freedom and free trade.

Never forget this: the advanatge you think you get fromn EU payments to you, either have been stolen from you before, or they got sotlen from soebody else who now needs to pay YOUR bills. But you have no moral and natural claim that others must be up to your service. They are not your slaves. I bet you have the answer "But what about solidarity?" on your mind. Blackmailed or enforced solidarity, is no solidarity, but blackmailing, and force. It needs the other to be free for sure from force and blachm ailing and regulation, and deciding all by himself whether he wants to give oyu a sign or act of soldiarity, or not. He is free then to decide to do so - or to reject your call for help if he thinks you acted stupid.

If you live on other people's costs, you have no reason to be proud of it. You are free to work or for trying out ways of how to raise your income and then yklu can afford more. But nobody ever has any natural right that others have to fiance his wishes and esiores just becasue he has them.

Freedom means self-responsibility - not that the others are responsible for you. They are neither your nannies, nor your slaves.

Do not condemn capitalism. Condemn monopolism, both political and business monopolists, and the worst monopolist of all: the plundering, blackmailing nepostistic state syndicate and its ever growing claims for power and control, its ever growing bureaucracy and regulations, its ever growing abuse, plundering and stealing. Condemn the minting monopole of the state. Condemn the fractional reserve banking. In the end, all tax payments always have been blackmailing of protection money, enforced by the law of the strongest, founded by a small group claiming the right to plunder the others. And that scheme, gentlemen, means nothing else but serfdom and slavery.

[Respenus]

///Long text below, apologies if typos or poorly structured sentences managed to creep in///

As cliché as it may sound, from where I stand, both sides are right and both sides are wrong.

On one hand, those saying that the EU meddles in things it has no reason meddling in are in some cases right. There are many policies that appear forefront in the public eye that also cause the most resentment and opposition, not least because they were poorly constructed and even more poorly implemented.

Migration and monetary policy are at the forefront of the current public debate for a good reason. The Euro was created out of a need to prevent strong currency fluctuations, but as events have revealed, the North is no longer prepared to finance the South (either through outright transfers, or thanks to capital surplus flowing south via the banking system) and the South will not become protestant in its penny pinching, leaving both sides feeling angry and betrayed.

The migration question is already a more difficult one. Yes, the external borders were mismanaged and Merkel "Everyone's welcome" policy has caused a lot of harm to the European project and to Member States. On the other hand, you also cannot expect countries like Greece, Italy and Spain/France to be responsible for every single migrant from across the Mediterranean. This also opens the even more painful question of the free movement of labour inside the EU: are EU citizens to be allowed to freely move around seeking labour or nor? Taking the case of Poland, Polish workers in the UK/Ireland were able to push their home country's networth up with their remittances, while also adding at least 1% extra GDP growth to their host countries (as well as paying more taxes than they received in assistance).

The ECJ has in 2014 and 2015 passed some very important decisions that make it clear that EU legislation does not allow EU citizens to just pack up, move to another Member State and draw social benefits. You need to have a job or be realistically looking for one (the former is certain, for the latter I cannot remember the exact details). This only confirmed what was the case since the beginning free movement of workers was introduced, that is that you need to support yourself, either through a job or by having sufficient savings of your own (Member States can still demand that you open a bank account and deposit a certain amount of money if you are not employed there).

In case of Brexit, does the UK, which has always pushed for a liberal Internal Market despite the opposition from some states (cough France cough), now suddenly turn its back on one of its fundamental elements and what does it say about the country? That is one question that no-one is asking and an answer to which would sound eerily familiar considering the current English sentiment (I use English for a reason, as the Brexit movement is primarily situated in the "south").

Many of these points are mentioned above are the reason why so many feel exasperated with the current Brexit debate (as well as movements in other countries attempting to turn back the clock on integration). However, going back to the other side of the argument, I also understand why people are strongly in favour of the EU and why more common policies (at least in some areas), are supported.

Like Betonov, I know that without the EU, Slovenian citizens would be far worse off, both in the economic and governance sense. While the general populace shares a strong pro-environment position, I am doubtful that so many laws protecting the environment would have been passed without the EU. The same goes for consumer protection and health and safety. And let us not even go into the realm of politics, as civil society would have practically no influence on decision-making without EU rules on the subject (civil society in general is rather weak in Slovenia, so you can imagine how things would look like). Now consider other new Member States and you can see why so many still support the EU and integration, although for mostly economic reasons (which in itself is a problem when it comes to building a sense of common destiny, but that is a huge issue that I will not address here).

The issue of governance also includes the perennial "unelected officials" shtick. Besides leaving aside the fact that in no Member State are officials elected (more on that in the following paragraph), in many cases, EU officials are better at their job and more objective than anything we have here. Policies "by dictate from Brussels" may be a bureaucratic nightmare (I have firsthand experience with that), but Slovenian bureaucracy is even worse (also firsthand experience). Does that mean that the status quo should be left alone? Far from it! It should change, things should move towards less paperwork and fewer constraints from the government (especially considering the massive changes in production, consumption, communication and association brought about by ICT), but the first step in my opinion is that we should take action at the national level, rather than to constantly accuse "Brussels" for all our ills.

Now that I have taken the time to write this little tractate, allow me to fancy an explanation on EU officials. First of all, a great part of the people employed in EU institutions deals with one small, but rather important part of having such a large international organisation: translation. The other great part are people who do the same job as do those in your local municipalities, national ministries or some agency: they make certain that all the papers required by the laws made by elected representatives are properly filled and filed. They are not always the most effective as this, but if you look at the recruitment procedure for them (EPSO), you will find that the selection is far more demanding and meritocratic than what many Member States have for their own bureaucrats.

As for the other, more political offices, they are selected in the same way as those in Member States (as bigwig politician wanted to give up control). MEPs are elected the same way as other members of parliament in Western democracies are: direct, secret, free and fair elections. EU citizens are represented both on the personal level via their MEP (which in my experience are far more open to communication and proposals than national MPs, but that is again a Slovenian experience) and on a national-interest level by their government in the Council of the EU (legislative body) and the European Council (supposedly direction setting body). Some countries, like the Dutch exert strong control over their government's decision on the Council via a parliamentary committee, some allow their government more or less a free hand.

Coming to the big baddies, the Commission, it is proposed by national governments (which are supposedly the only legitimate democratic body in the "Eurosceptic" (let us accept this as a general term) narrative) and then elected by both the European Parliament (directly elected) and the Heads of State and Government (either directly or indirectly elected, depending on whether you have a Parliamentary or Presidential democracy). The Commission is fully answerable and responsible for its actions before the European Parliament, giving the latter the same type of control as any other body.

With all this in mind, I have to ask, who exactly are the unelected officials? Perhaps a better thing to complain about would be policy and decision making behind closed door or Member State representatives that do not always take into account the position of their country's citizenry, but that again, is just my opinion.

To end this long text on a positive proposal, I recommend that we kill the Euro, create a fortress Europe and focus on policies such as health&safety, consumer protection and the environment. I am certain these are policies that we can all get behind, right?

@Skybird, you will notice that my text in many parts agrees with the Austrian school position, even if I do not call it by its name. So while I deeply enjoy debating with you, please focus on the specific points, rather than an ideological debate.

[STEED]

For those voting to stay in the EU, David Cameron said three years ago the UK would do well if we left the EU.

That bit of info came off the BBC 24 Hour news Referendum debate 5-6pm today. It was said by some guy I forget his name and title who worked for Cameron.

[Betonov]

C'mon Respenus, that made too much sense :nope:

[Respenus]

C'mon Respenus, that made too much sense :nope:

I know, I like it when things make sense. Although that would explain why people usually consider me a buzzkill :)

[Betonov]

I know, I like it when things make sense. Although that would explain why people usually consider me a buzzkill :hmmm:

I hope you don't think of running for office, voters hate people that speak on their minds and not their emotions.

[Respenus]

I hope you don't think of running for office, voters hate people that speak on their minds and not their emotions.

How about people who make sense/speak their minds, but by using emotions?! :timeout:

Nah, don't worry, I would never get rubber stamped by the powers that be, so you will never see me in the public arena. Plus, if I did, I would have to stop role-playing Italy in our PoN game, as people would consider me even crazier than I already am :O:

[mapuc]

Today I have seen some of my FB-friends saying

If England decide to stay in EU I will forever take this as an election rigging

I don't have read anything from the other side-I'm convinced it is the other way round-If England leave it's an election rigging.

Markus

[STEED]

Today I have seen some of my FB-friends saying

If England decide to stay in EU I will forever take this as an election rigging

I don't have read anything from the other side-I'm convinced it is the other way round-If England leave it's an election rigging.

Markus

OK...CANCELED

RIGGED!

Can't win. :rotfl2:

[Catfish]

The EU has saved ten thousands of fugitives from prosecution and death, right. Against all naysayers i cannot see the EU break because of that anytime soon.

Where is the "crisis" in the EU? The EU has always been negotiating, fighting, and agreeing from different points of view. There are some people who finally have a chance to have their say on a public platform like facebook or the 'net, that has never existed before. "I have said it all before", "The end is near"
Yeah? Well i guess not.

It is of course the right time for nationalists to cry wolf and trying to shift their nation to the right. But countries like Hungary, Romania and Austria wanted that all the way, they just needed a (now welcomed) pretext.

The people who whine about all those immigrants (with maybe 0.something percent of idiots among all of them, giving the majority a bad name), are whining on a very high standard.
Has anyone been suffering, like losing his job, his car, his house, his future? REALLY?

I guess all this is not about the EU, it is about a diffuse but nevertheless existing fear of foreigners, and a good portion of nationalism.
One thing is sure, with this mindset mankind would never be able to advance. I just hope that the majority does not want to go backwards.


@Skybird
i do not condemn capitalism (whatever your essay has to do with the Eu and all that), just of all the EU is the paragon of international capitalism, apart from being an international cooperation founded to defend its participants against being swallowed by bigger hegemonies. Capitalism has always had an unstoppable trend to the building-up of monopolies.
As long as there are lots of small companies competing against each other, the "consumer" has an advantage. But soon some companies begin to lag behind, have not the financial background for month-long undercuts, get bankrupt and are being swallowed.
Lots of small companies trying to undercut each other and going bankrupt lead to less variety and more monopolies.

And what Mr. Mises et al. do not mention is that any currency and financial system is prone to inflation and an eventual downfall. Always.
How do you want to stop inflation in economies? Money will always lose its value, over time.
Every nation on earth gets into debt, overtime. This is system-immanent, capitalism as we know it cannot work otherwise. Which is why the banks can "generate" so much, out of nothing.
Have you ever thought about that Mises and this would-be-poet Ayn Rand are plain wrong?

[Skybird]

i do not condemn capitalism (whatever your essay has to do with the Eu and all that), just of all the EU is the paragon of international capitalism, apart from international cooperation founded to defend its participants against being swallowed by bigger hegemonies. Capitalism has always an unstoppable trend to the building-up of monopolies.

And life has an unstoppable drive towardsa age, disease, and death. But that cannot mean we should stop living right now in order to not help our dying, yes?!

Capitalists - real capitalists! - understand this, that monopoles prevent the free market from functioning as it shoudl (and wants). The capital then cannot freely work (and capital means more than just money, but includes human resources: knowledge, skill, opportunity in time and space as well, also natural resources). The classical school of national economy was adamant in condemning monopolism, may it be business, may it be political. in so-called primitive cultures, and amongst people sometimes who work as fishermen and farmers, it is understood that they must save the natural resources they live by, if they harvest more than can be replaced by nature, they kill their own basis of existence. Who is it who violates this basic principle, this basic understanding? Usually greedy big players, who have erected a monopole. And often the state protected them, distorted market conditions in heir favour, ran protectionistic policies to keep other natiosn away, or to mwin the symapotrhy of those who benefitted from its protectionism. "We save, we create jobs! " still is one of the most successfull battle cries in elections.

It shoudl be up to the people, the market participants, to prevent monopolies - by diversifying their busienss contacts and diversifying their trading contacts. But if people lack the understanding of certain simple basics of economic insight, becasue the state has the monopole for shcools and can prevent the teahcing of certain content while enforcing the teahcing of other content that it sees as more opportune for its power interest, then it is no wonder that people buy at Amazon all the time - and then cry crocodile tears for small book shops dying, and Amazon and only few others holding a de facto monopole. and so they get what they helped to get, and what they deserve to get. Another monopolist. Sometimes cionsumers however act wisely, in germanyx for exmaple Amazon failed to estalbish a huge monopole for ebook readers, like in almostr all other Wetrsenr countires: German decided that the Tholino aloiance with its nice device is the better chpoice, and that it helps to stop Amazon from gaining too huge domiance on the ebook market in Germany. Tholino today has I think a greater share than Amazon'S Kindle (in Germany). I have a Tholino myself, so I know that thing and I was motivated to learn about the background.


As long as their are lots of small companies competinmg against each other the "consumer" has an advantage. But soon some companies begin to lag behind, get bankrupt and are being swallowed.
Lots of small companies trying to undercut each other and going bankrupt lead to less variety and more monopolies.
If the state does not actively and fundamentally assist such big players in business (by that bribing the employees to vote for certain parties, for example), they will find it much harder to establish a monopole, becasue there will always appear new challenmgers with new ideas,m findign a niche, and advancing from there. It is when state regulation suffocates invention and state assistance helps too weak, non-competitive new contenders that the situation gets bad. Nothing is won if you build business structures on the shoulders of too bad business ideas, or incompetence. Survival of the fittest - clever peopelm with good ideas, most often will find their niche, if the state does not outbrake them. The question is if all business ideas by the newcomers really have what it takes to allow the founding of a flourishing new business. the monopoles they are up against, all too often would not have been able to form up if politicians and state government would not have actively helped them to become that strong. - In the end, the state shoudl stay out, and the customers shoudkl decide - and they shoulkd decide wisely. If they do not care if their decisions help to strengthen monopolists, then they do not deserve anythign better than nedeidng to live in a world with more and more of right such monopolism - with all the costly consequences of that. Its up to us. Do not wait for the state to freeing you fromt he burden of this your responsibility! He will mabsue the chance, if you leave it to the state - for his own power interests and desire to form his own - monopolies.


what Mr. Mises et al. do not mention is that any currency and financial system is prone to inflation and an eventual downfall. Always. How do you want to stop inflation in economies? Money will always lose its value, over time. Every nation on earth gets into debt, overtime. This is system-immanent, capitalism as we know it cannot work otherwise. Which is why the banks can "generate" so much, out of nothing.This tells me how little your really know about right this school - the only school in the field of economcis that has a fully formulated and fully functional theory of money, and theory of capital (which are two totally different things, btw). No other economic school has a healthier understanding of what money is by its very essence. Or better: what it should be, because I claim: we do live in a world that has no money - only currencies.

Currencies are arbitrary tokens that usually a state declares to be "money". . But real money is trading goods that have an intrinsic value that gets detmeirned by the free makret, in interaction of particpants on said market. These tradings goods keep their trading value even if the state and its currency collapse.

Currencies indeed suffer from inflation. From wnated inflation, that is, becasue in order to in flate them they have been created for by potlicians. They need to inflate it (devalue it) in order to mainbtain the unsustainable spending frenzies they need to run in order to bribe their voters. And so they inflate the amount of money, and as a result of that ongoing, intenional devaluing, prices climb. Climbing porices themsklevesa aqre not inflation, they could aloso go up if their is a shortage of goods. Increasing the ammount of currency tokens in circulation - that is inflation, and the groweing prices that comeonsate this devaluing are oinly a consequzence form that.

You see it here? To do so, it is inevitable that poltkicians secure for thenmsleves the minting monopole, so that they can literally redecue the ammount of silver in the silver coins to get more "slver coins", or today: give otu more unsustained credit and "print money" unlimitedly. This is the precondition for this farud to work: that potrkiians must not fear to ever run out of currency tokens.

Money, however, real money, like for example gold, is avialable only is limited quantity, their are natural barriers that porevent the creation of as much gold treausdres as potkiucans want to bribe voters with. In case of gold, this amount even is relativels tsable over extrenely long poweriods of time, ovr centuries, even millenia. This is one of the reasons why it is such a godo candiate fore serving in the role of money. You cannot inflate its amounts avaialble, devaluing it easily that way. You can do that - by forging bars and coins, reducing the gold content in them. This will not go unnoticed, however. People will test how mkjuchn gold there is in a forged gold coiung, and then correct the vlaue of said coing to the ammount the represents what the market pays for thgat amount of gold - the vlaue umber poriunte don the coin becomes meanignlkess then.

