J. Stiglitz: The American Dream has become a myth

Skybird · 10-02-12, 06:21 PM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-858906.html

Quote:

Stiglitz: In the last decades, income and wealth disparity have grown dramatically in this country. Let me give you an example: In 2011, the six heirs to the Walmart empire commanded wealth of almost $70 billion, which is equivalent to the wealth of the entire bottom 30 percent of US society.

SPIEGEL: The US has always thought of itself as a land of opportunity where people can go from rags to riches. What has become of the American dream?

Stiglitz: This belief is still powerful, but the American dream has become a myth. The life chances of a young US citizen are more dependent on the income and education of his parents than in any other advanced industrial country for which there is data. The belief in the American dream is reinforced by anecdotes, by dramatic examples of individuals who have made it from the bottom to the top -- but what matters most are an individual's life chances. The belief in the American dream is not supported by the data.

I sometimes think Stiglitz is a good diagnostic. But with his recipes for healing that he prescribes, I often found myself having problems with.

Cybermat47 · 10-02-12, 06:24 PM

Oh dear.
Well, I don't like to brag or anything, but it looks like Australia's becoming the 'Land of Oppurtunity'.

Oh dear.

Oberon · 10-02-12, 06:32 PM

Well...it IS called a 'dream', and not everyones dreams come true. In fact, it's a pretty rare event.
Honestly though, compared to other nations, Americans, even those at the lower end of the scale, still have it damn good. To an Afghani, Somalian or Mexican, America is still the place of 'The American Dream', even a Harlem slum would be (just about) better than a house in Kabul, and your chances of being killed on the way to the shops are marginally less in Harlem...only marginally though.

It's population shift, people will always look for somewhere that is better than where they are, be it inside their own country or, if they are able to, outside of their country.

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

eddie · 10-02-12, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

Just 1, Assange!

Sailor Steve · 10-02-12, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

Back in the Cold War days, I heard someone pretty much finish an argument with the simple statement "America is the only country I know of that builds walls to keep people out."

Yours is quite good too. Thanks.

JU_88 · 10-02-12, 06:43 PM

"The life chances of a young US citizen are more dependent on the income and education of his parents than in any other advanced industrial country for which there is data"

What data? I really dont see how anyone can messure that with any degree of accuracy..

Takeda Shingen · 10-02-12, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Back in the Cold War days, I heard someone pretty much finish an argument with the simple statement "America is the only country I know of that builds walls to keep people out."

Yes and yes.

AVGWarhawk · 10-02-12, 06:48 PM

Not every American share the same dream. To some, having a 4 slice toaster is living the dream. I guess the article is under the assumption that everyone has the dream of home ownership or something of that nature. It is not entirely true. My one coworker has no desire to own a home. Riches are not always a dream.

NeonSamurai · 10-02-12, 06:51 PM

Pretty simple actually, you can do it from tax return data. Look at what the parents made, then look at what their kids make. With census data and other stuff you can build a pretty decent picture of a family's socioeconomic status.

Anyhow I don't think the American dream was ever true to be frank. More a mythology that is effective in keeping the lower classes working, by convincing them if they work hard enough they can make it. Problem is almost all of them are very hard working (many I know personally often work 3 jobs or more 12-14 hour days, 7 days a week). We like to think that those people on the bottom deserve their fate, they are lazy freeloaders and don't try hard enough. Nothing could be further from the truth in most cases, they just don't have any chance and never did.

JU_88 · 10-02-12, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Pretty simple actually, you can do it from tax return data. Look at what the parents made, then look at what their kids make. With census data and other stuff you can build a pretty decent picture of a family's socioeconomic status..

True, but doesnt that just prove that those who had parents with more money received a better education? Isnt that pretty much a just a cycle you'd expect?
Also there are many successful entrepeneurs in America, its not like having a masters and getting into someone else club is the only way up.

soopaman2 · 10-02-12, 07:08 PM

I just want to make enough to eat, love my wife, and not have to worry about tomorrow.

Sounds alot like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness.

Americans seek security.

But what we have is uncertainty, as we have all our wealth flowing upwards. Most of us, worry about our jobs, or we lose vacations and sick days, so the boss can get a raise....

Thank goodness, I am in one of the few professions that cannot be outsourced. Don't mean they do not strip us to barebones benefits in the process.

I shoulda became a government worker,dammit I had my chance too...They never gave back, they always took more, while we all took less in sacrifice to the bad economy.

