Escorts Insane detection (GWX)

frigokar · 09-23-14, 06:50 AM

Whats wrong with escorts detection? Is this a bug or intended?

Tried with two diffrent convoys...Lied in wait in front of them, silent running is on (read in a post "way too hard" by fast fed) (also stupid if im staning sumberged,no loading of torpedoes or anything how do they hear me...is my crew banging hammers on the walls when theres nothing to do?)

Anyways both time escorts just come charging at my position pingning and then depth charging...

Its january 1941...

Solution????

banryu79 · 09-23-14, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frigokar

Solution????

In a similar situation I think I will try to stay out of the ASDIC cone of the escorts. If this means NOT to lay in front of the convoy but instead to try an approach from one of the flanks of the convoy... I will go for it!

EDIT:
Also please note that to really be in a "silent running" condition you have to keep your boat engines RPM < 100. You can easly do that specifing directly a speed... for example in a Type VII try with 1 Kt or sligthly less.

Von Tonner · 09-23-14, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frigokar

Whats wrong with escorts detection? Is this a bug or intended?

Tried with two diffrent convoys...Lied in wait in front of them, silent running is on (read in a post "way too hard" by fast fed) (also stupid if im staning sumberged,no loading of torpedoes or anything how do they hear me...is my crew banging hammers on the walls when theres nothing to do?)

Anyways both time escorts just come charging at my position pingning and then depth charging...

Its january 1941...

Solution????

Silent running is not fail safe. It is simply a precaution. In other words on a scale of 0 to 10 it would probably be around 3 depending on weather conditions etc. It can never be a "0"

What I would do if lying in wait in front of a convoy is go as deep as possible until all lead destroyers have passed overhead. Then, and only then would I come up to periscope depth.

With this approach you can have your boat lie horizontally to the convoy as at depth you are unlikely to be picked up. Or if you really want to play safe and give as little footprint as possible, then bring your boat around as you come up. The big advantage to this manoeuvre is that when you do get to periscope depth all tubes, fore and aft can come into immediate play as you more than likely will be right amongst your targets.

Hope this helps.

frigokar · 09-23-14, 11:13 AM

I am not moving or making any noise and escorts still charge at me...dont tell me you play like this and take this as normal game behaviour...i played silent hunter a long time ago...but started playing recently with GWX and 1980x1080 gui mod.Even at late years escorts were not clairvoyant

Since all the people here suggest always something like dont make noise or maybe they see your periscope on radar ( its 1941 and no my periscope is down)
im assuming this is some kind of bug only happening to some people.

If you stayed 10 km in front of the convoy,submerged at night with some fog and waves,silent running no periscope or any kind of movement,loading and such and a escort comes closing EXACTLY on your position dropping depth charges and pinging...then i guess you would know what im talking about

Von Tonner · 09-23-14, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frigokar

If you stayed 10 km in front of the convoy,submerged at night with some fog and waves,silent running no periscope or any kind of movement,loading and such

I play GWX and yes, sometimes I stick my periscope up and all I see is a damn destroyer bearing right down on me. Not all the time though.

My question is. What depth are you at when they pick you up? I ask that because as you know - "depth is your friend"

frigokar · 09-23-14, 11:53 AM

periscope depth...but how are they picking me up...through what appartus?

Ping Jockey · 09-23-14, 12:22 PM

GWX changes the Sonar settings in the Sim folder. The stock settings make it to easy to go undetected.

Von Tonner · 09-23-14, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frigokar

periscope depth...but how are they picking me up...through what appartus?

If you are 10 kilometers out there should be no way at all that they could pick you up. The GWX Manuel gives early war sonar range at 1 to 2 kilometers depending on variables.

Some posters are of the opinion that this range has been boosted in GWX. But if you are been picked up 10k's out that is simply amazing. There is no ways you would even be able to get close to a convoy.

maillemaker · 09-23-14, 12:46 PM

In 1941 you should have no problem with a frontal-quadrant attack.

My ideal attack pattern is to plot an intercept directly in front of a convoy, then angle my course towards the outside of the convoy. I turn away from the convoy as required to keep my boat at least 1500 meters away from the lead escort. You should be at silent running throughout the approach. This means instructing your engineer to set silent running but also means running no faster than ahead slow. Sometimes, if I am scooting quite close by the lead escort I will even order all stop and coast while he goes by.

If I'm not able to position myself directly in front of the convoy I will try and approach from the side such that I am beside the lead escort but will pass well in front of the lead flank escort. You are basically trying to thread the needle avoiding detection between those two escorts. It is easiest to let the convoy run you over and only have to dodge the lead escort. This can be tricky though as the lead escort often weaves back and forth in front of the convoy. If he happens to be moving towards you while you are trying to slide past him, bad things can happen.