A nightmare for giovernments and plticians, and end of iflating "money" at will, and spending like crazy to buy votes!

You can easily understand, it can be easily seen why Keynes was so much liked and was immediately accepted when he appeared on the scene with his mumbo-jumbo of nonsense claims and alchemist theories. The FED, the ECB, and practically the whole finance business still follow him. Idiots, fools? True, but No. Considering the astronomical, the unimaginable scale of damages they cause and help to widen, they are the worst criminals alive on this planet. No war and no crisis, no civilizational up or down in modern times, can compare in negative effects and long-lasting consequences to the two biggest sins that these gangster still are obedient to: the establishign and maintaining fo the fractional reserve banking system, and the defending of the minting monopole for the state. Each of these trhings all alone already is lethal, but combined together they are more overkill than the Tzar bomb.

Politicians demanding a monopole for the state on creating and defining "money", should be shot on sight. Nothing does as much damage in the history on modern makind, than thjese two, nothing. Really, NOTHING. Not IS, not climate change, not Islam, not hunger, not terrorism, not some war here or there. Nothing.

Have you ever thought about that Mises and this would-be-poet Ayn Rand are plain wrong?Of course I have. I found that I could not prove this theory of that they are plain wrong, but that incredibly much speaks for that Mises got it very very right. If politicians would have listened to him instead to this imposter Keynes, we would not be where we are today. We would be much better off. WAY MUCH BETTER.

I would recommend you invest the time to really read Misis in full, before opening fire on some snippets only that you had picked up here and there, and have not linked to their contexts and have not fully understood. It is not always easy reading, I admit, it sometimes is old-fashined language, but it is worth it, he is one of the brightest burning minds of clearest reasonability I ever stumbled over in book form, and much more than just an economists: a social philospher and social critic, a "Universalgelehrter" and "Menschenfreund", a person who felt deeply troubled and responsible to try infleuncing things for the better (although he admitted late in his life that this hope was dissappointed and that he only was a biograph of history as it happened) , while always remaining modest and kind, a highly educated and intelligent man, and perfect gentleman. The more I learned about him, the more he climbed in my respect. A giant indeed. His obvious main work would be "Nationalökonomie" ("Human Action"), but that is a big book, a very big book, and it was a tour de force to read it, I admit, I must not do that again. I think "Liberalism" is the better choice if wanting to read only one and just one book by him, and it has a wider focus. Also, there are many readers in book form with collections, qurtes and essay selected by authors beign sympathetic to him. The old-fashioned term in German for such collections by one aiuhtgor that give an overview over all his work, would be a "Brevier", I just learned some days agao. :D

[Torplexed]

I don't have Skybird's talent for thesis, but here is my quick thumbnail impression of what drives the Brexit supporters.

50% xenophobia
20% traditional British euroscepticism
20% Imperial nostalgia
9% sovereignty concerns
1% Union flag don't mean Jack.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-countries-flags/european-union-flag.gif
http://orion-euproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/eu-flag1.jpg
http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-countries-flags/european-union-flag.gif

[Betonov]

I'd break that xenophobia down to 20% actuall xenophobia and 30% simple fear of uncontrolled imigration.

[Torplexed]

I'd break that xenophobia down to 20% actuall xenophobia and 30% simple fear of uncontrolled imigration.

So, basically 20% xenophobia and 30% Polish Plumbers.

If there were more Swedish plumbers on the loose this wouldn't be an issue. :O:

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Polska_Plumbing.jpg

[Betonov]

Polish plumber hatred falls into the xenophobia category. Even a hot Swedish plumber is not a Brit for them.
The 30% is the fear of the welfare leeches that might invade. Even I take a sharp right turn when it comes to those. We got enough of our own draining our social system I love so much, I really don't want lazy foreigners sucking it dry. Non lazy foreigners, don't have an issue.

[Respenus]

Non lazy foreigners, don't have an issue.

Which is why I am constantly baffled why Cameron is not screaming from the top of his lungs about recent ECJ decisions that make it clear that "lazy" foreigners do not have the right to stay indefinitely in other Member States if they cannot support themselves and have absolutely no right in getting welfare support if the only thing they do is sit on their arses.

Speaking of non-lazy foreigners, I recently met a Moldavian who had to work his way through the nightmarish Slovenian system just to keep his job and if every foreigner was as persistent and hardworking as him, we would be a bloody superpower.

---

Gareth Harding always produces solid analyses of the "State of the Union" and his latest article on the EUobserver is a must read for both sides of the EU debate. While it may appear overly gloomy to the pro-side or too lenient to the -exit side, it does make some good points and like myself, points out the need to take a step back and consider the whole integration project, or risk falling it apart completely.

Euroscepticism: The EU's new normal (https://euobserver.com/opinion/133747)

EU citizens have fallen out of love with the Union, a study suggests. The only way through the current malaise may be to dismantle some of the EU's pet projects - not least the euro itself.

[Betonov]

Speaking of non-lazy foreigners, I recently met a Moldavian who had to work his way through the nightmarish Slovenian system just to keep his job and if every foreigner was as persistent and hardworking as him, we would be a bloody superpower.

My boss is Moldavian. Was his name per chance Valeriu, or Petru (his brother) ??

We would be the second Switzerland at least if we'd stop with that left-right crap :/\\!!

[MGR1]

Which is why I am constantly baffled why Cameron is not screaming from the top of his lungs about recent ECJ decisions that make it clear that "lazy" foreigners do not have the right to stay indefinitely in other Member States if they cannot support themselves and have absolutely no right in getting welfare support if the only thing they do is sit on their arses.

It has been mentioned, several times in fact, but no-one's paid much attention to it.

Mike.

[Catfish]

Hello Jim,
wanted to answer directly earlier, but since the rant mode got the better of me..
I was not very conciliatory to say at least, but also it was not targeted at you or some people here, but rather at some F@ceb00k comments i had the displeasure to read.
Then being german and thus rude, impolite, undiplomatic a.s.o.

"Those who are against EU membership do so because they wish to be able to make their own laws and maintain control of their countries borders."
But England has kept its strict border controls and immigration numbers to its own liking, it always had a separate way, different from the EU, which can be traced back to long before Thatcher (anyone who travels to England got and gets a different treatment, in comparison to what this is like on the continent. The personnell is not impolite, but you have to answer some questions, and you wait, while your passsport and background is checked.)

"Immigration is an add on created by the mess mainland Europe currently finds itself in."
Again, you still have your special way and rules when it comes to immigration, which probably dates back to foreigners from your own colonies or later commonwealth, wanting to immigrate. I will not ask what those foreigners thought and think of England since the latter invaded them and ruled 75 percent of the world (you've got to cut those holocaust deniers some slack, after all they know exactly what they deny. In England the conquered colonies and their occupants' behaviour towards them is not even an issue).
So ruling other countries is ok, but granting some of those foreigners access to England is not.

But even if you let all this out, is it now so hard to help some ten thousand refugees against a population of 63,182,000 people in the UK, if it does not really touch your way of living?

And in this case it is refugees, a relatively small amount compared to the population, and some will return to their country when things have calmed down.

What mess is Europe in? You hear some polish right-wing leaders or Mr. Orban, or any right-wing politician from Hungary, Romania or Poland ranting against foreigners and what they are supposed to do, from violating women, to terror, and taking your jobs. The media love this of course, and spread it everywhere, just not the boring facts of most things being perfectly ok as they are.

"Who caused it or dare I say encouraged it are of minor significance in the wider scheme of things."
I think it depends on how far you are going back, speaking about who causing a situation in the Middle East. Because then i would not call all this insignificant at all.
But I take it you mean the EU, and its latest decisions. The EU allowing and encouraging refugees to enter its territory (or better not directly hinder them by force), is obviously a strictly humanitarian decision.


"Call it British mentality, stupidity or anything else you care to but we are what we are and want more than we are currently permitted to have."

Ain't that true for so much people(s) :03:

Yes "we" will of course have to accept the 'Brexit' referendum. It can certainly be repeated at any time the government sees fit.
But if the outcome is 51 to 49 percent for whatever decision, rigged or not, no one can be happy about such an outcome.

[Skybird]

Maybe there would be more trustworthiness of what politicians and the EU claim and say and promise, if they would not have shown so very damn often that words and promises, even laws and treaties mean nothing to them and that they opportunistically forget what they said yesterday and break laws and treaties on the first day the see opportune to do so.

That may be why people are shy to let them now create facts on the ground that later they not only cannot correct anymore, but that they even want to push beyond what they earlier had promised to accept in limitations.

Trust must be deserved. A caste of professional parasites that brake their own laws as they see fit, do not deserve trust. And if you legitimise them to speak in your name time and again, you are a fool. The EU brakes it sown treaties and laws day in, day out. national political parties do it, politicians and governments. The whole Euro in existence in a chain of frauds, lies, broken laws and broken treaties, until today - and the ECB adds new violations to the list all year long, weaseling around in a desperate attempt to be called out for it.

The stronger the EU grew, the more conflict between the people in Europe broke out. But we are told that if we restrict the EU's raise to even more centralism and powers, we would cause conflict by that, even a new world war...? Give me a break.

Forcing together what does not match, will bend and break things, and forcing people together who want to not be forced to live together, creates conflicts. One can preach as much ideology of any kind like a wizard's spell like one wants - but thats how it is. Every force generates a contrary force of at least equal power. Pressure creates counter-pressure. Push a dog into the corner and kick it, and it bites even if before it was a kind and friendly dog. Order people aroudn and tell them to do things they hate, and see them going off your flag.

So simple.

The Dalai Lama probably is quite unsuspicious rgearding oreachign hate and violence and disrespect - but even this guy some weeks ago told the EU and told germany that Germany shall not allow to become Islamic and that 'Europe has taken in much more migrants than it can digest and that this will have no positive consequences, and that Germany must install strict limits on migration. Usually, german media are hyped whenever this guy visits Germany and hold a speech on something. But this time all media were revealingly shy to report on him. He was behaving too politically incorrect. Maybe the Chinese have the better way to deal with him indeed.

[Jimbuna]

Hello Jim,
wanted to answer directly earlier, but since the rant mode got the better of me..
I was not very conciliatory to say at least, but also it was not targeted at you or some people here, but rather at some F@ceb00k comments i had the displeasure to read.
Then being german and thus rude, impolite, undiplomatic a.s.o.

"Those who are against EU membership do so because they wish to be able to make their own laws and maintain control of their countries borders."
But England has kept its strict border controls and immigration numbers to its own liking, it always had a separate way, different from the EU, which can be traced back to long before Thatcher (anyone who travels to England got and gets a different treatment, in comparison to what this is like on the continent. The personnell is not impolite, but you have to answer some questions, and you wait, while your passsport and background is checked.)

"Immigration is an add on created by the mess mainland Europe currently finds itself in."
Again, you still have your special way and rules when it comes to immigration, which probably dates back to foreigners from your own colonies or later commonwealth, wanting to immigrate. I will not ask what those foreigners thought and think of England since the latter invaded them and ruled 75 percent of the world (you've got to cut those holocaust deniers some slack, after all they know exactly what they deny. In England the conquered colonies and their occupants' behaviour towards them is not even an issue).
So ruling other countries is ok, but granting some of those foreigners access to England is not.

But even if you let all this out, is it now so hard to help some ten thousand refugees against a population of 63,182,000 people in the UK, if it does not really touch your way of living?

And in this case it is refugees, a relatively small amount compared to the population, and some will return to their country when things have calmed down.

What mess is Europe in? You hear some polish right-wing leaders or Mr. Orban, or any right-wing politician from Hungary, Romania or Poland ranting against foreigners and what they are supposed to do, from violating women, to terror, and taking your jobs. The media love this of course, and spread it everywhere, just not the boring facts of most things being perfectly ok as they are.

"Who caused it or dare I say encouraged it are of minor significance in the wider scheme of things."
I think it depends on how far you are going back, speaking about who causing a situation in the Middle East. Because then i would not call all this insignificant at all.
But I take it you mean the EU, and its latest decisions. The EU allowing and encouraging refugees to enter its territory (or better not directly hinder them by force), is obviously a strictly humanitarian decision.


"Call it British mentality, stupidity or anything else you care to but we are what we are and want more than we are currently permitted to have."

Ain't that true for so much people(s) :03:

Yes "we" will of course have to accept the 'Brexit' referendum. It can certainly be repeated at any time the government sees fit.
But if the outcome is 51 to 49 percent for whatever decision, rigged or not, no one can be happy about such an outcome.

Never took it as a personal attack or any other of the kind Catfish.

Speak your mind in whichever way makes you most comfortable, I'd certainly like to think that I do.

Name calling and insults are the line that none of us should ever cross, so I do believe all is well on the matter and certainly between you and I.

Politics , don't you just love it :03:

[STEED]

I see that two faced JC doing his bit to spread fear.

Two more weeks of this is two weeks too long for me. :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

I see that two faced JC doing his bit to spread fear.

Two more weeks of this is two weeks too long for me. :arrgh!:

Even when taking into consideration how hypocritical many of todays politicians are I certainly think JC's 'stance' (all of a sudden) on the EU, despite a couple of decades of vitriolic opposition by him in the past must make him the biggest hypocrite in Westminster right now.

I see the latest scare story is the one claiming peoples welfare benefits could well be cut if we leave.

No fear of them taxing the rich bankers and there disgracefully large bonuses then.

[STEED]

Even when taking into consideration how hypocritical many of todays politicians are I certainly think JC's 'stance' (all of a sudden) on the EU, despite a couple of decades of vitriolic opposition by him in the past must make him the biggest hypocrite in Westminster right now.

I see the latest scare story is the one claiming peoples welfare benefits could well be cut if we leave.

No fear of them taxing the rich bankers and there disgracefully large bonuses then.

I agree 100%


https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGCMQ/i-always-have-a-good-laugh/image.gif?w=500&c=1

[Hawk66]

The EU has many weaknesses and should be reformed but maybe the voters in the U.K. should also think about this: Was there any better time in Europe compared to the last 50 years ?

[Jimbuna]

I agree 100%


https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGCMQ/i-always-have-a-good-laugh/image.gif?w=500&c=1

http://i.imgur.com/CRNhhrM.jpg

[STEED]

The EU has many weaknesses and should be reformed

Never going to happen, that House of Cards is going to crash and I rather the UK out of the EU before that happens.

[Skybird]

What a Brexit woudl mean for EU-drunk Germany.

Its in English.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germany-has-much-to-lose-if-britain-leaves-a-1097029.html#spLeserKommentare

What many foreigners -and even many Germans! - maybe do not know is that Germany is the first country in Europe whose politcal parties have added the forming of a European superstate and handing over own national sovereignty to it, to its national constitution and declared it the goal of its policy. National self-deconstruction and rejecting of own identity is state goal of German national and international politics, written down black on white. The according articles 23 and 24 of the Basic Law were added after reunification.

The restructuring of the federal structure of Germany, as the German Basic Law also demands for the time after ending the split of Germany, has been actively refused to be obey by all political parties and federal state leaders until today, with even the most dubious and hilarious claism and foul excuses. They were not willing to give up the powers and prestigious jobs the current structure equips them with. Breaching the constitution, is the term to be used here. But breaching treaties and laws is nothign new. The EU and the EURO states do it all day long, whenever it is opportune.

[MGR1]

Well, according to the polls Brexit is now in the lead.

Are we going to get a "Vow" from the pro-Remain camp, just like in the Scottish IndyRef? Or are they just going to settle for "doing" BoJo?:hmmm:

As an aside, apparently 9 out of 10 Scottish fishermen support Brexit:

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1356963-nine-in-ten-fishermen-will-back-brexit-survey-suggests/

Not surprising. The Tories threw the UK wide fishing industry to the wolves when they helped the UK sign up to the EEC in the 70's. Ironically, the fishing communities in the North East of Scotland were staunch Unionist/Conservative until then. The Conservatives effectively handed one of their core Scottish areas to the SNP on a platter.

One thing I do find interesting is the seeming reversal of opinion of the EU in Scotland and Northern Ireland compared with the 1975 vote. Back then, both areas were the most Eurosceptic, now they're the most Europhile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_ref erendum,_1975

Mike.