Skybird · 10-02-12, 07:50 PM

If more and more of the national wealth is accumulated in few and fewer hands, then this means problem in any country, no matter which political and economical system it runs by. There is also a problem of increasing power in few hands, and collapsing checks and balances. Money is influence, money actively creates opportunity to bypass checks and balances, and rules. The system gets eroded from inner self-dynamics. It is said that everything that exists, already carries the germ of its own destruction within itself. Its true, I think.

Wealth increasingly accumulating at the top creates self-dynamic accumulation effects from generation to generation. The problem worsens constantly. The debt crisis is an expression of that, and on multiple levels.

Every nation has its founding myths by which it runs and to which it's self-assessment returns when it meets trouble. Like a child meeting something frightening and then runs home to mama. In modern Germany there are two such myths: that all people must be made equal (not equal chances or equal rights, but must be made equal) and that Germany must dissolve to unite all Europe into one Germany-less entity. In America it is the fairy tale of from-rags-to-riches and melting pot. It seems to me for every little detail that supports any of these, there are a dozen details that contradict them, and every single case where an individual's life reflects these myths, there are a hundred or more, who lose, or fail to function according to the myth's definition or expectation. And the scissor opens wider and wider.

Capitalism seeks monopolism, and interest-based money lending increases circulating ammount of money without that additional money being covered by a matching increase in real value. Which inevitably runs the constant devaluation of money due to rich people saving money, and make profit from lending it. That money is either uncovered by real value, or is missing where it is needed - amongst those who are not rich. So they must borrow. The rich have, and become richer, the poor have not, and loose even more.

Stealhead · 10-02-12, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I just want to make enough to eat, love my wife, and not have to worry about tomorrow.

Sounds alot like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness.

Americans seek security.

But what we have is uncertainty, as we have all our wealth flowing upwards. Most of us, worry about our jobs, or we lose vacations and sick days, so the boss can get a raise....

Thank goodness, I am in one of the few professions that cannot be outsourced. Don't mean they do not strip us to barebones benefits in the process.

I shoulda became a government worker,dammit I had my chance too...They never gave back, they always took more, while we all took less in sacrifice to the bad economy.

What is your trade Soopa cant you work for yourself or have a few partners get yourself a contractors lic. I do commercial refrigeration myself and just recently started a small business with another HVAC guy its just the two of us and two trucks and the gear and helpers when needed.

Anyway the "American Dream".

Dream seems like a poor choice of words to me a dream is something surreal something in your subconsciousness that rarely directly reflects reality.You have a dream where your teeth fall out it is because you fear failure not because you want to become a dentist.

People have wants and goals and ideas not dreams.

AVGWarhawk · 10-02-12, 08:27 PM

Comparing apples to oranges when comparing parents and their kids socioeconomic status. Monthly expenditures of people today are much more than their parents endured. Expenditures I'm speaking of are items like cable TV. Cellphones. Internet charges. Quite frankly I spend $400/month on these services. Hard to achieve the dream when your wallet is getting raped monthly by services you need. Daily activity is based on the services. Free TV is basically zero channels that require a set top box to receive the signal. Kids homework is based on internet access. Not to mention buying the hardware to connect the net.

Do the math. 1980:land line per month $9.00 includes long distance.
Computer: huh?

These items enrich our lives but at a cost. The dream scattered because of these wonderful enrichment. The dream is harder to obtain because of these type things but I do believe the dream is obtainable.

Stealhead · 10-02-12, 08:48 PM

That seems like a lot of money for the cells tv and web but the charges must be alot higher up there perhaps.I also only have myself and a super basic plan for my daughter my wife has a business cell.That and we only get basic cable no real big tv viewers here.I just go to my friends for any Sunday Ticket games I want to see.

Anyway what really effects lower class and middle class is the cost of the things you must have/use just to get to work to have any money at all.

10-02-12, 06:24 PM	#2
Cybermat47 Willing Webfooted Beast Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Australia Posts: 5,408 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 23	Oh dear. Well, I don't like to brag or anything, but it looks like Australia's becoming the 'Land of Oppurtunity'. Oh dear. __________________ Historical TWoS Gameplay Guide: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2572620 Historical FotRSU Gameplay Guide: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho....php?p=2713394

10-02-12, 06:51 PM	#9
NeonSamurai Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Socialist Republic of Kanadia Posts: 3,044 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Pretty simple actually, you can do it from tax return data. Look at what the parents made, then look at what their kids make. With census data and other stuff you can build a pretty decent picture of a family's socioeconomic status. Anyhow I don't think the American dream was ever true to be frank. More a mythology that is effective in keeping the lower classes working, by convincing them if they work hard enough they can make it. Problem is almost all of them are very hard working (many I know personally often work 3 jobs or more 12-14 hour days, 7 days a week). We like to think that those people on the bottom deserve their fate, they are lazy freeloaders and don't try hard enough. Nothing could be further from the truth in most cases, they just don't have any chance and never did. __________________ SH3 Newbie Guide Links and other helpfull stuff

10-02-12, 07:08 PM	#11
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	I just want to make enough to eat, love my wife, and not have to worry about tomorrow. Sounds alot like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness. Americans seek security. But what we have is uncertainty, as we have all our wealth flowing upwards. Most of us, worry about our jobs, or we lose vacations and sick days, so the boss can get a raise.... Thank goodness, I am in one of the few professions that cannot be outsourced. Don't mean they do not strip us to barebones benefits in the process. I shoulda became a government worker,dammit I had my chance too...They never gave back, they always took more, while we all took less in sacrifice to the bad economy. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

10-02-12, 07:50 PM	#12
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	If more and more of the national wealth is accumulated in few and fewer hands, then this means problem in any country, no matter which political and economical system it runs by. There is also a problem of increasing power in few hands, and collapsing checks and balances. Money is influence, money actively creates opportunity to bypass checks and balances, and rules. The system gets eroded from inner self-dynamics. It is said that everything that exists, already carries the germ of its own destruction within itself. Its true, I think. Wealth increasingly accumulating at the top creates self-dynamic accumulation effects from generation to generation. The problem worsens constantly. The debt crisis is an expression of that, and on multiple levels. Every nation has its founding myths by which it runs and to which it's self-assessment returns when it meets trouble. Like a child meeting something frightening and then runs home to mama. In modern Germany there are two such myths: that all people must be made equal (not equal chances or equal rights, but must be made equal) and that Germany must dissolve to unite all Europe into one Germany-less entity. In America it is the fairy tale of from-rags-to-riches and melting pot. It seems to me for every little detail that supports any of these, there are a dozen details that contradict them, and every single case where an individual's life reflects these myths, there are a hundred or more, who lose, or fail to function according to the myth's definition or expectation. And the scissor opens wider and wider. Capitalism seeks monopolism, and interest-based money lending increases circulating ammount of money without that additional money being covered by a matching increase in real value. Which inevitably runs the constant devaluation of money due to rich people saving money, and make profit from lending it. That money is either uncovered by real value, or is missing where it is needed - amongst those who are not rich. So they must borrow. The rich have, and become richer, the poor have not, and loose even more. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-02-12, 08:48 PM	#15
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	That seems like a lot of money for the cells tv and web but the charges must be alot higher up there perhaps.I also only have myself and a super basic plan for my daughter my wife has a business cell.That and we only get basic cable no real big tv viewers here.I just go to my friends for any Sunday Ticket games I want to see. Anyway what really effects lower class and middle class is the cost of the things you must have/use just to get to work to have any money at all. Last edited by Stealhead; 10-02-12 at 09:08 PM.

10-02-12, 06:32 PM	#3
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Well...it IS called a 'dream', and not everyones dreams come true. In fact, it's a pretty rare event. Honestly though, compared to other nations, Americans, even those at the lower end of the scale, still have it damn good. To an Afghani, Somalian or Mexican, America is still the place of 'The American Dream', even a Harlem slum would be (just about) better than a house in Kabul, and your chances of being killed on the way to the shops are marginally less in Harlem...only marginally though. It's population shift, people will always look for somewhere that is better than where they are, be it inside their own country or, if they are able to, outside of their country. After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

10-02-12, 06:43 PM	#6
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,803 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	*"The life chances of a young US citizen are more dependent on the income and education of his parents than in any other advanced industrial country for which there is data"* What data? I really dont see how anyone can messure that with any degree of accuracy..

10-02-12, 06:48 PM	#8
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Not every American share the same dream. To some, having a 4 slice toaster is living the dream. I guess the article is under the assumption that everyone has the dream of home ownership or something of that nature. It is not entirely true. My one coworker has no desire to own a home. Riches are not always a dream.

10-02-12, 08:27 PM	#14
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Comparing apples to oranges when comparing parents and their kids socioeconomic status. Monthly expenditures of people today are much more than their parents endured. Expenditures I'm speaking of are items like cable TV. Cellphones. Internet charges. Quite frankly I spend $400/month on these services. Hard to achieve the dream when your wallet is getting raped monthly by services you need. Daily activity is based on the services. Free TV is basically zero channels that require a set top box to receive the signal. Kids homework is based on internet access. Not to mention buying the hardware to connect the net. Do the math. 1980:land line per month $9.00 includes long distance. Computer: huh? These items enrich our lives but at a cost. The dream scattered because of these wonderful enrichment. The dream is harder to obtain because of these type things but I do believe the dream is obtainable.