Europe's migrant problem

[Julhelm]

Thus should we tarnish the remaining 85 to 75% for the crimes of the 15-25%? Yes, there is a problem, but you don't solve that problem by going Donald Trump and blaming 100% of them for the problem, you work with the 85-75% to catch, jail and if needs be, deport the 15-25%.
That's why the old phrase began, because people think in absolutes, powerful people, people with access to good media, and these people work on both sides of the coin, on our side and on theirs. I'm sure somewhere on the Islamic web there might well be a poor sap trying to persuade people that just because 15-25% of the western population think all Muslims are terrorists it doesn't mean that all of the western world hates Islam.
Admittedly, that poor sod is probably more likely to get killed for his troubles, I can thank our society that things haven't got that bad here. Once upon a time they were but we killed a lot of people to fix that. I have a feeling that the same thing will have to happen in the Muslim world before they straighten things out, and our meddling isn't going to help that.
If 25% of all muslims are western-hating radicals thats about 250+ million people we are talking about. Or slightly less than the entire US population.

[Nippelspanner]

Thus should we tarnish the remaining 85 to 75% for the crimes of the 15-25%? Yes, there is a problem, but you don't solve that problem by going Donald Trump and blaming 100% of them for the problem, you work with the 85-75% to catch, jail and if needs be, deport the 15-25%.
If I could chose, I would indeed prefer a Mulsim-free Germany - or rather, a Religion-free - but that is a different topic.

I didn't blame anyone for anything, except criminals committing crimes and my government, or rather Europe, to still open their arms, letting everyone in, even committing censorship.
There needs to be some sort of selection system, I wonder who had the brilliant idea to let all foreign "military aged men" enter Europe, for whatever reason.

A refugee is someone who has to flee his country because he would die there and can't fight back. So bring in the Women and children, take the best possible care of them for the time being - and as soon as this is over, send them HOME, no questions asked.
I don't see why a ~25yo male who complains about bad w-lan connections and "boring food" 3 times a day he neither worked or paid for, has any right to be here, let alone breath oxygen - another topic again.

And sorry, 85% "angels" or not, you can't save them all and while I would love to help those who need and deserve it, I won't accept putting the already fragile Europe at risk because we all must hold hands and talk together with people from an ideological background that preaches to destroy the western world, one way or another.
But yeah, let's not blame the 85% (or 75%!), let us just continue and endure what is going on.

Jesus, some German politicians (local level, not governmental) even said crap like "please don't rape" and how we have to teach them that rape isn't cool here. What!?

NO!

[Skybird]

The "radical minority" in Islam was not bred in a culture-free, non-Islamic vacuum. It is the result of cultural contexts which are to be held responsible. Islam IS radical.

Most Germans 80 years ago did not strangle a single Jew with their own hands. Many, probably a majoirty of Germans were not Nazis. Still, many Germans did not wish to have much to do with Jews, and today the vast and very unquestionable majority of Muslims wordwide dispise Jews and do not wish to have anything to do with them and do not want to live housedoor to housedoor with them, we know that from many emprical studies in many different Muslim and Western countries. So, still, Nazism and the terror it brought to the world, is of German origin. And Gemany and Germans have something to do with it. Even if not every German applauded the KZs. Or knew of their existence. The same way Islamic culture and society has to accept repsonsibility that radicalsm is not separated from it, but is bred in the very core and centre of Islam - by Islam itself.

This endlessly repeated discussion of that most Muslims are claimed to be peaceful and not radical, leads nowhere, and just should distract from the barbaric content of Islamic ideology and instead wants to declare it the victim and by that make it unavailable for crital views and criticism - all this ideology is at the very root of the problem. And that ideology all too often is not open to and is no question of interpretation, but indeed is explicitly resistant to being distorted by different ways of interpretation. Thats why Muhammad preached the way he did - to prevent right this. Strength (and his own rule) by totalitarian unity. Tolerance for different opinions and views, mutliculturalism, never was on his agenda. You live dangerous when disagreeing with Muhammad. Back then. And still so today.

[Nippelspanner]

I think you hit the nails head, Skybird.
Good example as well, it just makes sense - if one likes it or not.

[mapuc]

Should we treat every Muslim as radical then, just in case ? Better be safe then sorry, I think you say in some English speaking countries

Markus

[Tchocky]

The "radical minority" in Islam was not bred in a culture-free, non-Islamic vacuum. It is the result of cultural contexts which are to be held responsible. Islam IS radical.

Most Germans 80 years ago did not strangle a single Jew with their own hands. Many, probably a majoirty of Germans were not Nazis. Still, many Germans did not wish to have much to do with Jews, and today the vast and very unquestionable majority of Muslims wordwide dispise Jews and do not wish to have anything to do with them and do not want to live housedoor to housedoor with them, we know that from many emprical studies in many different Muslim and Western countries. So, still, Nazism and the terror it brought to the world, is of German origin. And Gemany and Germans have something to do with it. Even if not every German applauded the KZs. Or knew of their existence. The same way Islamic culture and society has to accept repsonsibility that radicalsm is not separated from it, but is bred in the very core and centre of Islam - by Islam itself.

This endlessly repeated discussion of that most Muslims are claimed to be peaceful and not radical, leads nowhere, and just should distract from the barbaric content of Islamic ideology and instead wants to declare it the victim and by that make it unavailable for crital views and criticism - all this ideology is at the very root of the problem. And that ideology all too often is not open to and is no question of interpretation, but indeed is explicitly resistant to being distorted by different ways of interpretation. Thats why Muhammad preached the way he did - to prevent right this. Strength (and his own rule) by totalitarian unity. Tolerance for different opinions and views, mutliculturalism, never was on his agenda. You live dangerous when disagreeing with Muhammad. Back then. And still so today.


Garbage Holocaust analogy aside - nothing of what you're saying squares against the fact that the overwhelming majority of victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims themselves.

Which easily gets rid of your overly simplistic "Islam is radical" explanation.

[Skybird]

Should we treat every Muslim as radical then, just in case ? Better be safe then sorry, I think you say in some English speaking countries

Markus
Most Germans survived WWII. A Denazification program was being run nevertheless: it was no genocide.

Stop allowing Muslims to weasel around, victimising themselves, and claim irrespoinsi8bility by telling lies about that what radcils do has nothing to do with Islam. That is like claiming Nazi Germany had nothing to do with German hisotry and German Zeitgeist of that era.

Westerners tend to avoid conflicts and challenges for a whole variety of the queerest and absurd fould excuses. In princple it always is about cowardice. But when you identify evil - you shall not sweet-talk and weasel around it, and make compromises. You confront it and call it by its names. And if it then starts to balk, howl and bite - bite back stronger.

Troubles, troubles, troubles. We must stop always trying to arrange ourselves with them. The problem is an ideology and its content and claim, and this is what we need to understand, fight against, and bring down at least within the realms of our own home countries.

Which is our natural right, btw.

[Rockstar]

Its absurd to think Skybird is calling for anyone to take up arms. Like anyone else here he's concerned most about those things close to him. He is I think just trying to say "recognize what the culture of islam breeds see it for what it is and look at what it is doing to my country, city, neighborhood, etc. etc.".

I think he hit the nail on the head.

But as always the case, those who are far above the fray or far away from ground zero are usually the ones who cry the loudest for tolerance. This serves only to infuriate the ones having to deal with the consequences of their social engineering experiments.

Someone in German politics really needs to pull their head out of their arse and seriously consider stemming the flow of immigrants. Crime is skyrocketing neighborhoods are changing and those at ground zero are sick and tired of being chastised for being intolerant.

I dont think we would hear a peep out of Skybird if these immigrants assimilated and became productive citizens of Germany. But they're not, they're looking for hand outs and when there are idle hands there are idle minds and then you have serious problems.

[Dowly]

UPDATE!

Our glorious Prime Minister will not be giving his house to house asylum seekers.

He says that the location is too public (might that be because he announced his plans on live TV back in September?) and thus the safety of the asylum seekers cannot be guaranteed.

I know, right! Who would've guessed!?


On a lighter note, the company that supplies food to the asylum centers accidentally might have slipped some bacon in their goulash. :88)

[Betonov]

Bacon in goulash ??

[Dowly]

Bacon in goulash ??
That is what the company said in the article.

[Betonov]

That is what the company said in the article.

Must be a different recipee than what a traditional goulash here is :hmmm:

[Skybird]

No bacon in goulash, that simple.

1.5 kg cheap beef, and as much onions. No paprika vegetable! (only powder, both sweet and hot poweder needed), cayenne pepper, quite a lot of marjoram, solid amount of caraway, 2-4 bay leafs, salt, tomato paste. Pressure cooker, 45 minutes.

I love goulash, and its one of the few dishes I really excel in in preparing it, if I may believe my guests. In long ago times I often got asked for preparing right this, and no other dish.

Bacon. Tzzzz.... Schnapsidee...

[Betonov]

No bacon in goulash, that simple.

1.5 kg cheap beef, and as much onions. No paprika vegetable! (only powder, both sweet and hot poweder needed), cayenne pepper, quite a lot of marjoram, solid amount of caraway, 2-4 bay leafs, salt, tomato paste. Pressure cooker, 45 minutes.


Same recipee as we do it.
Only without cayenne pepper, although I myself would ad it.

Maybe they meant bolognese, media isn't good at correctly naming things.

[Nippelspanner]

Garbage Holocaust analogy aside
Why is it garbage in your opinion?

Which easily gets rid of your overly simplistic "Islam is radical" explanation.No... not at all? It doesn't matter who they target.
They are muslims causing trouble in the name of their religion.
It is a rather simple matter.
If Christians, no matter if Catholics or protestants or whatever, would run around blowing market places up and cutting heads off - in the name of the religion - would you not come to the conclusion that Christianity is radical?
Would you really just say "no, they are no real Christians!" when their holy book literally calls out to do such things?

[Nippelspanner]

Bacon in goulash ??
Yeah bacon in Gulasch!?
Totally!
Are you making it without it? Jesus Christ on a stick, that's blasphemy! :D
Try it, it really adds a lot! :yep:

[Dowly]

Maybe they meant bolognese, media isn't good at correctly naming things.
No, the company rep. mentions goulash. Ground beef goulash in which they add bacon normally.

In this case, one of the cooks had fallen ill, so they got a replacement... they just forgot to tell him/her to not add bacon this time. :)

(Besides, name me one thing you can't add bacon to! :hmph:)

[mapuc]

^ birthday cake

[Dowly]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f2/78/54/f278546feec2753b5ffd629d6b329222.jpg

[STEED]

^:o

[Betonov]

No, the company rep. mentions goulash. Ground beef goulash in which they add bacon normally.



I swear to god that's bolognese :)


Yeah bacon in Gulasch!?
Totally!
Are you making it without it? Jesus Christ on a stick, that's blasphemy! :D
Try it, it really adds a lot! :yep:

I put it in carbonara, bolognese and putanesca, but never goulasch.

[Nippelspanner]

Mapuc it's really simple: When in doubt... add bacon.

[Dowly]

I swear to god that's bolognese :)
We do have bolognese in Finland, and it's called bolognese.

As with any food, there are different variations. This in question is one of them.

To quote Sailor_Steve's undying words: I'm right and you're stupid. :hmph:

[Betonov]

We do have bolognese in Finland, and it's called bolognese.

As with any food, there are different variations. This in question is one of them.

To quote Sailor_Steve's undying words: I'm right and you're stupid. :hmph:

Goulasch won WW2 in Yugoslavia, so we're quite sensitive about it :O:

[Dowly]

Goulasch won WW2 in Yugoslavia, so we're quite sensitive about it :O:
FINE! Have your way! :hmph:

But I'm not talking to you again!

[Schroeder]

Begun, the Goulash wars have.
So we should scare the migrants away with bacon Goulash?:doh: What was this thread about again?:06:

[Betonov]

So we should scare the migrants away with bacon Goulash?:doh: What was this thread about again?:06:

People that don't like bacon coming over here.

[Jimbuna]

So we should scare the migrants away with bacon Goulash?:doh: What was this thread about again?:06:

Curry? :yeah:

[STEED]

People that don't like bacon coming over here.

Are you suggesting I should nip down to Dover and eat bacon butty's?

https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/3/6/1362599991246/Bacon-sandwich-009.jpg

I will do my bit. :) :haha:

Image to large to post.
http://www.mrbreakfast.com/breakfast/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/bacon_butty_5.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

Great, now I'm hungry again! :shifty:

[Skybird]

Yeah bacon in Gulasch!?
Totally!
Are you making it without it? Jesus Christ on a stick, that's blasphemy! :D
Try it, it really adds a lot! :yep:Adding pollonium to a coca cola also "adds a lot".

[Jimbuna]

Great, now I'm hungry again! :shifty:

Hang on, I'll send a bratwurst over :)

[Nippelspanner]

Hang on, I'll send a bratwurst over :)
Oh that's alright, I helped myself with some Salami Pizza (with extra cheese, cause Pizza can't have too much cheese!)

[Rockstar]

Unfortunately new neighbors are something those at ground zero are just going to have to deal with. Because no matter what you percieve as the problem, no matter how much is brought to our attention here. Immigration is not going to stop until those who opened the door change their minds and close it.

As I previously suggested, until that door closes you either put bars on the doors or move to another location.

Good luck we're all rootin' for ya! :woot:

[Jimbuna]

Oh that's alright, I helped myself with some Salami Pizza (with extra cheese, cause Pizza can't have too much cheese!)

Too much cheese equals a 'Cheese Pie'.

[mapuc]

About this bacon and pork thing

Many Swedish and Danish citizens are or was angry when kindergarten, school, hospital etc removed pork from their menu or the dishes they served to people.

Many aimed their fury to wards the Muslims. The problem is as a Muslim once wrote in blog in a Danish news paper-We do not care what kind for food you Danish people eat-it is not us who demand this.

It's mainly our person in charge, who believe they are making Muslims a favor by removing those things.

Of course I can't say that there ain't no radical Muslim living in Denmark or Sweden who doesn't demand these thing removed.

Markus

[Skybird]

Some people think they sin if they eat pork, or meat from animals that did not suffer pain when beign slaughtered, other people think they eat a cookie that - once swallowed - by a miraculous metamorphosis transforms into the meat of a long dead zombie that has not yet but is planned to raise in the future.

Religion never fails to entertain. Any deity considering these things important no doubt must be a sadistic zombie pig then.

Leaves a foul taste in the mouth, doesn't it (pun intended).

[Nippelspanner]

I don't find this post very halal. :hmph:

Thread now Halal! :yeah:
(rather graphic...)

http://www.occupyforanimals.net/uploads/7/7/3/5/7735203/__1033838.jpg?409

[August]

Some people think they sin if they eat pork, or meat from animals that did not suffer pain when beign slaughtered, other people think they eat a cookie that - once swallowed - by a miraculous metamorphosis transforms into the meat of a long dead zombie that has not yet but is planned to raise in the future.

Religion never fails to entertain. Any deity considering these things important no doubt must be a sadistic zombie pig then.

Leaves a foul taste in the mouth, doesn't it (pun intended).

You have far less tolerance for your fellow man than those you hate which makes you worse than them in my book.

[Nippelspanner]

Pretty much every time I read one of your bigoted rants... :yep: You have far less tolerance for your fellow man than those you hate which makes you worse than them in my book.
I don't know, I don't always agree with him and his views might often be rather... extreme... but right now he simply states that he has no time for BS - at least that is how I picked it up and how I feel as well about religion in general, but especially about Islam.
One does not have to tolerate everyone or everything, that is nonsensical, especially when we speak about something that preaches hate and intolerance more than, I think, any other religion on this planet.
If you agree on this viewpoint or not is another topic, but for me, it has become very clear that Islam is indeed radical.

I see no reason to rant about Buddhism or even Christianity (that much), for there are no Buddhists roaming the streets shouting "Death to [insertwesterncountry]" or who bring nothing but crime into your, so far, ridiculously safe country (talking about Germany right now).

Do some research and then add 1 and 1 together. It isn't rocket science.
Imagine Scandinavia would see some sort of continental catastrophe and they had to seek refuge in the rest of Europe.
Predicted problems: 0.

Now we have an incredible huge amount of Muslims swarming Europe and one doesn't even know where to start fixing the problems they already caused. We have to waste time and resources to tell them "not to rape", beat up their women in the camps for whatever stupid reason or send their young daughters and sisters onto the streets for prostitution(!) as if this is something one should even have to talk about.
Their stupid book even tells them to beat up their women, and we talk about tolerance!? :/\\!!