[STEED]

Polls can be manipulated just like in the last general election, right Crosby.

When push comes to shove I fear most of the country will vote to remain in.

[Jimbuna]

The last general election truly demonstrated just how farcical poll predictions can be on occasion so I'll be casting my two votes and simply await the outcome.

[Respenus]

Actually, polls are far more accurate when it comes to general representation of the population such as in proportional election systems or in a country-wide referendum. As such, current public opinion pulls are more likely to represent the actual opinion of the British people than during the general elections.

[STEED]

The last general election truly demonstrated just how farcical poll predictions can be on occasion so I'll be casting my two votes and simply await the outcome.

If the stay in win jim, you and I along with everyone else who voted out can say when that House of Cards the EU falls we told you so so live with it.

[STEED]

What many foreigners -and even many Germans! - maybe do not know is that Germany is the first country in Europe whose politcal parties have added the forming of a European superstate and handing over own national sovereignty to it, to its national constitution and declared it the goal of its policy.

A step towards a Super States of Europe? :hmmm:

If so the EU has said this is laughable, which to me how can I trust what the EU comments on.

[Oberon]

Speaking of manipulation, a consequence of the years of negative media coverage of the EU:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

[STEED]

Speaking of manipulation, a consequence of the years of negative media coverage of the EU:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

Nothing new to me, I remember a poll question "Where does meat come from" and a staggering 70% odd had no idea it came from farm animals! :haha:

Priceless, one of the best laughs I ever had and still do when I recall that gem. :har:

[Reece]

I remember a poll question "Where does meat come from" and a staggering 70% odd had no idea it came from farm animals!:88)
They should have asked them where they thought meat came from!!:yep:

[Eichhörnchen]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36509931

And still people refer to the State Pension as 'pensioner benefits'. The State Pension IS NOT A BENEFIT, it is a paid-for ENTITLEMENT... a pension!

[STEED]

:88)
They should have asked them where they thought meat came from!!:yep:

People in most part live in their own private world in a box.

And now for that great scene from NETWORK..

I'm mad as Hell and I'm not going to take this anymore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM

[Reece]

http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5871869+_99f33530f5d4cfe76b70bd39d1d70ac0.jpg

[Jimbuna]

I notice the latest threat is pensions. How convenient the very people who are reckoned most likely to vote now get their serving of the 'fear factor'.

I hope Davey boy will start with his own and those of all the other leaches in Westminster first.

It also looks like the extra burdon on the welfare state would far exceed the savings made in cutting pensions.

Of course, I should imagine any tangible threat to the above would automatically make the proposer and their party as unelectable as that of JC and his circus are currently.

Could well be a political future for you yet STEED.

[August]

http://static.infowars.com/politicalsidebarimage/abandonship_large.jpg

[Catfish]

^ lol :)

[STEED]

I notice the latest threat is pensions. How convenient the very people who are reckoned most likely to vote now get their serving of the 'fear factor'.

I hope Davey boy will start with his own and those of all the other leaches in Westminster first.

It also looks like the extra burdon on the welfare state would far exceed the savings made in cutting pensions.

Of course, I should imagine any tangible threat to the above would automatically make the proposer and their party as unelectable as that of JC and his circus are currently.

Could well be a political future for you yet STEED.

That Toff Boy will stop at nothing which goes to show what a total B'stard he is. :shifty:

Coming in 2020 The Steed Party. :)

Now Cameron blackmails pensioners. Project Fear has become Project Frightened

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/06/12/now-cameron-blackmails-pensioners-project-fear-has-become-projec/

[Skybird]

LOL

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGF1X/project-fear/image.jpg?w=639&c=1

[mako88sb]

Just seen this video with Patrick Stewart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA

[Respenus]

I do not know how much attention this will get in the British media, but here are Tusk's latest comments (and please remember, at this moment, he seems like the most level-headed and realistic EU politician, even going against the grain by saying powers should be returned to Member States):

Tusk: Brexit talks could take seven years (https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/133795)

Tusk told German newspaper Bild that while the exit has to be negotiated in two years, agreeing to a new deal on the relations which would have to be approved by all the 27 governments and the European Parliament, could take up to five years more.

The former Polish prime minister warned that even then it is not a done deal.The thing is, he is not scaremongering here, he is being deadly realistic. Negotiations with the US have been going on for three years now with no end in sight and for a deal that falls far below what the internal market has set up. The same for the deal with Canada, that will finally be signed in Autumn after 7 years (5 for negotiations, 2 for translation) and which will then still need to be ratified. The Swiss also needed over 5 years of negotiations to set up their bilateral deals with the EU and these were all deals done in good faith.

I do not wish for this to sound like I am scaring anyone into voting "Remain"; I maintain the position that any and every state has to right to decide whether it wishes to cooperate with other countries and under what conditions. What I would like to see is some well informed debate and it has to be said that the Leave campaign has been grossly underestimating how long (and how much effort) it takes for such deals to be agreed to and you can be certain that certain countries will demand concessions that will leave you paying as much as now, but without any say in creating the rules.

Here is a Der Spiegel International article on the topic (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/brexit-britain-and-the-switzerland-and-norway-models-a-1096952.html)

The pro-Brexit camp is pointing to Switzerland and Norway as models for how Britain could take advantage of the common European market without being an EU member. Experts say those prospects are a "fantasy."Of course, you can always tell everyone else to "bugger off", but I am doubtful even the most fervent "Brexiteer" has that in mind.

---

In the interest of full diclosure, here is another part of Tusk's interview

Tusk and Juncker: Brexit could be 'end of West' (https://euobserver.com/political/133808)

In an interview with Germany's Bild newspaper published on Monday (13 June), the council president Donald Tusk said that a British exit from the EU would have "long term consequences that nobody can foresee".

"Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction not only of the EU but also of the whole Western political civilisation," he said, adding that he was speaking "as an historian".

[Jimbuna]

A French Admiral giving his viewpoint/opinion...

SIR – France shares with the United Kingdom the distinction of being the only European power with global reach. Politically, as countries, we also both share a rare willingness to deploy brave and professional armed forces for the wider good in conditions of uncertainty and risk.

Viewed dispassionately from Paris, the scaremongering that we have seen the British people subjected to makes no sense. Britain will remain a major force after Brexit, a military, security and economic power that its neighbours will want to cooperate with on close and friendly terms.

We believe that Britain, like France, has an important role to play in the world. It will not be diminished by leaving the EU, but will act as a beacon for those across Europe who see the nation-state as the cornerstone of democracy and well-being.

Instead, a Leave vote will apply screeching brakes to the push for integration of the armed forces of the EU’s member states, and the otherwise inevitable and dangerous development of a “common defence” as the treaties predict.

With a vote for Brexit, de Gaulle’s far-seeing view of Britain will have been vindicated. But Churchill’s too.

Vice Admiral Michel Debray
Rear Admiral Claude Gaucherand
Paris

https://www.rt.com/uk/346495-eu-army-brexit-french/

[Catfish]

A French Admiral giving his viewpoint/opinion...
...
https://www.rt.com/uk/346495-eu-army-brexit-french/

I have the impression that this admiral has no idea what he is talking about. :hmmm:
Let alone what DeGaulle stood for, or Churchill.



edit: must have been blind, it's from Russia Today. I wonder what interest Russia could have, to ... :)

[STEED]

I am now going say what a load of hypocrites around my way with their Labour stay in billboards. :har:

[Jimbuna]

I am now going say what a load of hypocrites around my way with their Labour stay in billboards. :har:

Labour have been hypocritical on most issues since that mad man took over.

[Eichhörnchen]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3641824/Don-t-fools-George-Chancellor-plotting-punishment-Budget-threat-add-2p-income-tax-increase-death-duty-booze-fuel-costs.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Hang on a minute... won't all the foreign workers be stumping up for this?

[Oberon]

Well, if we do leave his chances of getting the leadership are down the toilet so what has he got to lose? If we stay, he doesn't need to do anything with the budget aside from the usual austerity, and Bojo and company lose ground on the race to replace Dave, and if we leave then he might as well wreck things for Boris before Dave is overthrown. :O:

[Eichhörnchen]

http://i.imgur.com/kAzwr7K.jpg?1

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2411541&postcount=39

Then the MOTHS will.

The latest threat from Europe: the Brexitmoth...

[STEED]

Cough...

You are all forgetting about the stalking horse..Theresa May

http://www.conservativehome.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Theresa-May-14-04-151.png

I think she's been rather clever in letting Boris and George make buffoons out of themselves over this referendum. I think she may be in with a chance for the leadership.

[Jimbuna]

Well, if we do leave his chances of getting the leadership are down the toilet so what has he got to lose? If we stay, he doesn't need to do anything with the budget aside from the usual austerity, and Bojo and company lose ground on the race to replace Dave, and if we leave then he might as well wreck things for Boris before Dave is overthrown. :O:

There could well be a lot of truth in that :yep:

Cough...

You are all forgetting about the stalking horse..Theresa May

http://www.conservativehome.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Theresa-May-14-04-151.png

I think she's been rather clever in letting Boris and George make buffoons out of themselves over this referendum. I think she may be in with a chance for the leadership.

'Cough' indeed but she is certainly no Mrs Thatcher.

[STEED]

'Cough' indeed but she is certainly no Mrs Thatcher.

Thatcher 2 would send BossMark over the edge, just as well she is not. :03:

Days away from the vote and the threats keep on coming..

George Osborne says he will have to slash public spending and increase taxes in an emergency Budget to tackle a £30bn "black hole" if the UK votes to leave the European Union.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

The EU is a bloody Black Hole you Moron, the euro fatcrats are living it up. DailyMail/Express did articles about this yesterday and the source of the info came from the EU.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/679460/EU-officials-spending-cash-Leave-campaigners-expose-bureaucrats-expenses

[Jimbuna]

If the vote goes the way of Brexit I should imagine Osborne and co to blame or justify everything they do on said decision.

[STEED]

If the vote goes the way of Brexit I should imagine Osborne and co to blame or justify everything they do on said decision.

Bound too..:03:

[Hawk66]

I usually don't participate in political discussions here but for me it's quite astonishing what kind of irrational hate is built up here against the EU. People - as always in history - need a bogeyman.

More or less all economical experts clearly have stated that an exit harms the EU and even more the UK.

More and more people in Europe seem to be dreaming about living in a second swiss state. The reality check will come ... China just waits until Europe has destroyed itself and then picking out or better buying what remains.

Maybe the lesson, which was learnt after two world wars seems to be forgotten...

BTW: If the exit fans achieve their goal, what is the next bogeyman?

[Oberon]

Well, it'll make a change from blaming all the ills of the world on the Labour government.

Meanwhile, and I'm not sure if this should go here or in naval news, but there was a titanic clash on the waters of the Thames this afternoon.

https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/rtx2gc1s.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=1600

Sadly the Belfast wasn't involved. :nope:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck_RdceWsAAHAxa.jpg:large

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/hi-america-british-politics-went-completely-mad-today?utm_term=.nabQaV4md#.xiP9BVvnb

And finally, an excellent picture:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck_Ii0-WkAA2S3H.jpg:large

[Oberon]

BTW: If the exit fans achieve their goal, what is the next bogeyman?

We'll probably stick with Migrants and Muslims for a while...then maybe the Russians. The French will probably make the list at some point, they usually do. :hmmm:

[Eichhörnchen]

http://i.imgur.com/sV85ijJ.jpg

[Oberon]

Is that Nigel Farage on his battle boat going to fight the insectoid invaders?

[Catfish]

We'll probably stick with Migrants and Muslims for a while...then maybe the Russians. The French will probably make the list at some point, they usually do. :hmmm:

:rotfl2:
Someone has to be the scapegoat :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Sadly the Belfast wasn't involved. :nope:



Mores the pity :)

[STEED]

A radio presenter pointed out Geldof is a hypercrit supporting the stay in the EU. The EU imposses large tarifs on African farmers to protect EU farmers, Seems old Bob needs to think about his actions. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

He's a multi-millionaire so he can afford to have an opinion, especially if it is one supporting his rich mates.

[STEED]

He's a multi-millionaire so he can afford to have an opinion, especially if it is one supporting his rich mates.

Are...Yes I was forggetting that.:damn:

[Oberon]

Compare and contrast:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClEh0n-WEAEQ-Mf.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClEh0nqWgAEqpc0.jpg

[STEED]

Sorry Nigel but they are only doing it because they can. A better poster would be showing the guilty politician's who created this mess in Europe and the UK.

[Catfish]

Sorry Nigel but they are only doing it because they can. A better poster would be showing the guilty politician's who created this mess in Europe and the UK.

Exactly.
But .. who is responsible for the mess in the Middle East? :hmmm:

[BossMark]

In respect to MP Jo Cox who was brutally murdered yesterday, I request that this thread be suspended just as the campaigning as been for the referendum.

[Oberon]

I concur, I don't think it needs to be locked or anything, we're all adults here, so a hold on discussion about the referendum for the time being might be best, after all I think we've covered most bases by now anyway...just like the campaigners. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Rgr that :yep:

[STEED]

EU referendum campaigns suspended until Sunday after Jo Cox attack
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36553442

[Von Due]

FU: Joined today, already knows several members and their posting history (?), goes after Jimbuna and some members, has FU as a handle.

You wouldn't happen to have a different account here now, would you? One you can't use at the moment, perhaps or am I wrong here?

[Sailor Steve]

You are not wrong. We are dealing with it as quickly as we can. Please use the 'Report Post' button rather than give these people the satisfaction of acknowledgement.

[STEED]

The campaign has re-started and here is a silly statement from over in France.

Leaving the European Union would make the UK as significant as Guernsey, France's economy minister has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36567469

What a daft statement. :har:

[STEED]

When will the EU referendum result be declared?

Too be honest I don't really care as I will find out in my own time. Some friends are staying up for a maybe verdict in the early hours of the morning but I rather be asleep, better turn off the mobile phone in case one of those jokers rings me. :know:

[Oberon]

I'll probably stay up for it, I'm not working the next day so I can afford to.

Hopefully the campaigning before the referendum will be a bit less aggressive now after the tragic events of the other day.

[Jimbuna]

I'll probably stay up for it, I'm not working the next day so I can afford to.



I hope to as well :yep:

[Torplexed]

The UK kinda has the whole world holding it's breath on this election.

Now we know how it feels when the world watches us try to elect a president. :)

[STEED]

I see Nigel got a hammering over that poster.

I agree lets hope it all cools down now on the final few days.

[mapuc]

Someone came up with the idea of "postpone" this thread due to the assassin of the young English politicians.

I thought it was a great idea, I decided to wait until today.

Whatever your standpoint is in this referendum I wish you good luck on Thursday

Markus

[MGR1]

I hope both sides have a long, hard, think about how they conduct their campaigns from now until Thursday. Referendums can do far more harm than good if, as in this case, they are conducted in the wrong way.

Regardless of which way the vote goes, the UK will be a weaker, more divided nation - socially, politically and geographically.:down:

Mike.

[STEED]

the UK will be a weaker, more divided nation - socially, politically and geographically.



RED ALERT...The Scots smell Blood! :o

All English folks operation build a new very high brick wall is ago. :arrgh!:

[Oberon]

Like the last two worked. :O: Just ask the Ninth Legion! :O::O:

I think if we want to turn the clock back, then let's do it properly, if they want us to be scared of migrants then let's go back to the Great Migration after the Fall of Rome! :yep:

I claim Bretwalda. :O:

[STEED]

Plan-B

http://www.wgrogan.net/graphics/boudicca.jpg

http://honeygrail.com/img/london-boudica-statue.jpg

[Wizmaub]

The campaign has re-started and here is a silly statement from over in France.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36567469

What a daft statement. :har:

I'm French, and trust me, french people are really stupid.
télécharger album kaaris (http://leakdmusic.com)

[STEED]

I'm French, and trust me, french people are really stupid.

Welcome on board. :up:

[ABBAFAN]

Just a thought, and possibly controversial, should campaigning have been suspended? I know somebody died but is that more important than debating the fate of a nation of 60 millions? Just wondering what people think. On the matter of the slaying in question, I think it's a terrible thing to have happened and really sullies the whole referendum debate. Marrs it even. Saying that, I'm not altogether convinced campaigning should have stopped.

