Europe's migrant problem

[Onkel Neal]

I'm surprised no one has started a topic on this. It's all over the news here. Thousands of migrants trying to get to Germany, England, and Sweden, among other countries. Greece is overrun, Hungary erecting a fence, thousands of Syrians and Africans drowning in the Med or dying in lorries. What the heck's going on over there?

[Betonov]

Refugees trying to get away from a nutjob organization that was left after a certain war Europe didn't start left a power vacuum.
Certain nutjobs are abusing the situation to smugle themselves back in Europe to make a mess.
Certain nutjobs abusing the situation to score cheap political points.
Certain morons listening to above nutjobs, making quite heated debates at the pub.
Certain morons going the other way of the spectrum crying about the poor refugees but wouldn't lift a finger to help them. FB justice warriors.
Me stuck in the middle waiting for certain ''experts on Europe'' to pop up in this thread giving me a headache.

But good point Neal, Europe is right now facing a crisis that could be handled better and hopefully we won't screw this one up. We can't turn those refugees away, it's barbarism. But we can't feed and clothes them out of our own money we bloodily need to fix the financial mess that still haunts our economies.
We can have our armies to set up camps and open a voluntary donations accounts. We're known for our solidarity. A European will rather give €50 voluntarily than see €20 of his taxmoney go to outsiders. And then have our and your inteligence combing the camps for known ISIS fighters.
But that makes too much sense and anyone trying it will take flak from the left and right :nope:

[Herr-Berbunch]

No European has started the thread because they don't want to appear racist.

Migrant workers I welcome, as I'm sure do most. Benefit-seeking migrants (come to Europe to be given money (sending some back to family), clothes, and accommodation, I do not welcome*. We aren't in the best fiscal situation, we already give away far too much in aid to other countries (India, I am looking at you, any country that can willingly put craft into space does not need more money, it merely needs to reassign funds better).

*These benefit tourists are under the impression this is what they will get. Interviews in Africa show that UK has a reputation for giving all-comers the life of Riley but in reality that isn't necessarily the case.

Now to asylum seekers. They should stop in the first safe place and plead asylum there. Therefore in the UK we should only get asylum seekers from Nordic states, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Portugal at a push, Ireland, and Iceland. I don't think we should not take asylum seekers, but they should be distributed throughout Europe (I want to say evenly, but I mean on a per capita basis), nobody should actually arrive here and plead.

I know other countries have it worse than Britain. I'd love to hear Eichhornchen's take as he lives near a high migrant area, I know some areas of my home town are now taken over by seemingly endless rows of Polish shops and gangs (groups perhaps is less inflammatory as there's little 'gang' action).

[Schroeder]

What the heck's going on over there?
Well, a certain country was destabilized not so long ago by a foreign power that then left it without a proper competent military to fend for itself while another neighboring country went up in a civil war. A certain ultra Islamic organization took the chance and started a holy war overrunning large parts of both countries and terrorizing the citizens who have neither faith in the extremists nor in their corrupt and/or incompetent governments to safe them from the savages. So there is a mass exodus to Europe. The refugees will of course want to stay even after the wars are long over and we have another couple of million Muslim citizens in parallel societies.:yeah:


Don't get me wrong, of course I feel the need to help them and have already donated clothes and money to relief organizations to help the refugees but I fully expect a fist in my face and a dagger in my back in 10 years from now as thanks.:-?

[HunterICX]

I'm surprised no one has started a topic on this. It's all over the news here.

I did mention it in the Terrorism thread as being the other side of the problem caused by Daesh.

It's pretty sick what happens in Europe especially with the human trafficking gone wrong like the Truck in Austria with the aprox 70 refugees choking to death in that small truck :down:, the Neo Nazi's in Germany burning down an asylum centre :nope: and the UN just expects it'll eventually blow over. :damn:

[Onkel Neal]

Bush did it, check. :arrgh!:

Actually, I am not disagreeing, the war in Iraq was a mistake. As you remember, I supported it. There was intel on WMD, Saddam did nothing to dispel that, and I am naïve when it comes to helping people under the boot of a dictator. You know, the whole "if someone had shot Hitler in 1934"*; but we who thought the people of Iraq had some kind of sense and vision would have seized the chance to become a free and prosperous country...overestimated them by a mile. :shifty: As well as did not understand all the crazy religiousosity, middle ages customs and sectarian hatred. But, I guess if you want to go back just a little further, European colonization....:hmmm:

But that aside, there have been wars, famines, and desperation in Africa and the Muddle East for decades, that's not new. What is new is the current and growing migration pattern. One analyst on NPR said that these thousands of migrants are only the tip of the spear, the hardy first pilgrims who will face death to get there. He said once Europe begins to open the doors and make the path safer and resettle the migrants, a real flood will begin. :06:

We have Mexico and Central America, you guys are facing the wave of the rest of the third world.

[Torplexed]

There is a movement to shame the rich Gulf States into accepting some of these refugees. Here you have the crowded nations of Europe with a Christian or secular history taking in millions of Muslims while their rich Muslim neighbors look away. So much for brotherly Islamic values.

Saudi Arabia is a huge, empty country, much of it desert, certainly, but it supports 27 million people with a per capita GDP of more than $31,000. The United Arab Emirates is smaller, but it is also awash in oil wealth and could take a significant number. And the overflow of Syrian refugees that aren’t resettled in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the UAE could be settled, with Gulf money, in other huge, empty Arab countries, like Algeria and Sudan. The 22 member states of the Arab League cover 5 million square miles. Surely, somewhere in there they can find space for displaced Syrians. But, I think they are only too glad to see them moving on.

I suspect as with the decades-old Palestinian refugee problem, Saudi Arabia and the rest will talk the talk, but balk at the walk. The only exception being poor, over-burdened Jordan.

[Eichhörnchen]

No European has started the thread because they don't want to appear racist.

I'd love to hear Eichhornchen's take as he lives near a high migrant area.

I agree with all you say, HB.

In Boston yesterday I passed a young guy painting a shop front, making it look nice: "Polish Shop" said his new sign, plus another in the window. I thought "Good for you, mate and I hope you do well with it". There were no end of empty shops in the town until recently, and now just about all of them have been opened again. Mostly, it seems, by Polish or other Eastern European immigrants.

We noticed, a few years back, some exotic-sounding accents around town... just now and again. Today it seems that half the people you come across have an Eastern European accent; it's very common to hear it now. They look different too, and usually very good-looking; the women are often gorgeous, including Granny. And they give every impression of being a galvanising presence: fit, active and willing to belong (there were enough stories about the migrants pitching in to help the other residents during the floods in Boston a couple of years back). But at the same time, you can't deny the great pressure on resources they've brought to the area. Not their conscious decision to do so, of course, since it means that they're in the queue with everyone else.

But I hate to hear the muttered comment about the "foreigners" because, guess what, we heard the very same complaint in the very same tone levelled at us, as incomers from the Southeast 30 years ago. Like many other "foreigners" from places like Kent and Sussex, we came then because the houses were so much cheaper, and we'd been squeezed out by the proximity of our home towns to London and its burgeoning population of commuting high-earning house-buyers, so we were ourselves migrants.

No-one except other southerners comments about my accent now... I've got my feet well and truly under the table here and, as one old local countryman once told me, "You've paid your dues, boy". These immigrants are, from what I can see, setting about paying their dues with a will. Things change... suck it up.

[Schroeder]

Bush did it, check. :arrgh!:

Yes, and Obama finished it by pulling out while the country was still an unstable steaming pile of cow dung. I don't know who was more stupid.:/\\!!
What did they expect would happen in a power vacuum in the middle east?

[Rockstar]

Oh wait a minute now if I remember correctly everyone here, including europeans, were hot to trot aboard the Arab Spring band wagon. Everyone was shouting with glee 'down with dictators', 'bring down those current governments and self proclaimed rulers for life', 'power to the people', etc etc. blah blah. Seems to me everyone back then, including europeans, were all for destabilizing the region.

You got exactely what you asked for. Or are you all now trying to say the immigrants flooding your shores are just coming from Iraq?

[Jimbuna]

Great topic with some honest, thoughtful and interesting views thus far.

I'll leave it at that from myself to enable any potential future moderator intervention.

[sturmer]

most european countries just dont have the resources to help the migrants, like here in belgium for example.
most countries have problems to help their own people and everyone expects that those countries help the migrants.
okay they need help, but it always has to come from the same countries.
why arent saudi arabia or dubai or those other rich countries helping them?

[Nippelspanner]

No European has started the thread because they don't want to appear racist.
You sure about that?

I'm not afraid to appear racist, as I know I am not.
However, I didn't start that topic cause it pisses me of.
In Germany it seems we have only two sides.
Those on the very right, acting as if every single refugee is a criminal just waiting for an opportunity to strike and those on the far left, acting as if all of them are poor poor victims of someone or something and need all the love in the world.
The truth, and the more realistic point of view I dare to say, is somewhere in the middle - yet I hear no one speaking or thinking like that in, say TV talk shows, newspapers, articles, ...

~400m from where I live, we have a small refugee camp, build of containers, just a small one really.
I am glad it is there and I hope people who need help will get it there as this is what humans should do - help another.
Additionally I hope no nutcases are among those refugees.
So far I heard nothing negative.

[Nippelspanner]

why arent saudi arabia or dubai or those other rich countries helping them?
Haha... good one.

http://religionnerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Saudi-Arabia-women-being-beheaded-for-witchcraft2.jpg

Saudi Arabia... one of the worlds buttholes.

[Schroeder]

Oh wait a minute now if I remember correctly everyone here, including europeans, were hot to trot aboard the Arab Spring band wagon. Everyone was shouting with glee 'down with dictators', 'bring down those current governments and self proclaimed rulers for life', 'power to the people', etc etc. blah blah. Seems to me everyone back then, including europeans, were all for destabilizing the region.

You got exactely what you asked for. Or are you all now trying to say the immigrants flooding your shores are just coming from Iraq?
You've got a very selective memory then as a lot of Europeans have actually warned about the destabilization and the risks that are involved. (can't find the proper links anymore but here is one I found after a quick search:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/printthread.php?t=206939)

Not all refugees are from Iraq but a good portion. The majorities actually are from Iraq and Syria.

[Dowly]

No European has started the thread because they don't want to appear racist.
"I am proud to be Asian" - said the Asian
"I am proud to be African" - said the African
"I am proud to be Jewish - said the Jew
"I am proud to be an Arab" - said the Arab

"I am proud to be European" - said the evil, racist, homophobe, white, intolerant, right-wing, hateful antisemitic supremacist Nazi oppressor

[STEED]

Thorny issue here in the UK and I don't trust comments made by politicians and the media news and to be honest no one has a solution to the problem and both sides say they have when in fact they have not, sooner or later the general public in the UK will go off like a fire cracker.

http://www.netanimations.net/Moving-animated-clip-art-picture-of-metronome-x-bpm-7.gif

Or maybe not..

[HunterICX]

In Germany it seems we have only two sides.
Those on the very right, acting as if every single refugee is a criminal just waiting for an opportunity to strike and those on the far left, acting as if all of them are poor poor victims of someone or something and need all the love in the world.
The truth, and the more realistic point of view I dare to say, is somewhere in the middle - yet I hear no one speaking or thinking like that in, say TV talk shows, newspapers, articles, ...

Because in Germany from what I've heard but could be wrong if you have genuine concerns and critisism about the whole Asylum issue right now politicians have no problem in throwing you into the same basket as the Neo-Nazis or as Dowly put it down more appropiate.

a evil, racist, homophobe, white, intolerant, right-wing, hateful antisemitic supremacist Nazi oppressor actually it's not only in Germany as in the Netherlands you can't get away with it either if you have critisism or genuine concerns you're branded the same as the above these days.

[Wolferz]

Maybe those refugees should grow a pair and do something about what's going on in their home countries, instead of running away like lazy cowards and looking for a handout elsewhere.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

[Schroeder]

Maybe those refugees should grow a pair and do something about what's going on in their home countries, instead of running away like lazy cowards and looking for a handout elsewhere.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
That worked really well in Afghanistan against the Soviets, didn't it?:shifty:

How do you make sure that you don't actually train and equip the wrong people?

[Nippelspanner]

Because in Germany from what I've heard but could be wrong if you have genuine concerns and critisism about the whole Asylum issue right now politicians have no problem in throwing you into the same basket as the Neo-Nazis or as Dowly put it down more appropiate.
Yes, this is absolutely the case here and is a huge problem, as "political correctness" always is.

Maybe those refugees should grow a pair and do something about what's going on in their home countries, instead of running away like lazy cowards and looking for a handout elsewhere.
I don't even know what to say

[Tchocky]

Pledging €20 to get Oberon a soapbox+loudhailer, who's with me?

[Herr-Berbunch]

The EU needs to get its collective heads out of its arses and actually get a proper program in place for resettlement and relocation of these people.


I'd recommend a disputed strip of land they could call home. What could possibly go wrong.

[STEED]

I did contemplate taking a trip to Speakers Corner when I head down to London next... :hmmm:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/02/18/article-2561756-0030411300000258-859_306x462.jpg

Do it in style, in the buff. :)

[vienna]

Yes, and Obama finished it by pulling out while the country was still an unstable steaming pile of cow dung. I don't know who was more stupid.:/\\!!
What did they expect would happen in a power vacuum in the middle east?

Interesting take, given it was Bush who set the pullout date and timetable during his negotiations with the Iraqi puppet government his administration set up. It is also interesting the final pullout date was 'coincidentally' set after the end of his terms, rather than during his Presidency. I guess he and his cronies knew they had severely, and for the American servicepersons killed and maimed for really no purpose, tragically botched the whole situation and also saw the inevitable chaos that would come after US forces were withdrawn and chose to let whoever followed Bush to take the hit and thereby not damage Bush's sterling "legacy"...

Whoever followed Bush was left with a no-win situation: if they pulled out, the outcry would match what we have now and what is characterized in the quote above; if they had stayed or increased US presence in Iraq in contradiction to the Bush-negotiated agreement, the cry would be of war-mongering, duplicity, 'imperial Presidency', etc. It didn't matter if it was Romney or Obama: Bush crapped all over US foreign policy, as he did US economic policy, and left the steaming piles for his successor(s)...


<O>

[STEED]

I'm trying to attract people to the cause, not scare them off! :O:

Your only scare off any police surveillance...Arrreeeeee my eyes, why did I use the zoom. :03: :haha:

[Wolferz]

Interesting take, given it was Bush who set the pullout date and timetable during his negotiations with the Iraqi puppet government his administration set up. It is also interesting the final pullout date was 'coincidentally' set after the end of his terms, rather than during his Presidency. I guess he and his cronies knew they had severely, and for the American servicepersons killed and maimed for really no purpose, tragically botched the whole situation and also saw the inevitable chaos that would come after US forces were withdrawn and chose to let whoever followed Bush to take the hit and thereby not damage Bush's sterling "legacy"...

Whoever followed Bush was left with a no-win situation: if they pulled out, the outcry would match what we have now and what is characterized in the quote above; if they had stayed or increased US presence in Iraq in contradiction to the Bush-negotiated agreement, the cry would be of war-mongering, duplicity, 'imperial Presidency', etc. It didn't matter if it was Romney or Obama: Bush crapped all over US foreign policy, as he did US economic policy, and left the steaming piles for his successor(s)...


<O>

Bush is working on his autobiography....