But yeah, let's all hold hands and pray for the poor poor (certain type of!) refugees, because they SO give a damn about Europe besides what they can suck out of it!
Call it hate speech, fear mongering, racism, whatever - all you need to do is to look for yourself. And calling Muslims "your fellow man", I don't know August... ask them, how they see it - but since a Muslim mostly has two faces, of course you will only hear about peace and tolerance. :03:
After all, it is the Religion of Peace(™).
(Meanwhile in Nigeria, the middle East, Asia, ... duh. :stare:)

/fed. up.

[Betonov]

Some people think they sin if they eat pork, or meat from animals that did not suffer pain when beign slaughtered, other people think they eat a cookie that - once swallowed - by a miraculous metamorphosis transforms into the meat of a long dead zombie that has not yet but is planned to raise in the future.

Religion never fails to entertain. Any deity considering these things important no doubt must be a sadistic zombie pig then.

Leaves a foul taste in the mouth, doesn't it (pun intended).

You won't hear from me now when you'll rant about ''islam is violent'', now you acknowledged religions are BS in general.

[Schroeder]

Now we have an incredible huge amount of Muslims swarming Europe and one doesn't even know where to start fixing the problems they already caused. We have to waste time and resources to tell them "not to rape", beat up their women in the camps for whatever stupid reason or send their young daughters and sisters onto the streets for prostitution(!) as if this is something one should even have to talk about.
Their stupid book even tells them to beat up their women, and we talk about tolerance!? :/\\!!

Two 15 year old girls were just groped by "refugees" in my town. They were caught by the cops though and it was found out that they had given false details about who they were and where they were from....
Another guy was robbed at knife point by three young men who looked "southlandish"....

Thanks Ms. Merkel. We owe you!:yeah:

[Skybird]

My problem is not people eating pork-free magical cookies. In the silence of your private cabin, do and eat whatever you want as long as you do not mistreat you children and torture animals. In Asia, many people eat far worse things at times, and consider it the most normal thing in the world.

My problem is when I am demanded to pay respect to magical pork-free cookie-eating, and am expected to treat superstitious BS in the same accepting fashion like reason and ratio and logic.

Harry Potter's wand or claiming the existence of the FSM; "halal" or the sacrament - whats the difference.

Take all this away and delete it from human mind and history - and see how much better the life of billions would have been, and how much less brutality and war, suffering and torture, hate and intolerance, blindness and uneducation there w/could have been.

The devil grows in prayers.

You won't hear from me now when you'll rant about ''islam is violent'', now you acknowledged religions are BS in general.
Why your surprise? You could have known that since many years already.

[Betonov]

Why your surprise? You could have known that since many years already.

I'm not surprised. I knew you're an atheist.
I just wanted to hear it.

[Rockstar]

You should have read some of things he wrote here early on in the SUBSIM community. Skybird has mellowed in his old age.

[Betonov]

You should have read some of things he wrote here early on in the SUBSIM community. Skybird has mellowed in his old age.

Ideas take roots in ones mind.
Subsim may have infused some moderation into him.

[Rockstar]

Anyone offended these are being posted now? Surely the argument can be made its not all muslims. But when you think about it, if authorities need to start posting things like this around public places it's probably a sizable number of them.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/01/16/30C6DC7200000578-3426142-The_leaflets_in_public_swimming_pools_ask_migrants _not_to_wear_u-m-140_1454345361545.jpg

[Schroeder]

Isn't that the sort of rules that are posted at all swimming pools?

I certainly recall the whole 'No running, no bombing, no petting (:wah:)' rules. :hmmm:
There are three panels that urge the reader to respect women. We usually don't need to point that out.:shifty:

[Skybird]

So one side wants to enforce religion on countries...and the other side wants to enforce atheism on countries.

This is a good game. :yeah:
And then there is the third side - mine - that wants to enforce freedom from religion. That is a necessary game.

You should have read some of things he wrote here early on in the SUBSIM community. Skybird has mellowed in his old age.

Now I could almost snap. :O:

[Nippelspanner]

There are three panels that that urge the reader to respect women. We usually don't need to point that out.:shifty:
Exactly. Not an avid swimmer anymore but while I do recall the "no anything!" (welcome to Germany...) rules like running, jumping, clothing etc - I do not recall the need to tell people not to, you know, sexually harass others.

It is probably just a coincidence and has nothing at all to do with the huge influx of foreigners with a certain cultural background we had for decades now. :shifty:

Oh and Schroeder, the 2 girls in your town, let's just say they aren't alone.
Claudia Roth comes to mind.

http://www.zukunftskinder.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/einzef%C3%A4lle4.jpg

[u crank]

The law is the law, you break it, you get arrested and you go through the judicial system like anyone else. No greater or lesser emphasis should be placed on your case depending on your ethnicity, sex or religious beliefs.


Well said and common sense.

I would also agree with our German guys here. A country that is doing an immigrant the favor of allowing them safe haven should be under no obligation to accommodate their particular cultural differences. Give them food, shelter and medical aid yes. Change your own culture no. I think a simple statement for those seeking asylum should be if you will be offended by our culture and traditions perhaps this isn't the place for you.

[Nippelspanner]

Agreed, it's perfectly possible for someone to worship a religion and obey European law. People have done it for dozens, if not hundreds of years without major upset.
And then along came Islam...

[August]

Reading this thread makes me wish that the Baptists would set up shop next to Skybirds house and blast Gospel music at his windows non stop.

And i'm not even a Baptist!

[Schroeder]

Reading this thread makes me wish that the Baptists would set up shop next to Skybirds house and blast Gospel music at his windows non stop.

And i'm not even a Baptist!
The police would shut that down pretty quickly. ;)

[Nippelspanner]

Reading this thread makes me wish that the Baptists would set up shop next to Skybirds house and blast Gospel music at his windows non stop.

And i'm not even a Baptist!
Why? :hmmm:

[Betonov]

Why? :hmmm:

His religion was offended

[Rockstar]

Somebody call the morality police!

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2014/10/28/1227104/750600-42c273e4-5e3b-11e4-975b-09f9e3e8f101.jpg

[August]

Why? :hmmm:

Because Skybird can use some churching up... :yep:

[Nippelspanner]

Because Skybird can use some churching up... :yep:
Why? (Serious)

[August]

Why? (Serious)

Church is a place where tortured souls are supposed to seek solace and anyone as consistently angry and hateful as Skybird could use some of that.


IMO of course.

[Nippelspanner]

Church is a place where tortured souls are supposed to seek solace and anyone as consistently angry and hateful as Skybird could use some of that.


IMO of course.
And yet, religion causes nothing but problems for centuries. :har:

You don't need a church or religion to find peace.
What next? Atheists are immoral because they have no religion?

[August]

And yet, religion causes nothing but problems for centuries. :har:

Sorry but that's just not true. For every problem created there are a million solved both big and small, individual and community. Just because you blindly choose to focus solely upon the negative doesn't mean the good doesn't exist.

You don't need a church or religion to find peace.

You don't need a car to travel across the country either but it sure helps. Religion is a tool created to find peace. It's your choice whether you use it or not.

What next? Atheists are immoral because they have no religion?

Certainly not but judging by your comment Atheists do seem to have rather large chips on their shoulders.

[August]

I think that inner peace varies from person to person, and it can be either extremely easy or extremely hard to get. I think if people can get their inner peace through religion then all power to them, I think the problem comes when anyone tries to dictate to other people how they should live.
Note that this isn't a jab at August, but more at those types who say that it's their way or the highway, not those who say 'I think it would be a good idea if'. People who deal in absolutes in other words.
Besides, it's not just religion that's caused the pain and suffering, other ideologies have played their part, after all where was the religion in the Soviet Union and the millions who died in the gulags?
I think to blame religion is to blame the symptom rather than the cause, and that cause is human nature.


No jab taken Heck i'm not very religious anyways having been to church once in the past 40 years and that was only to take my wheelchair bound Mom to mass.

I think what religions detractors tend to miss is the institutions usefulness as a community organizational tool. Look at some of the things that my moms church does for it's parishioners. It provides child care, elder care, food and clothing banks, social events as well as advice and assistance on all manner of everyday issues from plumbing to cake recipes.

The world is a big and scary place to the individual. That's why it's human nature to form bands and tribes. Religion is just another version of that instinct.

[Nippelspanner]

[/I]Religion is a tool created to find peace.
Yes. And the moon is made of cheese! :yeah:

[Nippelspanner]

Heartwarming video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5L9SExquao) outta London.
Remember: "We are the problem, not religion." :up:

[Betonov]

Skybird needs a good trek trough the Alps.
You can't find peace in an establishment mired with corruption, scandals, kneeling, talking, preaching, hearing how you're going to burn in hell and then someone puts a bag infront of your face for tax free donations...

[HunterICX]

*Gasp*:o

I just realized, at work I'm surrounded by Muslims! :wah:
I'm doomed! They all have to be evil, they must be radicalized, they must have two faces and most likely lied to me, I talked about the Islam with them and probably by doing so I have been brainwashed at this point.

السلام عليكم

---

And yet, religion causes nothing but problems for centuries. :har:

So does ideology and patriotism/nationalism. Your point is?

You don't need a church or religion to find peace.Some do, some don't...

What next? Atheists are immoral because they have no religion?I don't know....I find some of them as loud, obnoxious as the religious people I take a dislike to and they seem to have the same annoying habbit of constantly repeating themselves over and over again.


The world is a big and scary place to the individual. That's why it's human nature to form bands and tribes. Religion is just another version of that instinct.Quoted for Truth.


+1

[Nippelspanner]

Indeed, its good to see the entire Muslim population of Earth walking through the streets there so we can easily blame all of them, its just so gosh darn convenient!
It isn't about convenience.
It is about reality.

Islam causes trouble, everywhere and on all levels.
Be it directly by being radical as in physically violent or passively by playing the always well working victim-card to pressure changes (http://www.pol-ag.de/html/islam-charta.html) inside European countries, starting harmless by pushing Lego to ban "Jabba's Palace" in Denmark because it "ridicules their mosques" (BS!) or demanding Islam-classes in German schools (surely just to educate our children early about the Religion of Peace(™) right?), the abuse of animals (by slaughtering them like "Allah wants it"), allowing "muslimic clothing (aka Burka!) and so on.
We do not talk about religion only here, I use the word ideology on purpose, since we also talk about the way of life, social order/structures and ethics - if you can call it that in this case.
Islam teaches, sorry, commands to spread out and assimilate countries and conquer it, one way or another and I struggle to see how some people still refuse to see that, despite all the evidence we gathered over the years, especially in 2014/15!

They even openly say it, how they will "breed" westerners out of Europe, which they are doing right now, btw. but let's just...ignore this.
And just because Kebab-Ali from around the corner won't jump in face yelling "Allahu Akbar!" doesn't mean that Islam itself is not bat****-radical!
I wonder, what else do you need to see all that?
How can you ignore this and act as if we talk about "a few guys who are pushing the boundaries a little"?

Am I so wrong, are my observations so unrealistic, am I just paranoid?
All cool then, let's just go on and let it happen, what could possibly go wrong, they are all so nice after all, I'm sure we can talk about everything... just remind them not to rape our girls on their way to school in the mean time (just happened here again I read this morning, yay!) - which they of course can't know better! Let's be tolerant and reach out!

Oh and talking about rape. You sure have heard of the completely racist and islamophobic© term "Rape of Sweden", haven't you?
What do you say to that?
Propaganda?
Wrong statistics?
Coincidence?

I read that ~77% of these crimes are committed by foreigners (so... muslims!) - who are a minority with 5% (FIVE).
But since we have to(?) respect their ****ty ideology, we can hardly blame them, after all they just follow their Prophet! :/\\!!

So yeah, let us just continue to waste time and get each other off in this awesome circle-jerk while news like I just mentioned happen again, again, again, again and again.
Let us focus on the important part - being politically correct because, seven Hells, we might have an inconvenient opinion.
Let's not waste any time with actually taking care of the problem at hand because Europe is in danger and the people of Europe can't trust or rely on their politicians at all anymore, as we can see - or am I wrong!?
Please tell me!

Why not:
1. CLOSE the borders, no more messing around, safety first!
2. Create camps in controlled and guarded areas where those who flee from terror, war and certain death can be helped.
3. Send those who break any law/commit any crime, major or minor back immediately, no questions asked. You had your chance buddy, now piss off!
4. Refuse those from any country that isn't a war zone, this is a sovereign country, not a free-for-all arena!
(Last time I checked MOROCCO was no war zone, unlike places in Cologne and Hamburg on new years eve!)

It may suck, it is unpleasant, but it also isn't rocket science and it is necessary and YES, I am very emotional about this by now!

[Skybird]

Whenever somebody gives me just most far-fetched and exaggerated extremes as an "argument", I realise that he has nothing to say that would base on reality.

The Alpine trek idea sounds tempting, even more since I am definitely no city lover. When I am in a forest and meet a pedestrian once an hour, I already consider the place as crowded. I mean who walks out into nature just to meet even more foreign people? I go into nature to get some relief from people - not to meet them.

[Betonov]

The Alpine trek idea sounds tempting, even more since I am definitely no city lover. When I am in a forest and meet a pedestrian once an hour, I already consider the place as crowded. I mean who walks out into nature just to meet even more foreign people? I go into nature to get some relief from people - not to meet them.

I found out that above 1200m sea level people become tolerable (at worst).
Under that height you meet and abundance of sport and health fanatics that are either judgmental of one's sub-cosmopolitan figure or preachy about how one should live to get their own figure. They don't go above 1200m though, too many ''don't give a damn'' hikers to notice them.
Don't worry, I hate humanity but even I find that mountain hikers are nice to meet.

[Onkel Neal]

It isn't about convenience.
It is about reality.

They even openly say it, how they will "breed" westerners out of Europe, which they are doing right now, btw. but let's just...ignore this.
And just because Kebab-Ali from around the corner won't jump in face yelling "Allahu Akbar!" doesn't mean that Islam itself is not bat****-radical!
I wonder, what else do you need to see all that?
How can you ignore this and act as if we talk about "a few guys who are pushing the boundaries a little"?

Am I so wrong, are my observations so unrealistic, am I just paranoid?
All cool then, let's just go on and let it happen, what could possibly go wrong, they are all so nice after all, I'm sure we can talk about everything... just remind them not to rape our girls on their way to school in the mean time (just happened here again I read this morning, yay!) - [I]which they of course can't know better! Let's be tolerant and reach out!



No, you are not paranoid or wrong. But like all problems, the solution must be achievable. I agree that there can be no good from mass immigration as we have been witnessing. That's the first step, get control of your borders, just as the US must do the same. The next stage will be to root out the radicals in the homelands. That is where the source of trouble is causing the problems of mass immigration. And that is going to require a very robust military operation, which I cannot imagine Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France, and Finland are capable of, in terms of political will.

Some think that when people of a very different culture settle in your homeland, they will learn your ways and fit in. Often they do, the US is famous for that and it produces a very positive outcome. But the "other" is not legally or morally bound to accept your ways. In fact, if they have a strong enough culture, and if they make up enough percentage, in a democratic country, they can require that you accept their culture, and even that you adopt their culture. It's all in the numbers, and the strength of will. And in our politically correct,, very soft societies..... does not look good.

[ikalugin]

I must admit, 400 million radicals though? Good thing we've got the Russians in this war I guess. :dead:
R for Russia.
R for Remove (kebab).

[Skybird]

The campaigning for Arabic becoming mandatory school language in Germany, slowly gains momentum over here. Not just for migrant children - for native German children as well.

[mapuc]

- We should understand that it is a different culture we are dealing with. To remove the child may cause her to be ostracized from her family

Said by some woman in a news program on Danish television, about the story that some grown men come along with their under aged wives. In Denmark, Sweden and Norway

In the political correctness name we approve this.(I don't)

Markus

[Rockstar]

Indeed, its good to see the entire Muslim population of Earth walking through the streets there so we can easily blame all of them, its just so gosh darn convenient!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m325lrnSfr1qf3hns.jpg

Nobody here is complaing about ALL the muslims in the world. Just the unabated flow of them walking down their streets.

[Rockstar]

Quote:
Islam causes trouble, everywhere and on all levels.


http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2014/yousafzai_postcard.jpg

AGREES

[Nippelspanner]

:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:
I said Islam causes trouble, not everyone who calls himself a muslim.

[mapuc]

I said Islam causes trouble, not everyone who calls himself a muslim.

And that's a huge different.

Markus

[HunterICX]

I said Islam causes trouble, not everyone who calls himself a muslim.

Can't call yourself a Muslim if you don't follow the religion of Islam, can't have one without the other.