[Von Due]

As an outsider, I think the decision to pause the debate was a decent decision. The pause was just a brief one and they have resumed the campaigns. The campaigns did not suffer much and they got to show some decency after the sad event.

[mapuc]

Just a thought, and possibly controversial, should campaigning have been suspended? I know somebody died but is that more important than debating the fate of a nation of 60 millions? Just wondering what people think. On the matter of the slaying in question, I think it's a terrible thing to have happened and really sullies the whole referendum debate. Marrs it even. Saying that, I'm not altogether convinced campaigning should have stopped.

From what I understand, they did this to honour her.

Markus

[Oberon]

As an outsider, I think the decision to pause the debate was a decent decision. The pause was just a brief one and they have resumed the campaigns. The campaigns did not suffer much and they got to show some decency after the sad event.

Fully agree, and honestly, by now not much is going to sway peoples minds short of a major bombshell which would have been deployed by now if it was going to be. I think that further major campaigning is just going to scrape the bottom of the bottom of the barrel in regards to taste and sensibility.

[Reece]

Only 3 days left!! Seems odd that they planned the vote to be on a week day.:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

I think most people in the UK have now made up their minds which way they are going to vote and I eagerly await the outcome.

Welcome to SubSim Wizmaub :sunny: (in before the welcome bot).

[AndyJWest]

Only 3 days left!! Seems odd that they planned the vote to be on a week day.:hmmm:

Nothing odd about holding a referendum on the same day of the week that elections are usually held.

[Reece]

OK, we always have ours on weekends!!:yep:

[Aktungbby]

Wizmaub!:Kaleun_Salute:

[STEED]

Folks you do know this is a consideration vote for Cameron. If we vote to leave Cameron does not have to say good bye to the EU as he has the final say on the matter.

[Reece]

How unfortunate!!:doh:

[Oberon]

Folks you do know this is a consideration vote for Cameron. If we vote to leave Cameron does not have to say good bye to the EU as he has the final say on the matter.

If the vote to leave wins and Cameron backs out, he's signing his own resignation letter essentially. There'll be a vote of no-confidence quicker than you could say 'Back-bench rebellion'.

[Jimbuna]

If the vote to leave wins and Cameron backs out, he's signing his own resignation letter essentially. There'll be a vote of no-confidence quicker than you could say 'Back-bench rebellion'.

Rgr that :yep:

[MGR1]

I'm getting a bit fed up with Sturgeon continuously banging on about "IndyRef 2" in the event of a Brexit.

Just tell your hardliners to shut up or naff off, woman! I think a split on both SNP and Tory ranks is what's needed.

Mike.

[JU_88]

I think most people in the UK have now made up their minds which way they are going to vote.

They have? lucky them, I haven't - :wah:
I was originally just going to vote for the campaign that annoyed me the least, and that didn't work out too well as they are both bursting at the seams with feces.
I have listened to it all, tried to see some sense though the rhetoric and hysteria. and I'm not much clearer on the matter.

Ill just be glad when its over.
But even then, I've never felt more disenfranchised in my life, lol.
politically I feel like I'm just sick to death of everyone else's tired old narrative.

I watched the responses of the London mayor election, Daily mail readers clutching their pearls declaring the end is nigh and that we can expect sharia law by the end of the year unless we draw up a final solution or something, while Guardian readers are virtue signalling from the roof tops and bathing in the smug middle class warm diarrhea they got just because they elected a minority.
Both sides very clearly focusing on not who he is, but what.

But yes, this division is everywhere in the west, the U.S and Europe too, IMO its basically the rise of a frightening far right in response to an over expanded and increasingly frightening progressive left. (they snowball off each other so to speak)

[STEED]

They have? lucky them, I haven't - :wah:
I was originally just going to vote for the campaign that annoyed me the least, and that didn't work out too well as they are both bursting at the seams with feces.

I suggest you write on your ballot paper your disgust at the whole campaign as I have told a couple of friends like yourself they too just have no idea. I made my mind up years ago and watching both camps has only reinforced my belief that British politics is a bloody joke and we need to start from scratch again.

[HunterICX]

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Brexit (HBO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

[STEED]

Britain's 'In' campaign wins more support, buoys markets

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-idUKKCN0Z60O7

I have always felt the remain vote will win the day by 60-40.

opinion polls showing the "Remain" camp gaining ground buoyed shares and sterling three days ahead of the referendum.

Rubbish..Casino trading as normal.

[Betonov]

I have this distinct feeling that half the brexit votes will be more agaisnt Cameron than against EU.

But that's like my opinion man.

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGP23/smile/image.gif?w=400&c=1

[Betonov]

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Brexit (HBO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8


:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

http://i.imgur.com/J1RKTAp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pzXFjiF.jpg

[Catfish]

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Brexit (HBO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

Hit and sunk :O:

[Mittelwaechter]

We will see a tight 50.5 to 49.5 in favour of the EU, just because no one is allowed to leave the happy zone. Not even Greece!

The EU is no union of or for the people, it is a union of and for the big business. And this business is in charge and cares for the necessary conditions, by controlling the media and the politicians - and consequently the people. In this referendum by contolling the results. No doubt about it.

Remember the people of France, the Netherlands and later Ireland were asked about Maastricht - and they voted against? What happened? The rest of the Europeans weren't asked at all and a "YES to Europe" was celebrated. The people have no say in our democracies, it is just a big show event of make believe. Money rules the world! The big business is in charge and orders the general conditions.

The British' only left big business is financial business of the City of London. They are the European center of finance. Do you really believe, they seek to become the center of the British finance? 10% of the current cake of 500 mio European citizens dealing money with the world? Swop the last remaining imperial sceptre of relevance over to Frankfurt, Germany? Becoming as significant as Guernsey? ;) Maybe Belgium?

I don't think so.

[Betonov]

http://i.imgur.com/swXCIoa.png

[Jimbuna]

http://i.imgur.com/Ha6bH6F.png

[Platapus]

They have? lucky them, I haven't - :wah:
I was originally just going to vote for the campaign that annoyed me the least, and that didn't work out too well as they are both bursting at the seams with feces.
I have listened to it all, tried to see some sense though the rhetoric and hysteria. and I'm not much clearer on the matter.

Ill just be glad when its over.
But even then, I've never felt more disenfranchised in my life, lol.
politically I feel like I'm just sick to death of everyone else's tired old narrative.



Looks like this could have been written by an American.

Britain and the US: Two countries united by a common frustration.

I hope yours turns out better than ours. At least you have a real choice. :yep:

All we have is Tweedledee and Tweedledum; each just a little bit worse than the other. :nope:

[Skybird]

There is some truth in this, however:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/bye_bye_ts/13761332/2-format10.jpg
"Bye-bye, we sail on alone by ourselves!!"

From: Der Tagesspiegel, Berlin

[Skybird]

We will see a tight 50.5 to 49.5 in favour of the EU, just because no one is allowed to leave the happy zone. Not even Greece!

The EU is no union of or for the people, it is a union of and for the big business. And this business is in charge and cares for the necessary conditions, by controlling the media and the politicians - and consequently the people.

EU is a union of monopolists: both career politicians with a completly feudal self-understanding, and the monopolised big players in business and banking that these politicians helped to create in the first. All too often it has been protecitonaism and state-regulation that formed business monoipolists. Not to mention: the banking sector. All too many regulations serve the purpose only of keeping alive what is rotten and terminally ill, and destroys freedom and leads the people into serfdom: planned economies always suck and lead into dicatorship. ALWAYS. Because only brute force and state violence keeps them floating for some miserable years more.

Monopolism is the big evil of our time, not "capitalism" per se (most people do not know what that correctly is anyway, and think its about big banking only - its not).

[mapuc]

Danish News some hours ago

A lead for the remain in Eu 54 %

Leave EU 46 %

If I remember the number correctly

Markus

[Oberon]

I wonder what odds all these polls gave at the last election... :hmmm:

[Catfish]

It will be 73 to 65 percent, and all are winners.
If not, next election on friday..

- You could have a referendum every two weeks, after all EU laws and feelings about it change, especially when the »Sun« is at it.
- Or the prime minister could have a circuit breaker at his office, and depending on the public opinion he could switch »in« and »out« on a daily basis.

[Catfish]

Sorry, a bit OT here - maybe another thread for this?

Monopolism is the big evil of our time, not "capitalism" per se (most people do not know what that correctly is anyway, and think its about big banking only - its not).

Well, England went the banker's way, and voluntarily.
OK if we leave the banks outside for now, how does this free capitalism work, that does not sooner or later necessarily lead to monopolies?
Like every economical system leads to inflation, and finally to bankruptcy of a nation because of debts. Because this is what always has happened, and will. Everything else is wishful thinking, like communism working in reality.

Which rule do you want to introduce to prevent monopolies in a free capitalism?

[Mittelwaechter]

EU is a union of monopolists: both career politicians with a completly feudal self-understanding, and the monopolised big players in business and banking that these politicians helped to create in the first. All too often it has been protecitonaism and state-regulation that formed business monoipolists. Not to mention: the banking sector. All too many regulations serve the purpose only of keeping alive what is rotten and terminally ill, and destroys freedom and leads the people into serfdom: planned economies always suck and lead into dicatorship. ALWAYS. Because only brute force and state violence keeps them floating for some miserable years more.

Monopolism is the big evil of our time, not "capitalism" per se (most people do not know what that correctly is anyway, and think its about big banking only - its not).

Monopolism is the ultimate goal of capitalism. All wealth, all money, all means, all property concentrated into one winner. Last man standing!

Control over politicians and media are the tools to get the laws, regulations and social conditions desired to win all possible property. It is the genuine job of politicians (rulership imposers) and journalists (media priests), to control the perception of the community (and therefore its reality and motivation) in the name and interest of the capitalist asocial predator(s) (CAPs).

They themselves stay off the public stage, to avoid a possible disempowerment by the people realizing what's really going on.

Imagine a plantation owner (the master, the CAP) and his 200 slaves (the people). They are picking cotton, to fund his life style, his credits, his property and their daily bread.
Before they revolt and retake (republic) the former common means of production - the plantation the CAP has privatised (privare lat. to rob) - he grants them a system of power: a so called democracy. They shall elect 10 foremen who shall rule the plantation in their interest. That's what he tells them via his media priests: by the people elected politicians shall decide the fate of the community. They are only good democrats, if they vote for a party of foreman of their choice.

The foremen don't have to pick cotton anymore, get a celebrity state and have dinner with the master at his table. There he tells them what to do, what to communicate, what laws and regulations to install, to ensure the future of the plantation. The free people shall have jobs, working on the plantation to earn their daily bread - on the property of the CAP, to give him the freedom to take the tythe, to get legally paid by the people without picking cotton himself, to accumulate means, ~20 times more than necessary for a living (on the level of a cotton picker), to invest them for interest to accumulate even more means.
Therefore they shall be granted freedom and (human) rights in a regulated society. Those freedom and rights are liberties and privileges in reality. Both can be granted by the system, as they can be denied.
Control over the property, the people, their perception, their reality and their motivation is the key for the CAP to monopolize all property, all wealth and keep the community supportive. CAPitalism!

The control over the perception of the people is traditionally performed by clever crooks (clerics), who were the counterweight of the strongest thug ruling the clan. The shaman was the second ruler, necessary to control the people successfully. The strong one told them what to do, the clever one told them, why they wanted to do it. It's the general concept of reign, performed since the beginning of mankind...

...since the beginning of you!
Remember Daddy and Mommy? Daddy told you to go to bed - per authority - while Mommy was pushing you gently, explaining you would otherwise oversleep and miss the little squirrel you have watched today in the morning. If your rulers are d'accord, you do what you have been told. You may whine, but you obey. If they start to discuss on the order, you see your chance and start to hope for a change.

Clan leader and shaman, chief and medicine man, major of the palast and temple priest, major of the village and parson, earl and bishop, king and cardinal, emporer and pope - the duets of sovereignty.
The best have incorporated both functions to rule without any possible dispute: pharaohs, god kings...
The CAPs stay off the stage and have representatives to be shown in public for both functions - as a puffer to never be disempowered again.
(or this time even worse: consequently expropriated and disempowered!<- that's what has to be done!)
Politicians as daddy's and media priests as mommy's. Those who tell us what to do and those who tell us why we want to do it.

With the printing press and the slowly growing ability of the people to read, to use books and papers to improve common knowledge and communication, the clerics started to defend their traditional supremacy over knowledge and interpretation, over the perception of the people, their view of the world. The devine rules were challenged by some open minded - no, some misled, deviant, miscreant, heretics, diabolics, pied pipers - some weirdos, nerds, outsiders, extremists, conspiracy theorists... You may already see were this is going.

The clerics started a manhunt - inquisition, torture, trials to renunciate, Malleus Maleficarum (the hammer against witches) - while the nobility expanded their dominion over the rest of the world. Brutal colonisation, killing all resistance to take resources and labor (slaves), justified by the clerics. The heathens had to be christianized, to care for their afterlife. Let's bring freedom, human rights and democracy - by force if necesary. It's only for their best.

Finally - after the 30 years war, the nobility was skint and expropriated the clerics - to refill the empty state coffer. But the priests kept their power to creep into the heads of the people. Every sunday they joined in the churches to be indoctrinated by the clerics' world view. But with the peoples ability to read, the media was able to creep into their heads on a daily basis. The influence of the crooks on the people was forced back further and further since then.

The media was able to care for a new view on the world. Their religion prays to Mammon - because those with money contol the media and want the people to follow this concept. Five times a day praying eastward is as good as five times a day being informed by the morning newspapers, the morning TV, the radio in the car, the major evening news, the following polit talk on all this important economic data no one understands.
Stock exchange and inflation? Regulations of the IMF and the ECB? A low gold price right now? Negative interest and negative growth?
Fill-and-kill-orders, FOREX analysis, fixed income arbitrage and fonds-boutiques, futures margin, feed back trading, fibonacci-sequence - just some mumbo in f - like tuck! This is just like the clerics' latin: you don't have to understand it, you simply have to believe!

The new printing press is the internet. Communication is improved, knowledge and information is shared. The people have learned much faster how to use it and the media loses the sovereignty over information and interpretation. Watch what happens! The distrust into media is growing rapidly, just like it has been in the middle ages with the clerics.

The nobility was cornered next by the enlighted people. They disempowered them and installed the reign of the people. That's how the story goes.
But the nobility managed to keep their privatised property, their wealth. Property and heritage shall be granted! Disempowered but still rich, they used their money to get the peoples politicians under control, to regain the power. We should already know how this is done, because it is the plantation owner controling the foremen. The US installed this system successfully right before the French Revolution.
Controling the politicians and running the media is the new pharaohs, god kings, CAPs! There is no unwanted, uncontrolled dispute. The media controls the politicians? True - just not in favor of the people.

Controling the media enables you to control the expressions and terms allowed to use, the thoughts possible to formulate, the definition of concepts or the prevention of it.
Try to find a proper, undisputed definition for fascism! For torture! Happiness! Freedom! Terror? Wealth? Poverty?
A lack of available definition opens the door to free interpretation, just as the non-criticizable practice of it.

Fascim is the merger of corporate power and state power - the logical consequence of the disempowered nobility, the wealthy, trying to rule again. The old days they did it in persona, today they control politicians.
Under the leadership of the politicians we realize fascism immediately. The media will do its best to adjust our perception. This fascism has to be fought by the fascism under the leadership of the corporations.
Who rules? The foremen or the master?
The applied inhumane ideology is absolutly coherent: wars over resources and political systems, enforced, cheap labor, control of the coordinated media, secret police and jurisdiction, torture, stigmatized religions, expectation of conformity, exceptionalism, racist minds, the fight against internal resistance - resulting in restrictions of liberties in exchange for security, propaganda...

We are at the edge of a new era. The situation is similar to the enlightenment. And the CAPs try to make the next consequent step in capitalism: after getting property and heritage granted by the state, they want to have sales and profit granted now. TTIP is the negotiations of the corporations to milk the tax payers both sides of the atlantic - with TTP to do it both sides of the pacific.
The politicians will have to install these new laws in favour of the CAPs, the controlled media is telling us, why it is exactly what we want.

By now you should have understood the concept.