HOW I SCREWED EVERYBODY WITH MY BIG DICK CHENEY

He'd be done by now if the crayons would stop breaking.:-?

[Rockstar]

Pledging €20 to get Oberon a soapbox+loudhailer, who's with me?


umm, no.

[Betonov]

In that case, I pledge Oberon my largest potato box

[Mr Quatro]

"I am proud to be Asian" - said the Asian
"I am proud to be African" - said the African
"I am proud to be Jewish - said the Jew
"I am proud to be an Arab" - said the Arab

"I am proud to be European" - said the evil, racist, homophobe, white, intolerant, right-wing, hateful antisemitic supremacist Nazi oppressor

Jeremiah 9:23-24　
This is what the Lord says:
"The wise must not brag about their wisdom.
The strong must not brag about their strength.
The rich must not brag about their money.
　
But if people want to brag, let them brag
that they understand and know me.
Let them brag that I am the Lord,
and that I am kind and fair,
and that I do things that are right on earth.
This kind of bragging pleases me,"

[Betonov]

Has it be de-potatoed first? Don't want to give the crowd any weaponry.... :hmmm:

I'll stuff it with common sense to scare UKIP away

[Schroeder]

Interesting take, given it was Bush who set the pullout date and timetable during his negotiations with the Iraqi puppet government his administration set up.
I stand corrected then.

[Onkel Neal]

Maybe those refugees should grow a pair and do something about what's going on in their home countries, instead of running away like lazy cowards and looking for a handout elsewhere.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

I really wish the First World countries could band together and go into these regions, roust out the bad dictators, and help the population rebuild their infrastructure, sort out their issues...oh wait, we tried that and it blew up in our face. Bush, check.:dead:

[vienna]

I stand corrected then.

Not intended as a correction, just a clarification. A lot of people are under the misconception the current problems in Iraq are due to the Obama administration. Obama could have handled it better, but the seeds were sown by his predecessor. The very vocal and very bellicose criticism of Obama's actions by people such as Limbaugh, Hannity, and the large hollow bell-heads at Fox News and others has served as a deflection from the basic underlying facts. Believe me, an awful lot of otherwise reasonable Americans have very little knowledge of the basis for the situation in Iraq and its fallout (ISIS, etc.). I can only imagine what is being reported by overseas news services...


<O>

[Rockstar]

meh, seen it more often than I care to remember. immigrants/refugees going to great lengths and taking even greater risks to reach what they perceive as safety and freedom. so many lose so much.

[Torplexed]

Wow. A picture like that is worth a thousand tragic narratives. :o

[Rockstar]

Seriously?

"meh", as in Im not shocked by the photo of the dead washed up on the beach. seen it too many times before, seriously.

[Bubblehead1980]

Sad but hope Europe does not give in to PC and emotional guilt trips, they all need to be sent back. I grew angry seeing some of the "refugees" rant and rave as if has a RIGHT to just enter other countries , the sense of entitlement. Reminds me in some ways of those who feel entitled to enter the US without permission. Sad, hope Europe has a learned its lesson with unfettered mideast immigration and sends them all packing.

[Bubblehead1980]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3x1ZGSBZlwXcY/giphy.gif

About what I would expect after you're emotional guilt filled post. Just read the US will take in 8000 Syrians next year. inThe right is on the rise in Europe and herhere, this madness will endend eventually.

[Betonov]

Solidarity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity)!!!!
Do you have it ???

[Wolferz]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3x1ZGSBZlwXcY/giphy.gif

There ya go. Just blast the immigrants with this performance 24/7 and they wil RUN! home.:haha:

[Buddahaid]

There ya go. Just blast the immigrants with this performance 24/7 and they wil RUN! home.:haha:

Obviously we should just remove the...
[img]http://www.glencoe.com/sec/socialstudies/btt/celebratingfreedom/images/statue_of_liberty_island.jpg[img/]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Author: Emma Lazarus

[Bubblehead1980]

Well, what other reaction are you supposed to have when an immigrant starts rambling about the dangers of immigration? :har:


I am not an immigrant.True some ancestors were, long ago.Different time and world then, country needed people, now we are full, no room.

[Bubblehead1980]

Obviously we should just remove the...
[img]http://www.glencoe.com/sec/socialstudies/btt/celebratingfreedom/images/statue_of_liberty_island.jpg[img/]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Author: Emma Lazarus


Sign should read NO VACANCY now.Not being inhumane, just can not take in every stray with a sad luck story in the world.US nor most European nations can.Too many people, too few resources.Now, if every actually citizen were living the high life and economy was great, there was room and could come here LEGALLY, no problem.That is not the world in which we live.

The part that angers me is the sense of entitlement some show, especially some Syrians they showed on TV who are being held in Hungary.One man in particular, acted like Europe OWED him sanctuary, just disgusting.

Also, the illegal immigrant who hit my car last year while drunk, who tried to flee the scene, finally got jail time and supposedly will be deported, we shall see.Even if, sure he will come back across.SMH

[Cybermat47]

I am not an immigrant.True some ancestors were, long ago.Different time and world then, country needed people, now we are full, no room.

True, the entire world's full.

This one, at least.

Here's the solution:

http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/hightlight_images/mars2_115916c.jpg

The sooner we inhabit multiple planets, the better.

[Torplexed]

True, the entire world's full.

This one, at least.

Here's the solution:

The sooner we inhabit multiple planets, the better.


I think any serious colonization of Mars is between 100 and 300 years off (barring disasters). I don't think it will happen until after there is significant mining and manufacturing on the Moon or asteroids. I also think some kind of fission or fusion based propulsion will need to be developed before people go there with enough equipment to stay.

But the problem with thinking of Mars (or anywhere else) as a fallback planet, besides the lack of oxygen, magnetosphere, air pressure, food and liquid water is that it overlooks the obvious. Wherever we go, we’ll take our territorial selves with us. How long before the Chinese Mars Colony's terraforming policy starts screwing with the Western Mars colony's terraforming plan and vice-versa? Either we’re capable of dealing with the challenges posed by our own foibles or we’re not. Perhaps the reason we haven’t met any alien civilizations is that those which survive long term aren’t the type to go zipping around the galaxy. Maybe they’ve stayed quietly at home, tending their own garden and living within their means.

[Catfish]

Wherever we go, we’ll take our territorial selves with us. How long before the Chinese Mars Colony's terraforming policy starts screwing with the Western Mars colony's terraforming plan and vice-versa? ... Good point.
Maybe get rid of 'nations', and finally unite to defend the earth against asteroids, and 'conquer' space.
"But someone HAS to dominate the others", says the Chief ape, sorry, i mean strategic advisor.

Let IS have the moon, as it is now :03:

[Torplexed]

Good point.
Maybe get rid of 'nations', and finally unite to defend the earth against asteroids, and 'conquer' space.


Yeah, but you know how it is with us humans. You can have my tribal pride when you pry it from my cold, dead ego. :D

[Betonov]

Maybe we will be invaded by an advanced alien rase that sees potential in us that can't be fully realised a slong as we have our petty wars and will subjugate us wih benelovlant rule. And unicorns will eat rainbows.

[Rockstar]

The topic: European immigrant/refugee problem.

Responses to said topic: Looking back I see; Don't bother me, blame Bush, something to do with potatoes, talk of power vacuums, donations for a loud hailer, a few laughs and funny emoticons, mocking posts, don't trust politicians, guilt trips, photos of dead children, and suggetions what someone else should do to solve said problem.


thats really good.

[Onkel Neal]

Rockstar, I love your thread summaries. Need more of them.:yep:

I look at the picture of the little boy and my heart is filled with sadness and compassion. But that's not any different than when I see a picture of a junkie or an auto accident victim. The key is to find a solution that does not upend your society. These people need help. But are you going to allow as many as want to come in? Why not? How do you draw the line, say, "Yes, you can come in, no, you cannot" ? Let them all in, and millions will come. You better realize, they are fleeing a region where they make up the whole population, and they didn't seem to manage well there. Now they want in your country. Maybe it will work out, I hope so. How many of you are willing to give up 10, 15, 20% of your paycheck (or guvmint welfare) to provide for millions of immigrants? And compete for jobs with people who will gladly work for less than you. It's easy to be compassionate when you expect the rich fatcats to finance everything. I am not trying to be mean, just realistic.

[Betonov]

Rockstar, I love your thread summaries. Need more of them.:yep:


Fiction is always fun to read

[Dan D]

Knowledge available about asylum seekers in the EU:

"Before we enter the discussion about responsibility sharing of asylum seekers in the EU we need to take stock of where we are in terms of the knowledge available about asylum seekers in the EU.

In 2014 there were a total of 624,000 (first) applications for asylum made in the 28 EU Member States.

In 2013, according to FRONTEX more than 320 million third country nationals entered the EU (but of course the vast majority of them did not apply for asylum).

For the 1st quarter of 2015, 185,000 (first) asylum applications were made in the EU.
Of them:
4% were made in the UK
8% were made in France
39.6% were made in Germany
1.4% were made in Greece (Sweden with a smaller population size had 6.3% of the total)
8.2% were made in Italy.

Over half of the total asylum seekers in the EU came from one of three countries: Syria, Kosovo or Afghanistan.

94% of Syrian asylum applications made in the EU were granted in 2014. In the same year 90% of Eritrean applications were successful and 88% of Iraqi applications. In the same period, 66% of Afghan applications succeeded.

On 10 August 2015 the European Commission approved financial allocations for asylum (also migration and integration) for some of the front line states for the period 2014 – 2020 as follows:
Cyprus: 32 million euro
Greece: 259 million euro
Italy: 310 million euro
Spain: 257 million euro Sweden 118.5 million euro.

According to the European Commission approximately 3% of asylum seekers are ever actually subject to a Dublin III return to a Member State other than the one where the asylum seeker actually wants his or her claim to be determined. What is the problem with allocation of responsibility for asylum seekers in the European Union? First, the statistics make it obvious that most asylum seekers do not apply for asylum in the Member States with external borders even though according to the images which the press in Europe provides bout asylum seekers one would think they all arrive by boat through the Mediterranean. This, by definition, would mean that they arrive in border states, not where they apply for asylum – primarily in land states. Why do asylum seekers not stay in the border states, why do they go to such extreme lengths, travelling in all sorts of clandestine manners to get to other Member States, such as Germany, to apply for asylum? The answer is quite simple – in 2011 the European Court of Human Rights found that returning an asylum seeker to Greece would constitute inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment because of the unspeakably horrible reception conditions there. The situation has not improved sufficiently for asylum seekers to be returned to Greece even now notwithstanding the Commission making very substantial amounts of funding available for assistance and the activities of EASO (European Asylum Support Office) in providing support for Greece. The Court of Justice of the European Union came to a similar conclusion regarding reception conditions in Greece in 2012 and that the conditions in Italy for the reception of families with children were such as to constitute an obstacle to their return there.. "
(Guild, Elspeth: Responsibility Sharing of Asylum Seekers in the EU: Good Quality First Reception is the Key, VerfBlog, 2015/8/26)
http://www.verfassungsblog.de/responsibility-sharing-of-asylum-seekers-in-the-eu-good-quality-first-reception-is-the-key/

[Herr-Berbunch]

I'm surprised no one has started a topic on this.

Still surprised?

[Onkel Neal]

It does amaze me that the descendents of the Mayflower should pour such scorn on those fleeing persecution in their home nation. :doh:

Different times.

And what scorn? I'm just asking, how are we going to manage this?

[Tchocky]

Weren't a large part of the Mayflower pilgrims in search of new lands because there wasn't enough persecution back at home?

[Tchocky]

Sign should read NO VACANCY now.Not being inhumane, just can not take in every stray with a sad luck story in the world.US nor most European nations can.Too many people, too few resources.Now, if every actually citizen were living the high life and economy was great, there was room and could come here LEGALLY, no problem.That is not the world in which we live.

The part that angers me is the sense of entitlement some show, especially some Syrians they showed on TV who are being held in Hungary.One man in particular, acted like Europe OWED him sanctuary, just disgusting.

Also, the illegal immigrant who hit my car last year while drunk, who tried to flee the scene, finally got jail time and supposedly will be deported, we shall see.Even if, sure he will come back across.SMH

And I was just getting used to Skybird not being around.

[Mr Quatro]

For the 1st quarter of 2015, 185,000 (first) asylum applications were made in the EU.
Of them:
4% were made in the UK
8% were made in France
39.6% were made in Germany
1.4% were made in Greece (Sweden with a smaller population size had 6.3% of the total)
8.2% were made in Italy.



First of all, "Why is Germany so attractive to immigration"?

On the news I see these poor people leaving Turkey ... how did they get there from Syria or else where?

Then they have to cross the sea to Greece and walk for two weeks to Hungry.

If they make it to Germany ... what then? Do they have relatives already there to take them in? How do they eat? How do they live?

[Betonov]

And I was just getting used to Skybird not being around.

Nature abhors a vaccum

[Schroeder]

On the news I see these poor people leaving Turkey ... how did they get there from Syria or else where?

Syria has a border to Turkey. They can just walk over.


If they make it to Germany ... what then? Do they have relatives already there to take them in? How do they eat? How do they live?
They register as asylum seekers and are then transfered to one of the (now hopelessly overcrowded) first entry camps. Once the formalities have been processed there they get assigned to one of the regular asylum seeker facilities.

[mapuc]

I'm divided in this issue.

I really want to help those whose fleeing from wars and persecution

On the other hand I'm sort of very angry when I see:

Refugees makes a scene, because they are given food by Red Cross and they are offend by this "red cross"

When our own homeless or the weak can't get somewhere to live-due to laws, which say refugees comes first.

Making a scene in countries like Denmark, when they get a simple apartment and simple food-Made for them(halal)

I myself are supporting help in their nearby area.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

Syria has a border to Turkey. They can just walk over.


I thought the Syrian border with Turkey was controlled by isis.

Shouldn't they be worried about isis playing the game to get into other countries and then causing trouble?

[Betonov]

I'm divided in this issue.

I really want to help those whose fleeing from wars and persecution

On the other hand I'm sort of very angry when I see:




I really want to be angry with the hypocrisy of some, but how much of that is ''quote mining'' by the media. A 1000 refugees will accept what help we can give them and the media will ignore and one may cause problems and he will be all over the news.

[ikalugin]

Meanwhile - Russian Government offers a free acre of land to any citizen... in the Far East.

[vienna]

Didn't they used to do that to political dissidents? :O: :03:

They did, but the actual land dimensions were 6 feet down and 3 feet across...


<O>

[Betonov]

Meanwhile - Russian Government offers a free acre of land to any citizen... in the Far East.

Just an acre ??
Give me a 10x10km forest and I'm moving there tomorrow.

[ikalugin]

Well our hunting launge is 400k acres I think.

The new law is there b/c there is a lot of usable surplus land around various parts of Russia.

[mapuc]

I really want to be angry with the hypocrisy of some, but how much of that is ''quote mining'' by the media. A 1000 refugees will accept what help we can give them and the media will ignore and one may cause problems and he will be all over the news.


I can see I made some misspelling.

I'm not angry at every refugees only at those who cause problems.

You're 150 % right most of them, don't know how many percentage, are just happy to enter a country were he and his family can live in peace and comfort

Markus

[Betonov]

I can see I made some misspelling.

I'm not angry at every refugees only at those who cause problems.