[Schroeder]

OK, a simple question. How much trouble is an ethnic or cultural group allowed to cause before I'm allowed to see a problem and point it out?
Once 50% of all violent crime news involves "southlanders"? I think we're at that point already or even beyond so that's obviously not enough. So 75% perhaps? 90%? Where do you guys put the bar before you allow somebody to see a problem? Or isn't it allowed at all?:hmm2:

[Nippelspanner]

Can't call yourself a Muslim if you don't follow the religion of Islam, can't have one without the other.
That is my point.

Those who don't follow their book are hardly "muslims", are they?
The problem is the core ideology and those who try to press it onto the rest of the world, not those who may say "yeah I'm a muslim" (because they were raised that way and literally can't have a different point of view so easily) but don't act like the Quran commands.

@Schroeder,
I know you're asking with tongue in cheek, but we reached that "50%" thing quite a while ago and what says most about all of this is the FACT that media tries to hide the numbers and details.

Perfect example happened this morning, I mentioned how another girl was sexually assaulted in Germany, right?
First source I found very carefully made sure not to mention the perpetrator was "southlandish" - SPON by the way, oh surprise - while other sources I checked (because not mentioning this raised my suspicion) immediately confirmed what I suspected.
In Munich's subway we had another prime example of what has become daily business in our country:
Vor die Füße gespuckt, an den Po gefasst, gegen Scheibe geschlagen Demnach hat einer der drei Männer in der U1 Richtung Candidplatz einer älteren Frau aus München ohne erkennbaren Grund vor die Füße gespuckt. Als die gehbehinderte Dame und ihr Ehemann daraufhin aufstanden, habe er ihr an den Po gefasst und versucht, ihr ein Bein zu stellen. Anschließend setzten sich die beiden Herrschaften in ein anderes Abteil und erstatteten später Anzeige bei der Polizeiinspektion 32 in Grünwald.
Im U-Bahnwaggon gab sich der Mann, der die Dame bedrängt hatte nicht zufrieden, sprach eine junge Frau an und fasste ihr ins Haar. Nachdem sie ihm zu verstehen gab, sie in Ruhe zu lassen, schlug er gegen eine Fensterscheibe des Waggons. Das rief andere Fahrgäste auf den Plan, die daraufhin die Gruppe aufforderten, sich zu mäßigen.
Dann begann die Auseinandersetzung, die im Video zu sehen ist: Einer der drei Männer ging auf einen Fahrgast los, versuchte ihn zu schlagen und zu würgen. "Nur aufgrund couragierten Eingreifens weiterer Fahrgäste konnte die angespannte Situation entschärft werden.", beschreibt die Polizei die Situation.
(Source in German) (http://www.abendzeitung-muenchen.de/inhalt.youtube-video-aus-muenchen-u-bahn-attacke-das-geschah-davor-so-ging-es-weiter.062f0221-21b5-48a1-871b-a0f8267227a3.html) and one in English (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12135497/Migrants-attack-pensioners-who-stood-up-for-woman-they-were-harassing-on-Munich-metro.html)
Fortunately, the video isn't catching it all, so the Gutmenschen can start their usual BS and defend these poor young men who surely had good reasons to act like savages and their ideological background surely has nothing at all to do with this - or any of these incidents. :dead:

[Skybird]

OK, a simple question. How much trouble is an ethnic or cultural group allowed to cause before I'm allowed to see a problem and point it out?


Answer: LINK (German text, 2011) (http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0021379)


Das Gutmenschentum hat einen starken Einfluss auf die Themenwahl. Wenn eine Geschichtsdarstellung moralisch-pädagogischen Zwecken dient, sind bestimmte Themen erwünscht, andere noch zulässig, ein ganzes Spektrum ist fast tabu. Höchst erwünscht sind z. B. Themen, die ein einem schlechten Gewissen für deutsche und europäische Missetaten in der Vergangenheit förderlich sind. Der Nationalsozialismus ist deshalb in Deutschland eines der dominierenden Themen (Hitlers x, Hitlers y etc.) der populären Geschichtspräsentation. Aber auch Untaten des Westens allgemein sind sehr beliebt: die Sklaverei, die Auseinandersetzungen mit den Indianern Nordamerikas, der Imperialismus in Afrika, Kriege und Umweltzerstörung. Das „interne“ Sündenregister kommt nicht zu kurz: die Benachteiligung der Frauen, die Inquisition, die Hexenverfolgungen, die Ausbeutung der Arbeiter usw. Aus Schuldgefühlen sollen kompensatorische Handlungen von Spenden für Unicef bis zur Unterstützung von Antidiskriminierungsgesetzen entstehen. Erwünscht sind auch Beispiele für die frühere Überlegenheit anderer Kulturen gegenüber dem Westen, etwa die maurische Kultur in Spanien (ihre Schattenseiten werden ausgespart, die verheerenden Auswirkungen der Einfälle islamischer Piraten in Südfrankreich sind kein Thema), die Pracht des Mogul-Reiches in Indien oder die Errungenschaften des Alten China. Manche anderen Themen sind zwar aus Gutmenschen-Sicht nicht besonders nützlich, aber doch zulässig, etwa die Kultur der Römer oder die Geschichte der Renaissance. Die Auseinandersetzung mit einem ganzen Spektrum an sich interessanter Fragen ist dagegen „nicht hilfreich“ und spielt darum nur eine minimale Rolle.



Systematisch zu kurz kommen vor allem Vergleiche, die ein westliches Überlegenheitsgefühl bestärken könnten. Alles, was die Schuldgefühle mindern (etwa Imperialismus und Sklaverei in anderen Kulturen) oder sogar westliche Überlegenheitsgefühle fördern könnte, fällt in diese Kategorie. Dazu bringe ich unten Beispiele.


Das heikelste Gebiet sind mögliche Zusammenhänge zwischen Natur- und Kulturgeschichte. Ob die Neigung zum Krieg etwas mit angeborener Aggression zu tun hat und die wiederum ein Ergebnis natürlicher Ausleseprozesse ist, ist schon ein höchst fragwürdiges Thema. Absolut tabu („Biologismus“, „Rassismus“) ist dagegen schon die Fragestellung, ob es zwischen verschiedenen Ethnien erbliche Unterschiede gibt, die einen Einfluss auf ihre historische Entwicklung genommen haben könnten. Beschwörend wird immer wieder versichert, dass alle angeborenen Unterschiede rein äußerlich sind, auch wenn man Pygmäen und Chinesen vergleicht.


Die Behandlung der gewählten Themen ist natürlich auch von den pädagogischen Absichten der Autoren geprägt. Tendenziell tritt alles in den Hintergrund, was die häufig dargestellten westlichen Übeltaten relativieren könnte, etwa die Gewalttaten der Indianer gegen europäische Siedler (siehe Beispiel 1), oder die Vorzüge anderer Kulturen in Frage stellen könnte, etwa das Massaker von Granada an 4000 Juden im Jahr 1066 unter der ach so toleranten maurischen Herrschaft auf der iberischen Halbinsel.


In dieselbe Richtung wie das Gutmenschentum wirkt ein verbreiteter Mangel an vergleichenden Studien in der Geschichtswissenschaft. Ein Historiker spezialisiert sich in der Regel auf eine bestimmte Weltregion und einen bestimmten Zeitabschnitt, etwa Frankreich in der Frühen Neuzeit, und widmet diesem Gebiet sein gesamtes wissenschaftliches Leben. Nur wenige Forscher vergleichen die Entwicklungen an weit auseinander liegenden Orten zu ganz unterschiedlichen Zeiten, um herauszufinden, was überhaupt die Besonderheiten der einzelnen Kulturen und Epochen ausmacht und wie diese zu erklären sind. Dieser Mangel zeigt sich auch in populärwissenschaftlichen Darstellungen. In vielen Fällen ist schwer zu unterscheiden, ob die verengte Sicht moralisch-pädagogischen Absichten oder Unkenntnis geschuldet ist. Wie auch immer, Gutmenschentum und eine übermäßige wissenschaftliche Spezialisierung spielen sich gegenseitig in die Hände.


Fazit
Moralische Zwecke tun dem historischen Verständnis nicht weniger Abbruch als z. B. nationalistische Ziele. Die gut gemeinte Geschichtsvermittlung hat viel dazu beigetragen, dass gerade Bildungsbürger im Westen die Besonderheiten ihrer eigenen Kultur verkennen und nicht dazu in der Lage sind, die Errungenschaften vieler Jahrhunderte auch gegenüber Menschen nichtwestlicher Kulturen in der Welt überzeugend zu vertreten.
Note that in Germany history courses get systematically reduced and even completely deleted from school curricula. Educating the people to be uneducated and unable to think in historical comparison and contexts will be the necessary - and in my conviction wanted - result. The elites breed the people they want to have. Kaderschulung, this was called in both the GDR, and the Third Reich.

[Schroeder]

^Sounds plausible and is something I've noticed myself already some years ago. :-?

[Rockstar]

Can't call yourself a Muslim if you don't follow the religion of Islam, can't have one without the other.


Yes you most certainly can have one without the other. In many places in the world its looked upon as a hereditary issue. Just being born to christian or muslim parents makes you a christian or muslim. Even if you are too young to understand or an informed dissenter.

[ikalugin]

Some people deported from Norway tried to sexually assault women in one of the Murmansk nightclubs. Police saved them. The deporties that is.

[Schroeder]

It seems that Christian refugees from Syria and Iraq get frequently harassed and assaulted by Muslim refugees with whom they have to share housing.

German only:
http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bedraengte-christen-101.html

A Christian priest at the end of the video says that we should stop using Christian refugees as Guinea pigs for tolerance experiments which obviously don't work.

Religion of Peace...:/\\!!

[Skybird]

I'm questioning the Zeitgeist and mindset in the Scandinavian countries since long time already (don't take it personally, mapuc), but beside the abandoning of cash money to have every citizen being naked and defenceless in the face of state-run plundering, and a Swedish minister recommending Jews in Sweden to speak out against Israel in order to avoid getting mobbed and beaten up by Muslim gangs, this video no doubt is an alltime-highlight.

Fasten your seat-belts and pay attention everybody, you are about to learn how to protect yourself from getting raped. And no, this is no joke, but is meant bitterly serious - it is an education film run in Finnish state TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EQFcFQQo

I got reminded of Sandra Bullock in Demolition Man.

[Skybird]

Terror plot in Berlin just got spoiled, razzias in several German cities included hundreds of officers. Attackers hid in asylum camps, came in via the Balkan route. Multiple public targets in Berlin were planned to be bombed.

[Dowly]

Fasten your seat-belts and pay attention everybody, you are about to learn how to protect yourself from getting raped. And no, this is no joke, but is meant bitterly serious - it is an education film run in Finnish state TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EQFcFQQo

I got reminded of Sandra Bullock in Demolition Man.

YLE has really shown it's true colours during the crisis. They simply refuse to say a bad word about the asylum seekers. Gladly, we have other news services that report all the rapes and other disturbances they cause.

Nobody buys YLEs BS anymore.

At least our president seems to understand there is a problem:
http://www.presidentti.fi/Public/default.aspx?contentid=341376

[Nippelspanner]

KILL THEM ALL
I have yet to read a counter argument from you.

Do you think what I wrote earlier about closing the borders and processing the refugees more careful is wrong, considering how reports (despite censorship in many cases) clearly show you how bad the situation is?

Would you not say that there is an obvious connection between the crimes that are being committed and by whom?

What about the reason for migrants to commit more crimes and often sex-crimes? Coincidence?

And what if it is related to the Islamic ideology, should we not try to do something? If it isn't - what is the cause?

Should Europe's security not be more important?

I'd really like to know your point of view here...

[Schroeder]

KILL THEM ALL
Oh come on you can do better than that, seriously.:nope:
Nobody said anything about killing anybody as a solution.

What's your plan for the situation? Let everything continue as is? Watch crime rates skyrocketing and declare women fair game?

BTW Gas pistols and pepper spray are sold out in a lot of shops and used ones are sold for outlandish prices on the net....so you can see how safe the average finger at America for owning weapons pointing German feels these days.:/\\!!

[Skybird]

Whenever somebody gives me just most far-fetched and exaggerated extremes as an "argument", I realise that he has nothing to say that would base on reality.

. . .

[Dan D]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35478964

"The BBC has gathered evidence that Israel is sending unwanted African migrants to other countries under secretive deals which may be in breach of international law.

The Israeli government refuses to name the third countries involved in the deals, but the BBC has spoken to people who say they were sent to Rwanda and Uganda".

Israel is a signatory state to the UN Refugee Convention.

[Nippelspanner]

If you don't know my position by now I don't know when you ever will...but ok, here we are again.
You mostly wrote one liners without really saying much, I genuinely asked. But be assured, this time, your post did suffice.


Yes, Germany screwed up, took in too many migrants, no doubt there. Yes, some of them are breaking the law, no doubt there, and yes it probably does have a fair bit to do with different social atmospheres.
Does this mean that Islam is ebil (TM) not really, no. It means that some people are arseholes, and they deserve to be arrested and put into prison and/or deported.
Let's not forget why so many people are coming to Europe, because we've royally screwed over the Middle East, it's like we've kicked the ants nests and now we're complaining because the ants are upset and swarming.
So my position is that the EU should be doing more to settle these people, temporarily or otherwise, in a more spread out fashion across the organisation, or just accept the inevitable and disband the EU and give up on trying to co-ordinate any kind of organisation in Europe in order to remain a global power. The likes of Poland and Hungary should not be able to just wash their hands of the problem, if they want to be a part of the EU and reap the economic benefits of it then they should also do their part to help the EU in this crisis, otherwise what is the point of having the damn thing. Same thing goes for the UK, by the way, before anyone starts whinging about that too.
Some people are dicks, some are not. If you decide to treat all Muslims as dicks then you're going to hit those who consider themselves as moderates, those people who you think are 'Not Muslims' in the cross-fire. It's like deciding that all Christians are evil because of the actions of the KKK and the WBC, or that all Hindus are evil because of the actions of the RSS.
In short, if someone who is a Muslim molests a woman, arrest him, charge him and either imprison or deport him. But don't deport him, his friend down the road and all the other Muslims in the street because one guy was an idiot.
When it comes to taking more migrants though, yes, Germany has to stop now, I've already said that, Germany has done its share, let the rest of Europe pick up the pieces. The Schiegen agreement is going to have to be dropped and borders re-established, and designated quotas per country established. In the meantime somewhere is going to have to be cleared and camps created to house these people, Russia should help with this as well, and so should Eastern Europe. Heck, old vessels that are still sea-worthy could be recommissioned and organised into temporary shelters.
Someone in the EU needs to step up and start giving orders, but, sadly, since most of the EU parliament is staffed with Euro-sceptics, no-one is going to listen to those orders. So nothing is going to happen, and this situation is just going to continue getting worse, people are going to continue to blame the migrants, the right wing is going to continue to rise in power, and the future is ****.

Basically.

I wish to address the following.
"Yes, some of them are breaking the law, no doubt there, and yes it probably does have a fair bit to do with different social atmospheres."
Not some: Many. That is the problem. Sure, "some" and "many" are both relative terms, but there are numbers to clear that up.
The problem is, you will have 5 sources with 6 different statistics.
Coincidentally, the left papers always claim that the statistics are all wrong - while the right papers claim... that the statistics are all wrong.

For example, Spiegel Online - your "we all need to be friends!" paper claims that "Migrants commit more crimes!" is a lie - and statistics support that too, on first glance.
If you know how these statistics work however, you will quickly realize why this seems to be the case. In Germany, roughly 50% of the migrants do have German papers, so inside the statistics, they are counted as Germans - not Migrants... because that looks a tad nicer. ;)

So yes, migrants commit more crimes.

"Does this mean that Islam is ebil (TM) not really, no. It means that some people are arseholes"
I never said Islam is evil because migrants grope Women.I said Islam is evil because the Quran commands to act in a way that is simply not acceptable in our western civilization - which is a fact, is it not?

"Let's not forget why so many people are coming to Europe, because we've royally screwed over the Middle East"
Oh please. What exactly did I do to the middle east?
Is north North-Africa the middle east by the way?
Is Morocco at war?
Algeria?
Tunisia?

And for the ME,
Egypt?
Or did I turn Syria in into ruins?

Even if, I said let's help those who need it, more then once, however, we can not sacrifice everything we have because of the usual "evil European guilt-trip".
It is the same as the guilt-trip my country went through after WW2.
I had nothing to do with any of that, leave me alone.
Neither do I endorse or support the foreign politics of my country and I surely didn't want the US to start this mess in the middle east way back in the 80s, so I do not accept that Europe and therefore Germany, as we know it, have to bend-over for an ideology that makes no secret out of what it thinks about the western ways and what it would prefer instead.