I hope you enjoyed this little journey through the ages. Maybe you've got some inspiration?
History has to be understood and understood correctly, to ensure we understand the present.
Having the media take a ... into our head constantly and creating our present reality, is a pretty bad idea to ensure, the present and the future to be in our and our childrens favour.
Voting for (any time replaceable) politicians has no other background than to legitimate the system. Our vote is irrelevant, our participation in the act itself is the peoples legitimation for the CAPs' to run the system.

Edit: holy ... - some orthographic flaws tend to appear only after re-reading a posted essay several times...
I hope most are eliminated now.

[Jimbuna]

It will all be decided this Thursday and I'm predicting a win for the 'Remain' campaign.

[STEED]

Its all over people, Vote Remain has won by a whopping 90% thanks to the Becks.


David and Victoria Beckham announce they will vote In, saying they believe their children's future is better as part of the EU.

http://news.sky.com/story/1715060/becks-backs-in-star-puts-cross-in-remain-box

Most people worship the Becks.:roll::yawn:

[Catfish]

...

^ three posts north: By god or the flying spaghetti monster, did you type this just so, right away. Well done..
The usual diversion already happening.

[Skybird]

"Diejenigen, die sich mit dem Phänomen des Großkonzerns unter der Rubrik "Konzentration der ökonomischen Macht" beschäftigen, erkennen nicht, daß das zahlende Publikum mit der wirtschaftlichen Macht versehen ist, von deren Gunst das Wohlergehen der Frabrikanten abhängt." - L. v. Mises: "Theorie und Geschichte", 1957 (English edition), 2014 (German edition)

My translation:

"Those who examine the phenomenon of huge corporations by the premisse of "amassing of economic power", do not see that the paying audience has the economic authority on which the interest and wellbeing of producers depends." Mises, Theory and History, 1957


You cannot fight monopolism by demanding the biggest and meaniest monopolist of all - the state, the party - to regulate monopolism. You put the fox in control of the hen house only. And he will grow big and fat that way.

Its the ordinary people who decide their fate. And if they let parties talk in their name, politicians leading them into serfdom, if they voluntarily surrender their civil liberties and since-birth-given freedom, if they decide with their wallets for this and not for that (for whatever their reasons are), then they do not deserve any better than what they get from this, for they have asked for it. Its Karma, the inevitable causal link between cause and effect.

You want to fight monopolism? Start with altering your own every-day decisions, and stop being loyal to and legitimizing the political fraudsters who make their income and living by putting themselves above you.

If you want to know where blind obedience to political and religious authority lead to, study the history of the Easter Island - there they demonstrated it in all shining glory. It ended with cannibalism and total destinction. An excellent 50 pages summary can be found in chapter two of Jared Diamond's excellent book "Collapse".

If you hold a Facebook account, do not complain about Zuckerberg erecting a monopole and winning a fortune. If you do not mind for your data being collected by Google, do not complain for Google winning a monopole. If you favour cashless payment for you consider that to be cool or "more comfortable", do not complain if the state makes you more defenceless to its plundering and can steal from you even more easily: the paying audience has the economic authority on which the interest and wellbeing of producers depends.

"Der Unternehmer kann nur gedeihen, wenn er das ausführt, was die Verbraucher verlangen." L.v. Mises: Liberalismus, 1927 (The entrepreneur can flourish only when it performs what consumers demand.)

Be wise what you demand, therefore, and chose wisely what offers you accept.

[Mittelwaechter]

The people have to consume the goods they produce on and with the property of the CAPs.

While initially free, they could produce all goods of the common hill 100% for themselves and exchange them with others.

The CAP privatizing the hill by force and having granted the robbery by the state later, forces the people to give him a part of their former 100%. He takes the tythe.
The people have to fund his wealth, because the produced goods are not their property any longer. They have to buy them with the money the CAP don't take from them.

The CAP tells them to be paid for falling a tree, rolling it downhill, floating it to the village, selling it for 100 credits and come back with the money uphill to the CAP.

But he only takes the 100 credits and pays the employee a part, gives a part to the community, pays his costs for axe and seedlings - and keeps the rest for himself. The more employees he employs, the more of them provide him with wealth he didn't have to work for himself. They pay him!

The share of the employee has to be invested by himself into the job he does for the CAP. You have to live from something, and if everything is under control of the CAPs, you have to work for them and pay them the goods you produce yourself.

The people have the choice to buy from one CAP or from the other, but they have to buy from one!
They have the choice to work for one CAP or the other, but they have to work for one . They have to fund the wealth of a CAP - no matter which one.

The CAPs compete over the property and means by themselves. Who gets more payment - collects more wealth, employs more people wins the monopole.

Your quote is a typical distraction of an expert, to create a misleading reality for the reader.

The monopole of the state is no monopole! It is a multipole - by all state members. They own the communal hill and can use it ...

[Skybird]

Education: fully state control, over here even private schools need to obey state's curriculae
Pensions: full state control
health policy: full state control.
security, police: full state control
jurisdiction and legislation: state control
protecton money black mailing: full state control
Infrastructure: full state control.
Decision over war and peace, enslaving of conscripts: full state control.

But nothing the "state" owns has not been stolen from free people earlier. The state owns nothing that is not loot from plunder, justified with the law of the strongest: the law of the jungle, that is.

The only one who can form the free deicison to contirbute to this or that cause - is me. Nobody else can decide that in my place, or make claims on me and over my life, founded only on the argument that I exist. I am no slave and nobody's property, and demands can only be directed at me where I owe something to the other, did not pay a debt, did not fulfill a treaty that I voluntarily and in free willingness signed before. To direct such unjustifiable claims at me means that the other claims that I am his property, his slave.

Well, I am not.

When all own evertyhing, nobody will feel responsible for anything, for if like in communism nobody is allowed to own anything as private property, everbyody is ownd by all others in fact. That is why socialist regimes always economically collapse, and necessarily must do so. The whole ideology has one big major mistake: it is romantically dreaming of another verison of the homo superior, the new man, but totally ignores several fudnamental, essential truths about the nature of man as he is: with that man cares more for stuff he owns than for stuff that somebody else owns, being one of the most important ones.

We are no born altruists - altruism even amongst animals gets learned to be a weighing of pros and cons when calculating what gives the individual the greater net benefit. Altruism - all too often is a form of egoism, a manipulation of the other to gain own goals.

When wellfare becomes an industry, it developes the self-interest of a business branch, it then is no more about helping others, but maintaining itself, its jobs, its state budgets, its pltical influence, the power of its fat cats, and always growing itself. Which is one of if not the most important driving factors behind the insane debt-making policies that cripple the world today, namely in the West. And still more state-control gets demanded, more state's social responsibilities are demanded, and politicians are all too kind to provide them, for a little price, of course: give up your self-responsibility, give up your freedom and individuality, and surrender to and pay fore the collective. Be the cattle in industrial livestock farming, getting milked for the fruits of your lifetime'S labour, hand them over to your owners, they know better than you what you want, what you need and what you should do.

Differ between monopolism and capitalism. Sometimes the criticism voiced today is right. But it always aims at the wrong target, and wants to make the cause of the crisis the recipe by which to heal it. That is like extinguishing fire by spilling more fuel into it. It has never worked, it doe s not work, and it will never work. When for ideological reasons you want to force people to act against their very own nature, you either destroy them, or yoo turn them hostile to you sooner or later. reality does not bow knees to ideology. Never. Reality is.

There is a reason why the main work of analysing the basic principles of national economics by Mises is not entitled "National Economics", like its later German translation indeed is entitled, but in English in its original first publication has the title "Human Action". Its the Human being that is in the focus, the individual that wishes and craves, desires, decides, and acts. And no planned economy and no political regulator can ever know what people will or will not want, and for what reasons, nor can you arbitrarily reeducate people at will to be what they are not, or to want what they do not want (very popular form of state terror in socialist and communist regimes, but also present in today's political correctness mass movement) - the only thing that balances these uncountable diversities of sometimes contradicting, sometimes cooperating interests, is the free market. Planned economies are for religious dogmatists wanting to command people. They want power, and they are not any different than those economic monopolists - my they bee a KP or a corportation - that want to bypass the basic principles of capitalism and preventing free market. They are the same - and you can see that today, already since decades, by the way how the West turned more and more socialist and erodes freedom and self-responsiblity from within.

[Mittelwaechter]

The free market is controlled by the CAPs. It isn't free, it is a regulated, controlled market, just not by the state, in favour of the community, but by individuals and corporations, that accumulate the profit of the market - in their favour. It is massively supported with common money and totally deformed. The CAPs force the politicians to allocate taxmoney or additional charges on products and services they want to sell.

Remember: the politicians are under control of the corporations. No matter who we vote for. All politicians do their job, if they want to keep it.

The production of milk is performed by an enslaved species, to be fed and milked by machines. Easy job for the CAP. Too many CAPs want to do it and the price for milk drops due to the surplus. They call for taxmoney to grant their profits and they get it. A free market?
The automobile corporations enforce a tax present to sell new cars in exchange for used ones.
The pharmacists have granted prizes, no competition at all.
The pharma industry - controlling the media with advertising - want to sell useless Tamiflu to the taxpayer? 50 million useless doses have been bought, just to rot.
The rules for energy savings in the construction sector are in favour of the companies, pilfering private money for some poisenous insulation to be removed in 20 years again, leaving a destroyed veneer, to be rapaired with pilfered money again. The energy expert telling the house owners to do it, is payed with taxmoney he himself can order for his consulting.
The copyright owners enforce an additional charge for possible private copies on every data storage media, but call me a rob-copy-performer, if I want to copy something for me privately?
The public media gets an enforced, illegal special charge out of my pocket. The corporations collecting the money for sports events are private? The news agencies?
By the way: have a look at Reuters! Thompson Reuters to be clear. What are they engaged in?

The hidden ones are even better: a German arms manufacturer want to sell 250 Leopard tanks to the German taxpayer, but this is not to explain to the taxpayer. So the Arms CAP travels to Greece, with a filled suitcase of Fakelaki and finds the responsible politician for weapons import. Greece doesn't have the money to pay for the tanks, but the CAP organizes a credit from the Deutsche Bank. All three actors know, Greece will never ever serve the credit, but that is not necessary. The Deutsche Bank CAP enforces the German taxpayer to stand for the Greece credit via EU politicians. The loaned credit tranches for Greece are directly transfered to the Deutsche Bank. Now the Greek taxpayer ows money to the German taxpayer, the investors of the arms manufacturers and of Deutsche Bank have their money + interest. Greece will have to sell the last remaining profitable airports to Germany, but they have 250 new tanks and no gasoline to move them out of the harbour. The "free market" is tucking with somebody here! And the media makes you point at the lazy Greek people. Politicians doing favours for the corporations...

Education under state control? They have to care for the right amount of possible economy workers, to keep the competition up and the surplus of qualified/unqualified personnel to be hired or not. We need more engineers? Adapt the difficulty of the tests and you have just the right competition for jobs to keep the salary low. Controlling the job market is key!
Pensions? For civil servants. The public pension is subject to the available actual money paid into the pension system. Controlling the jobmarket and the salaries you generate the demand for additional, private assurances. Guess you have learned, it is absolutely necessary to save for the furure, as the rent isn't granted and private provision is advised. 50% of the employees are endangered to poverty I learned.
Health policy? Prizes of medicine are artificially high. The old head ache medicine has no valid patentation any more? Remove it from the market and sell the same drug + vitamine C with a new patent and you're back in business. Doctors and pharmacists are privileged people, like journalists, police, priests, lawyers. Have a dental cleansing and pay a private 50 to compensate for the little money your public health care assurance will pay to the poor dentist. He may need a third Porsche for his daughter.
Security/Police? Ever heared of private-public-patnership? Private patrol cops in the city, the subway, the malls? Sport events?
The real police cares for the state of possession. The CAPs have it and they keep it. The public pays for this nice service.
The lawyers? In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread. Le Lys Rouge/The Red Lily (Anatole France). No comment!
Protection money black mailing? ?? Please explain.
Infrastructure? You mean taxmoney to be allocated to private corporations for building roads and electric wires? Sold public telephone and postal services? Regional public transport? Public paid water supply or Deutsche Bahn to be privatized?
Decision over war? With 80% of the German public against the Afghanistan Rodeo you want me to tell what? Arms have to be sold to governments in need of them. Money flows.
Draft service? These arms have to be manned. The monopolist needs more resources? Over there boys! Shoot!

The state is under control of the politicians. And who controls them? CAPs - polititians - state is the flow of order. The flow of money is reversed.

Freedom requires anarchy! It is simply the lack of rulership. It's what the CAPs enjoy: complete self-control. Self-control is necessary to grant a free life for you and your neighbours. Don't give in to the desire (Thou shalt not covet!) to take the personal property of your next and all can live in peace. If you don't act this way, there will be war. What do our rulers do?

Bernie Ecclestone payed a fee to stay free! The collected money pays the best lawyer, to keep you out of prison.
There are two sorts of criminals - those who don't care for legality and take what they want - and those who care for legality to take what they want. The latter are entitled to keep it, according to the rules we vote for in our democracies or follow in our (christian) religion.

You shall be free my friend, but if you want to have company you have to respect their freedom too. So you can't be in complete control over your fate other than living on a lonley island. You have to provide for the community and the community will provide for you. But it has to happen in fair conditions, without a small part of the community entitled to raise above the rest.

Nature shows how large collectives of mammals shall be organized: not like a wolf pack, with constant struggle over the booty even at the top etage.
They form a herd and share what's available. Socialism is natural for peaceful mammals. They have a leader, but this individual shares the fate of the others. Finding the green grass will provide luxury for all. Finding only meager pasture make them share the pain likewise. No accumulation of grass on the back of some sherpas, to be reserved for the upper herd members.

Be a free sheep, or a dominated wolf. Equal amongst sharing and caring friends - or a reckless predator amongst competitors, willing to kill you for the bone you've got hold of.

Peaceful or bellicose? Your choice.

[Oberon]

Thought of STEED when I read this article -

"Brexit is a fake revolt - working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite

Some valid points there, and one of the things that has put me off Brexit is the inability to trust the prominant political members of the campaign that the figures they give in savings are either a) accurate or b) will be used to fix all the things they claim it will.

http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/574d598d1200002e00894d82.png

All those promises adding up to about a £100bn worth of spending commitments...can anyone really see a Conservative government, especially this Conservative government or even a Boris lead Conservative government actually spending this amount of money?
Not a chance.

Meanwhile in lighter news:
http://newsthump.com/2016/06/21/cats-would-vote-to-leave-eu-and-then-refuse-to-go-out/

[Skybird]

So you can't be in complete control over your fate other than living on a lonley island. You have to provide for the community and the community will provide for you.
Its just that I insist on that the decision what i want the community to provide me with, shall be not the community's - but mine. And rest assured, I use to pay the demanded price for what I take and order. I refuse to pay for what I did not order and do not agree with. That is what free market is about: that I decide whether I want something or not, and whether I accept the price or not. Free negotiation, free agreement, free decision for or against a deal. The state - annihilates all that freedom - for the most bigot and inhumane of arguments.

But you, the community, claim the right to decide for me what I should accept from the community, and that I should accept and pay for things that I did not order and did not accept. And that is where it all turns into coercion. Which is a punishable crime in German law, btw.

Nobody has claim for me just because he wants to make use of my skill, resources, working force, resources, whatever. My existence is not for the sake of somebody else I am not related to, the meaning of my life is not to please the other. Accepting that a majority may claim the right to command the minority, is enforcement of slavery, nothing else, founded on the law of the strongest.

What I voluntarily chose to get engaged in, is my own private business and free decision. But I am in no way obliged to do it. As a matter of fact I was engaged in free lets call it wellfare or social work and counseling for years, and got not paid, for I could afford to do it for free, and at that time I wanted to do it. When I did not want to do it any longer, I stopped doing it - and I never felt even the smallest of doubts, for the others never have had any claim for me in the firs, anyway.

Tell me, when you get stopped by three grim men at the dark street corner, and two hold you tight and the third one takes your money, papers, watch and valuable items, what do you report to the police later on? That you participated in a democratic process of formation of a majority coalition and that as a good democrat you obey the result of 3:1 that you should hand over your property to the winner of the election - or do you report that you got assaulted and robbed, in other words that you became the victim of a crime?

Democracy may be if two wolves and a lamb vote on what's up for lunch. But it still is freedom if the lamb arms itself up to the teeth and contests the vote.