I don't think you did.
Problem is that 0,1% of troublemakers will get the media up and the 50% of morons are going to pick it up like it's the divine truth.
Media today is more dangerous than the autocrats of Europe past :nope:

[Betonov]

Well our hunting launge is 400k acres I think.



I have 5 hectares with 400k plus mosquitoes.

[ikalugin]

Btw, how much land does a person need to sustain himself through farming?

[mapuc]

I don't think you did.
Problem is that 0,1% of troublemakers will get the media up and the 50% of morons are going to pick it up like it's the divine truth.
Media today is more dangerous than the autocrats of Europe past :nope:

Do you think I'm mad at some refugees who get first in line to an apartment, even though some Danish person had been waiting for, for a long time ?

NO!! I get furious at our politicians.

Markus

[ikalugin]

I think that goverment stance on distributing resources (such as social housing) to refugees should prioritise citizens over refugees.

[Rockstar]

...

In short, what we can't do is simply turn them around and send them back, to condemn them to a high likelihood of death. Primarily because the moment they set foot in Syria, they'll turn straight back around and try again. This time perhaps through the thriving network of people smugglers and they'll enter Europe through a different way and become another statistic in the rising human trafficking crisis in Europe.
We're human, we're all human, to turn our back on people who are so desperate that they would risk everything is inhumane. So we must find a way, somehow we must find one.

Contrary to what some might read in U.S. media. We turn back migrants all the time. When we came across them they were removed from their ship or boat. Then we swung our deck gun around and sunk the ship on the spot while they watched, a sort of psy op. Flew in interogators, and when they concluded their investigations. We made for land and dropped them all, men women and children back in their home country.

True some made the attempt again. But most stayed put because they couldnt afford it.

We cannot take in everyone without some regulation.

[ikalugin]

There is also (sometimes) the problem of internal migration. In Russia it is people from poor Caucasus going north (in to Moscow). This is the issue (I think, I could be wrong) that is new to the core EU members, as previously they were not open to such things (Germans were one of the first countries to experience this with the fall of the Wall, but then eastern Germans were not as different to their western kind as immigrants from Balkan Muslim areas would be).

[Bubblehead1980]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1a/a0/46/1aa04643f8c4ea692da441ba00f92f26.jpg

Reality is not pretty but we have think of ourselves first. The sign should read NO VACANCY

[Torplexed]

Quite a change from 1979. The US, which had a military presence in Vietnam for decades and also bombed Cambodia and Laos, eventually took in over 1 million Indochinese "boat people" from 1979-97, while another combatant, Australia, took 185,000 and the former colonial master, France, over 100,000. Each seemed to implicitly accept either some responsibility for the postwar mess, or a a desire to help people escape some of the punitive policies of the Hanoi government.

Today, not so much. :-?

[Rockstar]

Immigrants even refugees cannot be allowed to just wander in unregulated. Every country must have control of its borders. If you think repatriation is a bad thing go ahead open the flood gates and let everyone in and see what happens. Things will soon spin out of control and chaos would ensue.

[em2nought]

Quite a change from 1979. The US, which had a military presence in Vietnam for decades and also bombed Cambodia and Laos, eventually took in over 1 million Indochinese "boat people" from 1979-97, while another combatant, Australia, took 185,000 and the former colonial master, France, over 100,000. Each seemed to implicitly accept either some responsibility for the postwar mess, or a a desire to help people escape some of the punitive policies of the Hanoi government.

Today, not so much. :-?

...and almost all those people wanted to integrate into our societies as productive members. Today, not so much i think? :-? Maybe a portion even want to tear our societies apart? We've already got enough unproductive "units" as it is. Baa-ram-ewe! Baa-ram-ewe!

[Betonov]

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/11752444_10156015687905483_879636463559042971_n.pn g?oh=70a1f5c5f0c4a746146821dd644f1835&oe=567DF010

[HunterICX]

They must be distributed evenly, even outside of Europe if required, Russia could afford to take some, they're supporting Assad in this war, they've got a finger in this pie too, so it's only fair.

Eh?
I think the finger is that of the West who support, armed and funded the Terrorists Rebels who are against Assad.

Whether you like it or not but Assad's Syria is Sovereign who we west tried to destroy just like Iraq and Libya and if succeeded which we nearly did escalated the the problems in the Middle east even further.

Russia is only doing what may lead to a solution to the refugees problem and that's helping a state that's fighting against these terrorists to return peace to the country again.

[Betonov]

Russia is only doing what may lead to a solution to the refugees problem and that's helping a state that's fighting against these terrorists to return peace to the country again.

I agree. But I fear Russia will have to invade Turkey first. Erdogan is going to close the Bosphorus to prevent the Russians helping his ISIL allies against the Kurds (satire, but not far from truth)

[ikalugin]

We told west that going into Serbia would not solve problems there, as it is, well, Balkans. And now Kosovo is exporter of drugs and a center for human traficing, which Serbians have left (desecrating orthodox christian religeous sites and one way ethnic cleansing may have had something to do with it).

We told west that going into Afghanistan (especially considering who was sponsoring Alcaida) was a dumb idea. Result - drug exports go through the roof, Taliban stronk.

We told west that getting rid of Saddam would result in a 3 way civil war between Kurds and 2 Muslim groups. We said same about the Assad, and Kaddafi. What do we see? A civil war, refugees.

[HunterICX]

Well, I didn't say the west shouldn't take any, did I? :O: Just that, since Russia has involvement in this too, for better or worse, because let's face it, people are fleeing Assad as much as they are fleeing Daesh, then they should take their fair share too.

I think you'll find that Assads Syria was facing distinct problems before the west got involved, heavy drought, internal unrest, crop failure, the CIA couldn't have caused all of them. :03:

Where did I mention the CIA is behind all this? or talked about the source of the problem? I didn't.

I'm perfectly aware that countries like Iraq, Syria, Iran and Lybia etc etc wheren't paradises when it comes to human rights and free speech and do as much with crop failure and heavy drought as the West does when it comes to help Africans from starving but at least people could go on with their daily lives.

I'm merely pointing out that our interfering with affairs that aren't ours haven't improved the situation in the middle east but made it a hell of a lot worse.

Look at Iraq and Libya for example....post removal of guy we West didn't like the countries are a total mess. Syria is also a mess because we're supporting a side which turned to be even worse then Assad who have absolutely no regard for human lives nor have any grain of morality in the things they do or plan to do.

Anyway, I think we're probably done talking about this here, there's just no point really. Just like Europe, no-one is going to agree on anything. I just hope that those who are dead-set against helping refugees never find themselves in a position where they are refugees themselves. :hmmm:Europe is not to agree on anything, it's the UN's job to do what it stands for. Help the refugees by settling them temporarely across Europe, fight IS and make sure the people can return to their homeland and rebuild.
The answer is simple, the road will be a challenge.

[Rockstar]

Well going to the U.N. isnt really an option thats going to help much. Since Jordan, Turkey, European Union, United States and Russia i.e. the UN, are the ones causing the problems.


I hope I used 'i.e.' correctly. :)

[ikalugin]

Well you could resettle those people in Germany and offer Germans free land, start up loans and citizenship in some vast, underpopulated country such as Canada, Australia or, he'll, even Russia.
Or you could pay Ukraine to let those people in, but the living conditions there would be poor.

[HunterICX]

Not disagreeing, but we're really stuck between a rock and a hard place here, because if we don't do anything we're still going to wind up with thousands of refugees and if we do, then we could wind up making it worse.

Well so far we have just thrown fuel on the fire and made it worse. for grading purpose we haven't really delivered the democracy and liberties that where promised when we removed the 'bad' guy.

Trouble is, as you have said in the past, who listens to the UN? Assad certainly won't, Daesh won't, and someone is bound to veto a motion to resettle these people. I'm not arguing in that it should go to the UN, it should, but I don't hold out much hope of the UN actually achieving much.

Nor do I, as you said I'm very ware of the useless nature of the UN of solving a crisis with a more harsher method then asking politely to stop and asks not shoot at the guys wearing the blue helmets.

When talking doesn't help it's time for a good arsekicking and with Daesh's case to be utterly crushed by that same boot that does the kicking.

Because looking at the bigger picture if it can't stop a war like that of the Balkans and what's going on in the Middle East right now I'm pretty sure it won't be able to stop a war in Western Europe either. So what's the use of the UN apart from being funded for no apparent reason by it's members. It's not use for a institution to excists when it can't do what's it created for.

[Dowly]

This is too rich not to share. Sweden's foreign minister Margot Wallström criticizes Finland's policy about refugees by reminding us of the 70,000 Finnish children Sweden took in during WWII.

Oh boy :har:

[Mr Quatro]

These countries in Europe allowing the Muslim masses to enter their country have not done their homework of what will happen 20 years from
now in 2035.

They will increase due to birth control for the populations that already exist in Europe, including abortions, pills, condoms etc. and the Muslim religion says no to these things.

You would need a computer with the proper numbers inserted to see the end results of the desire for Islam to take over the world.

France has already seen this problem with police chiefs and mayors and voters of the Muslim influence already taking over.

The war in Syria has been going on for a long time ... why the push to leave now? Someone maybe pushing them out to gain future control of those countries.

Seed thought! What about 40 years from now 2055?

[Dan D]

Here is a link to the Refugee video game simulation called "Against all odds" created by the UNHCR ( UN Refugee Agency)

http://www.playagainstallodds.ca/

The game was awarded the Austrian State Prize for Multimedia and e-Business in the Knowledge and Learning category. The jury praised the game for building understanding, empathy and concern for the plight of refugees in the player, says wiki.

[August]

Well so far we have just thrown fuel on the fire and made it worse. for grading purpose we haven't really delivered the democracy and liberties that where promised when we removed the 'bad' guy.

Well I don't believe we ever promised to "deliver" them democracy and liberties but rather we provided the opportunity for them to give those things to themselves.

[Aktungbby]

Seed thought! What about 40 years from now 2055?I'm opening a prayer mat store next week! translated versions of the Koran are free with purchase!
:D
travel mat with compass( so you face toward Mecca) A$$alaam Alaikum BBY https://www.simplyislam.com/images/products/63686.jpgBilgerat prices:https://www.simplyislam.com/products/essentials/Prayer-Mat (https://www.simplyislam.com/products/essentials/Prayer-Mat):03: Officer prices: http://www.alhannah.com/islamic_merchandise/prayerrugs.html (http://www.alhannah.com/islamic_merchandise/prayerrugs.html) And so you don't forget... five times a day: http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayerDetail.php?city=Los%20Angeles&state=CA&country=usa&lang=english (http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayerDetail.php?city=Los%20Angeles&state=CA&country=usa&lang=english) And for those converted footballers with bad knees...somebody beat me to the punch: http://www.google.com/patents/US7246391 (http://www.google.com/patents/US7246391) for prayer in comfort! "A Turkish man living in Germany has invented a Muslim prayer mat that takes the strain off the knees which, he hoped to now sell worldwide. But he said he had already sold his rugs, which come in standard (39.50 euros, $52), luxury and child categories, as far afield as Singapore and the United States. Pirisan has not ruled out aiming his product at other religions, telling the daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung that he might look into it but not for purely business motives. But because I would wish to make praying easier for everyone, be they Muslim, Protestant or Catholic,” the paper quoted him as saying." Nuthin' like turnin' a shekel in the service o' the Deity...whatever yer persuasion. :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

Here is a link to the Refugee video game simulation called "Against all odds" created by the UNHCR ( UN Refugee Agency)

http://www.playagainstallodds.ca/

The game was awarded the Austrian State Prize for Multimedia and e-Business in the Knowledge and Learning category. The jury praised the game for building understanding, empathy and concern for the plight of refugees in the player, says wiki.

Nice, thanks for the link :salute:

Well I don't believe we ever promised to "deliver" them democracy and liberties but rather we provided the opportunity for them to give those things to themselves.

Exactly. We tried. There needs to be a George Washington on the other end to lead their people.

[Dowly]

And people still wonder why American's are thought as ignorant pricks...

[Nippelspanner]

This is too rich not to share. Sweden's foreign minister Margot Wallström criticizes Finland's policy about refugees by reminding us of the 70,000 Finnish children Sweden took in during WWII.

Oh boy :har:
What is Finland's policy on refugees actually?

[Dowly]

What is Finland's policy on refugees actually?
We take everyone who seeks for asylum. Everyone. EU law says so. We got no choice.

[Betonov]

Exactly. We tried. There needs to be a George Washington on the other end to lead their people.

Or a Monroe on first to not start a mess in the firstplace

[Onkel Neal]

And people still wonder why American's are thought as ignorant pricks...


Excuse me? Would you care to elaborate?

[Rockstar]

And people still wonder why American's are thought as ignorant pricks...

LOL well we are for the most part descendants of europeans imigrants so that might explain some of it. You know what they say: "it takes one too know one";)

[Dowly]

Excuse me? Would you care to elaborate?
My response was towards August, who, again, tries to circumvent the issue.

[Betonov]

LOL well we are for the most part descendants of europeans imigrants so that might explain some of it. You know what they say: "it takes one too know one";)

Except, unlike you, little children of the old world, our dear colonial spawn, we have learned first hand what war is. You apparently didn't.
So ''it takes one to know one'' you know African warlords, not European nations. Which would explain why everytime you start talking about Europe you're more wrong than me talking about Martian geology.

[Dowly]

We take everyone who seeks for asylum. Everyone. EU law says so. We got no choice.
This was RE: Nipplespanner's question: What is Finland's policy on refugees actually?

We really take what we can, we are just 5 million people after all. We got our own problems, yet the refugees seemingly take the priority.

As for her 70k children, well, that's awhole different thing. We are thankful for it.

But, it's whole different thing. almost 80% of our refugees this year were young males. This can be seen from official statistic.

Mrs/Ms. Wallström, what were our young men doing during the WWII?

(Hint: It starts with: Defending our bloody independence, you silly idiot!"

[TCD]

...for us europeans like me who likes our old and nowodays alliances heritage of the past, between our very good old alliance France, United Kindom and United States of America (I like, for example, the comemoration of the 6 june 1944 D day, and the spirit that's in it).

We belong, over the Atlantic or the Chanel, to a same civilization and we citizen of this aera are allied. That's a fact
After, if in the backstage, there is some challenges between our different
governments, but that is the usual stuff. No problem. :)

[Torplexed]

"Refugees Leave Budapest Train Station, Vowing To Walk To Germany"

The refugees, some of whom had walked for hours in the direction of Austria after leaving a Budapest rail station, were provided buses by the government of Hungary late Friday after authorities in Austria and Germany agreed to accept them, the Associated Press reports. Some of the migrants already had walked 30 miles, about a third of the way to the border, by the time of the agreement, the AP reports.

Poor soles.

[Onkel Neal]

My response was towards August, who, again, tries to circumvent the issue.

Well, just like August, it happens that I am an American too. It doesn't matter to me if you disagree with his comment, or think his opinion is in error, but could you find a better way to express your opinion than using vulgarities. And as my friend Oberon likes to point out: you've got to be careful not to generalise.

I'm surprised I actually beat him to mentioning that. :O:,

[Torplexed]

And as my friend Oberon likes to point out: you've got to be careful not to generalise.