I wouldn't say a single word, if the newspapers would not report about "southlandish-looking men" who commit on a daily basis. Daily, Oberon - that isn't [I]"some people are bumholes", that is a real problem, caused by people with a very certain cultural background. Meanwhile, the Christian refugees we have do not cause problems, on the contrary, they are constant targets of muslim aggression, as someone pointed out before I think.
Surely, another coincidence, let's not blame Islam. :03:

"It's like deciding that all Christians are evil because of the actions of the KKK and the WBC, or that all Hindus are evil because of the actions of the RSS."
No, it is nothing like that.
First of all, the bible and the Christian culture that has developed over time - contrary to Islam - doesn't command you to kill "wherever you find them", or to beat your wife or conquer the world - contrary to Islam.
Also, how much of a real problem is KKK [I]TODAY?
What matters is what happens now and tomorrow. I don't give a damn about some KKK freaks from half a century ago, they do not matter anymore, they aren't a problem - Islam is because every day(!) people murder and slaughter in the name of this ideology, fueled by hatred, consumed out of their most holy book. They only do what the Quran says - unlike those who do not, yet claim to be "muslim".

The fact that you speak of "moderate muslims" actually says it all.
There is no such thing, realistically speaking, like "moderate Buddhists" or "moderate Jews", and I wonder why? :hmm2:

"In short, if someone who is a Muslim molests a woman, arrest him, charge him and either imprison or deport him. But don't deport him, his friend down the road and all the other Muslims in the street because one guy was an idiot."
I didn't ask to do so.
As an atheist, I'd gladly see religion vanish one way or the other, especially Islam, but I didn't ask for this - so why bring it up?

I said Islam is evil, and I provided examples and facts to support this point of view that I do not expect you to share or agree on - just to accept without acting as if I'm some lunatic right wing sociopath when in reality, I could hardly be more left - and this isn't a joke, I am a complete "live and let live" person. Go marry your lawnmower, go be a hobo, a punk who refues to work because reasons, be a gay transgender martian, go to some church 3 times a day, I do not care - be happy, life is precious!

But my 'tolerance' ends however, when I am expected to tolerate someone or something that goes against everything our western values stand for and is nothing but a dangerous ideology, determined to conquer everything and everyone. Be it nazism or Islam, same **** to me, evil is evil and a "moderate muslim" who doesn't do anything his book says is no valid counter argument against my opinion that Islam itself is evil.


Closing, I agree with pretty much the rest of your post, I just wanted to address the above.
Both our viewpoints are clear by now, I guess.
I do not wish to pick a fight with you, and the near future will tell if I was just paranoid, or right.

[Schroeder]

@Oberon

I guess a year or two ago I would have supported your position. The problem with that is that we can only deport people who already have commit serious crimes here so the deeds are already done. We are importing huge amounts of crime and literally have to wait for it to happen before we can do anything about it. That means we'll see tens of thousands of felonies (and the victims of those) in the not so distant future and we're importing more every day. I don't like the idea of not helping people in need but if that means that we have to compromise our own safety then I say sorry, not going to happen (well, it actually HAS already happened....). And when the risk of becoming a victim to a member of the religion of peace is much higher than to become a victim to ANY OTHER ethnic or religious group then I think there is something severely wrong with that group/religion/culture and we should stop importing people from those countries and keep their influence here to a minimum for the sake of our own safety.

[Skybird]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35478964

"The BBC has gathered evidence that Israel is sending unwanted African migrants to other countries under secretive deals which may be in breach of international law.

The Israeli government refuses to name the third countries involved in the deals, but the BBC has spoken to people who say they were sent to Rwanda and Uganda".

Israel is a signatory state to the UN Refugee Convention.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-send-african-migrants-to-uganda/

From 2013.

"Uganda was revealed Thursday as the African country that will absorb migrants to be deported by Israel in the coming months.


On Wednesday, Interior Minister Gideon Sa’ar announced that Israel signed an agreement with an African country, which he did not name, that will accept migrants who choose to leave the country voluntarily.
The east African nation will shelter Eritrean migrants and act as a transit point for Sudanese people as they head back to their home country, the Interior Ministry said in a statement.

The effort to deport the migrants, set to begin in the coming weeks, will also target those who refuse to leave by clamping down on the conditions of their stay in Israel.

“In the first stage we will focus on raising awareness and information among the migrant population while also helping to make all the exit arrangements,” Sa’ar told the Knesset Internal Affairs and Environment Committee on Wednesday.

On Thursday, he said the migrants would be safe in the host country, and would be allowed to work there, and that the procedures for their departure from Israel had “been though all the necessary legal filters.”

Sa’ar noted that Israel will pay for the cost of the flights and provide a financial package that would take into consideration any money and property the migrants have accumulated during their time in the country.
The second stage of the plan will begin in earnest after the coming month of Jewish holidays in September, and will include a direct appeal to the migrants to leave of their own accord within a defined time period, Sa’ar told the Knesset panel. In addition, the state will begin taking action against those who refuse to go by no longer routinely extending their permits to stay in the country as well enforcing laws against the migrants who work and those who employ them.

(...)"

Its utopic to assume that a communtiy can digest just any influx of foreigners, no mmatter the numbers. Reality beats formality. Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better than Germans and other Euroists.

[Catfish]

I find it a bit funny .. just of all England does not want more immigrants, which is one (more) reason England wants to leave the EU, for not being obliged to accept more immigrants.. or do i get that wrong? :hmmm:

Also, which nations were so keen to get to Iraq, why don't they take the immigrants their very .. "influence" produced, all around the ME?

[Dan D]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-send-african-migrants-to-uganda/

From 2013.

"Uganda was revealed Thursday as the African country that will absorb migrants to be deported by Israel in the coming months.


On Wednesday, Interior Minister Gideon Sa’ar announced that Israel signed an agreement with an African country, which he did not name, that will accept migrants who choose to leave the country voluntarily.
The east African nation will shelter Eritrean migrants and act as a transit point for Sudanese people as they head back to their home country, the Interior Ministry said in a statement.

The effort to deport the migrants, set to begin in the coming weeks, will also target those who refuse to leave by clamping down on the conditions of their stay in Israel.

“In the first stage we will focus on raising awareness and information among the migrant population while also helping to make all the exit arrangements,” Sa’ar told the Knesset Internal Affairs and Environment Committee on Wednesday.

On Thursday, he said the migrants would be safe in the host country, and would be allowed to work there, and that the procedures for their departure from Israel had “been though all the necessary legal filters.”

Sa’ar noted that Israel will pay for the cost of the flights and provide a financial package that would take into consideration any money and property the migrants have accumulated during their time in the country.
The second stage of the plan will begin in earnest after the coming month of Jewish holidays in September, and will include a direct appeal to the migrants to leave of their own accord within a defined time period, Sa’ar told the Knesset panel. In addition, the state will begin taking action against those who refuse to go by no longer routinely extending their permits to stay in the country as well enforcing laws against the migrants who work and those who employ them.

(...)"

Its utopic to assume that a communtiy can digest just any influx of foreigners, no mmatter the numbers. Reality beats formality. Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better than Germans and other Euroists.

Your article confirms what people told BBC, that they were sent to Uganda. So the BBC report could be true.

„Its utopic to assume that a communtiy can digest just any influx of foreigners, no mmatter the numbers. Reality beats formality. Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better than Germans and other Euroists. „


Vot iss your point?:doh:
The BBC report is about Israel and African migrants.

[ikalugin]

My take:
- one of the core European ideals is the rule of law.

As such, you have to prosecute any criminals for the crimes that they have commited. The core problem is not that imigrants may or may not commit crimes, but that:
- you have an increase in crime levels.
- a lot of those crimes appear to be conducted by a group (of people), making prosecution difficult (because you have to prove that they have done it as a group).
And so the problem is manageable with the apropriate resource allocation.

Thus the question is not as much in terms of removing evill kebab, but in how much resources wise you are willing to spend on the altruistic mission of reforming and integrating all those refugees and imigrants. If you do not plan to keep them, but rather to provide temporary shelter, then you should go for filtration and refugee camps.
If you do plan to keep them, then you need to calculate how much you could take and instigate controls after that quota is filled.

[Betonov]

Problem is that people above the police and above the judicial system are party morons that got to their position by bending their asses to the correct people.
The police would love to take a more stern approach to criminals, stop protecting pereptraitors and give victims actual safety. I know policemen so I know they'd bust the door to a wealthy tycoon for free.
But politicians are running the show. And they don't know squat.

[Nippelspanner]

You know what, I started writing a response to Nippelspanner and Schroeders posts...I got halfway through it, and you know what...I ran out of energy to care any more.

You guys win, have your fun, I'll shut up trying to defend tolerance now.
Yeah well, you're not alone with that feeling, for what it's worth.
And surely this wasn't fun at all.
The whole topic is highly frustrating and depressing to me.
For years nothing made me so upset like the problems Europe is facing now,
for they may be fatal one way or another, it's just scary, you know. :-?

I just hope this didn't develop into something personal, I would regret that.

[Skybird]

Your article confirms what people told BBC, that they were sent to Uganda. So the BBC report could be true.

„Its utopic to assume that a communtiy can digest just any influx of foreigners, no mmatter the numbers. Reality beats formality. Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better than Germans and other Euroists. „


Vot iss your point?:doh:
The BBC report is about Israel and African migrants.
Israel gets Flak because it is Israel, and sending away migrants gets Flak for sending away migrants.

Else why would you have enriched this thread all of a sudden on migration stories from Israel. ...

Canada and Australia run strict deterance regimes against unwanted migration (for which the yget Flak as well), but thy do not care what UN wants to tell them, and continue with it. Successfully. Their migration inlet is mostly highly qualified, choosen by needs of their eocnomy and labour market, and with good integration prognosis - something that cannot be said about the majority of Muslim migration into Europe: France, Britain, Sweden, Holland, Germany...

Israel let in Jewish migrants without discriminating between good and foul apples since many years, from all parts of the world. Hasn't served them well, they have huge inner problem from this massive influx of foreigners from other cultures. They currently learn that just being Jewish - is not enough.

Germany must learn that a welcome culture is the most unhelpful thing there is. Merkelistan needs to understand that in a world where several hundred million wealth migrants are sitting on packed suitcases, standing up and sending the message into all directions "Germany's doors are open, and our gates are wide", necessarily will trigger an according reaction. And once you have some hundred million bodies moving, that has a self-dynamic and drive that you can stop as easily as you could stop a running stampede of panicking buffalo. We need to discriminate between migrants we need and migrants we need not, and we have any natural right to do so, we should let them seek labour from early on - and we must put pressure on them from start on to finance themselves and to integrate, without "if" and without "but". If you migrate to the US, this is a matter of course. You get private help and welcome aid - but after three months your social finance aid gets significantly cut no matter whether you have a job or not. After 90 days, you better have one and became self-sustainable.

We must stop letting in children travelling alone, and especially isolated young males. We should do like the Canadians and only let in families who have children: father, mother, kids; and the father having a wanted qualification. We should push them to become self-sustained quickly and leave them no choice there, nor should we leave them any choice but to integrate. Unwanted migrants need to be send away at the border, even by the use of force (else Germany has no longer sovereignty over it borders), and mirgants not allowed or wanted being picked up in Germany should, like inAustrlia, be put into prison-like camps for three years. Illegal migration to Australia has come to practically nill.

Not welcome culture. Deterance - and once established, spreading the word. We need to understand that we are stupid germans if thinking that the whole world must love us. We must aim at raising the number of migrants reporting home how terrible a mistake it was to come to Germany, and that those at home should not repeat that mistake.

Discrimination is no bad thing. The term comes form Latin and means nothign else than to differ between two things, or to chose for the one and against the other. Which is a basic right if liberty should have any meaning.

[Dan D]

I will tell you why I posted the BBC report.

This thread is on page 70 now and a waste of time because all you guys do is whining. Quit whining and make proposals for a fix for German asylum policy, will you?

The Israel example is interesting because first of all Israel is not an EU member. So you can't blame the EU this time. That you would get lost because someone mentioned „Israel“ was to be expected.

Second thought: the BBC report mentions that Israel is sending unwanted African migrants to other countries under secretive deals which may be in breach of international law.

Hint! Hint! Vot iss?

Even Israel is affected by mass migration. Israel is not Germany.
You say, Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better, you seem to be referring to breach of International law, than Germans and other "Euroists".

I say, you can't blame German or "Euroist" thinking here because the BBC report is about Israel's asylum policy.

Third: Israel like any other country has legal obligations with regard to refugees as it has signed the UN Refugee Convention. I guess I am losing you here right now because „UNSSR“ and you are going to write a pamphlet about how the UN is rotten and all that.

Do you want to abolish the UN Refugee Convention from 1951? That would be a proposal we could talk about. I doubt that this is going to happen.

Israel has obvioulsy a „protection elsewhere“ strategy, such is possible under the UN Refugee Convention. They make deals with third countries to take over asylum seekers from Africa.

From there you could ask, why doesn't not Germany follow a „protection elsewhere strategy“ like Israel, because we are looking for a fix, don't we?

Well, if you look at the EU-Turkey deal, it becomes obvious that the EU is following a protection elsewhere strategy with Turkey like Israel with Uganda. Well, here you get distracted by bad feelings about the madness of a EU-Turkey harmonisation.

We are running in circles.

[Nippelspanner]

Quit whining and make proposals for a fix for German asylum policy, will you?
Some did, including me.
Stop whining and read? :O:

[Skybird]

When an estray rings at my door and demands to live in a corner of my room from now on, I say "No". I also will not accept being told that I should offer him money for that he leaves again.

Thats at the core of the issue: Saying No at the gate, door, border, or not. Everything else is cosmetics to appease the moral conscience.

A harmonization of relations with Turkey. I only giggle on that folly, and leave it to that. If people still have not heard the shot although Erdoghan emptied a complete magazine, I cannot help it.

Finally, one must see that Western follies and illusions towards Russia, towards Islamic regimes, towards the chance of "democracy" in the ME, have done their share to spill oil into fires that were burning alread since centuries. So I recommend to finally stop maintaining such illusions, and settle back on a solid grounds basis at the bottom of reality. I'm preaching that since years. And got criticised for being "too harsh", "too heartless", "too racist", "too whateveryouwanttocallit".

Okay, it seems the show will go on for even longer time to come, and still is not hot enough. Justice means that you get the consequences that you deserve. In the end Western countries and the regional populations living in them will be treated fair and just, therefore, inevitably. The consequences of our deeds will find us. Promised. The only variable here is the time delay.

Weniger kümmern. Mehr lassen. You don't clear a glass of muddy water by trying to regulate and aid and manage it with a spoon. You put it aside, take care that nobody touches it, and let it be. Often the best of all bad options is not "doing", but "not-doing".

[Rockstar]

Hate to break stride here. But I was thinking, does anyone know exactley where these refugees are coming from? I was wondering only because of how the crime rates are skyrocketing over there.

Back in the 80s not only did many of Cuba's elite head for American shores. But Castro also took advantage of the exodus and emptied out his prisons too.

[Schroeder]

We let pretty much everybody in (or at least we did, I think the border controls have tightened now). There are tens of thousands of people here of whom we don't know their true identities or where they are really from (lost their passport but managed to keep their smartphone...you know ;) ). There also have been a lot of cases where people were living here under several different identities to claim the benefits for several people. Right now it's a huge and irresponsible mess.:/\\!!

[Rockstar]

I dont mean to bring this up as a gotcha but we are also talking about a religion/culture which treats the male sex drive as a holy commandment. Where the man is forgiven of every imaginable hetrosexual act . But equally unforgiving of the woman who happenes to be minding her own business and commits the unforgivable sin of being raped. Unless of course she can find 4 male witnesses to defend her, but that would be tattling which is also frowned upon.

[Skybird]

Hate to break stride here. But I was thinking, does anyone know exactley where these refugees are coming from? I was wondering only because of how the crime rates are skyrocketing over there.

Back in the 80s not only did many of Cuba's elite head for American shores. But Castro also took advantage of the exodus and emptied out his prisons too.

You touch a taboo here in Germany, that only slowly gets talked on over here. But you are right, it indeed is the case that Algeria, Marocco, Afghanistan and others actively refuse to take back rejected migrants, since they - and other african countries, too - use the opportunity to get rid of both unsatisied, uncomfortable and trouble-raising critical people who could endanger home regimes, and criminals and prisoners and social low classes that are a burden for their own countries. No wonder they do not want them back! And wqhen they take some, they let themselves getting expensively paid for the favour, even if by international law they have an obligation to take back these citizens which formally still are residents of their own states.