"I swear, by my Life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

The older I got, the more choosey I became regarding picking "friends". Most friends I once believed to be friends, later showed to be false friends - and so to be no friends at all. People wanting me to serve them have as little chance that I clal them my friends, as everybody else with a servile mind would have. I cannot stand slave-holders nor slaves servile enough to want to be slaves and calling that misleadingly as altruism or love for man.

Stand up to me, understand reciprocity, deal quit pro quo with me - or get the hell out of my way. Servile state-believers I have no use for anymore. They have done already enough damage to me and my family, and still they want to suck more of our life blood.
----

The rest of what you set up is a bit too confused for my taste, so I leave it here.

[Betonov]

http://i.imgur.com/md01Fy1.png

[STEED]

Thought of STEED when I read this article -

"Brexit is a fake revolt - working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite



If Leave wins we should not stop there, we should clean up Parliament and get rid of these career politicians for a start. But as we all knew from day one remain will win the day.

The only winners will be the Elite in or out.

[Skybird]

Truth to be told, the Brits have left the EU already decades ago. Tomorrow they decide whether they want to re-enter, or not.

:O:

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGR9Y/thursday-will-be-the-day-boris-packs-his-bags-to-flee-the-uk/image.jpg?w=731&c=1

[Reece]

I bet STEED would like to put his boots/hooves where it hurts!!:yep:

http://buzzsharer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/horse-kicking-man.jpg (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjtwOTs1rvNAhUMmZQKHa0sC_kQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbuzzsharer.com%2F2015%2F06%2F12-reasons-why-you-should-never-ride-a-horse%2F&psig=AFQjCNHiJf2PrbOhwR755jeu0gPz8j4ZtQ&ust=1466686370705682)

[Mittelwaechter]

Its just that I insist on that the decision what i want the community to provide me with, shall be not the community's - but mine. And rest assured, I use to pay the demanded price for what I take and order. I refuse to pay for what I did not order and do not agree with. That is what free market is about: that I decide whether I want something or not, and whether I accept the price or not. Free negotiation, free agreement, free decision for or against a deal. The state - annihilates all that freedom - for the most bigot and inhumane of arguments.

But you, the community, claim the right to decide for me what I should accept from the community, and that I should accept and pay for things that I did not order and did not accept. And that is where it all turns into coercion. Which is a punishable crime in German law, btw.

You seem to fear you have to live in prison. Here is your trousers, these are your shoes. You live in this cell. No cigarettes!
Mashed potatoes and beans for dinner...

Imagine we get rid of the parasites, the crimminals that rob us constantly, feed on us, that lie to us systematically, manipulate us and take only.

We all do what we do now, but work less, because the CAPs - those who rob us a part of the work - are history.
There is no lack of choice, no forced consume, no need - just like now.

Even better!
The world can live in peace, because the criminals, dependent on growth and consequently war, are gone.
We don't have to fight for resources. We are peaceful and share what we have.

We are family.



Nobody has claim for me just because he wants to make use of my skill, resources, working force, resources, whatever. My existence is not for the sake of somebody else I am not related to, the meaning of my life is not to please the other. Accepting that a majority may claim the right to command the minority, is enforcement of slavery, nothing else, founded on the law of the strongest.


That's exactly what we have right now. The CAPs run this system. The state - the community, the majority is the victim of this system. The CAP is your slave master.
If you have to work for someone, he has the claim on you - orders you what to do and feeds on your work. He is the parasite.
One guy enslaves 250 people and lives on their back. 200 rich guys invest their surplus in the CAP Bank and live on the interest of 20 000.

What I voluntarily chose to get engaged in, is my own private business and free decision. But I am in no way obliged to do it. As a matter of fact I was engaged in free lets call it wellfare or social work and counseling for years, and got not paid, for I could afford to do it for free, and at that time I wanted to do it. When I did not want to do it any longer, I stopped doing it - and I never felt even the smallest of doubts, for the others never have had any claim for me in the firs, anyway.

As long as you pay your fair tribute to the community - provide for it with taxes and charges - you shall have your way. Do what you like. You have no master, no CAP to work for. There is just the community - the state you are living in - that wants to have a compensation for the services it provides: infrastructure, education, safety, cultural offerings...

Tell me, when you get stopped by three grim men at the dark street corner, and two hold you tight and the third one takes your money, papers, watch and valuable items, what do you report to the police later on? That you participated in a democratic process of formation of a majority coalition and that as a good democrat you obey the result of 3:1 that you should hand over your property to the winner of the election - or do you report that you got assaulted and robbed, in other words that you became the victim of a crime?

The criminals taking from the little Joe? That is crime - like capitalism.
The "democracy" we are used to, is a tool of the CAPs to keep us supportive and them in command. It's not worth a dime.

True democracy would enable the community to decide over its fate. That's not what you have to eat, what you shall consume or what you have to do.
We could decide what to do with the taxmoney in our common interest, not in the interest of the CAPs.

Democracy may be if two wolves and a lamb vote on what's up for lunch. But it still is freedom if the lamb arms itself up to the teeth and contests the vote.

Funny, pseudo-true and misleading construct.

In reality we see two lambs and one wolf. The wolf runs the democracy simulation and makes the lambs believe they have a say over the menue. They are armed in the US, but usually unarmed in the rest of the western world.

It is absolutely no freedom you are talking about, because freedom requires anarchy - the lack of rulership. The wolf rules and he manipulates the reality of the lambs.
The wolf provides liberty - the controlled form of freedom under his control - to grant or deny it. He can take your freedom and your privileges (pseudo-rights) anytime.

You may think your guns will prevent this, but you are victim to the wolfs mindcuffs. He controls your perception, your reality and your motivation. He makes you believe, his denial of "your freedom" is necesary - for your safety maybe.

Don't follow this - Funny! Oh, so true! Well said! - mind traps.
Sapere aude - dare to think for yourself!


"I swear, by my Life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.?"


Great! Accepted.


The older I got, the more choosey I became regarding picking "friends". Most friends I once believed to be friends, later showed to be false friends - and so to be no friends at all. People wanting me to serve them have as little chance that I clal them my friends, as everybody else with a servile mind would have. I cannot stand slave-holders nor slaves servile enough to want to be slaves and calling that misleadingly as altruism or love for man.

Stand up to me, understand reciprocity, deal quit pro quo with me - or get the hell out of my way. Servile state-believers I have no use for anymore. They have done already enough damage to me and my family, and still they want to suck more of our life blood.

Who is your enemy? Your family and friends (the community, the state) or the crimminals (the rulers, the CAPs) feeding on it?

You seem to be frustrated by your friends, your life situation. Your community may not have been/not be able to care for you, because it is busy caring for the clamours of the CAPs?

Friendship requires equallity and available time, unmisguided thoughts and can not be paid.

Our community is forced by the CAPs, their education, their manipulation of our perception, to act against all the requirements above.
Fighting against all for resources, a better life, more money, doesn't make us equal but competitive.
Longer working hours, with still some work to do at home, three jobs to stay clear - the available amount of time for you and your friends is constantly shrinking.
Constant, repititive, subversive indoctrination of all kind, to divide the society, to grant the undisputed rulership works perfectly.
Happiness is connected with money in our minds, becaue we are constantly said so. To show our happiness to our friends, we may believe, we have to have a certain state of wealth to provide, because on a lower level happiness is believed to be impossible.


We have to get things right!

[Skybird]

^ I think the GDR has risen again. At least I heard all that before there.

[Jimbuna]

Truth to be told, the Brits have left the EU already decades ago. Tomorrow they decide whether they want to re-enter, or not.

:O:

Some would say there is a good portion of reasoned truth in that.

[STEED]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGRJP/brexit-faces-the-last-day/image.jpg?w=400&c=1

[Dan D]

I am just reading this on faz online. British political scientist Ben Worthy points out that from a legal point of view the referendum is not binding to the Parliament. So the Parliament could still decide to keep Britain in the EU despite a decision by the British voters for leaving it. True, Cameron said he would respect the voters will, but he will end up as fish food anyway no matter what the referendum turns out and second, such decisions are made by the Parliament and not the Government and so Cameron can promise all he wants, this is not binding for the Parliament.

[August]

Owww!, look at the other guy smiling about it. :haha:

I bet STEED would like to put his boots/hooves where it hurts!!:yep:

http://buzzsharer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/horse-kicking-man.jpg (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjtwOTs1rvNAhUMmZQKHa0sC_kQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbuzzsharer.com%2F2015%2F06%2F12-reasons-why-you-should-never-ride-a-horse%2F&psig=AFQjCNHiJf2PrbOhwR755jeu0gPz8j4ZtQ&ust=1466686370705682)

[Reece]

Owww!, look at the other guy smiling about it. :haha:
Yeh, could that be STEED with his trusty steed?:D

[Torplexed]

Finally. Just a few more hours to go. This referendum was starting to resemble a US presidential race.

http://i.imgur.com/v70iAti.jpg

[Catfish]

Whatever the outcome, "Boris" will win and Cameron will lose.

They have been in Eaton together, and have always been rivals. Cameron is not entirely pro-EU, and Boris is not against it. More of a power struggle than about content.
But isn't it alway so, in politics.

[Reece]

Whatever the outcome, "Boris" will win and Cameron will lose.
I certainly hope so!!:yep:

[STEED]

Well I done my bit and business was brisk, if I was a ice cream seller I would set up my van outside. Hot muggy weather here and a cold ice cream and a cold drink would go down well.

[Skybird]

With my sympathy is for Brexit, my realistic expectation for the result is Bremain. However, what will it mean for British society and politics if the result is not very clear, say: 60:40 or more? And nobody expects such a clear result, most expect something around 51:49, 52:48. Talking of a hair's width.

That is a classical problem with these majority votings. Remember that even a 55:45 in essence means this: that in a group of 20 people, they are split in two groups 11:9. A decisive difference looks different.

So what you most likely get with today's result, no matter which side wins or loses, in principle does not go beyond a mathematical resolution. An academic anecdote, so to speak.

What you got with that in real world politics and society, however, is an equally divided society.

Whatever the result, the Britons will have to live with it, in good and bad.

[Jimbuna]

My families four votes have been cast and I'm off to an evening T20 cricket match tomorrow meaning I can have a lie in.

Looks like I'll be staying up into the early hours to see how matters progress.

[STEED]

Big remain votes will be Scotland, Ireland, Wales and city votes like London. Brexit was doomed from the start but I still wanted to inform Cameron I want out.



OK all outers see you next month at the revolution meeting where we over throw the government and get out the EU. :shifty: :03: :)

BTW: Jim is chairing the meeting so just a word of warning only low fat diet snacks will be available. :03: :haha:

[Jimbuna]

BTW: Jim is chairing the meeting so just a word of warning only low fat diet snacks will be available. :03: :haha:

Actually, I've lost 5.4 kilo in a little over a month so you can now refer to me as Skinny Jimmy :smug:

[STEED]

Actually, I've lost 5.4 kilo in a little over a month so you can now refer to me as Skinny Jimmy :smug:

Change to the snacks...Meat is back on the menu and beer too. :)

[BossMark]

Change to the snacks...Meat is back on the menu and beer too. :)
Did someone mention beer :D well if the out vote wins them me and the girlfriend will be going out for a few on Friday or Saturday :yeah:

[STEED]

Did someone mention beer :D well if the out vote wins them me and the girlfriend will be going out for a few on Friday or Saturday :yeah:

Vote out will loose so go to Plan-B Beers from the supermarket and hubba hubba time. :shifty: :03:

[Mittelwaechter]

How comes I can't vote the Brits out?

And don't tell me: "because you lost the bloody war!". The other Eeyou's aren't asked either.

[Eichhörnchen]

:har: Harr harr! :up:

[STEED]

And the results is in...REMAIN HAS WON.

The Pound has just got up in value.


Right then on that note we can all clear to bed for some sleep.

[Oberon]

http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/independence-day-2-sequel-jeff-goldblum-interview.gif

[STEED]

News coming in..

Remain camp are getting drunk celebrating a great victory and the exit camp are getting drunk to drown their dashed hopes.

[Oberon]

As if a Leave vote would have changed anything in the British government for the better anyway... :haha: Seriously guys, if anything it would have made the Tories even worse, more cuts, more austerity, more dismantling of the NHS.
Immigration wouldn't have changed because we'd need to accept the free flow of workers in order to remain in the common market, which we need to since we'd be screwed outside of it. There wouldn't be any Australian style points system, or if there was it would be rigged in a way that gives EU workers extra points so that they get a boost.
If Dave did fall, we wouldn't get another election, and even if we did, who would we vote for? Herr Farage, The Boris, or Comrade Corbyn?
And financially? We'd be poorer, much poorer, and do you really think that it would be the rich elite who would take those cuts?
Not a chance, if we've only learnt one thing from the 2008 crisis, it's when the banks screw up, it's those who can't afford to pay who have to pay.

[STEED]

The Establishment always wins, get ready for another economic hit its on the way.

The whole campaign has been a pile of crap from both sides which shows the state of politics in the UK sucks. And once again the Establishment wins.

Will the pros wake up?...Never, and the Inner Party knows that.

[Oberon]

This was never a vote against 'The Establishment', it was a vote to shift the blame from 'The Establishment' to something else. :O:

[STEED]

This was never a vote against 'The Establishment', it was a vote to shift the blame from 'The Establishment' to something else. :O:

ALIENS FROM PLANET X

[Oberon]

ALIENS FROM PLANET X

Niburu, man, at least get the name right! :nope:

[STEED]

Niburu, man, at least get the name right! :nope:

:haha:


Are we having fun?

You bet your arse we are. :har: :har: :woot:

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGT9D/wake-up/image.gif?w=500&c=1

Right I'm off to bed for some sleep and in the morning nothing would have changed, in or out.

[Oberon]

Party time is it?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/989781/david-dimbleby-o.gif

Meanwhile, Farage has un-conceded defeat, I wonder if that's a bit like how he unresigned himself from leadership of UKIP. :haha:

[vienna]

How comes I can't vote the Brits out?

And don't tell me: "because you lost the bloody war!". The other Eeyou's aren't asked either.


http://poster.keepcalmandposters.com/2828084.jpg



<O>

[Oberon]

Nigel Farage has conceded, unconceded, conceded and unconceded defeat. :rock:

[Oberon]

Farage has started the conspiracy theories already, claiming that if Remain wins then it might be to do with the extra time given for registration. This from the man who supposedly wants to give Brtiish people 'more power'. :haha:

[Oberon]

Is it that lopsided they can declare victory before the votes are counted?

Nope, STEED is just being STEED. The Polls made an estimate, and Farage reacted to that estimate by conceding, then had to backpedal when some areas haven't quite gone as the models have predicted.

In short, it's still far too early to tell. :doh:

[Torplexed]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clqqhv2VYAACIU1.jpg

[Oberon]

If only that was an option on my ballot slip... :up:

[Oberon]

Well, I'm going to be hitting the sack in a bit, it's currently swinging in favour of Leave, so perhaps earlier celebrations were a bit hasty but there you go, it could still go either way.
I guess we'll see where we wind up in a decade, and I hope for our sake that whatever decision has been made is the right one.

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClrZ2MxXEAAxKG9.jpg

Meanwhile the pound heads for Drachma territory...if this keeps up we'll have to join the Euro....oh....

[Mittelwaechter]

See a litte up and down, make profit with the Pound Sterling rate, have a tight 'Stay'.

Planning ahead and having full control in the roller coaster is fantastic.

[em2nought]

Cheeky ba$tard$ using ink instead of pencil on those ballots. :D

Man, gold is $oaring.

[Gargamel]

BBC is forecasting Leave to win.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36615028

[Nippelspanner]

http://i.imgur.com/dZ0OW9e.jpg

[Torplexed]

Is that a graph of David Cameron plummeting out a window?

A lot of people in shock today.

Trading in Japan halted, market down 1,000 points. NYSE likely to drop 650 points at the starting bell tomorrow. It'll be umm... interesting to see how that plays out over the next 4 months.

I guess UKIP becomes BIP. :-?

[Reece]

Well STEED, you won!!!:yep:
Lets hope the economy picks up after the initial shock, I think we all knew this would happen!:hmmm:

[Oberon]

The pound has fallen off a cliff, the nikkei has been suspended and both Scotland and Northern Ireland are making independence noises.