Neal, does this mean I have to get my mullet cut off?

http://ricoswaff.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/american-mullet-man.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

:D:D:D

[Nippelspanner]

We really take what we can, we are just 5 million people after all. We got our own problems, yet the refugees seemingly take the priority.
Ehhh... what is this woman on about then!?
From what she said I understood you do the opposite.
Well, politicians... why even bother...

[Hawk66]

Well I don't believe we ever promised to "deliver" them democracy and liberties but rather we provided the opportunity for them to give those things to themselves.

You're right that there was no direct promise but I think the impression was (deliberately) created.

Apart from this, history has given us a lesson in the last decade(s) (see Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya just as examples) that military interventions alone - even with attached nation building (with a lot of goodwill also from NGOs) do not work. You need complete control over a failed nation, like the U.S. has done it after WWII in part of Europe (and especially in my country). But there it was much easier, since there was a developed society having a common basis (religion, economics etc.) and a common foe.

You do find this in the problem zones today.

And I think this is the root of the migrant problem: There is simply no concept how to change this, since all know what the price would be (and I do not talking about the money but about the loss of lives and the possibility that whole regions are completely be destabilized). In the end all are waiting for a miracle to occur or hoping for the distant future to change things.

Maybe there are alternatives ?

[HunterICX]

I am an American too.

No you're not, you're a Texan.

Real 'Muricans drive Harley Davidsons not Jap bikes! :hmph:

/Generalization

[Torplexed]

Maybe there are alternatives ?

If there is a solution, I suspect it's a very expensive, highly complex, multi-faceted, multi-generational one. Which is why no politician will go near it unless there is no other choice.

It's funny. Most the world is currently outraged over the poignant photo of a drowned toddler washed on a beach, and we should be. But then a few months ago we were supposedly outraged over the videos of several good and selfless aide workers being beheaded. And then a video of combat pilot being incinerated alive in a cage. Some are outraged at photos of centuries old archaeological treasures being erased from history. We seem to have a lot of capacity for outrage while not doing much about it but grumbling. Which is why I suspect the continuing reaction to the refugee crisis will just be to muddle through.

[HunterICX]

If there is a solution, I suspect it's a very expensive, highly complex, multi-faceted, multi-generational one. Which is why no politician will go near it unless there is no other choice.

That pretty much sums it up when it comes to World politics, they rather sit and see if it'll blow over instead of doing the right thing.

It's funny. Most the world is currently outraged over the poignant photo of a drowned toddler washed on a beach, and we should be. But then a few months ago we were supposedly outraged over the videos of several good and selfless aide workers being beheaded. And then a video of combat pilot being incinerated alive in a cage. Some are outraged at photos of centuries old archaeological treasures being erased from history. We seem to have a lot of capacity for outrage while not doing much about it but grumbling. Which is why I suspect the continuing reaction to the refugee crisis will just be to muddle through.This week's hot news is next week's old news. Sensational Media at it's finest. Whilst the toddler is very tragic and sad but why did it get so much attention whilst another 4 young children that drowned earlier just a week or so back didn't?

http://i.imgur.com/oWgWFaT.jpg

and yeh you're right , all we do after seeying these images is grumble and shake our fists a bit.

[Torplexed]

This week's hot news is next week's old news. Sensational Media at it's finest. Whilst the toddler is very tragic and sad but why did it get so much attention whilst another 4 young children that drowned earlier just a week or so back didn't?



Wow. Those are shocking pictures too, even with the censored faces. However, show a couple hundred and people's eyes will glaze over. I guess Stalin was right about statistics.

I suspect it will take a monumental event similar to that of a rotten roof caving in on us to get any real action. We're content with the annoying drip, drip, drip in the meantime.

Sort of reminds me of of our reaction to climate change in that regard.

[STEED]

If there is a solution, I suspect it's a very expensive, highly complex, multi-faceted, multi-generational one. Which is why no politician will go near it unless there is no other choice.

Always come down to there god "MONEY" that must be worshiped. Its a lot more easy to bow down and worship money than getting off your fat arse and doing the right thing.



It's funny. Most the world is currently outraged over the poignant photo of a drowned toddler washed on a beach, and we should be.

Typical media they only do this to boost ratings, children are dying doing filthy jobs, living on the streets and rails around the world which the media choose not to bother. And now politician's must be seen doing something, why now after this shocking footage? Vote grabbing Bastards the lot of them.

I'm going to stop there and leave this thread before.....

[Schroeder]

I suspect it will take a monumental event similar to that of a rotten roof caving in on us to get any real action. We're content with the annoying drip, drip, drip in the meantime.

Sort of reminds me of of our reaction to climate change in that regard.
I think we in the West are in the final stage of what all empires have gone through. We're sated, live in peace, have become decadent and have stopped fighting for ourselves and don't accept casualties among our own people or responsibility for what we do in the world. We're just looking for the easy way and that usually is to give up and let happen whatever happens. Now we'll just stand by and watch as others take action. Sooner or later those actions will remove us from the top seat and we won't do anything about it.

[Torplexed]

Now we'll just stand by and watch as others take action. Sooner or later those actions will remove us from the top seat and we won't do anything about it.

On the other hand, we've seen the reward waiting for a few of those who decide to go out and make a difference.

http://www.massappealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ISIS-Beheading.jpg

I must confess I don't have the answer. We had a great crusade against fascism 70 years ago and no sooner than it was over than the pot started boiling over again. Certainly, after several botched interventions in the Middle East no one is in the mood for one now. Yeah, and you don't want to use the word, crusade.

[Rockstar]

Except, unlike you, little children of the old world, our dear colonial spawn, we have learned first hand what war is. You apparently didn't.
So ''it takes one to know one'' you know African warlords, not European nations. Which would explain why everytime you start talking about Europe you're more wrong than me talking about Martian geology.

Honestly I don't understand what you are driving at. Are you are saying Europe learned its lesson and has nothing to do with the war in Syria which is causing 11 MILLION of its inhabitants to cross into its borders?

[Betonov]

Honestly I don't understand what you are driving at. Are you are saying Europe learned its lesson and has nothing to do with the war in Syria which is causing 11 MILLION of its inhabitants to cross into its borders?

Of course you don't. Your previous record on anything European tells me you can't point Europe on the map of Europe, let alone be a euro-expert on this forum in regards to the geopolitical influence Europe can exert in todays world.
Europe has nothing to do with the current crisis. We chereed the iminent downfall of Assad since Assad is a dangerous moron the likes Europe managed to get rid of after the cold war. But half of Syria wouldn't have been swallowed by ISIL if ISIL wouldn't come to being as a reaction to a power vaccum left by your little adventure in Iraq. And leaving a few hundred thousand dead is not the biggest problem. Extremists have a recruitment drive when you destroy the lives of a few million. Europe didn't turn a middle eastern country into a breeding nest for terrorists, the US did. And don't count that little poodle Tony Blair as Europe assisting the war.

[Rockstar]

Of course you don't. Your previous record on anything European tells me you can't point Europe on the map of Europe, let alone be a euro-expert on this forum in regards to the geopolitical influence Europe can exert in todays world.
Europe has nothing to do with the current crisis. We chereed the iminent downfall of Assad since Assad is a dangerous moron the likes Europe managed to get rid of after the cold war. But half of Syria wouldn't have been swallowed by ISIL if ISIL wouldn't come to being as a reaction to a power vaccum left by your little adventure in Iraq. And leaving a few hundred thousand dead is not the biggest problem. Extremists have a recruitment drive when you destroy the lives of a few million. Europe didn't turn a middle eastern country into a breeding nest for terrorists, the US did. And don't count that little poodle Tony Blair as Europe assisting the war.


Nothing to do with it? OK, gee my mistake. But I realize ISIS isnt the only ones fighting the war to take Assad down. They may receive more press, they may possibley be the most brutal. But they certainly are not the only ones waging war against a leader of a sovereign nation you joined in on the call to have removed. That call for removal is IMO no different than coming right out and saying I approve of ISIS and all the others fighting to take Assad down. Now in your zeal to remove Assad you have a big portion of the 11 million refugees because of a war in SYRIA (not iraq).

[Betonov]

The famous black and white wiew of the world. Axis and allies. Either you're with us or against us.
So me thinking that someone should hang Assad from a lamp post means I also air dropped a t-72 to ISIL. Europe didn't move a finger when the revolution agaisnt Assad began. Quite contrary, our goverments were heavily critisised for not doing anything.

[Mr Quatro]

Europe didn't turn a middle eastern country into a breeding nest for terrorists, the US did. And don't count that little poodle Tony Blair as Europe assisting the war.

You must be having a bad day, uh Betonov?

Maybe it's the time zone problem?

Chill out man this isn't some soccer game :timeout:

[XabbaRus]

While I don't disagree that Assad isn't the most savoury of characters we still don't seem to have learned the lesson of encouraging the toppling of leaders we don't like (though we found them useful) and what happens when they have gone. Assad should have been encouraged to talk rather then put down the protests before the opposition was hijacked by the loonie militant Islamists, however he felt (and probably quite justifiable) that if he stepped down his fate would not be kind. By that I'm not meaning a trial and a prison sentence, but as seems to be the way in that part of the world a kidnap and a noose. They are big on revenge.

Are you suggesting that once the protests turned into an armed struggle we should have put boots on the ground? It is a situation where we do nothing, and you have the rise of IS due to a power vacuum in areas of Syria and the ineffectual government in Iraq. If we put boots on the ground it again becomes a recruitment drive for IS as the infidel is back. If we went in with overwhelming firepower I can see once again we would be accused of invading their lands and yet another islamic loony group comes about. At the end of the day, they don't have a real grasp of democracy. Look at Egypt, they had a democratic vote but the winning party decided that it is a winner takes all and damn the rest. The people understood that shouldn't be the case, but the politicians (I'm sure they do) choose not to and ignore the opposition and rig it to cling to power. So Assad, like Saddam before him whether we like it or not kept a lid on things. But hey in the guise of neo-liberalism and everyone should have democracy we jumped in without recognising the consequences of what we have promoted. The result is IS. The UK and USA are most responsible given the Second Gulf War, but the EU did little in the UN to stop it. Only Russia spoke up but they were ignored.

However a good point was made on the radio. The migrants, once they reach the likes of Turkey technically can't be considered in danger, as they are in Syria, therefore we are under no obligation to take them. In short it is Turkey's problem.

[Betonov]

You must be having a bad day, uh Betonov?



Quite contrary, I'm having a wonderfull week.
In two weeks time I'll no longer be of an unemployed specie and in the spring my friend is movign with his wife and I'll rent his apartment for one third of the price such an apartment costs. I also lost 10kg and I expect to loose another this autumn :rock:

I'll chill when clueless people will stop spreading lies and crap on this forum and stop getting praised for it.
Like I said, when Rockstar becomes an expert in Euro politics here I'll become an expert in Martian geology.

[Onkel Neal]

Quite contrary, I'm having a wonderfull week.
In two weeks time I'll no longer be of an unemployed specie and in the spring my friend is movign with his wife and I'll rent his apartment for one third of the price such an apartment costs. I also lost 10kg and I expect to loose another this autumn :rock:

I'll chill when clueless people will stop spreading lies and crap on this forum and stop getting praised for it.
Like I said, when Rockstar becomes an expert in Euro politics here I'll become an expert in Martian geology.

Congrats on the new job, I bet that's a relief! :yeah:

As for clueless people, I'm sure everyone thinks the same of everyone else, these discussions are largely a matter of opinion. I'm quite willing to concede many know a lot more than me about European affairs. Many Europeans know more about American affairs, too, judging by the profuse number of US-centered topics that they participate in.

[Betonov]

Congrats on the new job, I bet that's a relief! :yeah:



It's the old job actually.
I'm a little angry because my pay went down €300/month but I'll take the offer and work on a better pay/job from a much better position.

And about clueless people. I don't expect everyone here to know Europe like they have doctorates. But I believe that reasonable people, like Torplexed and Steve, won't take an arogant know-it-all stance and then spew miss-information. Even myself toned down the anti-gun rhetoric as I slowly figured out that gun laws are above my knowledge. Though I still lash out when someone tries to sell me that Europe is a lawless feudalism because we need permits for guns.
In the same way I'll lash out at every member trying to sell complete bollocks on any Euro topic.

[Onkel Neal]

Fair enough:salute:

[Jimbuna]

And people still wonder why American's are thought as ignorant pricks...

My response was towards August, who, again, tries to circumvent the issue.

And there lies the problem....name calling and insults cross the line of what behaviour we all expect from members of our community.

[Jimbuna]

It's the old job actually.
I'm a little angry because my pay went down €300/month but I'll take the offer and work on a better pay/job from a much better position.


Congratulations Anze.....a step however small but in the right direction.

Good luck on that adventure mate :sunny:

[ikalugin]

http://i65.fastpic.ru/big/2015/0906/45/1dc01be984f43280ab4f9a4b58619345.png

I think I need a shave too.

[August]

And there lies the problem....name calling and insults cross the line of what behaviour we all expect from members of our community.

Geez I only said that we didn't specifically guarantee something and it generates such hateful invective... :nope:

[Herr-Berbunch]

http://i65.fastpic.ru/big/2015/0906/45/1dc01be984f43280ab4f9a4b58619345.png

I think I need a shave too.

I've read somewhere that that is fake, created by the cretins of the EDL.

So, where do we stand now that it's been revealed the young boy and his family had been safe and settled in Turkey for quite a while, had accommodation and job (the father, not the boy) and was only migrating to get free dental work? And why hasn't it been mentioned in this thread so far? Or did I miss it? :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

It is the question many people ask here. If people got adequate security in the border states (ie their basic health and safety needs are filled), then why they emigrate further?

Maybe they are not only running from (violence and destruction) but also to (perceived huge payments, free social housing and excellent healthcare and what not)?

[mapuc]

Some days ago I heard some EU-politicians saying

There are two types of those whole fleeing

Refugees and immigrants

These words divided me-

Refugess - Yes we are obligated to help them who's fleeing from wars etc

But are we also obligated to help immigrants ? people who's not fleeing from wars etc

Markus

[mapuc]

It is the question many people ask here. If people got adequate security in the border states (ie their basic health and safety needs are filled), then why they emigrate further?

Maybe they are not only running from (violence and destruction) but also to (perceived huge payments, free social housing and excellent healthcare and what not)?

Many Danish and Swedish people are asking them self the same question- Why are they travelling through whole Europe-Through several othere safe-haven-countries towards Denmark and Sweden ?

In Denmark, the new government have cut the benefits with about 50 % for newcomer. This from September 1th.

Markus

[Dowly]

Some days ago I heard some EU-politicians saying

There are two types of those whole fleeing

Refugees and immigrants

These words divided me-

Refugess - Yes we are obligated to help them who's fleeing from wars etc

But are we also obligated to help immigrants ? people who's not fleeing from wars etc

Markus
Problem is, we don't know who's a refugee and who's an immigrant.

Great example from yesterday, when our prime minister interviewed this 17yo Iraqi boy in the Refugee center of Oulu. The boy pleaded for our PM to help him.

Well.. turns out this 17yo boy actually turns 20 in November (he looks even older to me) and according to his facebook account, he left Iraq in 2012 and has been travelin all over Europe since then. Turkey, Bulgaria, Hungary, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark and now Finland.

He switched his FB account to private earlier today, but the photos I saw there didn't exactly say "I'm a poor refugee". :nope:

Photos like this:
http://i.imgur.com/LO0cxXT.jpg

And this:
http://i.imgur.com/99OtkUp.jpg


And the most upsetting part is that our media is virtually silent. MTV (who filmed the interview) has now removed the video, so they are well aware of it. Overall, the media in Finland has gone to full-on blackout when it comes to anything negative concerning refugees/immigrants. :-?