The crime happens not just amongst smugglers, but at the governmental levels as well.

Add to this that many refused migrants refuse to leave, and go into hiding. In the first six months last year, for example 65 thousand Afghan refugees received their order to leave Germany and were to board planes to Afghanistan. Until last week - the date of the official(!) number report I base on - , of these 65 thousand, only 53 have de facto been returned to Afghanistan.

Regarding rape crimes, statistics from Sweden show that rape rates - traditionally being quite low in Scandinavian countries - have skyrocketed by multiple factor ion certain places. what all these places have in common is that in past years they have seen a huge influx by Muslim migrants, and a forming up of Islamic parallel cultures. After Cologne there showed up reports in swedish media revealing that the Swedish police since years has a gagging order - like in Germany - to not reveal to the public the identity of Muslim migrant backgrounds in crime cases examined by the police.

Hide the problem! Out of sight: problem solved. :yeah:

[Rockstar]

It makes no sense for families fleeing hardships to be told to leave "or else". They already have the desire to leave so nobody needs to force them at gun point. However, if you are rounding up the unwanted and criminals and sending them to Europe among the desparate. Then that might explain where those reports are coming from of people being held at gun point and forced to leave the country.

[Rockstar]

Hide the problem! Out of sight: problem solved. :yeah:


sounds like some peoples definition of tolerence.

[Dowly]

The big problem is indeed that so many people from so many countries are taking advantage of the Syrian refugee crisis. I don't have current statistics, but (IIRC) in November last year, of the 32,000 asylum seekers in Finland, only 500-600 were Syrians. mapuc quite correctly mentioned couple of pages back that the estimate is that 2/3 of the 32,000 that arrived in Finland will be denied asylum on grounds that they are not in danger. Many Iraqis have also left voluntarily.

These "extra" people will of course put a huge strain on every country's asylum projects, and we all know how long it can take from making the decision to possibly deportation during which time the "extra" can just vanish and show up some place else.

Something needs to be done to weed out the "extras", but what can you do.. majority carry no papers. :dead:

[August]

Maybe this is the time for Russia to step up and take the refugees. They have many square miles of uninhabited land and could take every refugee the middle east or Africa can send.

[Dowly]

Maybe this is the time for Russia to step up and take the refugees. They have many square miles of uninhabited land and could take every refugee the middle east or Africa can send.
If Russia, then why not US as well? After all, it has been mainly US and the coalition that has been bombing crap up and destabilizing the region for the past 20 years.

Not meant as a jab, I just don't know where you're pulling Russia to this from, considering you guys have had much more impact on ME than Russia has. :hmmm:

[HunterICX]

Maybe this is the time for Russia to step up and take the refugees. They have millions of square miles of uninhabited land and could take every refugee the middle east or Africa can send.

I think it's not a problem of Russia not wanting refugees rather then the refugees not wanting to go the Russia as it's not a benefit welfare paradise like Northern Europe countries.

Something needs to be done to weed out the "extras", but what can you do.. majority carry no papers. :dead:

Harsh but I say no papers? no asylum, no work, no money, you're given a refugee status till the country you claimed to have come from is at peace again or you eventually confess your from a country that isn't unsafe you're to be shipped back and become their problem.

[Dowly]

I think it's not a problem of Russia not wanting refugees rather then the refugees not wanting to go the Russia as it's not a benefit welfare paradise like Northern Europe countries.
Some of them do go through Russia. Many of them have come to Finland through our eastern border and just couple of days ago Russia sentenced 4 refugees to 6 months in prison for trying to illegally cross the border to Finland.

Harsh but I say no papers? no asylum, no work, no money, you're given a refugee status till the country you claimed to have come from is at peace again or you eventually confess your from a country that isn't unsafe you're to be shipped back and become their problem.Isn't that pretty much what is being done atm, at least in Finland. Everyone are let in, then the process starts to see who needs asylum, the rest are deported. The problem is, unless you shove them all in a guarded camp, the ones not in danger can wander free and just vanish.

EDIT: Read that last one again, so basically, anyone without papers be deported/returned to where they came from would be one.. sort of solution.

[HunterICX]

Some of them do go through Russia. Many of them have come to Finland through our eastern border and just couple of days ago Russia sentenced 4 refugees to 6 months in prison for trying to illegally cross the border to Finland.

Yeh, I knew they go through Russia but they don't want to stay and apply for refuge or asylum there and rather keep moving to a more...beneficial welfare state with a soft-hand-you're-probably-just-misunderstood justice system.


EDIT: Read that last one again, so basically, anyone without papers be deported/returned to where they came from would be one.. sort of solution.

Yep it's basically that the ones that don't have papers won't be leaving these camps/centres they arrive in and when the country they claimed to have come from is safe again or wasn't a dangerous place to live to begin with, back they go.

[Schroeder]

Attempt to remove, denied:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcV0pK1wbZA
Bunch of retards got what they deserved (well, actually less than they deserved). Attacking random people is pointless, stupid and just criminal.

[Aktungbby]

Everything else is cosmetics to appease the moral conscience.



I dont mean to bring this up as a gotcha but we are also talking about a religion/culture MATTEL'S ALREADY ON TOP OF THIS ONE BBY! http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/funny10.jpg

[ikalugin]

A semi troll post:
The reason why many people emigrate out of sub saharan africa/northern africa/ME/central asia was... climate change and deterioration of farmland.

Now, there is a large (largest purely European) country just east of EU, that has plenty of farmland and would do anything to join. That country is called Ukraine. So, what you could do is to let Ukraine in, but sighn a deal between Ukraine and EU about dumping all refugees and imigrants that you do not want in Ukraine. The way you do it depends on how much money you could bother to spend on the problem, the best way would be to buy/rent farmland in Ukrainian rural regions and just settle those people there.

[Schroeder]

^The last time someone in Germany suggested getting Lebensraum in the east it wasn't received so well by the rest of the world...;)

[ikalugin]

This time it would be an altruistic attempt.

[Catfish]

Attempt to remove, denied:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcV0pK1wbZA

I don't get what happens there, seems some thugs wanted to rob the store, or a scrapping?

Anyway it is not sure who does anything against whom, though the shopkeeper is certainly right in defending.

What does this have to do with a migrant problem? The thugs could be german, or it could be "migrants", it could be anyone against the shopkeeper.

What does this video prove? :hmmm:

[Catfish]

A semi troll post:
The reason why many people emigrate out of sub saharan africa/northern africa/ME/central asia was... climate change and deterioration of farmland.


Well we are in for a climate change no doubt, but imho we will get that with or without politicians deciding anything.
http://www.longrangeweather.com/global_temperatures.htm

The last time we had high CO2 levels some 1000 years ago, the northern Sahara was green due to lots of clouds, created by higher temperatures – induced by higher sun activity, a cycle coming around again now.

[Schroeder]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CahO__-WcAAk17z.jpg:large
If she abides to the rules and is escaping war or threats to her life she's a refugee. If she comes from a safe place, commits crimes here, disrespects the local populations and just wants our welfare then she's a criminal economic migrant who has to be deported. Why is that so difficult?

[mapuc]

If she abides to the rules and is escaping war or threats to her life she's a refugee. If she comes from a safe place, commits crimes here, disrespects the local populations and just wants our welfare then she's a criminal economic migrant who has to be deported. Why is that so difficult?

And what if a person is escaping war or threats to his or her life and after have been permitted asylum, refuse to learn the language in the new country, commit crimes

Markus

[mapuc]

A 10 year old boy from Austria, Wien, was raped by a refugee. In his defense this refugee said "It was a sexual emergency" because he had not had sex for months


The rape took place on December 2, but police have not published the details now

Link (German)

http://www.krone.at/Oesterreich/Bub_in_Wiener_Bad_vergewaltigt_-_Iraker_gestaendig-Sexueller_Notstand-Story-494653

Do understand that this person IS NOT=every Muslim

I wish though that this person and them like him is kicked far away from our countries here in the west.

Markus

[Betonov]

And what if a person is escaping war or threats to his or her life and after have been permitted asylum, refuse to learn the language in the new country, commit crimes

Markus

Deported still.

[Schroeder]

Deported still.
^This.

[Betonov]

I'm all for deportation. Use it hard but use it fair.

[Skybird]

And what if a person is escaping war or threats to his or her life and after have been permitted asylum, refuse to learn the language in the new country, commit crimes

Isn't your answer coming all by itself, mapuc? If you are in desperate need and want somebody to help you, you better don't piss him - and accept his rules and terms. Period.

If you are guest in a foreign home, you do not piss your host, but accept his house rules. Period. And you certainly do not start to steal your host's silver spoons and harass his daughter.

Especially even more so when you have much at stake yourself - like beign threatened with loss of life or torture in your country of origin.

I wonder what can be unclear there. Its common sense.

[Rockstar]

No arguements from me either. If they can't abide by the law of the land then they leave the land, as simple as that.
Heck, if only native born criminals could be deported too...maybe to an island...

Nah, that'd never work... :O:

Doesn't see the humor.
http://theburtonwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/australia-aborigines-460.jpg

[Catfish]

Well, thanks to the poor english of the video title I cannot be sure if it's refugees doing the attacking or refugees being attacked. Plus the Kebab master was also non-German, so basically, an attempt was made to remove kebab, but it failed.

Have a productive day cycle.


No, i just asked what the video proved, or should prove, since you posted that. You must have had an intention, and for what i saw it only proves that people can be donkeyholes, regardless where they are from.

I am not really afraid of immigrants, aliens or whatever you call them. Some may be criminal, and police and military will deal with them alright.
The problem is that those criminals serve to be the scapegoat for all the crime that happens, for giving pretexts to hate anything "alien" abused by "Pegida", right-wingers and some neo-nazis, raising their ugly head again. Those guys in the video can well have been disguised germans, trying to attack a turkish or whatever shop owner. It could be even recorded in the US, who knows.

We have no migrant problem, at least not in the scale as it is perpetrated in the effin' media. We have our own Fox news/Sun/whatever those media parasites are called in other countries, trying to arouse the masses.

What i do not like is, that only Germany seems to have welcomed refugees at all, of all european countries, at least at a smaller scale.

Now when the brown mass hits the fan, and some criminals also managed to intrude this perfect Europe where no criminals ever lived, that all violence and crime is blamed on them. Giving the aforementioned pretext, to raise fear, and get some nice new laws through, to e.g. supervise everyone and eavesdropping, "for their own safety"!

So those countries can then lay back and say "See, we were right all the time, Germany is doing it all wrong". And then have their own nice pretext for letting no refugees into their (God's [sic!]) own country, and leave the EU. See: Poland (but they are on the way to dictatorship anyway, wtf is going on there?), but also Cameron and his England. The fear of alien invasion? Do a referendum. Well if you can get votes with it.

And why don't the US invite those refugees, which only exist at all because of the very US "engagement" and the "coalition of the willing" in the Middle East? Saddam and his WMD, my donkey.

"Thank you."

[mapuc]

Isn't your answer coming all by itself, mapuc? If you are in desperate need and want somebody to help you, you better don't piss him - and accept his rules and terms. Period.

If you are guest in a foreign home, you do not piss your host, but accept his house rules. Period. And you certainly do not start to steal your host's silver spoons and harass his daughter.

Especially even more so when you have much at stake yourself - like beign threatened with loss of life or torture in your country of origin.

I wonder what can be unclear there. Its common sense.

In a perfect world yes but the world ain't perfect. If you knew how many stories from Denmark and Sweden I have read and heard, where a refugees can't speak the language even though he or she have lived there for years and refugees who commit crimes after crimes and when the attorney want them kicked out of the country their supporters always say-No you can not expel him-he would face certain death if he returns home to his country a.s.o

Markus

[Schroeder]

What i do not like is, that only Germany seems to have welcomed refugees at all, of all european countries, at least at a smaller scale.

You forgot Sweden....

[Betonov]

You forgot Sweden....

And Slovenia.
But the problem with us is that as soon as we accomodate them, they run north towards Germany.

[Skybird]

In a perfect world yes but the world ain't perfect. If you knew how many stories from Denmark and Sweden I have read and heard, where a refugees can't speak the language even though he or she have lived there for years and refugees who commit crimes after crimes and when the attorney want them kicked out of the country their supporters always say-No you can not expel him-he would face certain death if he returns home to his country a.s.o

Markus

Guest pisses his host? Guest gets kicked out. That would be my policy. I honestly do not care whether they get persecuted in their country of origin once they refuse to play by the rules - our rules, that are. I act and acted by that rule myself, both when I travelled to other countries/cultures, or just other people'S household.

Ink-pissing shall not be allowed to replace common sense and plain reason. Unfortunately righ this has happened in our overly complex bureaucratic system we optimistically call the "justice system". I got bitten by it. I do not put my trust in courts and judges and the "law-makers" and the lobbyists influencing them anymore. It all got hijacked and now is abused.

[Rockstar]

And why don't the US invite those refugees, which only exist at all because of the very US "engagement" and the "coalition of the willing" in the Middle East? Saddam and his WMD, my donkey.

"Thank you."


Dont blame the U.S. It's YOUR leaders and party to the coalition which is allowing this huge charlie foxtrot to happen in your country. Quit cryin and get control of YOUR boarders and dont worry about what everybody else is or isn't doing.

Germany has had such a great influence in Mexico's past. Why arent you helping us take in their refugees and protect our southern boarder?

[August]

Germany has had such a great influence in Mexico's past. Why arent you helping us take in their refugees and protect our southern boarder?

This is how they'd likely want to help...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Zimmermann-telegramm-offen.jpg

[August]

Well, it did help....us... :O:

It did, and one of the reasons that Mexico didn't go along with the scheme was

Even if by some chance Mexico had the military means to win a conflict against the United States and reclaim the territories in question, Mexico would have severe difficulty accommodating a large English-speaking population that was better supplied with arms than most populations.

-- Katz, Friedrich (1981). The Secret War in Mexico: Europe, the United States, and the Mexican Revolution.


Civilian gun ownership saves lives. :up:


:up:

[Nippelspanner]

Civilian gun ownership saves lives. :up:
It did and it will again... in the mean time, it takes lives - you can't just blend that out please.

[Dowly]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/54487369.jpg

[Skybird]

It did and it will again... in the mean time, it takes lives - you can't just blend that out please.
Imagining that I did a complete U-turn on this issue over the past ten years. Awesome!

Gun laws, I mean. I once was totally against private carry. I'm now all for it. Current migration issues were not the reason why I changed mind, just saying.

[Rockstar]

Imagining that I did a complete U-turn on this issue over the past ten years. Awesome!

Gun laws, I mean. I once was totally against private carry. I'm now all for it. Current migration issues were not the reason why I changed mind, just saying.


Skybird changing his mind over personal carry? Certainly this must be a sign the end is near! :haha:

[Nippelspanner]

Imagining that I did a complete U-turn on this issue over the past ten years. Awesome!

Gun laws, I mean. I once was totally against private carry. I'm now all for it. Current migration issues were not the reason why I changed mind, just saying.
So...? :hmmm:

[Betonov]

Skybird changing his mind over personal carry? Certainly this must be a sign the end is near! :haha:

I'll tell you when I apply for a licence (might be this year, depends on my financial situation), that's the cue it's not near, but it has begun.

[eddie]

Erdogan has said if he doesn't get a better deal with the EU on helping with the Syrian refugees, he will get upset!

"He also said he had previously told the European Union's two top officials, Jean-Claude Juncker and Donald Tusk, that the time could come when Turkey would open the gates for migrants to travel to Europe.
"In the past we have stopped people at the gates to Europe, in Edirne we stopped their buses. This happens once or twice, and then we'll open the gates and wish them a safe journey, that's what I said," he said on Thursday.
A Greek news website said on Monday that Erdogan, in a meeting in November with Juncker and Tusk, had threatened to flood Europe with migrants if EU leaders did not offer a better deal to help Turkey manage the refugee crisis."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkeys-erdogan-warns-patience-will-run-out-on-syria/ar-BBpnxOg

He even got upset with the United States over our support for the Syrian Kurds!

"Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan upbraided the United States for its support of Syrian Kurdish rebels on Wednesday, saying Washington's inability to understand the group's true nature had turned the region into a "sea of blood." Erdogan's comments, a day after Turkey summoned the U.S. ambassador over its support for the Syrian Kurds, illustrate Ankara's growing frustration with its NATO ally, which backs Syrian Kurdish rebels in the battle against ISIS.
Ankara sees the Syrian Kurdish PYD as terrorists, citing their links to the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which has carried out a violent, three-decade insurgency for Kurdish autonomy in Turkey's southeast."