Bravo Brexiteers, bravo.

[Torplexed]

The pound has fallen off a cliff, the nikkei has been suspended and both Scotland and Northern Ireland are making independence noises.

Bravo Brexiteers, bravo.

Maybe Dr. Who can pop in and save the day.

Never mind. :o He's in an express police box to somewhere the hell else.

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Independence-Day-Resurgence.jpg

[Oberon]

Maybe Dr. Who can pop in and save the day.

Never mind. :o He's in an express police box to somewhere the hell else.

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Independence-Day-Resurgence.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huxnKdMZkv8

[Torplexed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huxnKdMZkv8

The current Doctor when Britain entered the European Economic Community was never that cold and dark. Maybe it is time to leave. :)

https://mindreels.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/bakerwho.jpg

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClsYkJhVYAA_MXm.jpg

http://memecrunch.com/meme/6DKUM/oh-what-a-surprise/image.jpg

[STEED]

Well blow me down we done it! :up:

Casino traders will have a good few days making fast money so what, they have been doing for years. :O:

The House of Cards will now do its worst to the UK by showing its real ugly face, I hope these countries thinking about referendums are allowed to go ahead if they so choose.

[STEED]

EU referendum: Welsh voters back Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36612308

Well I be..

[Oberon]

Well blow me down we done it! :up:



Broke up the UK? Crashed our economy? Quite likely deep-sixed the hopes and dreams of the youth of Britain? Yup, you did, well done. :up:

[STEED]

Broke up the UK? Crashed our economy? Quite likely deep-sixed the hopes and dreams of the youth of Britain? Yup, you did, well done. :up:

So that goes for Jim and Bossmark as well?

[Oberon]

So that goes for Jim and Bossmark as well?

I guess the future will tell, won't it? But the signs aren't that good.

[STEED]

I guess the future will tell, won't it? But the signs aren't that good.

Yes we all knew it was going to be rough to start with and all hands to the pump, only in ten years will we really know what this day has done to the UK.

Don't forget traders treat the trading floor as their own private casino.

Its our duty now to kick these politicians up the arse and get it back to how it should be..they work for us not the other way around as it has been for years.

[Oberon]

Yes we all knew it was going to be rough to start with and all hands to the pump, only in ten years will we really know what this day has done to the UK.

Don't forget traders treat the trading floor as their own private casino.

Its our duty now to kick these politicians up the arse and get it back to how it should be..they work for us not the other way around as it has been for years.

But Brexit isn't going to do anything to that, STEED. All it's done is hand power to the Conservative right wing. It's going to give more power to the politicians to screw over the poor without the EU stepping in to stop it. If anything they're going to have to screw over the poor more and strip away union rights in order to try and make what's left of our industry competative in the global markets. Benefits? Forget that, you think we've seen cuts to them now, wait until the cuts come that have to try and balance the budget which is in freefall now.

[Oberon]

And Cameron looks to be resigning.

If only there wasn't such a cost for it, and such terrible choices to replace him. :nope:

[MGR1]

Pity, I was hoping the Remain vote might've been higher in Scotland, but it's surprising to see even the North-East (where the bulk of Scotland's fishing communities are) voted to stay.

That's 62% pf the vote in Scotland with 54% of the vote in Northern Ireland for Remain. I think the UK's going to have a constitiutional crisis sometime soon. From a Scottish perspective, it will be interesting to see how the SNP handle this. They're sitting on a pressure cooker at the moment with regards to their more "commited" support.

Either we go fully federal, or an Independent Scotland and a United Ireland become a real possibility.

From the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the Kingdom of England and Wales, perhaps?

Mike.:hmmm:

[Oberon]

From the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the Kingdom of England and Wales, perhaps?

Mike.:hmmm:

It's entirely possible. I have my strong doubts that Norn Iron will actually join Ireland though, there's just too much bad blood there no matter what Sinn Fein says. Would be incredible if it does happen though. :o

[Catfish]

Seems they voted to leave.. well i wish us all the very best.

A backstep to nationalism, and a step forward for right wingers and extremism. Sad day for international relations.

[Catfish]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClsYkJhVYAA_MXm.jpg

Make that man your new prime minister and let's see how he delivers.

[Skybird]

Surprise! :yeah:

Courageous. It will be troubled water in the short and medium run for the Brits, and Germany will lose lots of money indirectly due to the economic implications (they said on German media a Brexit, counted per head, would cost every German 16800 Euros), nevertheless it is the right decision in the long run. The EU will fall anyway, not immediately, not tomorrow - but when that becomes evident, Britain will be in a much, much more comfortable position, by then being much better prepared to surf the Tsunami waves than other nations in Europe.

For the EU, this either means that self-convinced as they are they will try to enforce even stricter and closer unification at all cost, no matter the price, which seems to be what Asselbloom and the likes seems to favour - they still haven'T heard the shot; or the EU fat cats will learn that they cannot continue on the path they are travelling on, and that just further "integration" as if nothing had happened (establishing one central command for half a billion people of so many different identities like it is the case in Europe), is no longer an option, and thta even a deconstruction of the EU to a certain an quite far reaching degree is what reason demands.

"Europe" implies always the plural, there never has been just one "European" cultural identity. And the EU and Europe are antagonists, they are not the same. The competition between these different cultural laces and competing economies is what has made Europe big and so leading in world, once. Planned economies cannot compete with that.

Congrats, Britain, you have chosen the more reasonable - though more difficult - way. The early time after the split will not be easy.

The close result 52:48 isn't especially easy as well. One is also wondering if the United Kingdom will remain to be this united in the future (Scotland). But if any sub-entity of a union wants to leave the union, it always must have any right to do so. That is true for Scotland as well as other regional independence movements across Europe, too. No regional population is the property of somebody else, people do not own each other.

[MGR1]

It's entirely possible. I have my strong doubts that Norn Iron will actually join Ireland though, there's just too much bad blood there no matter what Sinn Fein says. Would be incredible if it does happen though. :o

Well, if, hypothetically speaking, Scotland was allowed to have another referendum (that power is still reserved to Westminster, though, and it could still block it) and the SNP convinces enough people to vote "Yes", that potentially knocks the Unionist party's out feet from under them. Afterall, the Union would no longer exist in that event.

That might cause some realignment in NI's politics as people start to think beyond the "Catholic/Protestant" divide that logjams everything over there. From what I can see, only the Democratic Unionist Party was pro-Leave, all the others, including the Ulster Unionists were pro-Remain.:hmmm:

Going back to Scotland, Ruth Davidson has said that there will be no split between the Scottish and Main Conservative Party's, but that was before the result came in. She's gone on about "Lines in the Sand" before, but she has demonstrated adaptability before, so that could still change.

As for now, Sturgeon's making her statement, so it should come as no surprise that the SNP are making first moves towards a second Independance Referendum for Scotland.

I'd say it's 50/50 they'll win it this time.

Mike.

[KaleutKiwi]

Are you German?
Because that is what the Central-European mainstream-media keep telling you day in, day out.

See it the other direction. DEMOCRACY has ruled over empty phrases, poorest "symbol-politics" and the outbleeding of social systems. That is the toll those producers of "hot air" have to pay now. Now even the Euro-SJWs (German "Gutmenschen") must acknowledge that they cannot always make politic for minorities and for the sake of political correctness only.

The people does not want that!

The people of the Great Britain has voted. That is democracy!

I believe the Great Britain will well survive this. For instance they also have free-trade-treaties with countries such as Mexico (Andele!!) and nobody seriously says that you need a "South American Union" to achieve such.


right on the money, it was democratic, the people have spoken, it is done

this is how democracy is and should always be

[Skybird]

I think the proper thing for the EU would be to make it clear that they will not let Scotland ore Northern Ireland in as long as they are no netto payers. Which will take them a while.

Of course the eU is not known for doing the proper things, but megalomania. They also will want to execute a deterring example on GB, to frighten away other people in Europe demanding to leave the EU.

The immediate stockmarket reactions are to be expected. Comes time, comes normalization. Follow Buffet's advise: don't stare on graphs. Serious investement is a longterm strategy - not gamble-and-run.

[Skybird]

Are you German?
He is, like me, at least by his papers. :smug: We are just two extremely different kinds of Germans.

[Skybird]

I just had a look at the map with colour-coded results. i did not expect that the split between Scotland/NIreland and England would be that complete and obvious.

Net receiver and net payers. Where have all the European ideals gone? Is it all just about profane money? No love for thy next for the sake of altruism? I was told we should be each other's guardians.

And than just this: its about stinking money...? How - how profane! :) There is no love and no humane grandness in the world anymore.

:woot:

[Skybird]

No offence. All is good.
It just got me wondering to read there the exact same lines that I hear when I watch German TV.
Indeed, all is good, and I took no offense at all, why should I? :up: I just answered your question.

He represents however the modern majority German, so to speak :) , while I certainly do not. I think more - well, European. Just that to me that means to recognise differences instead of ignoring them and wanting to dismantle oneself.

[Skybird]

Der Spiegel titles his opening opinion piece currently with "Es muß Liebe sein" (It has to be love), and the author means by that that where the EU doe snot convince people anymore with facts and reality, people now should discover their love for the EU as the driving force for not wanting to leave it.

:har:

Let's save the world. Be good to each other, any the grass will grow greener all by itself. Jean-Claude loves you, man!

My title for an opinion piece would have been a very different one. "Es muß endlich Vernunft einkehren." (There finally has to be reason). Since you cannot escape the consequences of ignoring unwanted realities anyway.

[STEED]

Just popped in to post this...

SKY News reported Margaret Hodge as tabled a motion of no confidence backed by two others against JC.

[Oberon]

Just popped in to post this...

SKY News reported Margaret Hodge as tabled a motion of no confidence backed by two others against JC.

Yup, looks like they might be voting as soon as Tuesday.

Wonder if there will be another general election... :hmmm:

[Catfish]

It seems Boris has not to say a lot about the outcome ?

[Takeda Shingen]

So, I wake up to the news that the Brits have voted to leave the EU, the Pound is in free fall, the Prime Minister is resigning and Scotland and Ireland are making for the door. No doubt the extremists are having a lovely day.

Hey Oberon, you and the lovely lady can stay at our guest house until you get your footing state side. We'll be happy to have you.

Yes we all knew it was going to be rough to start with and all hands to the pump, only in ten years will we really know what this day has done to the UK.

Hey man let's blow up the dam. Sure it is going to flood the valley and kill all kinds of people but in a few decades, after we fish out all the bodies, it might make for a really nice vacation spot.

[Skybird]

And a petition is soaring that tries to get another referendum.

As we all know since the Lisbon dictate at latest, "democracy" means to let people vote as long until you got the result that you wanted, and if you do not get it, you ignore it and make a backroom deal behind closed doors.

The petition claims that not a total majorty of Britons (by head-count) have actively supported Brexit, since 30% did not participate in the vote (why should these now be counted as Bremain...??), and that there shall be a new refere3ndum with fangs and claws, saiyng that it is only valid if 75% of the voters participate and 60% vote Brexit.

So that even if a majority< by their definition forms up for Brexit - it nevertheless shall mean nothing, and the minority shall have its will! :D

Bending the rules!

The only thing that is worrysome a bit, is a split up of the UK. Scotland and Ireland want to continue benefitting from getting more than they give back. While the EU does not mind to always invite the weak and the net receivers, and just demand its existing net payers to pay more. How a union should become stronger by adding weak components, is beyond me. You get stronger by adding strong stuff. And its not as if the EU is running short on existential challenges: debt crisis, paper money collapsing, China, Islam, Erdoghanistan, over-aging and demography, and one's own splendid megalomania.

[Takeda Shingen]

I was wondering how long it was going to take for this to be about Islam. The answer was about six hours.

[Oberon]

So, I wake up to the news that the Brits have voted to leave the EU, the Pound is in free fall, the Prime Minister is resigning and Scotland and Ireland are making for the door. No doubt the extremists are having a lovely day.

Hey Oberon, you and the lovely lady can stay at our guest house until you get your footing state side. We'll be happy to have you.



Hey man let's blow up the dam. Sure it is going to flood the valley and kill all kinds of people but in a few decades, after we fish out all the bodies, it might make for a really nice vacation spot.

Thanks man, although given the exchange rate I'm not sure that I could save up the £1,000,000 for a plane ticket! :haha:
That and there's the real risk that you guys are going to go through just as bad a patch in a few months. :doh: :wah:

I was wondering how long it was going to take for this to be about Islam. The answer was about six hours.

Perhaps we need a Godwin variant... Allahwins law? :hmmm: The longer a thread on GT goes on, the more likely it is that Islam will be mentioned.

[Takeda Shingen]

Thanks man, although given the exchange rate I'm not sure that I could save up the £1,000,000 for a plane ticket! :haha:
That and there's the real risk that you guys are going to go through just as bad a patch in a few months. :doh: :wah:

Possibly. What I hope happens is that the very unfortunate events unfolding in your country serves as a cautionary tale to those in my own about what happens when you let the wing nuts drive the bus. Shockingly, it seems that people wearing blinders make for poor coachmen.

Perhaps we need a Godwin variant... Allahwins law? :hmmm: The longer a thread on GT goes on, the more likely it is that Islam will be mentioned.

I am adopting this.

[Mittelwaechter]

A large amount of small businesses are doing their job. One grows bigger, gains control over cheap resources and labor. He may even start to incorpotate others. He becomes the big fish.
The remaining fishes group together, to counterweight the big fish, for synergy and more competitive business essentials. But there is dispute over leadership and business strategy in the new union. The first member leaves the group again, destabilizing the hole group. It may even brake up completely. The single fishes are searching for new alliances. The perfect moment for the big fish to incorporate some smaller business again - and grow even stronger.

The way to capitalist monopole.

[Oberon]

Possibly. What I hope happens is that the very unfortunate events unfolding in your country serves as a cautionary tale to those in my own about what happens when you let the wing nuts drive the bus. Shockingly, it seems that people wearing blinders make for poor coachmen.

If there can be one good thing to come out of this mess, that we can serve as a lesson, then perhaps that will be something. :yep:

[HunterICX]

If there can be one good thing to come out of this mess...

For the Spanish it's pretty obvious :haha: How I learned of the Brexit this morning was this:

''Spain says 'closer to' controlling Gibraltar after Brexit vote''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/spain-proposes-shared-sovereignty-over-gibraltar-after-brexit-vo/

[Skybird]

Outrageous!! :haha:
Now mass-media becomes ridiculous.
There is much bitter blood boiling hot everywhere today, and it will take some time to calm down again, winners and losers alike.

When the cooling down phase is over, we all will need to live with the result of this, one way or the other, and that is true for not only Britons. Its fair to say that despite Britain itself nobody else than Germany is as heavily effected by these events. Germany hoped for Britain as an ally in dismantling nations and establishing the continental super-state instead. Today was a harsh and cold waking-up. Due to the immense importance of Britain as German trade partner, the immediate fiscal losses after the split, will be important. The hope that the Bank of England one day would join the Euro madness and buy some more party time for all, has run dry.

I do not regret that Germans are being taught these lessons. They have gotten far to cozy with arranging themselves with the madness all around. In a reasonable world, this now would have served us as a most urgent wake-up call. But of course, the realist in me knows it better.

[Oberon]

For the Spanish it's pretty obvious :haha: How I learned of the Brexit this morning was this:

''Spain says 'closer to' controlling Gibraltar after Brexit vote''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/spain-proposes-shared-sovereignty-over-gibraltar-after-brexit-vo/

Don't blame them, don't blame them at all. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Quite an interesting and historic night. I managed to stay up until 4am by which time the outcome was still in the balance.

I've caught up on this thread and must congratulate the posters on so much balanced and IMHO level-headed viewpoints.

My two penneth worth if I may (referring to a few of the previous posts if I may).

Surprise! :yeah:

Courageous. It will be troubled water in the short and medium run for the Brits, and Germany will lose lots of money indirectly due to the economic implications (they said on German media a Brexit, counted per head, would cost every German 16800 Euros), nevertheless it is the right decision in the long run. The EU will fall anyway, not immediately, not tomorrow - but when that becomes evident, Britain will be in a much, much more comfortable position, by then being much better prepared to surf the Tsunami waves than other nations in Europe.