[mapuc]

It's stories like this, that makes me mad, mad at him and other fake refugees

He the others are "working against" them who are really refugees.

Markus

[Bubblehead1980]

I get angry when I see reports each day. Germany is being foolish and naive taking these people.These so called refugees clashing with Greek Police because it is taking too long to get permits ? What is wrong. Everyone of them should be sent back to Syria if no other Muslim countries will take them in. The naievte and bleeding heart which has nearly ruined much of Europe will eventually kill it off.Sadly, my country is going same way if do not stop taking in the world's strays and send back the ones here illegally.

[mapuc]

^ You are mentioned one thing
" if no other Muslim countries will take them in"

Why will these rich Muslim country not take a lot more of these refugees ?

Markus

[u crank]

Why will these rich Muslim country not take a lot more of these refugees ?


There is the possibility that the refugees don't want to go to these 'rich Muslim' countries. I can think of a few reasons why they wouldn't.

[Onkel Neal]

Many Danish and Swedish people are asking them self the same question- Why are they travelling through whole Europe-Through several othere safe-haven-countries towards Denmark and Sweden ?

In Denmark, the new government have cut the benefits with about 50 % for newcomer. This from September 1th.

Markus

That will soon change. There will be widespread protests from current migrants in your country, joined by new immigrants, to let them have citizenship, and more benefits. When they can vote, they have the power to make that happen. And the migrants/refugees will petition to let their extended families enter the country, you cannot separate the families.

[Nippelspanner]

Do you possess any shred of human decency in your body? :hmmm:
Don't waste your time...

[HunterICX]

Ok, what's the solution then? Put them back into Syria? Might as well just give half of them to Daesh if you do that.


Sadly having all of them stay permanently ain't an option either if you don't want Europe to destabilize and spiral into chaos that'll brew eventually in yet another conflict where there's a a high possibility that they'll be scapegoated and thrown out or removed by force.

It'll have to be made clear to them their stay in the European countries is only temporary and that once things have calmed down and Daesh is crushed they'll be going back with UN's aid to rebuild their lives.

[Schroeder]

Sadly having all of them stay permanently ain't an option either if you don't want Europe to destabilize and spiral into chaos that'll brew eventually in yet another conflict where there's a a high possibility that they'll be scapegoated and thrown out or removed by force.

It'll have to be made clear to them their stay in the European countries is only temporary and that once things have calmed down and Daesh is crushed they'll be going back with UN's aid to rebuild their lives.
That would be the solution but it's not going to happen as our politicians don't have the spine for it. The refugees are here to stay with all the problems down the road that that will bring.:/\\!!

[Torplexed]

Certainly one of the by-products of Indian and Pakistani emigration to the UK from the 1940s to the 1970s was a curry house on every avenue.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03416/curry_3416129b.jpg

Here in the US it's burritos and tacos. And thanks to the influx of Vietnamese refugees you can't swing a dead cat in Washington State without hitting a punny pho shop.

http://i.imgur.com/vdxg6.jpg


So, Germany get ready for kebab and kibbeh in you national diet, if you haven't already.

[Torplexed]

Heck, the Indian and Pakistan influx to the UK helped create one of our national dishes. Chicken Tikka Masala, which despite its foreign sounding name was actually created in the UK, in Glasgow nonetheless.

Never had it, but just by the name, it already sounds five hundred times tastier than haggis. :D

[ikalugin]

How about:
- Create centralized EU authority do deal with immigrants, with UN overwatch.
- Identify conflict/disaster zones, people from which qualify as refugees.
- Create filtration camps under that authority.
- Dump all illegal immigrants/illegal refugees into those camps.
- In those camps process them and then distribute between EU members per quotas.
- If a person or family are found not to have legitimate reason to seek refuge - deport them.

[Schroeder]

How about:
- Create centralized EU authority do deal with immigrants, with UN overwatch.
- Identify conflict/disaster zones, people from which qualify as refugees.
- Create filtration camps under that authority.
- Dump all illegal immigrants/illegal refugees into those camps.
- In those camps process them and then distribute between EU members per quotas.
- If a person or family are found not to have legitimate reason to seek refuge - deport them.
That's pretty much what people wanted however especially the eastern EU countries and the UK are refusing to accept any kind of refugee quota. So much for the EU handling things together...:shifty:

[Aktungbby]

What I don't comprehend is why the EU doesnot freeze the assets of the Syrian state to pay for the mass exodus and issue a war crimes warrant against any and all parties. I notice none of refugees are headed for Russia which supports...or has supported the Assad regime; PUTIN' an unfair economic strain on Europe!. Russia has at various times used its UN Security Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council) position to block resolutions that would condemn the Syrian government (often in concert with China), including blocking the firstand second drafts of a Franco-British sponsored attempt to condemn the use of force by the Syrian government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_government). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%27s_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%27s_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11845635/Vladimir-Putin-confirms-Russian-military-involvement-in-Syrias-civil-war.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11845635/Vladimir-Putin-confirms-Russian-military-involvement-in-Syrias-civil-war.html) http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03429/Putin-cat_3429903b.jpgwhat's new pussycat?:nope: "Last week Syrian state television released images showing an advanced Russian-built armoured personnel carrier, the BTR-82a, in combat. Videos have also appeared in which troops engaged in combat appear to shout instructions to one another in Russian. Last week the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth cited western diplomatic sources saying that Russia was on the verge of deploying “thousands” of troops to Syria to establish an airbase from which the Russian air force would fly combat sorties against Isis."

[Dan D]

On the EU summit 25/26.06.2015 the EU members despite heavy disputes were able to agree upon a EU distribution key for relocation and resettlement with regard to (back then) 40.000 refugees in Greece and 20.000 in Italy.

A new proposal by the EU commission is to be made soon which will have to pass the vote of the EU Council.

The EU distribution key for refugees you find here, scroll down till chart: http://fluechtlingsforschung.net/europaische-fluchtlingspolitik-und-sie-bewegt-sich-doch/


How to read:
First number is the proposed quota by the EU Commission and the second number shows the vote in the European Council, the third number the total number of refugees either to be relocated or resettled for each country.


For Denmark. Ireland and the UK the votes of the EU Council are not binding on the field of asylum policy as per Protokoll 21 and 22 VAEU Ratsbeschlüsse. These EU members are not included when it comes to relocation, but they have volunteered to take part when it comes to resettlement.

[mapuc]

For Denmark. Ireland and the UK the votes of the EU Council are not binding on the field of asylum policy as per Protokoll 21 and 22 VAEU Ratsbeschlüsse. These EU members are not included when it comes to relocation, but they have volunteered to take part when it comes to resettlement.

Can tell you today our primeminister said

That Denmark would take some of these refugees, even though Denmark is not a part of this EU-asylum system.

Markus

[mapuc]

Are we not heading to wards this thread ?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215404

After have read Aktungbby latest post I start to wonder if we are heading to wards the thread about IS

Or is it me who is wrong.

Markus

[Rockstar]

What I don't comprehend is why the EU doesnot freeze the assets of the Syrian state to pay for the mass exodus and issue a war crimes warrant against any and all parties. I notice none of refugees are headed for Russia which supports...or has supported the Assad regime; PUTIN' an unfair economic strain on Europe!. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%27s_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%27s_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11845635/Vladimir-Putin-confirms-Russian-military-involvement-in-Syrias-civil-war.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11845635/Vladimir-Putin-confirms-Russian-military-involvement-in-Syrias-civil-war.html) http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03429/Putin-cat_3429903b.jpgwhat's new pussycat?:nope:


Yep, I don't think getting Assad out has much to do with him being the boogyman. I'd wager it has more to with further reducing Russias influence in the region.

200,000 dead and 11 millions refugees later and Assad is still there. If he goes that will leave all rebel groups including ISIS fighting each other for the throne increasing the death and refugee rosters. Power to the people!

[Onkel Neal]

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blofeld_5403.jpg




https://flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/dr-evil-bigglesworth.jpg?w=728

[Betonov]

one thing I dont' get, Syria was 5 years ago a developed Mediteranean country with GDP larger than Slovenia. How does Assad go from running a successefull nation to being moronic enough that a civil war starts :nope:

[Betonov]

So right now our best shot of stopping this mess are the Russians which will keep Assad on the throne which is counter productive to solving this mess :doh:

[eddie]

I don't suppose the great Arab Spring had anything to do with it. I mean it worked so well every where else in the ME!:hmmm:

[ikalugin]

The reason why refugees do not go to Russia is because:
- Russia is far away.
- Russia does not provide much in terms of social security to refugees and/or illegal immigrants.

So pull and push factors wise Russia is not where your generic ME person would run to.

Now, Ukraine is a country with a large territory, agreeable government, fertile land and displacable population. From EU perspective creating those camps right about now in Ukraine (ie outsourcing the issue), by promising EU membership instead (with all refugees quotas) can work I guess.

[ikalugin]

But you see it is not a war but a counter terrorism operation. Plus agricultural West is not really affected.

[ikalugin]

When considering things from EU perspective I tend to classify Russian interests secondary to EU interests. Isn't that how this should be done? Plus you miss some points:
- Outsourcing camps to Ukraine would lift responsibility from the EU (provided EU funds them).
- Because those camps would be in Ukraine and you would move refugees families from the EU to their relatives in the camps (not sure if you could legally though) this would lift some of the immigration issues.
- Because they are in Ukraine (and Ukraine is not the least corrupt state of Europe) they would see very little incentive to run to Europe, even with future resettlement quotas to Old EU members promised. This reduces pull factor.
- You could later use this as an excuse to resettle those people locally, with allocation of farmland.

All of the above could be done by promising, not giving the EU status and maybe some minor key investment programs into food/agricultural industry.

[Schroeder]

So right now our best shot of stopping this mess are the Russians which will keep Assad on the throne which is counter productive to solving this mess :doh:
Actually I think a Russian invasion would be the only thing to stop the madness in the short term and should be seen as salvation. But our own politicians would start crying again and put up sanctions and whatnot....
I have a very unpopular opinion here in Germany and that is to support Assad. Not because he's a nice guy, he actually is a mass murderer that should be drowned in pig feces but I think all alternatives to him are even worse for Syria and the rest of the world. So I would actually welcome Russian action in Syria.

[mapuc]

Aye, he probably is the lesser of two evils there. It would be nice if a new government could be formed, but I think the time for that has long passed and Assad is the only viable option.
I don't think Russia would go all in though, their supply lines would be difficult to maintain without getting the nod from Turkey. So they'll just do what they normally do, unleash the 'little green men' at them. :03:

According to some Danish expert a Russian intervention will get the situation even worse than it already is and it could destablize the region

This was some of the thing he said, when the journalist asked him about the rumours* about Russian forces fighting for Assad.

Markus

* Putin has confirmed there are Russian soldiers in Syria. Therefor it isn't a rumour anymore

[ikalugin]

The lesser of two evills for you. We have learned in Afghanistan the hard way what it takes to build a government that holds until supplies run out with external opposition (and there is external opposition to Assad regime).

We are not doing it again, as in medium term we would be stuck in Central Asia and Ukraine if nowhere else.

[Bubblehead1980]

Ok, what's the solution then? Put them back into Syria? Might as well just give half of them to Daesh if you do that.



Do you possess any shred of human decency in your body? :hmmm:

Sure I do.This has nothing to do with decency or having a heart.This is about proper preservation of nations and not taking in the strays of the world because they have a hard luck story.Ignoring emotions(never will make proper decisions when influenced by emotion ie thinking with ones heart) and looking at this as a realist.Yes, it is sad what is happening in Syria but it does not give these people the right to flood into other countries and they certainly have no right to get angry, protest, clash with police etc because things are not going how they want.

Fact is the world is overcrowded and because of the third world it continues to be so, breeding like animals really.Borders are more important than even to, keep us from the disease etc(look what happened when all the illegal children from south america flooded the us last summer.Suddenly childhood diseases began to spring up everywhere, no coincidence as many of these children came from cesspools with little to no proper healthcare.Really is a sad situation but we must protect our own(legal citizens) and look after our part of the world first.Over time they will figure it out or maybe not, but not our problem.

Bleeding hearts such yourself are the problem in Europe and in the US, ignoring facts of crime, overcrowding, terrorism, debt, dwindling resources in the name of so called "decency".

Insult to injury, the theft(taxes) the government takes from me will pay for the 8,000 Syrians we take in, SMH.

Just waiting for when another attack happens and people act shocked that it turns out to be someone taken in as a Syrian migrant.Whether it is one who already a jihadi and uses it as cover or one who is "angry" at the nation that took him because does not assimilate to his beliefs from dark ages or "oppresses" him lol. This will happen, can bank on it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Certainly one of the by-products of Indian and Pakistani emigration to the UK from the 1940s to the 1970s was a curry house on every avenue.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03416/curry_3416129b.jpg

Here in the US it's burritos and tacos. And thanks to the influx of Vietnamese refugees you can't swing a dead cat in Washington State without hitting a punny pho shop.

http://i.imgur.com/vdxg6.jpg


So, Germany get ready for kebab and kibbeh in you national diet, if you haven't already.



Yes, sad part is these immigrants get business loans from the government(my tax money) to start all the pho places meanwhile people like my father(his business nearly collapsed during the recession) could not get one.Favoring outsiders over US citizens? sad days. Luckily, he found an investor and things are back on track.

[mapuc]

On a Danish news side I read following

The conservative(C) who's a supporting party to the Government has said Denmark should send not only F-16 to bomb IS, but also special forces to protect civilians in Syria-which mean engage IS, Assad's soldiers and other fighting units in Syria, if they are a threat to civilians.

When I read it, I thought.

Russian soldiers are in Syria and now perhaps Danish Special forces

Not a good cocktail.

Edit. Since Sunday afternoon about 1300 Refugees and Immigrant has crossed the German-Danish Border. It's a little kind of Crisis here in Denmark. Most of them are heading for Sweden. About 500 has vanished, can't be found by the Danish police.


Markus

[Bubblehead1980]

On a Danish news side I read following

The conservative(C) who's a supporting party to the Government has said Denmark should send not only F-16 to bomb IS, but also special forces to protect civilians in Syria-which mean engage IS, Assad's soldiers and other fighting units in Syria, if they are a threat to civilians.

When I read it, I thought.

Russian soldiers are in Syria and now perhaps Danish Special forces

Not a good cocktail.

Edit. Since Sunday afternoon about 1300 Refugees and Immigrant has crossed the German-Danish Border. It's a little kind of Crisis here in Denmark. Most of them are heading for Sweden. About 500 has vanished, can't be found by the Danish police.


Markus

Muslin Trojan horses . The wests naivete and kindness will be our end.

[Aktungbby]

Are we not heading to wards this thread ?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215404

After have read Aktungbby latest post I start to wonder if we are heading to wards the thread about IS

Or is it me who is wrong.

MarkusYour not wrong at all; the threads are interwoven and interrelated. ISIS and the vacuum situation in Syria and Iraq have promulgated the Islamic Volksmarch into Europe. Half of the refugees are Syrian.

Well, it's all much of a muchness really. This thread is caused by that thread, and we don't have a solution for either.