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/turkey-s-erdogan-slams-u-s-over-support-syrian-kurds-n515676


As far as I'm concerned, he can go to hell!:rock:

[Jimbuna]

Throw Turkey out of NATO and tell them once and for all they won't be allowed to join the EU.

Oh, don't forget to remind him he is on his own as far as Russia are concerned as well.

[Schroeder]

Throw Turkey out of NATO and tell them once and for all they won't be allowed to join the EU.

Oh, don't forget to remind him he is on his own as far as Russia are concerned as well.
I'm fairly certain we'll do the exact opposite.:/\\!!
Merkel is already cuddling up to Erdogan because he's the only one who can stop the flood and he knows it and uses that as leverage for his advantage. As things are I wouldn't be surprised if Merkel were to announce to fully support a Turkish EU membership just to keep those refugees from spilling into Germany. She's slowly realizing that she screwed up big time and can't change the flow anymore alone and since the entire rest of the EU isn't playing along she's now desperately looking for help elsewhere and the only one who can still help is Erdogan...for a hefty prize.:/\\!!

Besides we have to keep the "Evil Russia" BS going, after all we've decided that Assad has to go with no regard to what that would mean to Syria and it's people whatsoever. And since Russia is backing Assad we have to do everything in our power to be against them even if that means to get butt raped by Turkey. So I think we'll rather send more military to "protect" Turkey against the "Evil Russians" and show our full "NATO Support" for "a good ally".:/\\!!

[Jimbuna]

Just close the EU borders, other countries have no difficulty in doing that.

The way things are going we are heading into another cold war situation and that means an overwhelming victory for daesch without even having to fight its position.

[Schroeder]

Guys, Europe wasn't destroyed. It never existed in the first place and was just a nice illusion payed for by Germany and France.

And how can anyone blame countries for not taking in refugees when the countries that do fight with skyrocketing crime and a population living in fear?
Why is it always our fault? Why isn't it the fault of the misbehaving people that no one wants them? Sometimes I have a feeling that self appointed guilt is all the rage in the West these days.:-?

[Dowly]

Sometimes I have a feeling that self appointed guilt is all the rage in the West these days.:-?I agree.

[HunterICX]

Sometimes I have a feeling that self appointed guilt is all the rage in the West these days.:-?

That's what you get if you silly Germans believe all the things that some failed Austrian painter said.

:hmph:

Because of that everything we do against the ''misunderstood'' like showing him the door as he is no longer welcome =

http://i.imgur.com/EoN7jfr.jpg

[Schroeder]

I can't remember anyone saying there should be a war against Islam....:hmm2:

[Schroeder]

Then why are so many people saying that radical Islam isn't the problem, but Islam itself? Is that not insinuating that Islam is a problem that needs to be either tackled or wiped out?
Not at all it means we have to keep that problem away from our borders. What they do in their countries is of no concern to me but what they are doing here is. And again there was not a single post (that I remember that is) in this thread that called for a "final solution for the Islamic question". I think you are interpreting too much into what people say. No one called for violence, just for closed borders and swift deportation of troublemakers.

[August]

...perfect ammunition for Daesh propaganda.

You use that phrase a lot but when you think about it western culture is their perfect propaganda ammunition too so if we don't always lay out a welcome mat for everyone that wants to come here I don't think it's going to make much of a difference in the hearts and minds of the middle eastern peoples.

[ikalugin]

About the navies. Just call the Australians, they know how to stop the boats.

[Rockstar]

Ah, I didn't mean people in this thread, I meant those outside it, you know the types I mean, idiots who are not much better than the radical Muslims that they claim to despise.

Still, having said that, refusing to let people live in Germany because they're Muslim doesn't exactly send out the right signals either, and is just perfect ammunition for Daesh propaganda. :dead:

I for one dont give a rats arse about 'signals' of some percieved intolerance or how control of a nations border might offend someone. Germany like the U.S.A., U.K. or any nation on this planet has a right to refuse entry to anyone they so choose wether they be sinner or a saint. If it so happens the ones being denied entry are Muslim immigrants from Afganistan, Morroco, Pakistan, Iran, Syria tuff titties.

We stop Haitians, Indians, Mexicans, Panamanians, Chinese, Vietnamese, you name it, every single day and I can gaurantee you nobody here is ever worried if we are sending the wrong signal or offending anyone.

What makes that easy for us is the signal we send out is one of border control. Unfortunetaly Germany didnt do that, but I see no problem if they choose to finally get their act together, round up these ne'er-do-wells and ship'em back where they came from and I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.

I dont give a spit what IS thinks about it either

[ikalugin]

I think that you could look at it the other way. You presume that everyone is allowed in, except for case where there is proof that they are indeed undesirable elements. You could do it the other way - you could ban everyone from entering except the cases where there is proof that they are indeed desirable elements.

[Catfish]

About the navies. Just call the Australians, they know how to stop the boats.

You speaking from experience? :)
No really i don't understand what you mean here.


... You could do it the other way - you could ban everyone from entering except the cases where there is proof that they are indeed desirable elements. ... Of course one could, and indeed a lot of "nations" do exactly that.
However it violates the UN treaty, if you take it seriously, as it is meant.
Everyone is innocent, unless proven otherwise. The idea is to immediately remove any human being from direct threat of torture, or to be killed. If it can be proven that this is not the case, he/she can be expelled, and sent back.

And that is a good thing.
But as long as some idiots like DAESH are running Amok, inverting the well-meant international laws, this only fuels nationalism of the lowest kind.


(i know i describe this in a sort of bumpy way, my english just isn't up to express it in better words)

[ikalugin]

They are innicent untill proven otherwise, yes. But being innocent of crimes and being desirable in the country (and thus elegible for entry) are two different things.

And that is where the national self interest conflicts with the humanistic mission. Do you value the national self interest higher? Do you value your cultural mission higher?

[ikalugin]

I think Ikalugin refers to Australias ongoing boat people problem and the various measures they've undertaken to deal with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28189608

The idea of guilty until proven innocent is certainly one way of doing it, of course, the big problem with both it and the vice versa is proving their guilt or innocence in a situation where evidence is hard to come by, and the sheer bulk of numbers makes the task of processing rather daunting. Obviously though that's a problem whichever way you cut it, and I mean these people have to go somewhere while they're waiting to be processed. :hmmm:
Yes, I was refering to using Australian experience in Med.

As to the instruments - you shift the burden of proof to the applicant and thus offload work load to him. For example - if you don't have your ID, you can't get into the country. Suddenly people would stop loosing their passports. Allowing people without valid documents check to walk around the country is dumb and dangerous and that is what is happening to the imigrants/refugees that come to Europe.

[Catfish]

... I think Ikalugin refers to Australias ongoing boat people problem and the various measures they've undertaken to deal with it. ...

"...Asylum seekers have been sent back in lifeboats..."

Ah. No i don't think the EU will adopt that policy.

[Dan D]

http://www.politico.eu/article/72-hours-to-launch-natos-migrant-mission-refugees-asylum-greece-turkey/

"72-hours-to-launch-natos-migrant-mission-refugees-asylum-greece-turkey":

It appeared the tallest of tall orders. German government officials were given just three days to turn a seemingly unworkable idea — sending NATO ships to the Aegean Sea to deter people-smugglers from taking migrants from Turkey to Greece — into an official proposal with the backing of all NATO allies.

In the space of 72 hours, they had done it. By Thursday morning, Jens Stoltenberg, the alliance’s secretary general, was telling reporters about a plan to begin the mission “without delay.”

The mission “will be tasked to conduct reconnaissance, monitoring and surveillance of the illegal crossings in the Aegean Sea in cooperation with relevant authorities, and to establish a direct link with the European Union’s border management agency Frontex,” Stoltenberg said...

When the idea first came up on Monday, it seemed unlikely that it would ever come to fruition: A military alliance doing the job of police forces and coast guard agencies; NATO meddling in the EU’s struggle to protect its maritime borders; the Americans getting involved in affairs they see as purely European; and, most importantly, Athens agreeing to an idea that originated in Ankara, when the two governments barely communicate.(...)

[Nippelspanner]

When I claimed earlier that western intelligence agencies came to the conclusion that up to 25% of muslims are indeed radical(ized), some here made the usual PC fun and didn't listen.

I just came across this video and thought it might fit the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg

I guess the first convenient excuse will be to question his sources or numbers, but even if they would be half wrong, it still would be enough to justify the claim that islam itself is radical/evil.
For those who forgot what Sharia law means in a nutshell, I have a NSFW/graphic picture to remind you:
http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/Endtimes/amputated.hand.jpg
Do you still think Islam is "moderate" or peaceful?

[Nippelspanner]

By all means, go down to your local mosque and tell them that they're not proper Muslims, see what they say. :hmmm:
I'm sure they would initiate a civilized debate... :03:

In all seriousness though, what else do you need?
So all these numbers, reports and claims are vicious lies against Islam?
Why do you ignore these numbers?
And yes, they are not real muslims if they do not follow the Quran.
And if they follow the Quran, they must obey the Sharia law.

Simple.

Edit: And all these Muslims you claim that aren't radicalized... how do you know?
Because they don't say it?
Would you for as long as you are still a minority, when you know there are consequences?
The numbers provided in the video show a very concerning result, wouldn't you agree?

Edit²: (Sorry, sleepy...)
Then why are Muslims not chopping peoples hands off daily in London?
Well, about that...

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/09/muslim-teenager-planned-behead-soldiers-london-court-hears

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11075380/Woman-beheaded-in-north-London-garden.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby
(Video) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTWeU28ZGug)

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/12/14/interview-hospitalised-christian-convert-tells-breitbart-london-muslims-said-theyd-chop-off-head/

There's more... so much more. Shall I link it as well?

[Rockstar]

Where do you draw the line? :hmmm:


At the border. :03:

[Nippelspanner]

I really wish that this site was seen as more welcoming to people of the Islamic faith
I wonder why it isn't and no one talks about Christianity, Buddhism or Jedi in this context... :hmm2:



...deeper knowledge of Islam who could defend it and the moderate Muslims that have lived happily amongst us until 9/11 happened and we all got scared of anything vaguely Arabic.
As if Islam would be so complicated. It is simple.
Claiming the Quran is difficult to translate or understand is simply part of Taqiya - something that doesn't even remotely exist in other religions.

And "happily among us"?
Guess today I learned that 9/11 was the first muslim stunt?
Oh wait:
http://i.imgur.com/xeTOiyW.png

And I wonder what happened after 911, the "spring" of islamic terror?
Oops, sorry, can't link that many pictures here I guess so:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks



As it is I have to...well, no, I don't have to constantly offer battle, but honestly I would feel bad for my character if I didn't try, as hard as it is when you're becoming a lone voice in a sea of shouting.
Posting numbers to back up claims I got laughed at for is shouting now?
Voicing my concern over something so radical that it may destroy the western world is shouting?
Well you might not want me, and others, to stop "shouting", because if we do, you may hear other shoutings soon in your country... oh wait! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtct-z9JS8)


The truth is, is that there are as many different people who call themselves Islamic as there are people who call themselves Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, or even Jedi. Each person is different, each person has a different view on how the Qu'ran should be interpreted. Heck, there's more than a view Christians out there or even atheists who think that chopping the hands off thieves is a good idea and that these people get what they deserve.
And how many Christians, Atheists, Sikh, Buddhists or Jedi actually did chop off someone's hand for stealing...?
Aaaand now tell me how many muslims did this, are dong this, probably right now?
You are so apologetic, it is almost fascinating.
No matter if one simply writes something provocative, or backs it up with numbers (that haven't been challenged/proven wrong yet), you go on and on about "moderate muslims" when there is a real possibility that there are hundreds of millions of muslims who are indeed radicalized, would support Sharia law etc., acting as if we're talking about these few "unfortunate and isolated incidents".


I think that if you were to ask someone who you class as not being a Muslim if they considered someone who kills himself in the name of Allah in a car bomb in the middle of Baghdad is more of a Muslim than they are, then I think you'd find that they considered these people not to be proper Muslims. To quote a man in a tube station in East London who had just witnessed a man slash another mans throat in retaliation for the UK bombing Syria 'You ain't no Muslim, bruv!'.
Maybe he should have read the Quran more carefully before telling radical muslims that they aren't muslim...
Read it. There is no room for sugarcoating and interpretation, it is all there, black ink on white paper.


So who are you to tell these people that they're not proper Muslims? Does this mean that anyone who isn't like the Amish isn't a proper Christian?
Does this mean that August, who hasn't been to church in a while but still believes in God isn't a proper Christian?
If you won't do what your holy book commands you to do (and the Quran is the unalterable, infallible word of Allah, mind you!) you aren't who you claim to be. What next? Vegans eating steak? Not that I'd blame them...

Where do you draw the line? :hmmm:
Surely, I do get your point and if you believe it or not - and if you may forgive my rather sarky tone tonight - I was breaking my head over this question for a long time and surely it is absolutely no matter of black and white, it is always shades of gray.

But.

The problem I am addressing isn't if you prefer the color red while I prefer blue, it isn't roses or daisies...
We are talking about an ideology that does cause measurable trouble.
You said it yourself "Then why are Muslims not chopping peoples hands off daily in London?"
I showed you that they do (and was surprised how often it happens, not only in London btw) and all you can return is: "Hardly a daily occurrence, is it?"

I rest my case, I think you would still argue against this when someone would be beheaded right in front of you.
You are completely unreasonable in this matter, I think. :-?
At least address the numbers I have provided, prove them wrong, don't just make up some "but my muslim neighbor is really nice!" kind of examples while I post links to severely disturbing news, incidents and numbers.

In the end, do you think I want them to be true just for the fun of it?
I wish they would be all BS and Islam is the praised religion of peace,
but considering whats going on - and the numbers provided - why would I believe so?
Reminds me of these hardcore bible belt christians who home-school their kids so they won't hear these "lies" about evolution... or literally anything scientific. :-?

Closing:
http://i.imgur.com/T3jHxW3.png

http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-accept-accepting-agree-Agreeing-clapping-nod-sad-GIF.gif

Have a good night mate.

[Skybird]

An ideology's content is ideological content. It is that content, and no other - else it would be a different, another ideology. But it is not another one, but this one. This is this and that is that.

Not only do you constantly make false assumptions and claims about this ideology's content, following the mainstream political correctness about it and the pathetic self-victimization of its audience, but you constantly mistake ideology with race, that'S where your problem comes from - and where other people'S problem with you come from.

You just ignore the unwanted reality - but still you get found by the consequences of doing so. And that will never be any different.

[CptSimFreak]

Lefties heads will explode after watching this...

https://youtu.be/iZrGeq3aKTU

[Nippelspanner]

The problem with labelling Islam as a dangerous religion is that you label all of its followers with the same thing, all 2 billion odd of them. It would be the same as saying that Subsim is a site for Nazis because we've had one guy who tried to argue that Hitler didn't start WWII.
No.

If as many Muslims are radicalized as the numbers claim, so 680.000.000(!) (and so far no one debunked these numbers), you can't compare it to that one Nazi on Subsim, we aren't speaking minorities anymore.


Sure, there's more than just one radical Muslim nutjob out there, they're probably in the hundreds of thousands in total, perhaps even as high as a million. But look at the bigger picture, what is a million out of two billion?Did you actually watch the video I linked?
Why don't you answer my question regarding the numbers it stated?
Look, you can do what you want, but when you chose to simply ignore them because you don't like them, this is futile.
The least you could do is to address them or provide data that contradicts them.
"A million"?
What about up to 680 million?
Mind you, radicalized doesn't mean "Honey, hand me my explosives vest!", it means being ready to accept Sharia law.

I stopped reading further.
I hoped you would address my points instead of evading to talk about this surely horrible number.

[Oberon]

Sure, ok, you win, well done.

[Nippelspanner]

Sure, ok, you win, well done.
I don't want to "win" against you, I want to hear what you think about the number 680million - and what if the number is even HALF accurate? :-?

[Rockstar]

With winter almost over, there is talk stirring over here again of another arab spring. Get it, arab 'spring' migration.

So whats the plan?

[Schroeder]

So whats the plan?
Plan? What plan? There has never been one here.:down:

Merkel is trying to get Erdogan to stop the people from coming here which he won't of course as it's not in his interest. He'll take all the cash we have to offer and will do token things just enough to be important to us and keep us in a position of dependence which he'll exploit in the years to come.

Meanwhile the opinion here has swayed around almost 180° and people are getting fed up with constant immigration of unregistered people. I myself have never felt more betrayed by a German chancellor in my lifetime.:/\\!!

[Skybird]

Merkel now is what the Americans call a lame duck. She's done.

We do not speak about refugees. We speak about wealth migrants. And world-wide, several hundred millions are sitting on packed bags and are willing to move to Europe and Germany, if opportunity arises.