For the EU, this either means that self-convinced as they are they will try to enforce even stricter and closer unification at all cost, no matter the price, which seems to be what Asselbloom and the likes seems to favour - they still haven'T heard the shot; or the EU fat cats will learn that they cannot continue on the path they are travelling on, and that just further "integration" as if nothing had happened (establishing one central command for half a billion people of so many different identities like it is the case in Europe), is no longer an option, and thta even a deconstruction of the EU to a certain an quite far reaching degree is what reason demands.

"Europe" implies always the plural, there never has been just one "European" cultural identity. And the EU and Europe are antagonists, they are not the same. The competition between these different cultural laces and competing economies is what has made Europe big and so leading in world, once. Planned economies cannot compete with that.

Congrats, Britain, you have chosen the more reasonable - though more difficult - way. The early time after the split will not be easy.

The close result 52:48 isn't especially easy as well. One is also wondering if the United Kingdom will remain to be this united in the future (Scotland). But if any sub-entity of a union wants to leave the union, it always must have any right to do so. That is true for Scotland as well as other regional independence movements across Europe, too. No regional population is the property of somebody else, people do not own each other.

Fully agree with you on the above Sky :yep:



See it the other direction. DEMOCRACY has ruled over empty phrases, poorest "symbol-politics" and the outbleeding of social systems. That is the toll those producers of "hot air" have to pay now. Now even the Euro-SJWs (German "Gutmenschen") must acknowledge that they cannot always make politic for minorities and for the sake of political correctness only.

The people does not want that!

The people of the Great Britain has voted. That is democracy!

I believe the Great Britain will well survive this. For instance they also have free-trade-treaties with countries such as Mexico (Andele!!) and nobody seriously says that you need a "South American Union" to achieve such.

Pretty much agree, Britain being the fifth or sixth (after last night) biggest economy in the world and currently importing more from the EU than it exports I should imagine we will remain a valued trading partner to anyone who feels it necessary to trade (can't think of a country not in this position).

Well, if, hypothetically speaking, Scotland was allowed to have another referendum (that power is still reserved to Westminster, though, and it could still block it) and the SNP convinces enough people to vote "Yes", that potentially knocks the Unionist party's out feet from under them. Afterall, the Union would no longer exist in that event.

That might cause some realignment in NI's politics as people start to think beyond the "Catholic/Protestant" divide that logjams everything over there. From what I can see, only the Democratic Unionist Party was pro-Leave, all the others, including the Ulster Unionists were pro-Remain.:hmmm:

Going back to Scotland, Ruth Davidson has said that there will be no split between the Scottish and Main Conservative Party's, but that was before the result came in. She's gone on about "Lines in the Sand" before, but she has demonstrated adaptability before, so that could still change.

As for now, Sturgeon's making her statement, so it should come as no surprise that the SNP are making first moves towards a second Independance Referendum for Scotland.

I'd say it's 50/50 they'll win it this time.

Mike.

I'll steer clear of the religion subject and focus on the political and economical matters if I may.

I'm not surprised at the new wave of hot air eminating from Sturgeon, Salmon and co. It is after all their holy grail aka independence and the breaking up of the union.

I suspect what happened last night might possibly tip the balance in their favour but should the possibility become the reality I trust they will take with them their fair share of the national debt, heed the possibility of large job losses in the defence industry (to name just one) and make plans for an alternative currency (the pound is underwritten by the Bank of England and not the financial institutions of Scotland).

Whether they would meet the requirement of EU membership I've always thought not but looking at the list of those countries waiting to be admitted (none would be net payers) I am beginning to wonder.

When all is said and done though, if it is the democratic will of the Scottish people, then so be it, I personally wish them well.

I just had a look at the map with colour-coded results. i did not expect that the split between Scotland/NIreland and England would be that complete and obvious.

Net receiver and net payers. Where have all the European ideals gone? Is it all just about profane money? No love for thy next for the sake of altruism? I was told we should be each other's guardians.

And than just this: its about stinking money...? How - how profane! :) There is no love and no humane grandness in the world anymore.

:woot:

Rgr that. Money will always look after those who have it and maintain control over it.

What I struggle to understand is some of the negative rhetoric I have heard on tv coming from your country, a country which has almost bled itself to death financially on backing another lame duck member state which finds itself in a position of never being able to repay its debt.

I don't pretend to be the ultimate font of knowledge on the subject but I am truly surprised the EU didn't go out of their way to make more meaningful concessions to a net paying member state.

Now that democracy has spoken, the fat cats must be wondering not at what they are about to lose but more alarmingly, will this just be the beginning and if and when is the house of cards going to collapse?

[Takeda Shingen]

If there can be one good thing to come out of this mess, that we can serve as a lesson, then perhaps that will be something. :yep:

Well I would have preferred something less costly than a bunch of people I regard highly in such a nice nation having to live with trashcan fires every half block as the new normal.

[STEED]

Sent to me earlier today..

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BGU39/lol/image.jpg?w=620&c=1

[STEED]

My boss voted stay in and said he can live with it, life goes on.

[Mr Quatro]

"The only thing we have left to fear is fear itself"

Winston Churchill

Now it boils down to who will have the last laugh ... :up:

Now they can change their National song to Frank Sinatra's,
"I Did it My Way"

[Mittelwaechter]

70 years after WWII, Germany's CAPs have conquered most of Europe, are in control of the European economy - while the British resign, threatened to break up totally, with Scotland and North Ireland fond of Germany's Europe? On the face of it.

Sure, the German economic war on Europe is no Blitzkrieg, like the military war once was. It's soft-footed, subtle, but the success is undeniable these days. The weapons may have changed, but the principles remained the same. And again - no resistance of the German people; they stay subservient to their authorities. The controlled media tools are doing their job perfectly - as per normal.
Germany's fascist CAPs are prospering, while the majority of the Germans aren't - just like the regulars in the rest of Europe.

The British are escaping back over the channel - yet again? Seemingly the City of London CAPs have decided to retreat.
But the empire has been lost! Where comes the help from? Will the Russians have to free the continent again from Fascist Germany? Will the Yankees show up?

No! All players are equally fascist. No politicians try to run the German fascism - the German CAPs are in control.
It's just a regular capitalist economic competition for dominance.

But! The British CAPs have a tight grip to the 'financial empire', here in Europe. This may be considered to be enough - to be the big fish here themselves. The Yanks don't like it, I have heared.
The Brexit result is no coincidence. We probably don't understand by now the forces behind the curtain. Time will show - and an unobstructed, undistracted view on the situation.

[August]

"The only thing we have left to fear is fear itself"

Winston Churchill

Actually it was Franklin Roosevelt who said that.

[Mr Quatro]

Actually it was Franklin Roosevelt who said that.

Whoops! I knew that August I was just testing you ...

Still works for me though ... way to go Brits :yeah:

I like what this man said:

French leftist Jean-Luc Mélenchon said on French radio this morning, “This is the end of a world that begins with this Brexit. This teaches a lesson to the whole of Europe; either we change it or we leave it. This is the time for a plan B.”

[MGR1]

I just had a look at the map with colour-coded results. i did not expect that the split between Scotland/NIreland and England would be that complete and obvious.

Net receiver and net payers. Where have all the European ideals gone? Is it all just about profane money? No love for thy next for the sake of altruism? I was told we should be each other's guardians.

And than just this: its about stinking money...? How - how profane! :) There is no love and no humane grandness in the world anymore.

:woot:


I'll steer clear of the religion subject and focus on the political and economical matters if I may.

I'm not surprised at the new wave of hot air eminating from Sturgeon, Salmon and co. It is after all their holy grail aka independence and the breaking up of the union.

I suspect what happened last night might possibly tip the balance in their favour but should the possibility become the reality I trust they will take with them their fair share of the national debt, heed the possibility of large job losses in the defence industry (to name just one) and make plans for an alternative currency (the pound is underwritten by the Bank of England and not the financial institutions of Scotland).

Whether they would meet the requirement of EU membership I've always thought not but looking at the list of those countries waiting to be admitted (none would be net payers) I am beginning to wonder.

When all is said and done though, if it is the democratic will of the Scottish people, then so be it, I personally wish them well.


It's not very surprising, really. During the 2014 IndyRef the "Better Together" side failed completely to build a positive, all encompassing image for the Union. As a result, the Union itself was reduced to being nothing more than a money-transfer mechanism which underlines Scotland's dependency on England. You can't feel much love for something like that, even thogh I'm pro-UK and voted Leave.

Mike.

[Skybird]

What I struggle to understand is some of the negative rhetoric I have heard on tv coming from your country, a country which has almost bled itself to death financially on backing another lame duck member state which finds itself in a position of never being able to repay its debt.

Thats modern "Germaness". And modern Germaness means: non-German. You have to act as if you were the antithesis to "German", this now is the meaning of being German. Sometimes some people feel a hunger for somethign that they cannot explain, and then they stageact as patriots by swinging a flag during a football tournament, but they usually do not really understand what it is what they do and why. Some others enter the empty pathos of radical rightwingers'C clubs and formations - and show a perverted interpretation of patriotism: hostile nationalism. Most people play a role as is expected of them, act sober and kind, and in essence are something like neuters, "neither fish nor meat". And like most people, Germans are very prone for collectivism and search for the perceived protection of the herd into which they want to melt. Thats why your referendumj today is so very shocking for Germans. For Germans, it is treason what you have done, and a completely unbelievable step to make. Stepping out of the herd...? Are you Brits ill...? For the German mind, this is unimaginable a decision to make.

Must be hard for foreigners to understand it. See, our forefathers have been perfect engineers, and then became perfect monsters. Germans today now want to be perfect moralists, perfect self-accusers, perfect admitters of guilt. We are so perfect, you see.

:shucks:

That lead to after German reunification the German Basic Law being amended with articles 23 and 24, which open wider than in any other European nation the floodgate to transfer national sovereignty from constitutional bodies and the "nation" to external, foreign, international entities of administration. You can be assured: we will pay for others until the world ends, no matter what. We are on a mission: am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt (wieder einmal) genesen.

Also, where after WWII others said "Better make sure you fight for the side of goodness!", Germans were taught to think "Never fight again, no matter who is good and who is evil, no matter who is helpless victim and who is aggressor." Endless relativization of the difference between good and bad, right and wrong, are part of the German way of debating today.
Aren't we perfect? Even when admitting our forefather's guilt, we do it better than anyone else and overshoot the target by declaring ourselves as guilty as well.

And so we make ourselves pay. And we love it to be made paying. Payback is our fetish, so to speak. :D And yes, we are perfect in that, too.

Its a collective psychological defomation that came as a consequence of WWII and Denazification and the design decisions for the new federal republic. A psychological deformation, plain and simple.

Add to this defect the constitutional mission;

and that the current political lead personnel has a biography of socialisation in the former GDR, both president and chancellor;

and that there are strong left-leaning unions in Germany (the world's largest union is a German one, and many of the German other unions have a reputation to be very left leanign even for EU standards);

and that the complete educaiton sector in germany since the so-called 68er-revolution has been allowed to fall totally into the hand of the far left leanign ideology, by now breeding ever new generations of left-leaning intellectuals that then enter state service and the education sector again;

then add all these points together - and get the logical result.

Germany explained in a nutshell. Historic cultural greatness has little to do with modern Germany's status, unfortunately.

[Hawk66]

Seems they voted to leave.. well i wish us all the very best.

A backstep to nationalism, and a step forward for right wingers and extremism. Sad day for international relations.

100% agree...the young (<25) have voted 3/4 for remaining in the EU, at least this is light in the dark...

@Skybird: I do not know in what country you live, it cannot be Germany or there are several ones with that name :O:

It's also strange: when Germany pays for the rest of the world and does not benefit from the same, why is the country not already bankrupt? So that will happen in the future ? Why do then investors all over the world invest and lent money ? So they are all insane, greedy and so forth and only the EU-haters are knowing how it is ? I see...

And what about this here : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/ ?
A 'small mistake', lol...so in the next days and weeks we will see additional 'mistakes'

So, what have the UK gained from that decision ? A weaker economy, lost trust and maybe Scotland will leave the UK soon....smart decision !

[MGR1]

It's not very surprising, really. During the 2014 IndyRef the "Better Together" side failed completely to build a positive, all encompassing image for the Union. As a result, the Union itself was reduced to being nothing more than a money-transfer mechanism which underlines Scotland's dependency on England. You can't feel much love for something like that, even thogh I'm pro-UK and voted Leave.

Mike.

Ooops, forgot to add, in reference to Jim's point about a possible Independent Scotland taking a share of the UK's national debt:

What the rest of the UK consider's a fair share and what an independant Scotland could actually financially support will probably be quite different. I'd say the UK would probably lose out more than an independant Scotland would.

It all depend's on how acrimonious any negotiations become, should they happen.

As an aside, going to how things unfold in the upcoming Tory Party leadership contest, if Boris Johnson becomes Conservative Leader, the leader of the Scottish Tories, Ruth Davidson, has said the party north of the border would split from the UK party. This goes along with Scottish Labour under Kezia Dugdale seriously contemplating also splitting away from the main UK Labour party. Recent events may give both greater impetus.

Mike.

[Skybird]

It's also strange: when Germany pays for the rest of the world and does not benefit from the same, why is the country not already bankrupt?
We are bankrupt. Explicit state debt is at some 80% of GDP, growing, but implicit debts are soaring at - depending on what calculation model you choose to follow - levels between 280-800%. Also growing. The wonder-and-miracle world of worthless Keynesian paper "money" that can be inflated in volume without limit, without inhibition, without scruples! Why do you think politicians so desperately stick to it?

Every nation in the West is bankrupt. All maintain "delaying filing of insolvency" as their business model.


So that will happen in the future ? Why do then investors all over the world invest and lent money ? So they are all insane, greedy and so forth and only the EU-haters are knowing how it is ? I see...Again: paper money, and fractional reserve banking. Its all a great bluff indeed, a great lie. People stay loyal to it because they have no other ways to do different anymore. Its like being trapped in a lift cabin with cut wires: there is nothing you can do, so you simply stay inside and race down with the rest of the pack. That you are not yet smashed potatoes, does not mean the travel model works. It only means that the building is quite high.


And what about this here : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/ ?
A 'small mistake', lol...so in the next days and weeks we will see additional 'mistakes'I leave that to the Britons to answer, such internal things of the campaign are not us foreigners' business. I took note of these, but did not form an opinion on it.Farrage and paroles and campaigning - British business, not mine. What is of interest to me is the blow this all delivers to the EU.

[August]

lift cabin

For us Yanks that means "Elevator". What do you call it in German? "Lufthaus"?

[Skybird]

For us Yanks that means "Elevator". What do you call it in German? "Lufthaus"?
"Fahrstuhlkabine" or "Liftkabine". We use abbreviated "Fahrstuhl" or "Lift" as well, or "Skilift, Sessellift", for example.

Note that the dictionary shows differences between GB and US English there, the Brits seem to use both lift and elevator, and Yanks only elevator. A cabin can be a hut, but also a "Kabine", "Kajüte" (on a boat), compartment, partition, cube.

I meant just the small moving compartment that moves up and down.

[August]

"Fahrstuhlkabine" or "Liftkabine". We use abbreviated "Fahrstuhl" or "Lift" as well, or "Skilift, Sessellift", for example.

Note that the dictionary shows differences between GB and US English there, the Brits seem to use both lift and elevator, and Yanks only elevator. A cabin can be a hut, but also a "Kabine", "Kajüte" (on a boat), compartment, partition, cube.

I meant just the small moving compartment that moves up and down.

Thanks. I'm trying to brush up on my German as i'm hoping to visit relatives there in the next year or so.

[Skybird]

Thanks. I'm trying to brush up on my German as i'm hoping to visit relatives there in the next year or so.
If this is so, let me add that "lift cabin" does not translate into "Lufthaus". ;)

To lift means "anheben" in German, and "lift" as a noun would be so different things like Anhebung, Lüftung (as a process), Mitreisegelegenheit, Transport .

"Luft" would be "air", "clearance", "atmosphere", the empty space between two close-by things or surfaces, or just "oxygene" (Atemluft=breathing air)

:)

[Betonov]

In slovene it's dvigalo which would translate to hoister, which (IIRC) the English name the forklift. The forklift is a viličar which would simply translate to forky

Sorry about that.
I'll make an official comment about Brexit when I compose one