:agree::sign_yeah:http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/09/08/438539779/the-migrant-crisis-by-the-numbers (http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/09/08/438539779/the-migrant-crisis-by-the-numbers)

Muslin Trojan horses . The wests naivete and kindness will be our end.
Precisely! It's the worst case scenario; rule 1 of security: if you can think of it...the bad guys already have! Essentially a made to order situation to place 'sleeper' radical jihadists' in the West. Taliban and ISIS militants are not noted for missing opportunity.

[CCIP]

And I still ask you to try and replace "Muslim/Islamic" with "Jewish" in your grammar sometimes and see which side here sounds more like they're about to embark on a "Volksmarsch" here. Because to me that's pretty obvious, and the rhetoric is frighteningly the same, down to the metaphors and word choices.

[mapuc]

A FB friend posted an Italian article-which I didn't undertand a word of.

Here told me the article are saying

The Balkans is the main route now. 1.5mio is/could be on the way.

Here's the article

http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/mondo/15-milioni-immigrati-sono-arrivo-dai-balcani-1168360.html

Markus

[Buddahaid]

And I still ask you to try and replace "Muslim/Islamic" with "Jewish" in your grammar sometimes and see which side here sounds more like they're about to embark on a "Volksmarsch" here. Because to me that's pretty obvious, and the rhetoric is frighteningly the same, down to the metaphors and word choices.

Not really the same as I don't recall reading about a ISIS style Jewish juggernaut trying to take over Europe but your point is taken.

[HunterICX]

Not really the same as I don't recall reading about a ISIS style Jewish juggernaut trying to take over Europe but your point is taken.

Well, you're about 70-80 years overdue and didn't live in Germany at that time, but as Oberon posted you'll probably could read that vile crap by that Mr Ford.

[Buddahaid]

Really? An armed and radical Jewish army beheading people, including other Jews, that caused waves of people fleeing to Europe that would also include a small but deadly amount of extremists? I do believe this is a different animal but the stripes are similar.

[Rockstar]

As much as some Europeans here like to immediately equate any anti-immigration speak to nazism. You best get to work in your own union pretty dang quick and not worry so much about semantics or America becoming the 4th empire.

The E.U. better find solution really dang quick becuase there is a dramatic increase in anti-immigration parties rising up in Germany, the U.K., Sweden, Finland, Hungary and Austria. Because as Orban said you dont have 150,000 migrants arriving in Europe... you dont have 500,000 entering Europe. There are tens of millions, an endless supply of them from Syria alone. And they seem to be just walking right in and making themselves at home. Thats going to spell big trouble for years to come if you dont get a handle on this.

So dont worry about us Americans, what scares us is that we know how some over there are so easily mesmerized by unknown paper hangers. All thats needed to set Europe ablaze again is a scapegoat, such millions of illegal immigrants flooding borders unabated.

[Aktungbby]

Your not wrong at all; the threads are interwoven and interrelated. ISIS and the vacuum situation in Syria and Iraq have promulgated the Islamic Volksmarch into Europe. Half of the refugees are Syrian. Precisely! It's the worst case scenario; rule 1 of security: if you can think of it...the bad guys already have! Essentially a made to order situation to place 'sleeper' radical jihadists' in the West. Taliban and ISIS militants are not noted for missing opportunity.


And I still ask you to try and replace "Muslim/Islamic" with "Jewish" in your grammar sometimes and see which side here sounds more like they're about to embark on a "Volksmarsch" here. Because to me that's pretty obvious, and the rhetoric is frighteningly the same, down to the metaphors and word choices.I wasn't being insulting; just stating the case in reverse from the Germanic Volksmarch migrations centuries ago...now predominantly Islamic through the Balkans and Italy with thousands waiting on Lesbos....

Aye, never thought I'd see the US turn into the Fourth Reich... :doh:

Not really the same as I don't recall reading about a ISIS style Jewish juggernaut trying to take over Europe but your point is taken. Upon re-consideration, I think I'll stick with my point, as expressed here, in light of last April 16, which left me pretty unnerved. All refugees are clearly NOT equal enroute to the promised land... and the Sub-Saharan Muslims cannot be the only ones harboring hardwired Koranic anti-infidel feelings now massing on Europe.:nope: "...15 Muslim asylum-seekers reportedly threw 12 Christian asylum-seekers overboard as they made their way from Libya to Sicily this week. “We only pray to Allah here,” the men said, according to others on the boat who said they clung together to protect the remaining Christians from being victims of religiously motivated murder at sea". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/11542320/Italy-accused-of-bringing-in-Islamist-terrorists-after-Christians-thrown-into-sea.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/11542320/Italy-accused-of-bringing-in-Islamist-terrorists-after-Christians-thrown-into-sea.html) Like a miracle of transformation of old theocratic baggage will occur when their feet trod Europe's 'enlightened soil!!!??...I think not!

[CCIP]

That's actually a brilliant example of precisely the same type of propaganda techniques that I alluded to. I'm again wondering how this parallel is not apparent.

[CCIP]

Believe me, it's one of my biggest frustrations with the modern world. Thank God for the medication, that's all I can say. :yep:

Tell me about it :dead:

Seriously, I want to know what the objective difference is between posting that and posting this, especially if you replace "Jew" with "Muslim" and "Rabbi" with "Imam" etc. Goebbels would be proud.

http://i.imgur.com/IcPi9Rh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/X3nND9Z.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/YEY4UcP.jpg

Sure creeps me out.

[Dan D]

https://twitter.com/thomas_wiegold/statuses/641679549026160640
"Russian troops join combat in Syria - sources - Reuters"

[Fish]

There is a movement to shame the rich Gulf States into accepting some of these refugees. Here you have the crowded nations of Europe with a Christian or secular history taking in millions of Muslims while their rich Muslim neighbors look away. So much for brotherly Islamic values.

Saudi Arabia is a huge, empty country, much of it desert, certainly, but it supports 27 million people with a per capita GDP of more than $31,000. The United Arab Emirates is smaller, but it is also awash in oil wealth and could take a significant number. And the overflow of Syrian refugees that aren’t resettled in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the UAE could be settled, with Gulf money, in other huge, empty Arab countries, like Algeria and Sudan. The 22 member states of the Arab League cover 5 million square miles. Surely, somewhere in there they can find space for displaced Syrians. But, I think they are only too glad to see them moving on.

I suspect as with the decades-old Palestinian refugee problem, Saudi Arabia and the rest will talk the talk, but balk at the walk. The only exception being poor, over-burdened Jordan.

Exactly.

[Schroeder]

Welcome back Fish.:salute:

https://twitter.com/thomas_wiegold/statuses/641679549026160640
"Russian troops join combat in Syria - sources - Reuters"
We can only hope. That would be the best that could happen for everyone, well except DAESH that is.

[CCIP]

Well, like I keep mentioning, there are other forces at play in Mideast politics that I think West often fails to appreciate properly. Some of them are purely political, in some cases nationalist or even tribal. While the West complains about religion, the Gulf states, paradoxically, are probably more concerned about letting in large numbers of Arabs raised under Baathist regimes and who, whether they supported the regimes or not, likely have socialist leanings. After having seen the Arab Spring (and arguably having dodged a bullet from it), the Arab states are all too conscious of the consequences.

Imagine being a Syrian refugee trying to save your family, with the press in the West complaining how you're far too much of a traditional Islamist to be tolerated without risk, while Arab states look at you and say you're not traditional enough and are far too socialist to not be a danger to their social order. Nice life, isn't it?

[mapuc]

https://twitter.com/thomas_wiegold/statuses/641679549026160640
"Russian troops join combat in Syria - sources - Reuters"


Where will it end ?

The article made me think of USA's more and more involvement in south Vietnam.

Markus

[Dan D]

Exclusive: Russian troops join combat in Syria - sources


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/10/us-mideast-crisis-syria-exclusive-idUSKCN0R91H720150910

Topic needs probably its own thread.

[Rockstar]

You know I was wondering why it seems out of all of the E.U. members Germany, without even blinking, was taking in so many refugees. From what I was reading some think Germany's low birth rates and declining labor force is a concern and this is one way to bolster its future enconomy and place in the Union.

[ikalugin]

Well, what we could consider the worst case scenario? I would say that it is:
- early reproduction.
- near total participation of female population in said reproduction.
- 6 kids per mother surviving to reproductive age.
- continued high rates of emigration.

This, provided total emigration of 5m, 3 generations with 25 times sub population growth could provide population in Germany within 3 generations, ie in 60 years. This is ofc very hypotheoretical and unlikely to actually occur.

[ikalugin]

In the other news - recent arrival of BTR82 series (amongst other things) to Syria is a part of arms sale, which was payed by Syria from the advanced payment for S300PMU2 systems they have ordered before but which would not be delivered.

I guess priorities have changed since the S300 contract was sighned.

[Betonov]

Size of family is economic, not cultural.
First gen would have 6 children, 2nd gen maybe 3 or four, 3rd gen would fall to Euro average.

Decadence is death to tradition.

[Rockstar]

Can't help but think that might backfire on them in the long term, not so much in regards to the refugees themselves and some elaborate scheme to take over Europe, but in regards to the PEGIDA crowd and the xenophobes getting more and more restless. :hmmm:


Unfortunetaly I think it may backfire.

We've seen it here in the United States, case in point Miami, FL. After Mariel 1 and 2 that city has changed. In one way they assimilated into a capitalistic society quite well, enjoying freedom and success they never had in Castros Cuba. But they did not give up much if any of their Cuban identity or language, infact nowadays nothing about the Greater Miami area ressembles old Florida and is now commonly referred to Northern Cuba. But the U.S. has the luxury of land mass and can absorb such things and not even flinch.

On the otherhand Germany and other european countries dont have the luxury. I dont expect such a vast number of people to assimilate and become good Germans, Finns, Swedes or whatever. Instead they, like the Cubans, will desire to retain their identity and language which will not just change the face of a city but the tiny little euro nation they just moved into and that me thinks will cause things to really heat up.

[mapuc]

So any thoughts about a buffert-zone near the border to Turkey, is far far away now ?

Markus

[ikalugin]

Size of family is economic, not cultural.
First gen would have 6 children, 2nd gen maybe 3 or four, 3rd gen would fall to Euro average.

Decadence is death to tradition.
This worst case scenario implies low level of economical welfare that leads to reactionary position, coupled with high level of healthcare and most basic social safety net.

Ie conditions that lead to both high birth rates and low mortality.

[mapuc]

I Put it here

The Danish PET-FBI

Have said it is a highly possibility that some IS-supporters are among those refugees who has crossed the Danish-German border

I don't know how to put it and I hope I'm wrong very wrong

I have a feeling that in the near future we are going to be witness to a simultaneous terror attack across Europe.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

Precisely! It's the worst case scenario; rule 1 of security: if you can think of it...the bad guys already have! Essentially a made to order situation to place 'sleeper' radical jihadists' in the West. Taliban and ISIS militants are not noted for missing opportunity.


I Put it here

The Danish PET-FBI

Have said it is a highly possibility that some IS-supporters are among those refugees who has crossed the Danish-German border

I don't know how to put it and I hope I'm wrong very wrong

I have a feeling that in the near future we are going to be witness to a simultaneous terror attack across Europe.

Markus
Don't tell me some Danish security guys actually agree with me! :timeout:

[mapuc]

^Thank you for your in-deep analysis

Why I wrote simultaneous is because of something I read in Danish news paper

From my memory

"Many high ranked officer has joined IS"

Therefore now they have officers that can help them do the planning and they

But said before I'm not an expert, I try to get a "whole picture" of IS from all the news I read and see on news program.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Muslin Trojan horses . The wests naivete and kindness will be our end.
Yep, she's just waiting to end Europe.

http://www.unhcr.org/thumb1/521612df2.jpg

Just look at her dark foreign eyes, full of hatred... burn Europe, burn!
Hope someone stops her...

[mapuc]

^ Nippelspanner

I'm not talking or have mentioned children in my posting in this and the other thread.

I'm talking about grown-up men and woman and not all of them.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

^ Nippelspanner

I'm not talking or have mentioned children in my posting in this and the other thread.

I'm talking about grown-up men and woman and not all of them.

Markus
I wasn't referring to whatever you said at all, just to what bubblehead spilled out about the West's naivety.

[Skybird]

My only comment for the German attitude on the current desaster, is this: Insanity.

http://german.about.com/library/blgzauberl.htm

If madness rules and all hope for reason is lost, when lies get worshipped and telling the truth makes you an enemy of the state, when people do not know and do not want to know who they are and where they came from but nevertheless waste all resources to run ever faster, then all you can do in your life is to find something that is yours, carefully hide it from all world, and make that your refugium where you can hold out. Glad the one is who not only sees the need to find such a thing, but who actually finds it indeed.

I am so much done with this German people and society and state and EU and all that political BS. I'm sick of it. Europe will get what it deserves, and it won't be pretty. The self-deconstruction is home-made, the cause is megalomania and self-glorification, denial of economic realities and incompetence in understanding the nature of finances.

It all reminds of the building of the tower of Babel, and how it ended. It was a just end, and I do not feel tempted anymore to try to help avoiding this justice. After all, the various concepts of justice all include the implication that a certain consequence suffered by or brought upon the deliquent, is deserved.

[HunterICX]

https://youtu.be/FOTyqAGvmsw?t=7

[mapuc]

And here we were thinking, that Saudi-Arabia wouldn't help in this refugees-crisis.

According to a Danish news paper-Saudi-Arabia Donates 200 mosques to Europe


Markus

[Schroeder]

And here we were thinking, that Saudi-Arabia wouldn't help in this refugees-crisis.

According to a Danish news paper-Saudi-Arabia Donates 200 mosques to Europe


Markus
Please tell me that's a joke.:/\\!!
:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

[mapuc]

Please tell me that's a joke.:/\\!!
:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!


Found an English version.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/saudi-offers-build-200-mosques-in-germany-for-syrian-refugees-605755.html

Seems like no joke.

Markus

[Moonlight]

Resistance is futile. :har:

[STEED]

Found an English version.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/saudi-offers-build-200-mosques-in-germany-for-syrian-refugees-605755.html

Seems like no joke.

Markus

Saudi Arabia has offered to build 200 mosques in Germany for Syrian refugees who have fled to Europe.

Sounds like Saudi Arabia has gone all Nimby. :hmmm:

Not In My Back Yard.

[STEED]

Eh, it's just an offer, Germany doesn't have to say yes. :03:

True, but why the offer? Nimby's. :) :03:

[mapuc]

Eh, it's just an offer, Germany doesn't have to say yes. :03:

I like this comment to the article

By Arun S
"Human can live without religion but, they can't live without food and water. You couldn't provide at least a peaceful environment to them. They lost everything, please understand what they need at this moment and behave with humanity."

[CCIP]

As I brought up before, this makes sense within the political contest. Whether or not they're supporters of Assad or Iran, and whether or not they want to go to Europe or they're just trying to escape somewhere safe - Saudis view Syrians as a tricky gamble. Their conclusion from the Arab Spring is that they don't want any people "spoiled" by socialism upsetting their traditionalist society. So hey, of course they're going to want to "traditionalize" them first - in Europe, preferably.

[Rockstar]

Let me guess our two crusaders for humanity are probably sipping tea and crumpets and the other indulging in some tapas and wine for a snack. Talking of great societies, peace, brotherly love, patience, and tolerance. Mocking those who are living something different than your own. Taking egreat exception to others frustration of crisis that is quickly turning into a complete 'Charlie Foxtrot'. They're nazis, mad I say, just look at them!

Just a reminder for you great humanitarians. BRITAIN, an island, closed the tunnel off and said it would only take in 20,000 Syrian refugees by the end of the current Parliament's term in 2020.

Spain, hardly an option for refugees since its surrounded by water and a mountain range. How many have made it to your shores? None. Only after being pressured has 'the city of hugs' taken in a mere 2,800 refugees.

Hardly the burden you seem expect others to bear with all brotherly love and tolerance. I imagine if either of your two countries were anticipating 800,000 refugees this year alone. You too would be frustrated ranting on about screwed up things are.

"God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes 'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues"

[Betonov]

Let me guess...

Don't. You'd only be wrong again.


About the Saudis and the mosques. Don't send any to Slovenia, the way our construction busineses operate, 2/3 of the bricks will end up in summer homes for the managers

[CCIP]

"God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes 'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues"

Wise words, you should apply them to yourself.

And as someone who's grown up in poverty in a collapsing country, and was then forced to leave it and can't even return to it for political reasons, believe me, I've walked the talk. And I don't know what country you assume I live in, because we have the highest proportion of foreign-born residents and citizens of any large state in the world. Or what contact I have with refugees and immigrants, considering I live in a neighbourhood that is predominantly Somali and Pakistani, and work with a lot of people from the Middle East at work - many of whom fled from places like Iran, Iraq, Palestine and Syria for reasons beyond their control. Let alone anything else you assume about my experience or place in life. Plus, I've not touched wine or any other alcohol for years now, nor have I ever had a crumpet :88)

Oh yes, I do indeed pity those poor, poor frustrated racists.

[Nippelspanner]

Wise words, you should apply them to yourself.
Exactly what I thought. :yep:

[Betonov]

Dr Pepper actually, and I had a nice kebab earlier. How about that for cross-cultural boundaries? :rock:

pfffffff, English kebab :O:
The best kebab is found in the 7 countries south of Austria :03:

[ikalugin]

On some other forum it was mentioned that EU may attempt to create a buffer zone in Med, to slow down the refugee flow.

What is the opinion regarding it here?

[ikalugin]

Realistically EU can soak up any likely refugee flow and absorb it, the problem could occur if that refugee flow was directed in it's entirety to some sort of small EU member, such as Norway.
Otherwise ethnic balance could not be radically changed, though ofc there is that nigh impossible worst case scenario where EU receives atleast 30+ m immigrants and those show african style birth rates with EU style mortality over 3 generations without being assimilated into local culture/way of life.

[CCIP]

I also agree that a flood of refugees is not sustainable and we need solutions other than just "let them in" - that's a very short-term "fix" if a fix at all. Yeah, this isn't going to be easy. But I think what's needed is responsible politics, not a kneejerk reaction to the "barbarian hordes" that are about to make Europe collapse or something.

[Rockstar]

Was doing some figerin'.

Germany is 137,847 square miles and is just a little smaller than the Great State of Montana which has an area of 147,042 square miles. Population wise Germany has 80.62 million people which is slightly more than California, Texas and Florida combined. Montana has a population of only 1.02 million

Dang its get tin crowded over there. Maybe you should move over here Skybird. There's still strong traditional German populations residing in Minnesota, Wisconsin and points in the mid west area. Everyone lives in a haus with a maus and if you live on the lake you can sail your boot too! And nobody will make fun of your accent, you'll fit right in. :D

[mapuc]

Here's a story from Denmark

We had a little refugees crisis-until the refugees found a direct way to Sweden.

Many known people went out to help these refugees and after they had done this they wrote about this on FB they wrote how good they are etc

Makes me wonder, why these people didn't do the right thing-travel to one of many refugees camp in the Middle east and help them down there-they are, in my perspective, people who are in desperate need.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Here's a story from Denmark

We had a little refugees crisis-until the refugees found a direct way to Sweden.

Many known people went out to help these refugees and after they had done this they wrote about this on FB they wrote how good they are etc

Makes me wonder, why these people didn't do the right thing-travel to one of many refugees camp in the Middle east and help them down there-they are, in my perspective, people who are in desperate need.

Markus

Because they are desparate, afraid, tired of war, poverty, and have strong desire to start a new life. I've witness such desparation the dangers and risks people attempted to overcome just to get to the land of the Super Walmart and Big Gulp. But when we caught them we still burned their boats and repatriated them. Even those who were 'feet dry' were rounded up and sent to detention centers, interogated to determine their status. Very few made it, the rest were sent back.

It sucks, buts thats the law.


btw who said we are running out of room? I know I said we have a huge land mass that buffers us from mass immigration such as Mariel 1 and 2,

[Rockstar]

Bubbles - "Sign should read NO VACANCY now.Not being inhumane, just can not take in every stray with a sad luck story in the world.US nor most European nations can."

Also "I am not an immigrant.True some ancestors were, long ago.Different time and world then, country needed people, now we are full, no room."


All one has to do is turn off the TV and hike through the Appalachian Trail to see with their own eyes how vast this country is.

Heck we're immigrants. Besides my dad, my brother and I are the first on his side of the family to have a surname. I welcome all immigrants just not the illegal ones. Do it right or go home we dont have room for 'illegal' immigrants.
Should also add I didnt mean to imply Miami today is a bad thing. Cuban immigrants made it into a vibrant, unique city. Wouldnt want to raise a family there but if I was still single thats the place to be.

[mapuc]

Just some month ago many refugees and immigrant seeked asylum in Denmark. Denmark and Sweden were the two country taking many of these.

Now when Denmark has cut the social-benefit with almost 50 % for newcomer and they have to wait a year before the can get a relative from the country where they are from.

The amount of refugees has got down a lot.

About 80-90 percentage of them who crossed the Danish-German border was on their way to Sweden and they did everything I mean everything to avoid being registered by the Danish Police.

Now Sweden has the highest social benefit for newcomers among the Scandinavian countries.

Makes one wonder.

Here's another thing. A Danish Journalist meet a group refugees who was walking on a Danish freeway.

He asked them way they was on the way to Sweden and these refugees said it strait-They avoid Denmark due to the low benefit and that they had to wait a whole year-

They know our social laws better than I do.

Markus

[Rockstar]

You're right our process needs work too. Our adopted daughter had to endure years of a hellish bereaucratic nightmare to finally gain her citizenship. Which is all the more reason I and others who have gone through it to say NO to illegal immigrantion and amnesty. Stand in line like the rest of us.

If I remember correctly whenever we came across illegal immigrants upon the high seas. Unless it was a weekend the Department of State usually didn't take long to order us to repatriate them. If however the immigrants made into the territorial seas or were feet dry. In those instances they were all detained and interogated /interviewed to determine their status, all were given the opportunity to state their case. But as I said before very few made past the interogation and were given a one way ticket back to thier homeland

My invitation to Skybird or anyone for that matter still stands. Just dont try sneaking over here or I'll have to git ma shootin' iron out. :)

[ikalugin]

I think that in terms of being conservative and vast you can't really compete.

[Torplexed]

Maybe we should grab some Syrians and see if we can resettle the American Chernobyl on the Detroit River. Cheap housing and you can keep all the zombies you shoot.

http://www.itsweird.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/abandoned-detroit-decrepit-neighbhorhood.jpg

[Rockstar]

well if you were an immigrant and you had a choice between the above in Detriot or allmannytta. You would be heading to Sweden like the rest.

[Onkel Neal]

Well said.



Dr Pepper actually, and I had a nice kebab earlier. How about that for cross-cultural boundaries? :rock:

Can't go wrong with the Doctor :up:

[ikalugin]

This discussion and some minor key research into the topic lead me to a certain book called "flashback". It's troll value cannot be understated.

[Skybird]

This thread is misnamed:

By the end of the year over one million - the population of a city like Cologne - will have arrivbed here, per million per year costing the equivaölent of one third of the German defense budget, around 11 billion minimum. Over here, expropriation of halls and houses and state-enforced renting of flats is discussed, the government denies that now since more and more criticism by non-socialists is being met. The federal states and counties are at their very limits or beyond with handling, organising and financing the immense input. Economists say the massive influx - with more millions wanting to come from Eritrea, Ethopia, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and all other places where they heard the story about the German sky that rains milk and honey for free - can only be paid for without inmcraisng the state debts if people work longer in their life and pension age gets pushed back by one or two years.

Its not Europe's migration problem, Neal. Its Germany's migration problem in the main. These people come to stay, and they seek not just shelter from war, but also better living conditions, at the same time many of them come from regions where they were socilaised by the highly politicised Arab form of Islam, and from states were they learnt to deeply mistrust corrupted civil order an state authority. Imagine what all that together means for the chances of "integration". Even more when you learn that the salafists, whose numbers have multiplied in past years in germany and who do extremely successful missionising in Germany, already have started to infiltrate refugee groups and camps and recruiting there.

BTW, the Saudi offer to build 200 mosques in germany, is older news over here, one week old or so, and as a matter of fact the original proposal by the Saudis sounded like a demand for being permitted to build them - with a threat of implying that not allowing that would be a crime against humanity. Primitive barbaric cynical bastards they are. You are still threatened with execution if as a traveller you go there with a bible for exclusively private use in your luggage.

Study the Roman empire, and how it was overrun in the 5th century when Germanic vasalls ended their loyalty to Rome and huge numbers of Germanic people moved southward in their escape from poverty and hunger. It finally overburdened the Roman culture and eroded its power of resistence from within. And gone was Rome. The present events compare to that in numerical scale, and meaning.

Germany bit more off than it can chew. Merkel, this FdJ-propaganda bitch that suffocates Germany since over ten years now, all by herself suddenly declared the Dublin rules as being temporarily invalid, (Dublin rules mean asylum seekers must register and file their request for asylum in the EU country where they first set foot onto EU soil). She did not even tell her sister party, the CSU in bavaria, before, which now is very seriously pissed and starts a real big rumble in the kitchen. Merkel kicked open the floodgates needlessly and in violation of valid EU legal standards and treaties, naively assuming she could close them at any time again when she wants that. Well, the internet she still understands to be a miraculous new technology, she said in a interview. She lives on the dark side of the moon.

Much of Orban's criticism - and mockery! - for Germany, is correct, his mockery is well-deserved. The opening of the floodgates is Germany'S fault indeed - and I fear there is no way we can recover from that. We should have followed the Norwegians' example - instead Merkel decided to follow the Swedish exmaple, and that was the worst choice possible, the Swedish attempt to deal with integrating the huge Muslim influx it allowed naively and prematurely, has failed on a spectacular level, giving them more and more hell at home. France, England, Holland, also struggled and failed to deal with this special issue that is unique not for all immoigration to Europe, but precisely with the Muslim immigration into Europe. I can fully understand the scepticism and stubborn resistence of the Easterneuropean nations and people. They have my sympathy on this issue, I think they are fully right. No wonder that Germany's claim to "lead" once again is rejected. They would be stupid if they would follow the German example.

Nobody has any right, there is no human right to move into another, foreign culture where historically grown communities have claimed land and home and exist since long, no right to enforce his way into them and then tell them: "Here I am, now you are obliged to deal with me." Such a right does not exist, it would mean the total denial of any right for private property and own identity. It is as if any stranger rings at your door and demands that from now on you let him live in one room of your flat. The decision to allow that, is yours, and exclusively yours, however - NO MATTER WHAT. The other's life is not your life, he does not own you, you do not owe to him by the mere fact alone that you exist- to think that would mean you think of yourself as somebody else's slave. Nor has the other any claim for the fruits of your labour, your efforts, your history, your decendance, your biography. Such "humk,an rgihts" do not exist. Their claimed content to me is a crime in itself.

Germans currently are drunk of themselves, wallowing in upspiking emotions. Merkel has suffocated us since one decade, her claim for mpower is the only purpose and aim of politcal deciison making, there are no principles beyonds that and all challengers and competitors who could disagree with here, have been eliminated already years ago, all political themes that once were the opposition'S, have been seized by her. There is nothing left beside and behind her, nothing. To now name this political style of pure opportunism and arbitrariness as "Merkelianism", indeed is justified. The result is mental stagnation and paralysis, we are happy to live by the illusion to be endlessly safe and endlessly happy. Of course that is an infantile self-deception. The constant state of emergrency over "We need to save the Euro", "We need to save the EU", "We need to save the Energiewende", "We need to save the climate", "We need to save the refugees", implies a collectivistic imperative that outlaws every opinion that is critically asking questions and does not fully agree that being part of the "we" is good and thus everybody not participating is bad, and that "saving" all that is the holy mission that is not to be put into question even if it is very clear that the task is too big to be shouldwered. This is in principle the essence of fascism. "Saving" has a positive connotation, and thus not wanting to participate in the "saving" turns you into a dubious outlaw and bad guy that gets demonised and chased through the media like a witch in some fanatical village's streets. Denial of reality, ignorration of the limits of what can be shouldered and can be done, are trump, rational thinking and sober assessment with a strong sense of realism is not wanted - to "feel" what must be done is what moves the crowds and masses. Mass hysteria, in other words. Empathy, if being ordered by superior authorities, always has this implication of being a totalitarian, suppressive thing, and it is no real empathy at all, but servile obedience to the state that especially Germans so strongly believe in - the more state, the better, if the German subordinate gets not strictly regulated by state authority at leats once a day, then he feels he lacks something vital, this poor submissive dog. It makes me sick. Two socialist dictatorships in germany within 70 years, two generations - and nothing being learnt, nothing remembered, now embracing the third socialist desaster unfolding, after Hitler-brown and Stalin-red now EU-multi-coloured. Stupid plebs. I dispise it.

This is my translation from the German original, excerpt of a work by one of Germany's past great spirits and poets, Friedrich Schiller, a man inspired by his love for and will to fight for freedom.:

"For the moral beauty of action, freedom of will is an inevitable precondition, but this freedom is easily destroyed in the very moment when virtue should be enforced by laws and penalties. The most noble prerogative of nature is to decide by and for itself and to do what is of goodness for the mere sake of goodness itself. No civil law shall demand and enforce loyalty to your friends, generosity for your enemies, thankfulness for your father and mother, since the ver ymonent such a demand is made, a free moral sentience turns into a construct of fear, into a slavish impulse. "

*****
The simple truth is: the more welcoming you make Europe for refugees, the more will come. The safer you make the journey, the more will come. The more you will to let your morals being turned against you and into a tool to blackmail your obedience to the events, the more will come. The more you delay and waver determined action to enforce a halt, the morer will come.

And if you allow your morals being turned into a tool to blackmail your obedience - what tells that about yourself? Nothing I would ever applaude you for, that much at least is certain.
*****

The longer this all last, the more the word will make the global round, and the more will come. Motivations will change. Were first escape from war and persecution was sought, newly formed and growing demands for higher living standards will replace those motivations. It already is the problem right now. Syrians in Iraq already claim the same motivation to now also move to Germany, like "refugees" from the Balkans - money.

60 million poeple currently are on the move, fleeing war. The German action ahs invited and motivated people in Eritrea, Ethopia, Sudan, Jemen, that until now had no real idea to move to Germany especially, or just to move to Europe at all. Add to those 60 milion war refugees several times as many that want to move to Europe and Germany for seeking just higher living conditions. And then go figure. Before you leave it to parroting ideological claims like "they have the right", and "we have a social(istic) responsibility", think twice. And then think again, and again, until you get it right. Both claims are wrong. For some of the disaster sin the world, we must share respnsibility, and ehre we have to help - locally, obviously, and only if we really can achieve somehting for the better. Ther arab revolution has backfired, so that definitely was a lousy idea. Still the solution cannot be to bring the middle east and its backwardly clture and habits to East Germany, or to culturally enrich the Alpine panorama with the towers of mosques where they belong as much as the dome of cologne belongs to the Nile (as long as the Saudis would not run amok), or to make 5.5 million Fins happy by sending 500 thousand Muslims to them.

The longer Germans deny the truth - the heavier the burden they will feel, the more drastic the consequences for ther Geman civil society and home culture and identity will be. And lets not be mistaken. We talk about millions wanting to come. MILLIONS and millions. Many activists and politicians still have not understood that.

The Middle East as we have known it for the past half of a century, is a thing of a past, it collapses under the mistakes made deacdes ago, and being renewed just years ago. We feel the revenge from the stupidity by which the war in 2003 was brought loose, and was implemented, without the total disempowerment of the Bathist party and the Sunni ethnicity in Iraq (Ifollowing the example of denazification) and their social deprivation of rights by the Shia corrupt regimes following, IS hardly would have been imaginable, and without the European arrogance to destabilise parts fo the Middle East by demanding it to follow Western - and not any less corrupted - government models, their would have been no "Arab Spring" nightmare. Half of the region is a battlefield, what remains in structure is under threat of collapsing, too, Israel is in danger of getting swept away by the self-dynamic of the change, too. And still we have nothing better to do than to criticise the Russians for assisting Assad, obviously Washington still thinks the battle against IS will fight itself. All Wetsern clever thinking about the egiuon, the high-flying plans both from Washington and Europe - they all have failed, and terribly so. Has anyone learnt from that to lower his voice? No. Still the same old paroles, still the same old demands that are so totally disconnected from the realities on the ground.

And while Germany must expect that millions (pluiral) are heading here over the coming years, it is being debated about cosmetic air strikes here and there that mean NOTHING in the big picture, and a big media coverage for conferences about whether or not 80,000 people shall be distributed amongst EU nations. We would be glad in Germany if only it were not more than 80,000.

No historically grown cultural identity can digest such a monumental influx without getting seriously changed and maybe eroded by it. But germans were taught after WWII to never like national pride and feel national identity anymore, never. So maybe this fate of self-denial and self-deconstruction indeed fits them right - as long as nobody looks back beyond 1933, the starting year of Geman history in modern German'S understanding. But when you realise that there were already many centuries of German history before 1933, then you see the losses of the many beautiful and remarkable things that German culture also had to offer, once. And then you can only cry. But that will be dealt with, too. German schools have started in several federal states to skip history lessons from the curriculum. Was man nicht weiß, das macht einen nicht heiß.

Sorry, no, I don't feel multiculturally enriched, not at all. I feel betrayed and robbed. To hell with this modern carricature of a "Germany".

It is ironic that despite earlier disagreements I have the impression that maybe only Rockstar really has an idea of what I am about.

Anyway, one long essay per year must serve enough these days. See you again in 2016.

Until then, this piece, although in German, is a real damn good read:
LINK: State-ordered empathy is BS (http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0038703)

[Rockstar]

Which immigrants were repatriated and which were allowed entry was a political decision. Everyone we came across Haitians, Chinese, Indian, Cuban etc etc claimed they were seeking asylum. However one must meet certain criteria for that to be allowed. Which was what the interogation was for, many questions were asked of them, very very few had the right answers.

However because of the U.S. political climate at the time and Cuba being a communist government. Cuban immigrants no matter where we found them were granted asylum. Until that is when I think it was President Clinton which put a stop to that. That decision only triggered a response of illegal human smuggling. When we found them at sea they were usually repatriated but if they made it feet dry, then welcome to America.

Interesting point Skybird made "many of them come from regions where they were socilaised by the highly politicised Arab form of Islam, and from states were they learnt to deeply mistrust corrupted civil order an state authority."

I saw this myself in the people groups we came across. The Cubans viewed authority with suspicion and distrust and tendened to be secretive, it was really hard to get any information from them. Indians (from India) seemed to just roll with whatever came their way always happy iit seemed. Chinese on the otherhand were one of the most rebellious and defiant lot we ever came across threatening to take over the ship or jump over the side if they didnt get their way.

I feel the pain Skybird. If I was in your shoes I'd be pissed off beyond measure too. Just dont go off half cocked and do something rash.

[CCIP]

Alas, poor Skybird! A xenophobe's suffering at the hands of war victims and refugees - truly unimaginable. Let's pray he doesn't go off his racket or we'll all be worse for it.

Is this really where our sympathies ought to be?

[mapuc]

A simple question to this picture and them who have added the extra text

Have this woman made any demand to wards her new country

E.g Only halal in school and remove the Christmas festival in the school

If she and other from her original country have made such demands-then she and the others should be kicked out of their new country.


I hear A LOT of this by the news and friends in Denmark and Sweden

Refugees and immigrants making demands

Such as Demanding school remove or forbid pork

Well to be honest-Mostly it is our own people in charge who remove these things.

And it is NOT every Muslim who makes demands a.s.o they become a good citizen.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Well when open border policy stopped so did a major portion of immigration. We I think had a pretty good handle on what was coming across. Heck we had the U.S. Navy, Coast Guard, Custom, and eyes in the sky. Coupled with good intel, choke points, known departure locations it was easy to maintain decent border secuirty. If anyone was going to make though it was those in fast boats going balls to the wall. But then they took the greatest risks because as we know speed kills and it did on more than one occasion.


Personally I think if you want to stop the crisis offer the refugees a ticket to Detroit, tell them they're on their own, no handouts, no benefits, no housing not even the ones pictured above unless they buy it. Germany's immigration crisis will come to a screeching halt. We could also stop supporting the overthrow of Assad because like I said before after 200,000 dead and 11 million refugees he's still there so we may want to rethink our strategy.

[Catfish]

As one of your prime ministers once said:
"Our island [sic!] is surrounded by the sea."

And at times, the channel is harder to cross, than the mediterranean.

Fear not, Great Britain :03:

[MGR1]

You've forgotten about the Channel Tunnel.

The more desperate amongst the migrants have been attempting to hang on to the top of the rolling stock as it goes through the Chunnel.

Naturally, they're have been a few fatalities.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COo1mSyWIAAPA4u.jpg:large

Shows they know bugger-all about heraldry /\ . The unicorn in the Times crest refers to the Scottish coat of arms, which features them.

Mike.

[Schroeder]

Alas, poor Skybird! A xenophobe's suffering at the hands of war victims and refugees - truly unimaginable. Let's pray he doesn't go off his racket or we'll all be worse for it.

Is this really where our sympathies ought to be?
This is not directly directed at CCIP but to the unconditional pro refugees movement here:
This attitude doesn't help either. I've seen enough of it. Whenever someone is voicing concerns regarding refugees he's belittled or labeled homophobic, racist, Nazi etc the list goes on. That's not a solution as much as some of you would like to see through the pink glasses (especially since none of you will have to bear the brunt of the masses of refugees). This mass immigration is going to change the face of Germany and seeing how well that went the first time we got millions of Muslims into the country I don't think it will change for the better. Just keep denying that there are problems with parallel societies, increased crime by some immigrants, open hostility towards our culture by some (not all but by enough). We can of course also pretend that no other nation had ever issues and the suburbs of Paris have never been on fire...just don't let anything interfere with the pink dreams....

You might not share Skybird's believes but the constant whitewashing regarding refugees and demonizing of everyone who has concerns is just as sickening as the mentality of the Nazis who want to send everyone straight back.
I see the need to help these people but I also see the big problems that will cause in the long run and those problems need to be addressed and discussed just as much as the immediate help these people need.

[Betonov]

Problem is he's not voicing concernes. He's raving about the death of civilization at the hands of the muslim hordes.
Those of us on this forum, so called ''moral crusaders'' already voiced concernes and added a few solution which unfortunately won't be implemented by the lazy elite.

I'm all for immigration but I also advocate ''one strike and you're out'' policy, complete assimilation when it comes to law of the land and a posibility to revoke a visa if the immigrant refuses to learn the official language, revocation of automatic citizenship for the child if both parents lack one (one should be enough though) but still give them education and benefits IF the parents pay taxes.
I'm a liberal nazi

[mapuc]

In the news an hour ago

"Payback time. According to some UN spokesman. Is the EU due to the low Help to the Community in the Middle East, is the cause of this refugee flow "
(Used Google translate and still I can't get it right)

Markus

[ikalugin]

I think that one of the core points that was mentioned here is the problem of minorities.

Ie, when you get a minority that demands concessions from the majority. Example of such demands that were mentioned is banning pork, christian festivals and so on.

While I understand the need to protect minorities from opression, I am not convinced that minoriy forcing it's practices on a majority is a trully democratic process.

[ikalugin]

The problem I see is in the synergy of, ehem, very active minorities (who are used to defend their interests, even by the force of arms) with pro-active minority rights activists who undermine attempts to conduct decisive policy (ie integration of those minorities into existing local customs and practices) in regard to those minorities.

[Rockstar]

IMO Skybird is simply pointing out the obvious. Throughout history groups of humanity have congregated in certain areas of the planet and established their own borders traditions, laws and languages.

The mass of immigrants such as the numbers heading for Germany I doubt are going to be any different and become Germans. They will do what everyone else has done. Congregate together maintain their language traditions, laws and establish their own borders/neighborhoods.

Same thing happens here in the U.S. We just have a lot of space to share which helps keep us from getting on each others nerves.

[Catfish]

How much immigrants would Saudi Arabia even offer shelter? Solidarity for their fellow muslims in need is a bit limited, or so it seems.
But they would have the space, the money and all possibilites to accommodate them, with their oil billions, and all those Princes with their private wealth.

But then, those countries do not look like preferred countries to flee to, i wonder why .. :03:

[MGR1]

EDIT: Aha, so Scottish migrants! ;)

Well, a recent survey did highlight that one third of Scots remain in the area they were born or brought up for the entirety of their lives. That means that the remaining two thirds move elsewhere, abroad, other areas of Scotland and, most annoyingly for English Nationalists, moving to England and making themselves at home and "taking over"....!:O:

I think that one of the core points that was mentioned here is the problem of minorities.

Ie, when you get a minority that demands concessions from the majority. Example of such demands that were mentioned is banning pork, christian festivals and so on.

While I understand the need to protect minorities from opression, I am not convinced that minoriy forcing it's practices on a majority is a trully democratic process.

A very valid point. Integration demands that both parties indulge in some "give and take". Where the newcomers won't budge from their own customs in any way, shape or form, that's when problems start.

Mike.:hmmm:

[ikalugin]

The problem is not only in not seeking compromise on the part of the new minorites, as some people in those minorities would always be agreable to a compromise of some sort and you could deport the rest for breaching the local laws and customs (ie extreme example being honor killings).

The problem is when your policy is frozen by the minority rights activists, who generate their own political capital by precluding enforcing local laws and customs and/or a decent compromise.

Which leads to:
Congregate together maintain their language traditions, laws and establish their own borders/neighborhoods.which (in it's extreme cases, for example should imigrants enforce a different law set such as sharia) is de-facto an invasion, as it displaces the local population, takes their territory and so on.

[CCIP]

See, that's what I don't get - there's all these scares about "immigrants coming in and changing laws to fit their culture", but I'm yet to see many substantive examples of that in law. Usually it's the opposite - see all the pushes to outlaw veils etc. The only two areas where I see religious law being allowed is 1) religious arbitration (e.g. allowing certain minorities to conduct things like family court, marriage and divorce, minor civil cases according to their customs); 2) education (religious schools). But those are the same rights that the religious majority has always had, or else goodbye Sunday schools and church weddings. Everything else is not law - schoolboards and government organizations might get zealous in enforcing political correctness, but fundamentally it's not law in any cases that I've seen. Things like food control/options? Purely a commercial choice - and they're controlled by voluntary business associations, not governments. I'd also remind that many other minorities have always had such organizations and pushed for similar rights in education and family law. I also remind that many foreign countries have always afforded similar rights to their minorities. If you look at Syria as it was, what you'll find is a lot of religious diversity and a complex minority picture. Many of these people are coming in precisely with that, and those most vulnerable aren't even from the dominant religion.

A lot of this is just hot air being blown by conservatives trying to instill a sense of fragility/entitlement on people that are neither fragile nor constitutionally entitled to have special protections for their collective ego.

[Betonov]

The Islamists that would want Europe to change their laws to suit them forget one thing. Same thing the paranoid people forget.

It takes 5 elections to prepare a law, let alone pass it !!!!!!
By this rate we will have Sharia in 2487.

[MGR1]

Weeelllll.....

That's Germany introduced "temporary" border controls and a 12 hour suspension of rail traffic between itself and Austria, in co-operation with the Austrian Government.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34239674

Mike.

[mapuc]

The Islamists that would want Europe to change their laws to suit them forget one thing. Same thing the paranoid people forget.

It takes 5 elections to prepare a law, let alone pass it !!!!!!
By this rate we will have Sharia in 2487.


Our famous bureaucratic

Which comes first Sharia-by election or as I have read now and then
- We will out-birth you just wait-postet by person with Muslim-like name(It could very well be fake-profile)

Fake or not-in 2007/8 in a Swedish or in a Danish newspaper-an article was about the different in birth rate between "our people" and refugees/immigrant-

Our own=1.6/8 Them 2.3/3.2

It is totally impossible to calculate when this could happen and if it ever will happen. There are so many factors, known and mostly unknown

Markus

[Aktungbby]

^ that link clarifies things http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/9784/production/_85488783_pic-3.png

[Betonov]

I'd avoid Albania too.
It's hard having almost nothing left and then have even that stolen away from you.

[Aktungbby]

The Islamists that would want Europe to change their laws to suit them forget one thing. Same thing the paranoid people forget.

It takes 5 elections to prepare a law, let alone pass it !!!!!!
By this rate we will have Sharia in 2487. By then, I in my cross-dressing Niqab,http://www.myemoticons.com/images/organization/religion/islam/muslim-woman.gif (http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticons/organization/religion/islam/muslim-woman-010667/) having acquired the Knack of bending my knees 5 times a day in prayer, will be humming along to a hastily reworked MY Sharia:
:O: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T71PGd-J0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T71PGd-J0)http://www.myemoticons.com/images/organization/religion/islam/god-is-great.gif (http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticons/organization/religion/islam/god-is-great-010660/)...BBY!

[ikalugin]

I would say that the issue is not with passing the laws now, the issue is ignoring the local laws and customs and introducing a paralel legal system. Now, this should not be possible, but the fear is that the liberal crowd would preclude enforcing the local laws and customs and removing the paralel legal system should it take hold.

In my opinion such fears have very little to be based upon, however EU has to get it's policy to solve the crisis apparent moving.

That said, seeing the world burn may be most amusing.

[ikalugin]

It may be OT, but what would a prepper do, when looking at possible mass kababification of his country?

[Rockstar]

So after all the hoopala this topic has generated. It basically boils down to war sucks and as long as its not my country taking in the massive flood of asylum seekers. The host nation just needs to stop being such paranoid xenophobes, deal with it and stop complaining.

about right?