Merkel has managed to get Germany as isolated like it never was before since WWII. The weakness over the migrant issue will emit into other fields as well, namely the debt crisis. The days of Germany giving the impression of being the unwavering bastion for defending fiscal discipline, are over. In fact, Germany never really was that, just wanted to give the impression to the German voters to get their votes.

Just days ago, an internal analysis of the German finance ministry popped up, revealing deficits in projected German yearly budgets of 7 billion per year, bringing Germany's debts until 2050 or 2060 to over 220% of the current GDP. Compare: Greece debts currently are 185% of its GDP. Thankfully, cash money gets campaigned and lobbied to be abandoned. That will make it easier for the criminals to forge more debt-"money" and to plunder private savings.

The whole mess that Germany, the other nations, the EU is - it all already is exploding us into our faces. its just that the explosion takes place in kind of slo mo. If you only have a quick glance, you see nothing moving. Later historians will run the movie in faster mode, see the shock waves expanding and the dust clouds racing along, and wonder: why did they let it get that far?

I wonder whether the Britons will allow to get fearmongered by unions and Cameron into refusing to leave the EU. Its a great chance they have, and I strongly recommend and encourage them to leave. I wish we would leave, too, but servile dogs that us Germans are, always believing in strong state and getting regulated and getting nannied by some Führer, we will always have this right withhold from us is by our puppet masters. And when we do not raise and revolt against them, we do not deserve it any better.

Where the southern European states today are, we will be by the middle of this century, or short time after that. Wir schaffen das.

As far as America is concerned, my impression is that Washington already has written off Europe. I cannot criticise them for that, other world regions are far more important now than Europe. The EUSSR's claim, and reality, have not much in common.

[Jimbuna]

I can sympathize with much of what Schroeder and Skybird have posted above and believe a growing number of Brits would also.

Personally speaking, I'm happy the Brits are soon to get the referendum so obviously needed to allow us to make our own position clear and hopefully allow us to take full control of our affairs again.

I believe there are other EU members awaiting said outcome because they are also asking similar questions of themselves.

[Rockstar]

When I claimed earlier that western intelligence agencies came to the conclusion that up to 25% of muslims are indeed radical(ized), some here made the usual PC fun and didn't listen.

I just came across this video and thought it might fit the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg

I guess the first convenient excuse will be to question his sources or numbers, but even if they would be half wrong, it still would be enough to justify the claim that islam itself is radical...


Here's the source, just an FYI. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

[Schroeder]

Merkel now is what the Americans call a lame duck. She's done.

Keep dreaming. CDU and SPD still would get enough votes between them to continue the insanity.:/\\!!

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/54/1012554/3866636337663761.jpg

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm

And since they have nobody else "Mutti" will continue to ruin the country.:yeah:

[HunterICX]

http://i.imgur.com/r3iJiEU.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx_N4y1gmdc

[Betonov]

Austria decided to set daily quotas.
Which means Slovenia could quickly back up with the migrant flow since Croatians are just shipping them over here as quickly as possible.

[mapuc]

Wasn't there someone or some who said there ain't no such things as no-go zone.

Saw on Danish TV an issue from Swedish TV. A journalist was traveling with a police officer in a civilian car in the Swedish suburban town Fittja outside Stockholm. The police did this, if they had entered the area in a police car, it could have gone nasty.

The officer said to the camera. We do not enter this area if really not needed. They throw stones, shot at us and have on occasion thrown live grenade at us(yes he said that)

The whole thing was about a head of a police section, was crying out for help in a article warning that the Swedish police was facing breakdown.

Markus

[Schroeder]

That's just misunderstood cultural enrichment. Be more tolerant!:stare:

[Nippelspanner]

Wasn't there someone or some who said there ain't no such things as no-go zone.
Yeah, 1 or 2 here, the usual candidates who, for whatever reason, refuse to see reality, even when shoved in their faces.

"No-Go-Zones" exist in Germany for YEARS now, it isn't something new, something mysterious, some rumor. It is very real and everyone who doubt it is invited by me to get dropped off by car in these zones.
I almost guarantee you will quickly know why these zones are no sinister fantasy of some closet-nazis.

[Dowly]

Wasn't there someone or some who said there ain't no such things as no-go zone.

Yeah, 1 or 2 here, the usual candidates who, for whatever reason, refuse to see reality, even when shoved in their faces.

That would be me, I suppose.

[Nippelspanner]

That would be me, I suppose.
I wasn't referring to you know.
Do you think there are no no-go zones? :hmmm:

[Dowly]

Do you think there are no no-go zones? :hmmm:I am aware of there being number of no-go zones throughout Europe.

[mapuc]

In the beginning I so to say refused that there was these no-go zone, but after have seen more and more evidence on our mainstream media I know now that there are no-go zone

So the next question is

What can we do about it and can we do something about it or have we to learn to live with it ?

Markus

[Rockstar]

I am aware of there being number of no-go zones throughout Europe.

I wonder if what we call 'the hood' is the same as what you all call a no go zone. Those are the places you hear where most of the police shooting occur in tne U.S. Of course our media loves to make you think the police were shakin' down Mr. Rodgers because they didnt like his sweater.

[HunterICX]

Yeah, 1 or 2 here, the usual candidates who, for whatever reason, refuse to see reality, even when shoved in their faces.

"No-Go-Zones" exist in Germany for YEARS now, it isn't something new, something mysterious, some rumor. It is very real and everyone who doubt it is invited by me to get dropped off by car in these zones.
I almost guarantee you will quickly know why these zones are no sinister fantasy of some closet-nazis.

It's however a myth that these No Go Zones are Sharia Law operating zones in which the local law isn't aplicable.

It's No Go Zone becaue of the high crime due to high levels of poverty, unemployement and not a bright outlook on the future that their living conditions will improve that these zones aren't a the ones to be in and yes these are usually occupied for the most part by the culture enriching foreigners. Been there, seen them when I was still living in the Netherlands and the only way for the police to enter those is in civilian disguise.

[Onkel Neal]

Have you tried? I really wish that this site was seen as more welcoming to people of the Islamic faith so that there was someone here who had deeper knowledge of Islam who could defend it and the moderate Muslims that have lived happily amongst us until 9/11 happened and we all got scared of anything vaguely Arabic. As it is I have to...well, no, I don't have to constantly offer battle, but honestly I would feel bad for my character if I didn't try, as hard as it is when you're becoming a lone voice in a sea of shouting.....

You know that inner voice telling you that you are the sole voice of reason? :hmmm: Ignore it. Try to picture the other posters here as people on equal footing with you. And you don't have to win every argument or convert every person. By adding your thoughts and opinions you are contributing a lot. :up:

This "site" is as welcome to people of the Islamic faith, as any other, equally along with atheists, Christians, Buddists, and Jews, and other religions short of anarchists and satanists.

I am sure there are people who are afraid of anything Arabic, but most of the people I come into contact are not remotely afraid, they are simply tired of dealing with bombings, shootings, beheadings, and the general chaos emanating from the ME. Where are the leaders in the ME? The great statesmen who are fighting to wrench the extremists into order and lift up there people?

There are millions of Muslims in the US, I used to work under one at Cycle Gear. We get along fine. There are probably 100 times more mobile phone store robberies than crimes of Mosque vandalism and anti-Arabic hate. It is not "anti-Muslim" to desire to keep one's culture, in one's country, and to oppose mass immigration of people who are extremely devoted to an incongruent culture/religion. It doesn't take a Nostradamus or Einstein to see the problems what will develop from that down the road. As one member here said, "I like where I live", in regards to gun control or something. I absolutely understand that sentiment. He would not be happy if thousands of gun-happy rednecks immigrated to his province or county.

It appears that people who are idealistic view immigrants in unrealistic ways. The ME immigrants that are flooding your countries are frequently narrow-minded, racist, misogynist, anti-Semites. They need help, so they present a friendly, submissive face to their hosts. Does that make them evil or unworthy of assistance? No. There are narrow-minded, racist, misogynist people all over the world, of every faith. To varying degrees. It's just people. We should help the people of the ME, but that does not include opening our boarders and giving up our culture.

Side note: I had supper with a life-long friend yesterday. She's a really devout Christian, her brother too. He is currently on a missionary assignment in one of the African countries. She says he is returning, they are shutting the mission down. Why? A lot of the people in the village have left on their trip to Europe to start their new life.

[Skybird]

Amen to what Neal said.

I just add: where are the demands, where is the pressure towards the Muslim countries on this planet to pick up their suffering brothers and sisters? The rich Gulf states? Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia spends hundreds of millions every year to build its extremists-breeding mosques and "culture-centres" and to finance Muslim communities throughout Europe while threatening with death every foreigner visiting their country and carrying a bible for personal use in his suitcase, and it spends even more on supporting Islamic terrorism and extremism throughout the world while having turned, already long time ago, their country into a monocultural desert what one and a half millenia ago was a romping place of different cults, sects, cultures, and beliefs and international trade. And where is Kuwait? Quatar? The UAE? Indonesia? Where are the Western idealists demanding these to care for people that are culturally and often ethnically so very close to these countries?

Truth is that rich Islamic countries all too often give brown stuff for the fate of their brothers and sisters and care more for missionising in the West and increasing Islam's political infouence in the world. Demography and mass migration are just two of the non-military weapons that get used to put the West under pressure. And the West - allows that strategy to unfold it's effect, standing stunned like a deer in the searchlight.

If you allow your morals being turned into the tools of your defeat and supression, so that these morals now work against you and get used by the other to push you back and destroy you - then you are weak, you are stupid, and you are probably cowardly. Get out of the way.

[Dan D]

The EU Council meeting today and tomorrow, dealing with the refugee crisis and the UK's relations within Europe should be interesting.

related to the thread topic: Islam and the Crisis of Liberal Values in Europe
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/europe/2016-02-02/elephant-room

"Can a Europe of 28 member states share responsibility for a smaller number of refugees than is currently in Lebanon alone? Of course it can...

The elephant in the room is an underlying Islamophobia. The simple fact is that European member states don’t really want to welcome Muslim migrants.

This has been explicit in the case of countries with vocal far-right parties and in central European countries with Christian nationalist governments. But the liberal political elites of western Europe have steered clear of admitting that the biggest single barrier to coherent asylum and immigration policies is public anxiety about Islam. Far-right parties have pandered to these fears, stoking xenophobia. For the most part, though, people across the rest of the political spectrum have remained silent on the topic..."

[HunterICX]

Where are the leaders in the ME? The great statesmen who are fighting to wrench the extremists into order and lift up there people?

Well, we removed them as thanks to us by invading one country we allowed one to be hanged, the other we bombed the crap out and allowed the rebels capture and murder the other and where busy with the 3rd one till we may have started to realize that what we are reaping what we've been sowing.

Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad may not be posters boys for Human rights, Freedom, liberties and where harsh in anything that would threaten their rule which includes extremism but at least under their rule things where kept under an order people could live their lives by. You don't need to be an expert to know that these countries have a constant struggle of ethnic and between the different sects of the Islam that they can't be ruled unless it's someone with a firm hand that smacks down anything that goes out of order. That's why Western countries like Northern Europe is a paradise for these immigrants...what keeps them in check? Not our soft hand understanding of misunderstood people who break the law constantly justice system and our welfare system which can be easily abused.

[Skybird]

^ Plus we applauded the removal of Mubarak in Egypt - and condemn Mursi playing the game in the only way to keep the MB in check.

[Dan D]

https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/700258081528270849?lang=de

"Who should be in charge of migration policies?
Lowest approval rate for EU responsibility in the UK"

[Betonov]

Croatia should become the main sorting area to get the refugees out of the economic migrants.

Why??

1) It's Croatia
2) It's EU bit not yet Schengen

[Schroeder]

The elephant in the room is an underlying Islamophobia.
Which is of course completely unjustified as the Islamic mass immigration has only enriched countries and never caused problems.

Hurray we can finally be guilty again! :yeah::yeah:
It's all just our fault and ours alone!:yeah::yeah:

[ikalugin]

Well, you could wait untill ISIS runs over German Government and then redo the 1939, just with the ME flavour this time. (declaimer - this -is- a troll of sorts).

You won't be responsible for the new Government and could cut the infidel's heads and trade their wifes/kids/farm animals on the sex slave market just the same. Just don't over do it, so you don't get into leadership positions.

[Onkel Neal]

Well, we removed them as thanks to us by invading one country we allowed one to be hanged, the other we bombed the crap out and allowed the rebels capture and murder the other and where busy with the 3rd one till we may have started to realize that what we are reaping what we've been sowing.

Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad may not be posters boys for Human rights, Freedom, liberties and where harsh in anything that would threaten their rule which includes extremism but at least under their rule things where kept under an order people could live their lives by. You don't need to be an expert to know that these countries have a constant struggle of ethnic and between the different sects of the Islam that they can't be ruled unless it's someone with a firm hand that smacks down anything that goes out of order. That's why Western countries like Northern Europe is a paradise for these immigrants...what keeps them in check? Not our soft hand understanding of misunderstood people who break the law constantly justice system and our welfare system which can be easily abused.



Originally Posted by Neal Stevens
Where are the leaders in the ME? The great statesmen who are fighting to wrench the extremists into order and lift up there people?

:/\\!! Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad? Those are the extreme opposite to great statesmen. I was thinking more like Washington, Gandhi, and Mandela.

[Schroeder]

:/\\!! Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad? Those are the extreme opposite to great statesmen. I was thinking more like Washington, Gandhi, and Mandela.
Well, the region was fairly stable with them (after the Kuwait trip that is). Those countries obviously need strong leaders or they will sink into chaos so I rather have a dictator there than an unstable and incompetent democracy that is likely to be overthrown by radical Islamists rather sooner than later.

[HunterICX]

:/\\!! Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad? Those are the extreme opposite to great statesmen. I was thinking more like Washington, Gandhi, and Mandela.

They may be great but they aren't strong to keep a powder keg due to it's diversity in ethnic and religious sects from exploding and spiral down into chaos and civil war as both Libya and Iraq are in since 2014.

[Skybird]

The financial costs for Germany, assuming there will come 2 million new migrants until 2018 who show the same level of real or refuse dintegration and get access to the labour market like the migrants of the past decades (means you assume they will behave in a comparable fashion like the migrants we had coming in past years and decades). 900 billion Euros.. Even beyond 1 trillion possible. The man is calculating the so-called "Nachhaltigkeitslücke", which politicians hate so very much to mention and try to hide form the public at all cost. The term means the explicit and implicit debts of the state calculated together as one variable

German:
http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/finanzexperte-raffelhueschen-die-regierung-weiss-mehr-ueber-die-fluechtlinge-gibt-die-daten-aber-nicht-heraus_id_5300619.html

Economic benefits and short-time stimuli for the economic cycle, play no real, realistic role. They are too minor, and too short-sighted.

An enrichment for Germany, an economic benefit? NO CHANCE. The additional net costs for the German tax payer if calculating costs and possible economic benefits, are in the range of 17 billion.

Per year.

[Schroeder]

The German interior ministry just released that about every 8th asylum seeker vanishes on his way to his housing facility once he has been registered...that's about 130,000 people of whom we have no idea where they are....Great Success!:yeah:

:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

Sorry, German only:
http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/fluechtlinge-1503.html

[Dowly]

Myeah, it's a complete mess. Everything our officials have said since the start of the crisis have been shown to be false (by official studies made years ago).

Now the problem is that the countries of origin, do not want the refused applicants back.. so... I guess they can stay... right?

I am interested to see what happens next spring/summer, it sure won't get any easier.

[Nippelspanner]

Just leaving this here...

http://i.imgur.com/BXy94h1.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/BXy94h1.jpg)

[Schroeder]

Nice reading...(that's sarcasm here...in case someone didn't notice....).if it's accurate which I haven't verified yet.:dead:

[Betonov]

It seems that Germany could do with some Slovene immigrants.

[Catfish]

^ :haha: :up:

[Schroeder]

Another regrettable isolated case of a male Muslim mob of up to 30 people harassing underage girls in a shopping center in Kiel:
(German only)

http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswig-holstein/Mehr-als-20-Maenner-belaestigen-drei-Frauen-in-Kiel,sophienhof100.html


The perpetrators have been released again.:yeah:

[Aktungbby]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-146088/Controversial-French-refugee-camp-closes-doors.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-146088/Controversial-French-refugee-camp-closes-doors.html)
The number of passengers claiming asylum at Dover port has dropped from a high of nearly 1,300 in April to less than 100 a week.
"As we tighten up security even further, those figures will continue to drop," he added.
The British and French governments have agreed to assist those who want to go home voluntarily - including a £1,300 repatriation grant.
Those who are deemed ineligible for refugee status will be returned home.
Other measures agreed by the two ministers include improving security at the Frethun freight depot, putting UK immigration controls into Calais along with hi-tech heartbeat detection equipment....From the talk of razor wire and high security it is hard to remember that these people are the victims not the villains of an international problem.