Note that this approach obviously only works if the convoy has not already been alerted to your presence through a visual or radar contact. Once they start zig-zagging your will not be able to make a silent approach - they are alerted and they will find you.

Once you get into 1943 it is generally not a good idea to try to get inside the convoy. At that point your only real hope is long range shots from 5000+ meters with pattern-running torpedoes and hope your Hail Mary shots hit something while you dive and avoid detection. You must avoid detection at all costs by that time of the war or you are finished. Also I recommend not making any attack against any target where ASW vessels are within range without having 100% hull integrity so that you can dive to your maximum depth.

Once you get homing torpedoes you can once again get in close to the convoys if you are good enough to pick off the escorts with the magic torpedoes.

Steve

frigokar · 09-23-14, 01:00 PM

il try reinstaling everything...maybe try NYGM...alternatively im gonna wait for living sh5...tnx for help but i think this kind of **** doesent happen to you and i hope it doesent...

BigWalleye · 09-23-14, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frigokar

il try reinstaling everything...maybe try NYGM...alternatively im gonna wait for living sh5...tnx for help but i think this kind of **** doesent happen to you and i hope it doesent...

Since GWX is the only mod you are using, a complete uninstall, registry cleanup, and reinstall should take maybe 20 minutes. I'd encourage you to also re-download GWX3 before you do the reinstall. All told, you will invest less time than continuing to try and pin down the problem. Why fight it?

UKönig · 09-23-14, 06:37 PM

Here is some technical information about the type VIIC (sound profiles) from U-boat archive.net, enjoy!

Page 24
A. Ship Information
U-Boat Type VIIC

24
I. General
U-boat Information

h) Sound levels (from testing with "U-45 and "U-51")
(updated for VII C boats after testing)

Boat lying on the bottom
Sound from auxiliary machinery at 250 meters distance
Operating: Underwater telegraphy converter and gyro compass

Not heard
Gyro compass-circulation pump
Gyro compass- converter
Extending attack periscope
Extending air search periscope
Tracking motor in torpedo data computer
Dive planes electric drive
Dive planes (hand drive)
Main rudder electric drive
Quiet
Radio converter
Hydraulic oil pump
W.C. pump
Echolot (shallow depth device)
Control valves for the periscope drive
Engine order telegraph without buzzer
Main rudder (hand drive)
Moderately loud
UT converter
Auxiliary LO pump
Retracting attack periscope
Retracting air search periscope
Compartment ventilation fan
Engine order telegraph with buzzer
Loud
Main drain pump
Walking in the boat
Very loud
Auxiliary drain and trim pump
Air compressor
Drive motor for turning attack periscope
Speaking in the boat
Working in the boat
Echolot (deep depth device)

Boat hanging on the periscope

Sound from auxiliary machinery at 250 meters distance. Motors stopped. No auxiliary machinery except for UT converter and gyro compass.

Not heard
Extending air search periscope
Extending attack periscope
Moderately loud
Retracting air search periscope
Retracting attack periscope

Boat at attack depth
Boat driven at attack depth in a circle of 500 meters radius
Not heard
One motor KF = 50 RPM
Attack periscope
Dive plane driving motor
Both motors KF = 50 RPM
Compartment ventilating fan
Both dive plane driving motors
Quiet
Draining and trimming with air
Operating both dive planes by hand
Both motors 80 RPM
Loud
Draining and trimming with auxiliary drain and trim pump
Both motors 140 RPM
Both motors 120 RPM
Both motors LF 100 RPM
Very loud
Both motors 250 RPM
Both motors 200 RPM
Both motors 180 RPM
Both motors 160 RPM
At starboard 110 and port 90 RPM the noise is weaker than with both motors at 100 RPM
Draining and trimming by means of air at 80 RPM or less: slight noise is audible.
Detection range with different RPM rates (submerged)
At 80 RPM: 4500 meters (Detection range particularly large because of howling sound)
At 160 RPM: 5000 meters (Detection range lowered.)

From the U-boat owner's manual, about as official as it gets...

banryu79 · 09-24-14, 02:52 AM

Kudos to you UKönig!

Thanks for the awsome info!

So it looks like GWX is not hitting us with random stuff... very intresting

This means the game probably requires a high degree of attention, care and situational awarness (and a bit of experience) from each wannabe kaleun who would try to put his feet in this kind of simulated shoes...

BigWalleye · 09-24-14, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banryu79

Kudos to you UKönig!

Thanks for the awsome info!

So it looks like GWX is not hitting us with random stuff... very intresting

This means the game probably requires a high degree of attention, care and situational awarness (and a bit of experience) from each wannabe kaleun who would try to put his feet in this kind of simulated shoes...

That is always presuming that GWX accurately models these sound profiles. And that the SH3 game engine actually is flexible enough and precise enough to permit such modeling. I don't know if either of these is true, but I'll bet there are people around this forum who do.

Otherwise, it comes down to individual experience to ascertain what is really going on in the game (as opposed to what was true R/L).

For example, UKönig's post basically says that running slow (80 rpm) doesn't significantly lower detection range compared to running about Ahead One-Third (160 rpm). Is this borne out by experience?

Quote:

Detection range with different RPM rates (submerged)
At 80 RPM: 4500 meters (Detection range particularly large because of howling sound)
At 160 RPM: 5000 meters (Detection range lowered.)

Other examples: I have seen posts indicating that, in the game, the Echolot is never heard by the enemy, and this is borne out by my own experience. In R/L, raising a scope does not produce any noise, but lowering one does. I haven't noticed such behavior, but it might be present in-game.

Most of the activites classed as "Loud" or "Very Loud" are prevented when in Silent Running. But turning the attack periscope is allowed, and, AFAIK, does not increase detection probability.

We are more fortunate than our R/L prototypes, because we can learn from all of our experiences, successful or not. They only learned from the ones that didn't get them killed.

In the end, the model is what the model is, and it is not a U-boat.

sublynx · 09-24-14, 11:08 AM

Some suggestions:

re-install just in case you have detection range settings corrupted

after that:

try

1. waiting for bad weather
2. keeping a distance of 2000 meters to the escorts
3. minimizing up periscope time
4. running at 50 RPM
5. occasionally switching off engines altogether
6. keeping your bow turned towards the closest escort

Don't get frustrated by a failed approach, take notes about the situation instead and try something new on the next attempt

The approach will get more and more difficult by the years, so:

7. Start learning how to shoot from a minimum distance of 4500 - 5000 meters

09-23-14, 06:50 AM	#1
frigokar Sailor man Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 45 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	Escorts Insane detection (GWX) Whats wrong with escorts detection? Is this a bug or intended? Tried with two diffrent convoys...Lied in wait in front of them, silent running is on (read in a post "way too hard" by fast fed) (also stupid if im staning sumberged,no loading of torpedoes or anything how do they hear me...is my crew banging hammers on the walls when theres nothing to do?) Anyways both time escorts just come charging at my position pingning and then depth charging... Its january 1941... Solution????

09-23-14, 12:22 PM	#7
Ping Jockey Medic Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 159 Downloads: 294 Uploads: 0	GWX changes the Sonar settings in the Sim folder. The stock settings make it to easy to go undetected. __________________ I joined the U S Navy in 1964. Saw the world and a lot more.

09-23-14, 06:37 PM	#12
UKönig Captain Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 495 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Here is some technical information about the type VIIC (sound profiles) from U-boat archive.net, enjoy! Page 24 A. Ship Information U-Boat Type VIIC 24 I. General U-boat Information h) Sound levels (from testing with "U-45 and "U-51") (updated for VII C boats after testing) Boat lying on the bottom Sound from auxiliary machinery at 250 meters distance Operating: Underwater telegraphy converter and gyro compass Not heard Gyro compass-circulation pump Gyro compass- converter Extending attack periscope Extending air search periscope Tracking motor in torpedo data computer Dive planes electric drive Dive planes (hand drive) Main rudder electric drive Quiet Radio converter Hydraulic oil pump W.C. pump Echolot (shallow depth device) Control valves for the periscope drive Engine order telegraph without buzzer Main rudder (hand drive) Moderately loud UT converter Auxiliary LO pump Retracting attack periscope Retracting air search periscope Compartment ventilation fan Engine order telegraph with buzzer Loud Main drain pump Walking in the boat Very loud Auxiliary drain and trim pump Air compressor Drive motor for turning attack periscope Speaking in the boat Working in the boat Echolot (deep depth device) Boat hanging on the periscope Sound from auxiliary machinery at 250 meters distance. Motors stopped. No auxiliary machinery except for UT converter and gyro compass. Not heard Extending air search periscope Extending attack periscope Moderately loud Retracting air search periscope Retracting attack periscope Boat at attack depth Boat driven at attack depth in a circle of 500 meters radius Not heard One motor KF = 50 RPM Attack periscope Dive plane driving motor Both motors KF = 50 RPM Compartment ventilating fan Both dive plane driving motors Quiet Draining and trimming with air Operating both dive planes by hand Both motors 80 RPM Loud Draining and trimming with auxiliary drain and trim pump Both motors 140 RPM Both motors 120 RPM Both motors LF 100 RPM Very loud Both motors 250 RPM Both motors 200 RPM Both motors 180 RPM Both motors 160 RPM At starboard 110 and port 90 RPM the noise is weaker than with both motors at 100 RPM Draining and trimming by means of air at 80 RPM or less: slight noise is audible. Detection range with different RPM rates (submerged) At 80 RPM: 4500 meters (Detection range particularly large because of howling sound) At 160 RPM: 5000 meters (Detection range lowered.) From the U-boat owner's manual, about as official as it gets... __________________ Because I'm the captain, that's why!

09-24-14, 11:08 AM	#15
sublynx Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: In the conning tower of my VIIC scanning the sea through the periscope Posts: 1,698 Downloads: 173 Uploads: 7	Some suggestions: re-install just in case you have detection range settings corrupted after that: try 1. waiting for bad weather 2. keeping a distance of 2000 meters to the escorts 3. minimizing up periscope time 4. running at 50 RPM 5. occasionally switching off engines altogether 6. keeping your bow turned towards the closest escort Don't get frustrated by a failed approach, take notes about the situation instead and try something new on the next attempt The approach will get more and more difficult by the years, so: 7. Start learning how to shoot from a minimum distance of 4500 - 5000 meters __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] NYGM+H.sie v16+Stiebler 4C+MaGui WS

09-23-14, 11:13 AM	#4
frigokar Sailor man Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 45 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	I am not moving or making any noise and escorts still charge at me...dont tell me you play like this and take this as normal game behaviour...i played silent hunter a long time ago...but started playing recently with GWX and 1980x1080 gui mod.Even at late years escorts were not clairvoyant Since all the people here suggest always something like dont make noise or maybe they see your periscope on radar ( its 1941 and no my periscope is down) im assuming this is some kind of bug only happening to some people. If you stayed 10 km in front of the convoy,submerged at night with some fog and waves,silent running no periscope or any kind of movement,loading and such and a escort comes closing EXACTLY on your position dropping depth charges and pinging...then i guess you would know what im talking about

09-23-14, 11:53 AM	#6
frigokar Sailor man Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 45 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	periscope depth...but how are they picking me up...through what appartus?

09-23-14, 12:46 PM	#9
maillemaker Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,639 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	In 1941 you should have no problem with a frontal-quadrant attack. My ideal attack pattern is to plot an intercept directly in front of a convoy, then angle my course towards the outside of the convoy. I turn away from the convoy as required to keep my boat at least 1500 meters away from the lead escort. You should be at silent running throughout the approach. This means instructing your engineer to set silent running but also means running no faster than ahead slow. Sometimes, if I am scooting quite close by the lead escort I will even order all stop and coast while he goes by. If I'm not able to position myself directly in front of the convoy I will try and approach from the side such that I am beside the lead escort but will pass well in front of the lead flank escort. You are basically trying to thread the needle avoiding detection between those two escorts. It is easiest to let the convoy run you over and only have to dodge the lead escort. This can be tricky though as the lead escort often weaves back and forth in front of the convoy. If he happens to be moving towards you while you are trying to slide past him, bad things can happen. Note that this approach obviously only works if the convoy has not already been alerted to your presence through a visual or radar contact. Once they start zig-zagging your will not be able to make a silent approach - they are alerted and they will find you. Once you get into 1943 it is generally not a good idea to try to get inside the convoy. At that point your only real hope is long range shots from 5000+ meters with pattern-running torpedoes and hope your Hail Mary shots hit something while you dive and avoid detection. You must avoid detection at all costs by that time of the war or you are finished. Also I recommend not making any attack against any target where ASW vessels are within range without having 100% hull integrity so that you can dive to your maximum depth. Once you get homing torpedoes you can once again get in close to the convoys if you are good enough to pick off the escorts with the magic torpedoes. Steve

09-23-14, 01:00 PM	#10
frigokar Sailor man Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 45 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	il try reinstaling everything...maybe try NYGM...alternatively im gonna wait for living sh5...tnx for help but i think this kind of **** doesent happen to you and i hope it doesent...

09-24-14, 02:52 AM	#13
banryu79 Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Italy Posts: 554 Downloads: 82 Uploads: 2	Kudos to you UKönig! Thanks for the awsome info! So it looks like GWX is not hitting us with random stuff... very intresting This means the game probably requires a high degree of attention, care and situational awarness (and a bit of experience) from each wannabe kaleun who would try to put his feet in this kind of simulated shoes...