The Scottish Independence thread - Yay or Nay?

MGR1 · 01-04-14, 09:11 AM

OK, since we don't have one of these......

As most of you may or may not be aware, this September Scotland gets to vote on whether it wants to be an independent country and leave the UK.

My own opinion is that independence comes under the heading of "A Bad Thing" and I will personally be voting no, for various reasons.

One thing that has me concerned is a distinct feeling that most English people don't really give a toss what happens up here, almost as if they view Scotland as a separate country already. The recent hoo-ha over Alistair Darling's "Comatose" leadership of the Better Together campaign has only increased this concern.

What I would like to see are your arguments both for and against independence, but also your thoughts on the process of Devolution itself.

Do you feel devolution is a complete waste of time and should be abolished and everything brought back to Westminster?

Or do you think that there should be more devolution, with each regional assembly getting more powers and England getting it's own parliament, therefore turning the "United Kingdom" into the "Federated Kingdom"?

Some articles to get the brain working - I'd appreciate it if peeps would take the time to read these.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/john_cu...ight_1_1500373

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/op...pagewanted=all

http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnist...ion-will-lose/

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...ey-shouldnt-be

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...tish-1-3113520

Over to you gents - Devolution good or devolution bad?

(Oh, and Bossmark and Steed, if you are going to contribute I'd like something that isn't monosyllabic - I'm aware both of you don't really like Scotland!

)

Mike.

Oberon · 01-04-14, 09:29 AM

In theory Devolution is a good idea, it doesn't make too much sense that things in Aberdeen are run from Westminster, but full on independence is, I think, a bridge too far. I hope that most rational Scots will see it this way, and be able to look beyond the anti-Sassenach stirrings from Alex Salmond who seems to have very little planning for post-independence and has based his entire campaign around just getting independence rather than worrying about what happens if he achieves it.
The thing is, in our own seperate ways, England and Scotland have achieved some things worthy of note, but together we ruled over an empire that was the biggest ever seen, we were the forefront of the planet for a century and it was a joint effort that saw us through. Certainly the British armed forces have benefitted immensely from being able to call on the 'devils in skirts' to get the job done, and Scotland has benefitted from advances made in the south, although admittedly not as much as the south has, and the fact that there is a North/South divide in England alone, let alone between England and Scotland is a regrettable thing.

Perhaps it's just because I am a union of the two, with a Scottish father and an English mother, I feel a loyalty to both countries and thus consider myself British, with the history and characteristics that come with it. Culloden was a long time ago, let's not resserect ancient arguments to sacrifice the progress that has been made.

Let's stick together.

Sailor Steve · 01-04-14, 09:38 AM

Sometimes the search function actually works.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...h+independence

MGR1 · 01-04-14, 09:51 AM

Alright Steve - my mistake!

No need for the remark though - it's a bit uncalled for.

I did try the search engine but didn't pick up on it - either I didn't put in the right search terms - or more likely I missed it when I skimmed through....

Either way, an honest error, as I did look.

Anyway, since that thread descended into farce, I'd like to try and keep this in a serious vein, if possible!

@Oberon: I quite agree - I'm 1/4 English, 1/4 Shetlander and 1/2 Scottish Mainland with relatives at literally both ends of the country (not that I've any intention of setting foot in Pompey just now - might not be safe.....) and consider myself both Scottish and British co-equally.

As for Culloden, if anyone actually looked at the history instead of the jingoism, they'll see that it was actually Scots vs English and Scots. 1745 was a civil war of sorts!

Whats got my thought processes going is that my cousins in Portsmouth didn't have a clue who Alec Salmond was when he appeared on telly (though they do now) and had very little interest in what happened up north.

That and various comments I've heard and seen make me wonder if England's really all that bothered?

Mike.

Oberon · 01-04-14, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Sometimes the search function actually works.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...h+independence

Sailor Steve · 01-04-14, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGR1

Alright Steve - my mistake!

No need for the remark though - it's a bit uncalled for.

Then I apologize. I was thinking I should post something other than just a link. My bad.

Quote:

I did try the search engine but didn't pick up on it - either I didn't put in the right search terms - or more likely I missed it when I skimmed through....

Either way, an honest error, as I did look.

Then I'm even more at fault. I'm probably jaded due to seeing so many people not use it. I will leave my comment in place, though, as if I remove it then your reply and this one will make no sense.

Quote:

Anyway, since that thread descended into farce, I'd like to try and keep this in a serious vein, if possible!

Probably a good idea. I'll try to help you in that goal, if I can.

nikimcbee · 01-04-14, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

...and I thought I had free time one my hands.

Sailor Steve · 01-04-14, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Only sometimes:

And that's just going back by two months....

And that's what I meant about people not using it. Of course many of them just don't care.

nikimcbee · 01-04-14, 10:44 AM

Motion to change search link to: "Just ask Oberon."

Taking votes now.

Oberon · 01-04-14, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGR1

@Oberon: I quite agree - I'm 1/4 English, 1/4 Shetlander and 1/2 Scottish Mainland with relatives at literally both ends of the country (not that I've any intention of setting foot in Pompey just now - might not be safe.....) and consider myself both Scottish and British co-equally.

As for Culloden, if anyone actually looked at the history instead of the jingoism, they'll see that it was actually Scots vs English and Scots. 1745 was a civil war of sorts!

Whats got my thought processes going is that my cousins in Portsmouth didn't have a clue who Alec Salmond was when he appeared on telly (though they do now) and had very little interest in what happened up north.

That and various comments I've heard and seen make me wonder if England's really all that bothered?

Mike.

I imagine as we get nearer September the media will bring up the referendum more and more so people down south will get more acustomed to seeing Alec giving it his all. I think though that if Scotland really did vote in favour that it would shock most people, although many of them would probably think it's a seperate country anyway but that's the Celebrity Big Brother generation for you.

Certainly though aside from the odd snippet in the news, usually when Alec has put forward a new claim that Scotland will be better independent, the pending referendum doesn't take up much time in the southern media, although I expect that to change as the year goes on.
It was rather a mess back then, wasn't it? Between that and the Highland Clearances later on, it's understandable why many Scots hold a grudge against Westminster, and there's certainly more than enough evidence to point out a North-South divide in the country.
It's quite funny though, really, because I did a bit of digging into my ancestry last year, and found that even on the English side of the family, the 'Clack's originated from Scotland back in the 1700s (probably originally from Clackmannanshire) so all roads lead to the north it would seem.

Jimbuna · 01-04-14, 11:01 AM

I'm for the union but should the vote go for leaving, then Scotland need to take with them their share of the national debt, sort out their own currency and defence.

Herr-Berbunch · 01-04-14, 01:01 PM

Personally the majority of me would like the union to remain, any vote will be unfair - why should only the Scots get a vote that affects England too, and why should a devolved government still have a voice in Westminster? The minority me thinks those that want independence should get it but rely not one iota on the rest of us.

This goes for Wales and Ulster too. And Kernow!

Dread Knot · 01-04-14, 01:20 PM

This question does seem to be an emotional one.

However, the impression I get from relatives living abroad is that most Scots are ambivalent about their emotional loyalty. Given a clear case of wearing a blue shirt or a white one, it's quite clear who they support, but when it comes to politics, finances, and nationality, the waters are far murkier.
I'm slowly - and somewhat to my surprise- being forced to conclude that most Scots are emotionally far more British than they will admit.

STEED · 01-04-14, 01:37 PM

I couldn't give a rats arse.

Aktungbby · 01-04-14, 02:03 PM

It will be voted down; Even the HRM is a Scot on her late beloved mom's side, a MacClean of the Ilk of Mull, if I'm not mistaken, as is my wife. I'm a Kincaid, sub clan of the Glasgow(murderous cutthroats n' reivers) area myself and Scots-Irish-German as is half of the American nation and most of Appalachia. I suspect very strongly that there be insufficient "'wang' under the kilt"(old drinking song lyric) to carry the motion.

01-04-14, 09:11 AM	#1
MGR1 Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, United Kingdom Posts: 980 Downloads: 252 Uploads: 0	The Scottish Independence thread - Yay or Nay? OK, since we don't have one of these...... As most of you may or may not be aware, this September Scotland gets to vote on whether it wants to be an independent country and leave the UK. My own opinion is that independence comes under the heading of "A Bad Thing" and I will personally be voting no, for various reasons. One thing that has me concerned is a distinct feeling that most English people don't really give a toss what happens up here, almost as if they view Scotland as a separate country already. The recent hoo-ha over Alistair Darling's "Comatose" leadership of the Better Together campaign has only increased this concern. What I would like to see are your arguments both for and against independence, but also your thoughts on the process of Devolution itself. Do you feel devolution is a complete waste of time and should be abolished and everything brought back to Westminster? Or do you think that there should be more devolution, with each regional assembly getting more powers and England getting it's own parliament, therefore turning the "United Kingdom" into the "Federated Kingdom"? Some articles to get the brain working - I'd appreciate it if peeps would take the time to read these. http://www.scotsman.com/news/john_cu...ight_1_1500373 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/op...pagewanted=all http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnist...ion-will-lose/ http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...ey-shouldnt-be http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...tish-1-3113520 Over to you gents - Devolution good or devolution bad? (Oh, and Bossmark and Steed, if you are going to contribute I'd like something that isn't monosyllabic - I'm aware both of you don't really like Scotland!) Mike. __________________ "I am the battleship Jean Bart. This name originates from a certain 'respected' privateer... Yes? You want to know what privateers are? Hmph, they are pirates that rob openly under the banner of their country." Jean Bart from the mobile game Azur Lane.

01-04-14, 09:38 AM	#3
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Sometimes the search function actually works. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...h+independence __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

01-04-14, 09:51 AM	#4
MGR1 Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, United Kingdom Posts: 980 Downloads: 252 Uploads: 0	Alright Steve - my mistake! No need for the remark though - it's a bit uncalled for. I did try the search engine but didn't pick up on it - either I didn't put in the right search terms - or more likely I missed it when I skimmed through.... Either way, an honest error, as I did look. Anyway, since that thread descended into farce, I'd like to try and keep this in a serious vein, if possible! @Oberon: I quite agree - I'm 1/4 English, 1/4 Shetlander and 1/2 Scottish Mainland with relatives at literally both ends of the country (not that I've any intention of setting foot in Pompey just now - might not be safe.....) and consider myself both Scottish and British co-equally. As for Culloden, if anyone actually looked at the history instead of the jingoism, they'll see that it was actually Scots vs English and Scots. 1745 was a civil war of sorts! Whats got my thought processes going is that my cousins in Portsmouth didn't have a clue who Alec Salmond was when he appeared on telly (though they do now) and had very little interest in what happened up north. That and various comments I've heard and seen make me wonder if England's really all that bothered? Mike. __________________ "I am the battleship Jean Bart. This name originates from a certain 'respected' privateer... Yes? You want to know what privateers are? Hmph, they are pirates that rob openly under the banner of their country." Jean Bart from the mobile game Azur Lane.

01-04-14, 10:44 AM	#9
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Motion to change search link to: "Just ask Oberon." Taking votes now. __________________

01-04-14, 11:01 AM	#11
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,520 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I'm for the union but should the vote go for leaving, then Scotland need to take with them their share of the national debt, sort out their own currency and defence. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-04-14, 09:29 AM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	In theory Devolution is a good idea, it doesn't make too much sense that things in Aberdeen are run from Westminster, but full on independence is, I think, a bridge too far. I hope that most rational Scots will see it this way, and be able to look beyond the anti-Sassenach stirrings from Alex Salmond who seems to have very little planning for post-independence and has based his entire campaign around just getting independence rather than worrying about what happens if he achieves it. The thing is, in our own seperate ways, England and Scotland have achieved some things worthy of note, but together we ruled over an empire that was the biggest ever seen, we were the forefront of the planet for a century and it was a joint effort that saw us through. Certainly the British armed forces have benefitted immensely from being able to call on the 'devils in skirts' to get the job done, and Scotland has benefitted from advances made in the south, although admittedly not as much as the south has, and the fact that there is a North/South divide in England alone, let alone between England and Scotland is a regrettable thing. Perhaps it's just because I am a union of the two, with a Scottish father and an English mother, I feel a loyalty to both countries and thus consider myself British, with the history and characteristics that come with it. Culloden was a long time ago, let's not resserect ancient arguments to sacrifice the progress that has been made. Let's stick together.

01-04-14, 01:01 PM	#12
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	Personally the majority of me would like the union to remain, any vote will be unfair - why should only the Scots get a vote that affects England too, and why should a devolved government still have a voice in Westminster? The minority me thinks those that want independence should get it but rely not one iota on the rest of us. This goes for Wales and Ulster too. And Kernow! __________________

01-04-14, 01:20 PM	#13
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	This question does seem to be an emotional one. However, the impression I get from relatives living abroad is that most Scots are ambivalent about their emotional loyalty. Given a clear case of wearing a blue shirt or a white one, it's quite clear who they support, but when it comes to politics, finances, and nationality, the waters are far murkier. I'm slowly - and somewhat to my surprise- being forced to conclude that most Scots are emotionally far more British than they will admit.

01-04-14, 01:37 PM	#14
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	I couldn't give a rats arse. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

01-04-14, 02:03 PM	#15
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 29,999 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	It will be voted down; Even the HRM is a Scot on her late beloved mom's side, a MacClean of the Ilk of Mull, if I'm not mistaken, as is my wife. I'm a Kincaid, sub clan of the Glasgow(murderous cutthroats n' reivers) area myself and Scots-Irish-German as is half of the American nation and most of Appalachia. I suspect very strongly that there be insufficient "'wang' under the kilt"(old drinking song lyric) to carry the motion. __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!