[Skybird]

Another regrettable isolated case of a male Muslim mob of up to 30 people harassing underage girls in a shopping center in Kiel:
(German only)

http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswig-holstein/Mehr-als-20-Maenner-belaestigen-drei-Frauen-in-Kiel,sophienhof100.html


The perpetrators have been released again.:yeah:

All Afghans and Pakistani this time, it seems. The attacks - I call harassment that: an attack - went on for several hours. When the police finally arrived, they were physically attacked (though not harassed :D ).

Its now in all national major news, not just a regional minor news source.

[Rockstar]

So I take it tolerence and offering everyone house and a hand out isnt working out so well? Maybe just a little more patience on your part. They just need more time to see you really care, then they'll stop behaving like animals. Give it time.

[Nippelspanner]

So I take it tolerence and offering everyone house and a hand out isnt working out so well? Maybe just a little more patience on your part. They just need more time to see you really care, then they'll stop behaving like animals. Give it time.
You are right! :o
Instead of complaining, I should lead by example and draw neat signs that explains to them, even more clearly, not to rape our girls on their way to school. Or on their way back. Or anywhere and anytime at all.

I am too judgmental and probably just afraid of 'the unknown', my worries are completely irrational, unfounded and most likely made up by vicious right-wing-fear-mongers and there is no sane reason to be critical towards people with a cultural background that teaches that Women are property, shall be beaten and after getting raped, executed by bashing their skulls in with stones because they committed adultery when they got raped.

Finally, I am free of all the hate and anger... phew!
So I can at least say I was always PC and 'tolerant' (spine- and brainless) when my head comes off.
:/\\chop

Allahu Akbar my brothers! :)

[Schroeder]

You are right! :o
Instead of complaining, I should lead by example and draw neat signs that explains to them, even more clearly, not to rape our girls on their way to school. Or on their way back. Or anywhere and anytime at all.

NAZI!!!
You disrespect their culture by telling them to respect women! Let them do here what they do at home! How dare you to force our values on them? Didn't you know that everything German (or Western for that matter) is pure EVIL?

:dead:

[STEED]

What is all this about I hear on the radio a anti immigration party is doing well in Germany? :hmm2:

[Betonov]

What is all this about I hear on the radio a anti immigration party is doing well in Germany? :hmm2:

They're slow.
We already had 5 of them (and one pro today) and Slovenia is not even interesting for the migrants

[Dan D]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-146088/Controversial-French-refugee-camp-closes-doors.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-146088/Controversial-French-refugee-camp-closes-doors.html)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-migrants-of-calais/article/2001284#.VtF9GLAZWUM.twitter

"This used to all be trees,” says a French policeman at the Calais approach to the Channel Tunnel, which runs 31 miles under the English Channel to Dover. Mud flats and two-story fences stretch to the horizon".

Well, there were people collecting winter clothing in my town for asylumn seekers stuck in Calais on their way to the UK.

I donated some English-made Tweet jackets from my father who gave them to me after he had retired.

[Nippelspanner]

NAZI!!!
You disrespect their culture by telling them to respect women! Let them do here what they do at home! How dare you to force our values on them? Didn't you know that everything German (or Western for that matter) is pure EVIL?

:dead:
But... of course I am a Nazi?
I am German, therefor I Nazi... wasn't it something like that?
Mrs. Roth, please remind me again about my sins... please.

[Rockstar]

From what I've gathered migrant routes appear to be mostly over water. Doesn't Germany have a navy they can use to reduce the amount of those just waltzing right into Europe?

Does any Eurostate have a M.O.U. or treaty which allows repatriation of those stopped at sea?

We use the U.S. Navy as a platform for drug and migrant interdiction all the time. While their purpose is to go out on shake down in the Caribbean. We take advantage of that and place a small contingent of USCG law enforcement officers onboard to legally conduct interdiction operations.

[Betonov]

Mediteranean nations have a joint task force under NATO for hunting down human trafickers for years.
They're mostly search and rescue missions since they cross in leaking derelicts.
I doubt they would make it a mile out of Gibraltar in those, let alone all the way to the North sea.

[Rockstar]

I was thinking Germany would have their naval forces patrolling the Med looking for migrants not the North Sea.

Search and Rescue or not safeguard the migrants, set fire to the boats or use the craft for target practice and repatriate the people. Its humanitarian and sends a strong message.

[Rockstar]

Italy: mission flagship Aircraft carrier ITS Cavour (javascript:void(0))
Belgium: Karel Doorman-class frigate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Doorman-class_frigate) Leopold I (javascript:void(0))
France: La Fayette-class frigate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Fayette-class_frigate) FS Courbet (javascript:void(0))
Germany: Braunschweig-class corvette (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunschweig-class_corvette) Ludwigshafen am Rhein & Berlin-class replenishment ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin-class_replenishment_ship) Frankfurt am Main
Slovenia: Svetlyak-class patrol boat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetlyak-class_patrol_boat) SNS Triglav (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenian_patrol_boat_Triglav)
Spain: Santa María-class frigate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Mar%C3%ADa-class_frigate) ESPS Numancia (javascript:void(0))
United Kingdom: Type 23 frigate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_23_frigate) HMS Richmond (javascript:void(0)) & Echo-class survey ship (javascript:void(0)) HMS Enterprise (javascript:void(0))



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Navfor_Med


By that list you all dont seem to be taking it very seriously. You need to have a joint operation with the U.S. Navy and see if they'll send a few of their big LSD's.

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg531/AMIO/images/Cuban/AbV.LSD.jpg
If Im not mistaken that big grey beast is the Whidbey Island (a.k.a. The Two Hole Punch). And the 110 foot patrol boat is the one I was on during Abil Vigil in 1994, the Mighty and Most Legendary Cutter Farallon.

[Rockstar]

Yep, that pretty much tells the tale doesnt it you all really arent taking homeland security very serious. I imagine they had to rob Peters navy to pay for migrant Pauls free healthcare and housing.

Even in light of that, Im sure we can still work out a reasonable price to rent you a few LSDs and patrol boats. :D

[Rockstar]

:hmmm:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/


Paper money has no value unless there is debt. So we must rich! lol

[Catfish]

The US is bankrupt since 44 years .. i don't know why no one realizes that any country will slowly go bankrupt. This is inherent to the system. Prices will go up and up until a crisis sets in, and then it's all set for a recession, for war, or a monetary reform without the first two. Printing of more paper money does not help in the long run.

When England leaves the EU, one of the first things will be that real estate prices will fall, and badly. I have heard in London a 12 m2 garage was recently sold for 240,000 [!] Pounds. This only works as long as long as banks vouch for that, and that special bank is covered by EU-backed banks .. in the long run after a Brexit the prices will become more reasonable again, but we are talking 50 and more years here. And people will lose their private money, too. Lehman brothers and the chain reaction following was a good example.

All real estate is completely overrated, not only in the UK of course.
But in that case it's the involved banks own greed and guilt, and not something to blame on the EU.

[Nippelspanner]

The US is bankrupt since 44 years .. i don't know why no one realizes that any country will slowly go bankrupt.
Denial. :yep:

[Rockstar]

Deny what, there's nothing to deny? :O:

[Nippelspanner]

I guess practice makes perfect. :03:

[Betonov]

Tensions really boiled over on the Greece-Macedonia border where migrants tore down the wall and the Macedonian police fired tear gas into the group and re-welded the wall.

http://www.rferl.org/media/video/macedonia-greek-border-clash/27580680.html
(I know, I know, radio free europe sounds less credible than fox news, but the video is genuine)


The Macedonians declared they will only allow daily quotas for entry in accordance to those of the rest on the Balkan migrant route.
They're mostly ignored by Europe but they're still team players.

[Nippelspanner]

http://pi-news.net/wp/uploads/2016/02/moscow_victim-440x229.jpg

Really glad to see a muslim running through Moscow's streets yelling "Allahu Akbar!" - while holding the severed head of a child.
That creates a nice contrast to all the Buddhist psychopaths roaming the streets... oh wait. :huh:

Well, just another unfortunate and isolated incident.
Move along. Nothing to worry about.
La-Ilaha-Illallah!
(just practicing...)

Cynicism aside, I don't even know what to say.
The parents must be done for life. How does one recover from this?
"Sorry, your daughter is dead. Your nanny cut her head of and then showed it around in the streets of Moscow, citing her holy book."

Ugh. :-?

[Rockstar]

Westward? Not a chance keep away from us, we dont want your kind here. You talk funny, drive on the wrong side of the road and your food (blech).

[Jimbuna]

Yeah, the EU is screwed I think, time for every nation for itself.



It's already beginning to look that way. I wonder if Trump will have a few bricks left over for us from that big wall he says he is going to build?

[Nippelspanner]

It's already beginning to look that way. I wonder if Trump will have a few bricks left over for us from that big wall he says he is going to build?
Nope, he will need them for us, when we try to flee from what have been our countries once.

[Skybird]

Two days ago, Merkel, this former Eastgerman youth organisation FdJ's chief secretary for agitation and propaganda, was allowed in a one-hour talkshow to endlessly say that she will not change anything and bla and solidarity and blabla and Europeans and blablabla.

So far nothing unexpected.

Really depressing is that after that broadcast her approval rates have started to significantly grow again. Many Germans again run around with starry eyes. Halleluja, all is saved.

[Nippelspanner]

Two days ago, Merkel, this former Eastgerman youth organisation FdJ's chief secretary for agitation and propaganda, was allowed in a one-hour talkshow to endlessly say that she will not change anything and bla and solidarity and blabla and Europeans and blablabla.

So far nothing unexpected.

Really depressing is that after that broadcast her approval rates have started to significantly grow again. Many Germans again run around with starry eyes. Halleluja, all is saved.
"Deutschland geht es gut!"

[Rockstar]

Any thoughts as to why she is pushing so hard for her immigration policy? Besides ticking people off what the heck is her motivation?

[August]

Nope, he will need them for us, when we try to flee from what have been our countries once.

Large ethnic German populations in Minnesota, the Dakotas, Idaho and Texas. I'm sure they would welcome some German refugees. :yep:

[Schroeder]

Any thoughts as to why she is pushing so hard for her immigration policy? Besides ticking people off what the heck is her motivation?
I have absolutely no idea. Maybe it's just because she can't accept that she's made a huge mistake.:hmm2:

[Nippelspanner]

Large ethnic German populations in Minnesota, the Dakotas, Idaho and Texas. I'm sure they would welcome some German refugees. :yep:
No doubt!
Trump on the other hand... you'll never know. :hmmm:

*sigh*
So I need a green card after all. :nope:
Wait. Someone of you Americans here got a daughter ~25-35, good looking, not fallen on the head, not afraid of Germans? Just... asking. :D

[Skybird]

Any thoughts as to why she is pushing so hard for her immigration policy? Besides ticking people off what the heck is her motivation?
Several explanations possible.

1. possibility:
Megalomania and moral self-glorification. Note that you often can see people who stuck to power for long time, looseng connection to reality. They are so used to get away with their ways or being in power, that they cannot imagine anymore that maybe they meet a situation where their claim for power suddenly gets no longer accepted, or their moral posture gets objected, or their megalomania gets no longer obeyed. You see it with the angry old men in states run by tyrannies, or parties who ruled a country for long time and think this gives them a right to always claim power even if election results show something different. A habit to be always right, to always be in command, to always be in charge, got formed. And habits don't die easily.

2nd possibility:
some weeks before the avalanche was called for, Merkel was confronted by a younger migrant girl in some talk show who came from some other country and her family had lived in Germany for the past I think two or three years. The girl said life was so much more pleasant in Germany and that she would not want to go back. And then - she started to cry, live on TV. Merkel reacted cold (so it was claimed, I did not see the program myself) and rational, an rationally explained what legal reasons prevented to allow her family to stay in Germany. Which resulted in the girl, age 15 or 16, to cry even more, I think. Merkel got plenty of Flak for that TV "cold-hearted" apperance of hers. Very short time later she yelled at all four compass directions that Germany's doors were all open and that all of its gates would let everybody in. - There is an element of synchronicity. Whether it translates into a causal psychological link, I cannot tell.

3rd possibility:
Social psychology knows a phenomenon of group dynamics, which is described like this:
if there is a group, and decisions get formed, and it shows the decision one group member supported was the wrong one, this individual then meets both a group-dynamic preventing it from confessing that the individual decision was wrong (becasue the others must prevent that confession, else they would need to admit that they had been wrong, too), and it also has an own motivation to not admit that it was wrong when all others give the impression to have no doubt, too - else said individual would weaken its own stand in the group hierarchy. You are trapped in a tunnel that becomes narrower and narrower, you cannot turn around and cannot walk back, only move forward - where it becomes even more narrow. - This would predict nothing good for chances that Merkel could chnage her mind.

Merkel has never been known to be person of warm-hearted temper, she only stage-acts like that, wanting to give people the impression - but as I said earlier: agitation and propaganda is nothing new to her, she started her political career in that field - voluntarily. Witnesses say that when they saw her with her husband, a physicist, the talk between the two was very cold and unemotional and sober, distanced somewhat, more polite than personally friendly. Emotions seem to play no role.

She wears a mask. One should never assume, not for one moment, that she is like what she wants to give an impression to be like. Her habitus and rhetorics, her phrasing reminds many Germans, especially Eastgermans who still recall the GDR, of the catch phrases and propaganda slogans that were used by the state propaganda in the GDR. After all, the socialisation in the GDR and her voluntary (!!) career planning in the FdJ formed her character to certain, clearly visible degrees.

I remember that some years ago in one thread I called her the most successful turncoat/flip-flopper of all the former Warsaw Pact states' politicians, and that until today she is successfully deceiving all Europe over that real nature of hers. And I stick to that assessment until today.

[Jimbuna]

Any thoughts as to why she is pushing so hard for her immigration policy? Besides ticking people off what the heck is her motivation?

I believe it is because Germany is facing an ageing working population....younger blood and all that is needed.

[Rockstar]

I believe it is because Germany is facing an ageing working population....younger blood and all that is needed.

Ive read similar speculation, but I have a real hard time believing thats a reason. There are much MUCH better and orderly ways of increasing the size of a workforce through immigration. Than simply open borders allowing an unabated flow of convicts, murders, rapists and neer-do-wells to roam the streets.

[Skybird]

A German economist, Thomas Straubhaar, recently published his view that Germany should be thankful for its shrinking population, since automatization of jobs due to industrial robots will kill available jobs and thus less people will be unemployed.

He combined this view with a demand for an unconditional basic income, though.

There is an unsolved problem at the very basis indeed. If machines and computer take over more and more jobs, and you nevertheless stick to a social model where people need to be employed to get wages by which they live and finance their existence - you have a very basis contradiction between two things that are on course for head-on collision.

I consider this problem since relatively short time only , and so have not formed a final opinion on whether to agree or disagree on pro or contra. I just realise that there is a temptation to seek a simple answer - and it seems the problem indeed is so complex that wanting the easy, comfortable answer indeed may be the direct course into doom. Our industrial and social community models do not match that well anymore, at least for parts of the so-called developed world.

[Jimbuna]

Ive read similar speculation, but I have a real hard time believing thats a reason. There are much MUCH better and orderly ways of increasing the size of a workforce through immigration. Than simply open borders allowing an unabated flow of convicts, murders, rapists and neer-do-wells to roam the streets.

On that we are as one :yep:

[Rockstar]

Well if the reason for immigration really was to increase a productive workforce then I think the German government would have done this differently. Whats happening now is just ridiculous. Maybe it does have more to do with inflated egos and group cluster farks than establishing a sound immigration policy.

[Jimbuna]

Looking back at the last century and the two occasions Germany have been instrumental in serious turmoil in Europe I should imagine that at the current rate there will be the possibility of a third episode sooner rather than later.

Religion and politics can be a very volatile mix.

[Rockstar]

I dont ever see Germany annexing countries to make more room again. No, the next episode is going to be when they implode under the weight of this open door immigration policy.

and a new friendlier europe will emerge and everyone will live happily ever after.

[Catfish]

Maybe we'll see the return of the German states? :hmmm:
Then Lizzie can switch back from Windsor to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha again.

You should not hang your hopes too high :haha:

[Nippelspanner]

Refugees buying one-way tickets home after finding Germany intolerable (http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-refugees-20160301-story.html)



:har: